Premature 30 minute observations of 4.2 AvA

IxSTALKERxI · October 2018

LeifErickson wrote: »

Sorry I missed this post. I think you should make more videos of those kind of fights because it would be really interesting to see especially if you are only using 4 people and are blowing up good groups.

But a stealth bomb really has no skill to it at all. This was proven when literally any player in the game could put on the original mageblade bomb build and wipe large amounts of people instantly. It would still be interesting to watch but a more drawn out fight where both sides are actively fighting (not one side just getting ganked) would be great to see in full.

Yeah. I never get round to editing vids haha, I like don't record much either so I have to get footage from guildies.

Here are some fights from opponents fighting us. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/301878873?t=01h59m46s The stam warden in our group didn't have harmony on, but even so because the damage is off coodown it doesn't really need to hit hard to do good burst overall.

First part of this next video was a harmony emperor gravity crush. (Don't watch the rest of it though we got exposed.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OuMhY3oWvw

ShadowProc · October 2018

So now zerg surfing is what we balance around. LMAO. Now I have seen it all.

zyk · October 2018

Ixtyr wrote: »

Reducing Rapids' cost would basically just benefit smaller groups where you're naturally needing to build a more well-rounded spec.

Another potential solution should just be to use other skills built into certain toolkits that provide its benefits anyway (ie. Double Take for Nightblades), but not all classes have as easy of access to such things, and everyone shouldn't be forced into speccing Vampire to get some mobility (although Race Against Time from Psijic is a pretty dope-yet-underutilized skill, and more people should be using it).

The discussion around "should Rapids' cost be reduced" really should be more focused around whether it'd help empower newer/less organized/less experienced guild groups. If you make it easier for a group that doesn't have a consistent, static roster of people with defined/assigned roles and builds to maintain a minimum level of mobility, that might help them to actually stand a chance in more fights so their members don't get discouraged and log out after they keep getting repeatedly annihilated.

Happens all the time, used to happen to me when I led other guilds before getting involved with VE/Omni that didn't have the same quality of play. You wipe 3-4x to an enemy group, your members are feeling bad, you as a raid lead know you can't really do much about it because they've got your number at the moment, and you don't want those players to log out and make the situation for everyone else even worse, so you do one of two things:
Go PvDoor some *** to get a quick win and build some momentum and positive vibes, or

Find the other good group on the map and follow them around and soak up the easy wins.

Nobody really seems to like when either of those things happen - so fix the issues with in-between groups. The groups that are more organized than your standard disheveled pug herder raid, but not at the level of the Dracs or the Omnis or the IL's or the Fantasias, etc.

If ZOS reduced the base cost of Rapids from ~6,500 down to ~4,500-5,000, that wouldn't really hurt existing good groups. It also wouldn't really make them much better than they already are, since they've got people running full-regen dedicated builds for the role anyway and that wouldn't change. And it wouldn't really help solo-ers or small group players that much because Rapids is still a remarkably wasteful skill that serves only one real purpose, and good players will likely want to run more skills that actually serve multiple purposes.

It'd just make it a bit easier for your average, middle-of-the-road guild to compete decently in more fights. And if those guilds start winning more, or feel like they're at least putting up better fights and getting closer to winning more consistently, they might just feel a bit more empowered enough to be willing to break off of the 40+ man faction gloryzerg potatoing into Chalman every night.

This wouldn't be fair for ungrouped players, especially those who are completely solo. And if it were made to be fair to solo players somehow, we're basically back to where we started prior to the comprehensive -- but not comprehensive enough to be fair -- nerf to mobility.

I get it, ball group players. When I learned about the major expedition nerfs, my heart sank. So I understand why it is threatening to suggest it should also be applied to your play style.

So you fight 50 players with 16. Solo players often fight 5+ completely alone. As much as you think you get zerged at Chalman, it doesn't compare to a solo player getting zerged down by 24+. That's like 16v348.

Frankly, it's completely ridiculous to suggest a large group needs mobility more than solo and small group players. IMO, it's the other way around.

What I'm asking for isn't a nerf, it's balance between play styles. I don't see why the large group style should be exempted from the new ZOS vision of combat mobility. What you deal with is basically just a macrocosm of what solo and small group players deal with, except with far more tools available to use at any given time.

frozywozy · October 2018

zyk wrote: »

What I'm asking for isn't a nerf, it's balance between play styles. I don't see why the large group style should be exempted from the new ZOS vision of combat mobility. What you deal with is basically just a macrocosm of what solo and small group players deal with, except with far more tools available to use at any given time.

So you don't think that the recent nerf to forward momentum is the problem and should be looked at? Personally I don't think that we should nerf snares removal. Speed was the issue (speed pots, swift trait).

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · October 2018

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

@frozywozy has a point — nerfing Rapids makes it much harder for the coordinated 16-24 person group to take down the true blob zerg of 30+. Do we really want to give players more incentive to cluster in such enormous groups? We need ball groups so that someone can clear out the blobs.

But that’s just a special case of the point others in this thread have made: efficient access to mobility is necessary at all scales of PVP. It makes no sense for ZOS to decide that only a specific type of group can have efficient access to mobility.

Clearly the solution isn’t to nerf the ball group play style, but to un-nerf small scale. Make Major Expedition an accessible buff again (with necessary adjustments to Swift), or provide general, scale-agnostic adjustments to snares.

Otherwise, like jdking said, many of us just won’t bother to play.

His point is pretty much the saem as everyone's else point: You got nerfed? Adapt, you canYoo bad, don;t nerf the way I play.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

You could survive it solo potentially but as a group when you are fighting in a situation with a lot of pressure lots of siege hitting you and outnumbered not everything is easy to survive. Personally I wouldn't go for exactly that setup but actually it's remarkably easy to wipe groups.

I noticed that when rapids was nerfed there were no cries of "ball groups got nerfed, nerf smallscale!". Now speed pots got nerfed the uproar is quite humorous. Ironically had rapids not been nerfed it wouldn't have been a problem now as smallscalers could still easily use it too.

Equally it's always odd to me why smallscale groups actually care about ball groups in general. Their objectives as groups are fairly different and sure there the "zerging down" part of it but I've seen a fair amount of smallscale groups pug surfing down ball groups too with no qualms.

As for ball groups got buffed. Actually no nothing changed. The only difference is that now solo players won't have perma speed unless they choose to use skills to give it. Similar to how groups choose to use one of their skills as a unit to do it.

The only classes I feel any sympathy for are mag templars/wardens/dks.

Edit: the change I would have made would have been reducing the speed of sprint by the same amount of movement speed on swift. i.e. 10% base movement speed but -10% sprint speed

Frozn didn't mention a faction stack and siege.

That you feel sympathy for half the specs in the game suggests the changes ZOS made were not good and ought to be rethought.

@Joy_Division There are more than 6 specs in the game.
Yes I feel sympathy for the mag classes i mentioned who have been continually nerfed and haven't had access to magicka versions of speed pots but yet managed to play the game without complaining endlessly about speed pots and maneuvers before.

Yes I think that the changes should be rethought, I even gave an example of what I would change instead but you haven't responded to that.

I make my own points here, If you want to reply to Frozn's you can do so.

Also I think its not really a stretch to generalise that a 4m group is going to be more effective at taking out a larger group when they are either:
1) Playing badly / poor players
2) Distracted by other situations
I'm speaking from experience of having wiped certain 24m's with just 3-6 people on NA. I wouldn't expect a group of 4 people to just walk up to a 16m in open field and go GvG with them, (although it could be possible with the right comp and bad enough players)

Blindly calling for nerfing other playstyles because you don't like your own is never the answer imo.

No matter what any you spin it it is unbalanced. I haven't heard one counter of why it is not broken, OP, and unbalanced fir play styles.

Saying no one cried for nerfs before or deflecting how to bring down a ball group in a vacuum is an ACTUAL REASON to how Rapids is balanced for ball groups versus solo/small scale.

Its not broken because it is removed on casting damage or healing thus requiring a high investment by a group in order to keep a good up time. Like with other skills.

Serious question as I dont know. If the healing springs are already casted on the ground does that remove Rapids if it heals your party? I am pretty sure it doesnt and I thought it was wierd how much Drac spams healing springs.

The initial cast of springs drops rapids. Ticks after its cast don't. Springs is used because it is the most efficient and effective 'top up' heal. If you see our recent videos there's a maneuvers group buff view on screen you can clearly see how quickly it drops vs when it's recast.

ShadowProc · October 2018

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

@frozywozy has a point — nerfing Rapids makes it much harder for the coordinated 16-24 person group to take down the true blob zerg of 30+. Do we really want to give players more incentive to cluster in such enormous groups? We need ball groups so that someone can clear out the blobs.

But that’s just a special case of the point others in this thread have made: efficient access to mobility is necessary at all scales of PVP. It makes no sense for ZOS to decide that only a specific type of group can have efficient access to mobility.

Clearly the solution isn’t to nerf the ball group play style, but to un-nerf small scale. Make Major Expedition an accessible buff again (with necessary adjustments to Swift), or provide general, scale-agnostic adjustments to snares.

Otherwise, like jdking said, many of us just won’t bother to play.

His point is pretty much the saem as everyone's else point: You got nerfed? Adapt, you canYoo bad, don;t nerf the way I play.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

You could survive it solo potentially but as a group when you are fighting in a situation with a lot of pressure lots of siege hitting you and outnumbered not everything is easy to survive. Personally I wouldn't go for exactly that setup but actually it's remarkably easy to wipe groups.

I noticed that when rapids was nerfed there were no cries of "ball groups got nerfed, nerf smallscale!". Now speed pots got nerfed the uproar is quite humorous. Ironically had rapids not been nerfed it wouldn't have been a problem now as smallscalers could still easily use it too.

Equally it's always odd to me why smallscale groups actually care about ball groups in general. Their objectives as groups are fairly different and sure there the "zerging down" part of it but I've seen a fair amount of smallscale groups pug surfing down ball groups too with no qualms.

As for ball groups got buffed. Actually no nothing changed. The only difference is that now solo players won't have perma speed unless they choose to use skills to give it. Similar to how groups choose to use one of their skills as a unit to do it.

The only classes I feel any sympathy for are mag templars/wardens/dks.

Edit: the change I would have made would have been reducing the speed of sprint by the same amount of movement speed on swift. i.e. 10% base movement speed but -10% sprint speed

Frozn didn't mention a faction stack and siege.

That you feel sympathy for half the specs in the game suggests the changes ZOS made were not good and ought to be rethought.

@Joy_Division There are more than 6 specs in the game.
Yes I feel sympathy for the mag classes i mentioned who have been continually nerfed and haven't had access to magicka versions of speed pots but yet managed to play the game without complaining endlessly about speed pots and maneuvers before.

Yes I think that the changes should be rethought, I even gave an example of what I would change instead but you haven't responded to that.

I make my own points here, If you want to reply to Frozn's you can do so.

Also I think its not really a stretch to generalise that a 4m group is going to be more effective at taking out a larger group when they are either:
1) Playing badly / poor players
2) Distracted by other situations
I'm speaking from experience of having wiped certain 24m's with just 3-6 people on NA. I wouldn't expect a group of 4 people to just walk up to a 16m in open field and go GvG with them, (although it could be possible with the right comp and bad enough players)

Blindly calling for nerfing other playstyles because you don't like your own is never the answer imo.

No matter what any you spin it it is unbalanced. I haven't heard one counter of why it is not broken, OP, and unbalanced fir play styles.

Saying no one cried for nerfs before or deflecting how to bring down a ball group in a vacuum is an ACTUAL REASON to how Rapids is balanced for ball groups versus solo/small scale.

Its not broken because it is removed on casting damage or healing thus requiring a high investment by a group in order to keep a good up time. Like with other skills.

Serious question as I dont know. If the healing springs are already casted on the ground does that remove Rapids if it heals your party? I am pretty sure it doesnt and I thought it was wierd how much Drac spams healing springs.

The initial cast of springs drops rapids. Ticks after its cast don't. Springs is used because it is the most efficient and effective 'top up' heal. If you see our recent videos there's a maneuvers group buff view on screen you can clearly see how quickly it drops vs when it's recast.

So you are still receiving healing when repositioning and using Rapids spam?

I still stand by it's too strong of ability and this meta. either revert the changes or it needs to be brought in line. Still think it should be capped at 6.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · October 2018

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

@frozywozy has a point — nerfing Rapids makes it much harder for the coordinated 16-24 person group to take down the true blob zerg of 30+. Do we really want to give players more incentive to cluster in such enormous groups? We need ball groups so that someone can clear out the blobs.

But that’s just a special case of the point others in this thread have made: efficient access to mobility is necessary at all scales of PVP. It makes no sense for ZOS to decide that only a specific type of group can have efficient access to mobility.

Clearly the solution isn’t to nerf the ball group play style, but to un-nerf small scale. Make Major Expedition an accessible buff again (with necessary adjustments to Swift), or provide general, scale-agnostic adjustments to snares.

Otherwise, like jdking said, many of us just won’t bother to play.

His point is pretty much the saem as everyone's else point: You got nerfed? Adapt, you canYoo bad, don;t nerf the way I play.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

You could survive it solo potentially but as a group when you are fighting in a situation with a lot of pressure lots of siege hitting you and outnumbered not everything is easy to survive. Personally I wouldn't go for exactly that setup but actually it's remarkably easy to wipe groups.

I noticed that when rapids was nerfed there were no cries of "ball groups got nerfed, nerf smallscale!". Now speed pots got nerfed the uproar is quite humorous. Ironically had rapids not been nerfed it wouldn't have been a problem now as smallscalers could still easily use it too.

Equally it's always odd to me why smallscale groups actually care about ball groups in general. Their objectives as groups are fairly different and sure there the "zerging down" part of it but I've seen a fair amount of smallscale groups pug surfing down ball groups too with no qualms.

As for ball groups got buffed. Actually no nothing changed. The only difference is that now solo players won't have perma speed unless they choose to use skills to give it. Similar to how groups choose to use one of their skills as a unit to do it.

The only classes I feel any sympathy for are mag templars/wardens/dks.

Edit: the change I would have made would have been reducing the speed of sprint by the same amount of movement speed on swift. i.e. 10% base movement speed but -10% sprint speed

Frozn didn't mention a faction stack and siege.

That you feel sympathy for half the specs in the game suggests the changes ZOS made were not good and ought to be rethought.

@Joy_Division There are more than 6 specs in the game.
Yes I feel sympathy for the mag classes i mentioned who have been continually nerfed and haven't had access to magicka versions of speed pots but yet managed to play the game without complaining endlessly about speed pots and maneuvers before.

Yes I think that the changes should be rethought, I even gave an example of what I would change instead but you haven't responded to that.

I make my own points here, If you want to reply to Frozn's you can do so.

Also I think its not really a stretch to generalise that a 4m group is going to be more effective at taking out a larger group when they are either:
1) Playing badly / poor players
2) Distracted by other situations
I'm speaking from experience of having wiped certain 24m's with just 3-6 people on NA. I wouldn't expect a group of 4 people to just walk up to a 16m in open field and go GvG with them, (although it could be possible with the right comp and bad enough players)

Blindly calling for nerfing other playstyles because you don't like your own is never the answer imo.

No matter what any you spin it it is unbalanced. I haven't heard one counter of why it is not broken, OP, and unbalanced fir play styles.

Saying no one cried for nerfs before or deflecting how to bring down a ball group in a vacuum is an ACTUAL REASON to how Rapids is balanced for ball groups versus solo/small scale.

Its not broken because it is removed on casting damage or healing thus requiring a high investment by a group in order to keep a good up time. Like with other skills.

Serious question as I dont know. If the healing springs are already casted on the ground does that remove Rapids if it heals your party? I am pretty sure it doesnt and I thought it was wierd how much Drac spams healing springs.

The initial cast of springs drops rapids. Ticks after its cast don't. Springs is used because it is the most efficient and effective 'top up' heal. If you see our recent videos there's a maneuvers group buff view on screen you can clearly see how quickly it drops vs when it's recast.

So you are still receiving healing when repositioning and using Rapids spam?

I still stand by it's too strong of ability and this meta. either revert the changes or it needs to be brought in line. Still think it should be capped at 6.

In the same way that vigor still heals after its initial cast. Or any other HoT except that they cannot be negated away from you

Joy_Division · October 2018

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

@frozywozy has a point — nerfing Rapids makes it much harder for the coordinated 16-24 person group to take down the true blob zerg of 30+. Do we really want to give players more incentive to cluster in such enormous groups? We need ball groups so that someone can clear out the blobs.

But that’s just a special case of the point others in this thread have made: efficient access to mobility is necessary at all scales of PVP. It makes no sense for ZOS to decide that only a specific type of group can have efficient access to mobility.

Clearly the solution isn’t to nerf the ball group play style, but to un-nerf small scale. Make Major Expedition an accessible buff again (with necessary adjustments to Swift), or provide general, scale-agnostic adjustments to snares.

Otherwise, like jdking said, many of us just won’t bother to play.

His point is pretty much the saem as everyone's else point: You got nerfed? Adapt, you canYoo bad, don;t nerf the way I play.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

You could survive it solo potentially but as a group when you are fighting in a situation with a lot of pressure lots of siege hitting you and outnumbered not everything is easy to survive. Personally I wouldn't go for exactly that setup but actually it's remarkably easy to wipe groups.

I noticed that when rapids was nerfed there were no cries of "ball groups got nerfed, nerf smallscale!". Now speed pots got nerfed the uproar is quite humorous. Ironically had rapids not been nerfed it wouldn't have been a problem now as smallscalers could still easily use it too.

Equally it's always odd to me why smallscale groups actually care about ball groups in general. Their objectives as groups are fairly different and sure there the "zerging down" part of it but I've seen a fair amount of smallscale groups pug surfing down ball groups too with no qualms.

As for ball groups got buffed. Actually no nothing changed. The only difference is that now solo players won't have perma speed unless they choose to use skills to give it. Similar to how groups choose to use one of their skills as a unit to do it.

The only classes I feel any sympathy for are mag templars/wardens/dks.

Edit: the change I would have made would have been reducing the speed of sprint by the same amount of movement speed on swift. i.e. 10% base movement speed but -10% sprint speed

Frozn didn't mention a faction stack and siege.

That you feel sympathy for half the specs in the game suggests the changes ZOS made were not good and ought to be rethought.

@Joy_Division There are more than 6 specs in the game.
Yes I feel sympathy for the mag classes i mentioned who have been continually nerfed and haven't had access to magicka versions of speed pots but yet managed to play the game without complaining endlessly about speed pots and maneuvers before.

Yes I think that the changes should be rethought, I even gave an example of what I would change instead but you haven't responded to that.

I make my own points here, If you want to reply to Frozn's you can do so.

Also I think its not really a stretch to generalise that a 4m group is going to be more effective at taking out a larger group when they are either:
1) Playing badly / poor players
2) Distracted by other situations
I'm speaking from experience of having wiped certain 24m's with just 3-6 people on NA. I wouldn't expect a group of 4 people to just walk up to a 16m in open field and go GvG with them, (although it could be possible with the right comp and bad enough players)

Blindly calling for nerfing other playstyles because you don't like your own is never the answer imo.

Ah yes, you do like to make your own points that bring up different scenarios than the one you are responding too.

It's nice that you think 3-6 people can zerg-surf and potentially wipe a an enemy raid that is either distracted or is being sieged or whatever other circumstance, but that is at best tangential to the issue of how speed and mobility have been changed in this update.

There is discussion here, not everyone in the thread is not calling for blind nerfs.

Ultimately what you or I say is not going to have much effect here. Those people who hated the Expedition nerfs fought tooth and nail and ZOS didn't budge one single bit. If they are of the opinion that Rapids needs to be adjusted, then ZOS is going to do it.

frozywozy · October 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

@frozywozy has a point — nerfing Rapids makes it much harder for the coordinated 16-24 person group to take down the true blob zerg of 30+. Do we really want to give players more incentive to cluster in such enormous groups? We need ball groups so that someone can clear out the blobs.

But that’s just a special case of the point others in this thread have made: efficient access to mobility is necessary at all scales of PVP. It makes no sense for ZOS to decide that only a specific type of group can have efficient access to mobility.

Clearly the solution isn’t to nerf the ball group play style, but to un-nerf small scale. Make Major Expedition an accessible buff again (with necessary adjustments to Swift), or provide general, scale-agnostic adjustments to snares.

Otherwise, like jdking said, many of us just won’t bother to play.

His point is pretty much the saem as everyone's else point: You got nerfed? Adapt, you canYoo bad, don;t nerf the way I play.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

You could survive it solo potentially but as a group when you are fighting in a situation with a lot of pressure lots of siege hitting you and outnumbered not everything is easy to survive. Personally I wouldn't go for exactly that setup but actually it's remarkably easy to wipe groups.

I noticed that when rapids was nerfed there were no cries of "ball groups got nerfed, nerf smallscale!". Now speed pots got nerfed the uproar is quite humorous. Ironically had rapids not been nerfed it wouldn't have been a problem now as smallscalers could still easily use it too.

Equally it's always odd to me why smallscale groups actually care about ball groups in general. Their objectives as groups are fairly different and sure there the "zerging down" part of it but I've seen a fair amount of smallscale groups pug surfing down ball groups too with no qualms.

As for ball groups got buffed. Actually no nothing changed. The only difference is that now solo players won't have perma speed unless they choose to use skills to give it. Similar to how groups choose to use one of their skills as a unit to do it.

The only classes I feel any sympathy for are mag templars/wardens/dks.

Edit: the change I would have made would have been reducing the speed of sprint by the same amount of movement speed on swift. i.e. 10% base movement speed but -10% sprint speed

Frozn didn't mention a faction stack and siege.

That you feel sympathy for half the specs in the game suggests the changes ZOS made were not good and ought to be rethought.

@Joy_Division There are more than 6 specs in the game.
Yes I feel sympathy for the mag classes i mentioned who have been continually nerfed and haven't had access to magicka versions of speed pots but yet managed to play the game without complaining endlessly about speed pots and maneuvers before.

Yes I think that the changes should be rethought, I even gave an example of what I would change instead but you haven't responded to that.

I make my own points here, If you want to reply to Frozn's you can do so.

Also I think its not really a stretch to generalise that a 4m group is going to be more effective at taking out a larger group when they are either:
1) Playing badly / poor players
2) Distracted by other situations
I'm speaking from experience of having wiped certain 24m's with just 3-6 people on NA. I wouldn't expect a group of 4 people to just walk up to a 16m in open field and go GvG with them, (although it could be possible with the right comp and bad enough players)

Blindly calling for nerfing other playstyles because you don't like your own is never the answer imo.

Ah yes, you do like to make your own points that bring up different scenarios than the one you are responding too.

It's nice that you think 3-6 people can zerg-surf and potentially wipe a an enemy raid that is either distracted or is being sieged or whatever other circumstance, but that is at best tangential to the issue of how speed and mobility have been changed in this update.

There is discussion here, not everyone in the thread is not calling for blind nerfs.

Ultimately what you or I say is not going to have much effect here. Those people who hated the Expedition nerfs fought tooth and nail and ZOS didn't budge one single bit. If they are of the opinion that Rapids needs to be adjusted, then ZOS is going to do it.

I am not sure about what you just said but let me ask you this simple question.
Do you think that snares need to be buffed and their counters diminished for all play styles in Cyrodiil ?

Sandman929 · October 2018

zyk wrote: »

I get it, ball group players. When I learned about the major expedition nerfs, my heart sank. So I understand why it is threatening to suggest it should also be applied to your play style.

Most people aren't asking for similar nerfs to the Major Expedition provided by Rapid Maneuvers, because Rapids already drops off very quickly in a fight if a group doesn't have adequate support. What most people are asking for is basically the removal of a support role in PvP by reducing the effectiveness of group buffs via arbitrary target caps and other means that have nothing to do with the duration of Major Expedition (which is what the other changes target).
It looks pretty petty, and based on the changes of Murkmire it doesn't seem to be in line with the changes ZOS wanted. High uptime on Major Expedition was easy with very little effort, and that's what got changed. High uptime on Major Expedition with the dedicated effort of a group member devoted to supplying it seems to fit the changes ZOS wanted.

Joy_Division · October 2018

frozywozy wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

@frozywozy has a point — nerfing Rapids makes it much harder for the coordinated 16-24 person group to take down the true blob zerg of 30+. Do we really want to give players more incentive to cluster in such enormous groups? We need ball groups so that someone can clear out the blobs.

But that’s just a special case of the point others in this thread have made: efficient access to mobility is necessary at all scales of PVP. It makes no sense for ZOS to decide that only a specific type of group can have efficient access to mobility.

Clearly the solution isn’t to nerf the ball group play style, but to un-nerf small scale. Make Major Expedition an accessible buff again (with necessary adjustments to Swift), or provide general, scale-agnostic adjustments to snares.

Otherwise, like jdking said, many of us just won’t bother to play.

His point is pretty much the saem as everyone's else point: You got nerfed? Adapt, you canYoo bad, don;t nerf the way I play.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

You could survive it solo potentially but as a group when you are fighting in a situation with a lot of pressure lots of siege hitting you and outnumbered not everything is easy to survive. Personally I wouldn't go for exactly that setup but actually it's remarkably easy to wipe groups.

I noticed that when rapids was nerfed there were no cries of "ball groups got nerfed, nerf smallscale!". Now speed pots got nerfed the uproar is quite humorous. Ironically had rapids not been nerfed it wouldn't have been a problem now as smallscalers could still easily use it too.

Equally it's always odd to me why smallscale groups actually care about ball groups in general. Their objectives as groups are fairly different and sure there the "zerging down" part of it but I've seen a fair amount of smallscale groups pug surfing down ball groups too with no qualms.

As for ball groups got buffed. Actually no nothing changed. The only difference is that now solo players won't have perma speed unless they choose to use skills to give it. Similar to how groups choose to use one of their skills as a unit to do it.

The only classes I feel any sympathy for are mag templars/wardens/dks.

Edit: the change I would have made would have been reducing the speed of sprint by the same amount of movement speed on swift. i.e. 10% base movement speed but -10% sprint speed

Frozn didn't mention a faction stack and siege.

That you feel sympathy for half the specs in the game suggests the changes ZOS made were not good and ought to be rethought.

@Joy_Division There are more than 6 specs in the game.
Yes I feel sympathy for the mag classes i mentioned who have been continually nerfed and haven't had access to magicka versions of speed pots but yet managed to play the game without complaining endlessly about speed pots and maneuvers before.

Yes I think that the changes should be rethought, I even gave an example of what I would change instead but you haven't responded to that.

I make my own points here, If you want to reply to Frozn's you can do so.

Also I think its not really a stretch to generalise that a 4m group is going to be more effective at taking out a larger group when they are either:
1) Playing badly / poor players
2) Distracted by other situations
I'm speaking from experience of having wiped certain 24m's with just 3-6 people on NA. I wouldn't expect a group of 4 people to just walk up to a 16m in open field and go GvG with them, (although it could be possible with the right comp and bad enough players)

Blindly calling for nerfing other playstyles because you don't like your own is never the answer imo.

Ah yes, you do like to make your own points that bring up different scenarios than the one you are responding too.

It's nice that you think 3-6 people can zerg-surf and potentially wipe a an enemy raid that is either distracted or is being sieged or whatever other circumstance, but that is at best tangential to the issue of how speed and mobility have been changed in this update.

There is discussion here, not everyone in the thread is not calling for blind nerfs.

Ultimately what you or I say is not going to have much effect here. Those people who hated the Expedition nerfs fought tooth and nail and ZOS didn't budge one single bit. If they are of the opinion that Rapids needs to be adjusted, then ZOS is going to do it.

I am not sure about what you just said but let me ask you this simple question.
Do you think that snares need to be buffed and their counters diminished for all play styles in Cyrodiil ?

The last thing that needs to happen is for snares to be buffed or counters to them to be diminished.

What I would like to see happen is for ALL players and playstyles to have reasonable accessible sources of speed and mobility, as it was before Murkmire

Ixtyr · October 2018

.

Joy_Division wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

@frozywozy has a point — nerfing Rapids makes it much harder for the coordinated 16-24 person group to take down the true blob zerg of 30+. Do we really want to give players more incentive to cluster in such enormous groups? We need ball groups so that someone can clear out the blobs.

But that’s just a special case of the point others in this thread have made: efficient access to mobility is necessary at all scales of PVP. It makes no sense for ZOS to decide that only a specific type of group can have efficient access to mobility.

Clearly the solution isn’t to nerf the ball group play style, but to un-nerf small scale. Make Major Expedition an accessible buff again (with necessary adjustments to Swift), or provide general, scale-agnostic adjustments to snares.

Otherwise, like jdking said, many of us just won’t bother to play.

His point is pretty much the saem as everyone's else point: You got nerfed? Adapt, you canYoo bad, don;t nerf the way I play.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

You could survive it solo potentially but as a group when you are fighting in a situation with a lot of pressure lots of siege hitting you and outnumbered not everything is easy to survive. Personally I wouldn't go for exactly that setup but actually it's remarkably easy to wipe groups.

I noticed that when rapids was nerfed there were no cries of "ball groups got nerfed, nerf smallscale!". Now speed pots got nerfed the uproar is quite humorous. Ironically had rapids not been nerfed it wouldn't have been a problem now as smallscalers could still easily use it too.

Equally it's always odd to me why smallscale groups actually care about ball groups in general. Their objectives as groups are fairly different and sure there the "zerging down" part of it but I've seen a fair amount of smallscale groups pug surfing down ball groups too with no qualms.

As for ball groups got buffed. Actually no nothing changed. The only difference is that now solo players won't have perma speed unless they choose to use skills to give it. Similar to how groups choose to use one of their skills as a unit to do it.

The only classes I feel any sympathy for are mag templars/wardens/dks.

Edit: the change I would have made would have been reducing the speed of sprint by the same amount of movement speed on swift. i.e. 10% base movement speed but -10% sprint speed

Frozn didn't mention a faction stack and siege.

That you feel sympathy for half the specs in the game suggests the changes ZOS made were not good and ought to be rethought.

@Joy_Division There are more than 6 specs in the game.
Yes I feel sympathy for the mag classes i mentioned who have been continually nerfed and haven't had access to magicka versions of speed pots but yet managed to play the game without complaining endlessly about speed pots and maneuvers before.

Yes I think that the changes should be rethought, I even gave an example of what I would change instead but you haven't responded to that.

I make my own points here, If you want to reply to Frozn's you can do so.

Also I think its not really a stretch to generalise that a 4m group is going to be more effective at taking out a larger group when they are either:
1) Playing badly / poor players
2) Distracted by other situations
I'm speaking from experience of having wiped certain 24m's with just 3-6 people on NA. I wouldn't expect a group of 4 people to just walk up to a 16m in open field and go GvG with them, (although it could be possible with the right comp and bad enough players)

Blindly calling for nerfing other playstyles because you don't like your own is never the answer imo.

Ah yes, you do like to make your own points that bring up different scenarios than the one you are responding too.

It's nice that you think 3-6 people can zerg-surf and potentially wipe a an enemy raid that is either distracted or is being sieged or whatever other circumstance, but that is at best tangential to the issue of how speed and mobility have been changed in this update.

There is discussion here, not everyone in the thread is not calling for blind nerfs.

Ultimately what you or I say is not going to have much effect here. Those people who hated the Expedition nerfs fought tooth and nail and ZOS didn't budge one single bit. If they are of the opinion that Rapids needs to be adjusted, then ZOS is going to do it.

I am not sure about what you just said but let me ask you this simple question.
Do you think that snares need to be buffed and their counters diminished for all play styles in Cyrodiil ?

The last thing that needs to happen is for snares to be buffed or counters to them to be diminished.

What I would like to see happen is for ALL players and playstyles to have reasonable accessible sources of speed and mobility, as it was before Murkmire

I mean, Race Against Time is an option, no?

Joy_Division · October 2018

Ixtyr wrote: »

.

Joy_Division wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

@frozywozy has a point — nerfing Rapids makes it much harder for the coordinated 16-24 person group to take down the true blob zerg of 30+. Do we really want to give players more incentive to cluster in such enormous groups? We need ball groups so that someone can clear out the blobs.

But that’s just a special case of the point others in this thread have made: efficient access to mobility is necessary at all scales of PVP. It makes no sense for ZOS to decide that only a specific type of group can have efficient access to mobility.

Clearly the solution isn’t to nerf the ball group play style, but to un-nerf small scale. Make Major Expedition an accessible buff again (with necessary adjustments to Swift), or provide general, scale-agnostic adjustments to snares.

Otherwise, like jdking said, many of us just won’t bother to play.

His point is pretty much the saem as everyone's else point: You got nerfed? Adapt, you canYoo bad, don;t nerf the way I play.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

You could survive it solo potentially but as a group when you are fighting in a situation with a lot of pressure lots of siege hitting you and outnumbered not everything is easy to survive. Personally I wouldn't go for exactly that setup but actually it's remarkably easy to wipe groups.

I noticed that when rapids was nerfed there were no cries of "ball groups got nerfed, nerf smallscale!". Now speed pots got nerfed the uproar is quite humorous. Ironically had rapids not been nerfed it wouldn't have been a problem now as smallscalers could still easily use it too.

Equally it's always odd to me why smallscale groups actually care about ball groups in general. Their objectives as groups are fairly different and sure there the "zerging down" part of it but I've seen a fair amount of smallscale groups pug surfing down ball groups too with no qualms.

As for ball groups got buffed. Actually no nothing changed. The only difference is that now solo players won't have perma speed unless they choose to use skills to give it. Similar to how groups choose to use one of their skills as a unit to do it.

The only classes I feel any sympathy for are mag templars/wardens/dks.

Edit: the change I would have made would have been reducing the speed of sprint by the same amount of movement speed on swift. i.e. 10% base movement speed but -10% sprint speed

Frozn didn't mention a faction stack and siege.

That you feel sympathy for half the specs in the game suggests the changes ZOS made were not good and ought to be rethought.

@Joy_Division There are more than 6 specs in the game.
Yes I feel sympathy for the mag classes i mentioned who have been continually nerfed and haven't had access to magicka versions of speed pots but yet managed to play the game without complaining endlessly about speed pots and maneuvers before.

Yes I think that the changes should be rethought, I even gave an example of what I would change instead but you haven't responded to that.

I make my own points here, If you want to reply to Frozn's you can do so.

Also I think its not really a stretch to generalise that a 4m group is going to be more effective at taking out a larger group when they are either:
1) Playing badly / poor players
2) Distracted by other situations
I'm speaking from experience of having wiped certain 24m's with just 3-6 people on NA. I wouldn't expect a group of 4 people to just walk up to a 16m in open field and go GvG with them, (although it could be possible with the right comp and bad enough players)

Blindly calling for nerfing other playstyles because you don't like your own is never the answer imo.

Ah yes, you do like to make your own points that bring up different scenarios than the one you are responding too.

It's nice that you think 3-6 people can zerg-surf and potentially wipe a an enemy raid that is either distracted or is being sieged or whatever other circumstance, but that is at best tangential to the issue of how speed and mobility have been changed in this update.

There is discussion here, not everyone in the thread is not calling for blind nerfs.

Ultimately what you or I say is not going to have much effect here. Those people who hated the Expedition nerfs fought tooth and nail and ZOS didn't budge one single bit. If they are of the opinion that Rapids needs to be adjusted, then ZOS is going to do it.

I am not sure about what you just said but let me ask you this simple question.
Do you think that snares need to be buffed and their counters diminished for all play styles in Cyrodiil ?

The last thing that needs to happen is for snares to be buffed or counters to them to be diminished.

What I would like to see happen is for ALL players and playstyles to have reasonable accessible sources of speed and mobility, as it was before Murkmire

I mean, Race Against Time is an option, no?

A skill that I have to slot and spam every 3 seconds is not in the same category. If it was, people would not have cared what ZOS did with speed pots, boundless Storm, or other sources of major expedition.

Ixtyr · October 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ixtyr wrote: »

.

Joy_Division wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

@frozywozy has a point — nerfing Rapids makes it much harder for the coordinated 16-24 person group to take down the true blob zerg of 30+. Do we really want to give players more incentive to cluster in such enormous groups? We need ball groups so that someone can clear out the blobs.

But that’s just a special case of the point others in this thread have made: efficient access to mobility is necessary at all scales of PVP. It makes no sense for ZOS to decide that only a specific type of group can have efficient access to mobility.

Clearly the solution isn’t to nerf the ball group play style, but to un-nerf small scale. Make Major Expedition an accessible buff again (with necessary adjustments to Swift), or provide general, scale-agnostic adjustments to snares.

Otherwise, like jdking said, many of us just won’t bother to play.

His point is pretty much the saem as everyone's else point: You got nerfed? Adapt, you canYoo bad, don;t nerf the way I play.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

You could survive it solo potentially but as a group when you are fighting in a situation with a lot of pressure lots of siege hitting you and outnumbered not everything is easy to survive. Personally I wouldn't go for exactly that setup but actually it's remarkably easy to wipe groups.

I noticed that when rapids was nerfed there were no cries of "ball groups got nerfed, nerf smallscale!". Now speed pots got nerfed the uproar is quite humorous. Ironically had rapids not been nerfed it wouldn't have been a problem now as smallscalers could still easily use it too.

Equally it's always odd to me why smallscale groups actually care about ball groups in general. Their objectives as groups are fairly different and sure there the "zerging down" part of it but I've seen a fair amount of smallscale groups pug surfing down ball groups too with no qualms.

As for ball groups got buffed. Actually no nothing changed. The only difference is that now solo players won't have perma speed unless they choose to use skills to give it. Similar to how groups choose to use one of their skills as a unit to do it.

The only classes I feel any sympathy for are mag templars/wardens/dks.

Edit: the change I would have made would have been reducing the speed of sprint by the same amount of movement speed on swift. i.e. 10% base movement speed but -10% sprint speed

Frozn didn't mention a faction stack and siege.

That you feel sympathy for half the specs in the game suggests the changes ZOS made were not good and ought to be rethought.

@Joy_Division There are more than 6 specs in the game.
Yes I feel sympathy for the mag classes i mentioned who have been continually nerfed and haven't had access to magicka versions of speed pots but yet managed to play the game without complaining endlessly about speed pots and maneuvers before.

Yes I think that the changes should be rethought, I even gave an example of what I would change instead but you haven't responded to that.

I make my own points here, If you want to reply to Frozn's you can do so.

Also I think its not really a stretch to generalise that a 4m group is going to be more effective at taking out a larger group when they are either:
1) Playing badly / poor players
2) Distracted by other situations
I'm speaking from experience of having wiped certain 24m's with just 3-6 people on NA. I wouldn't expect a group of 4 people to just walk up to a 16m in open field and go GvG with them, (although it could be possible with the right comp and bad enough players)

Blindly calling for nerfing other playstyles because you don't like your own is never the answer imo.

Ah yes, you do like to make your own points that bring up different scenarios than the one you are responding too.

It's nice that you think 3-6 people can zerg-surf and potentially wipe a an enemy raid that is either distracted or is being sieged or whatever other circumstance, but that is at best tangential to the issue of how speed and mobility have been changed in this update.

There is discussion here, not everyone in the thread is not calling for blind nerfs.

Ultimately what you or I say is not going to have much effect here. Those people who hated the Expedition nerfs fought tooth and nail and ZOS didn't budge one single bit. If they are of the opinion that Rapids needs to be adjusted, then ZOS is going to do it.

I am not sure about what you just said but let me ask you this simple question.
Do you think that snares need to be buffed and their counters diminished for all play styles in Cyrodiil ?

The last thing that needs to happen is for snares to be buffed or counters to them to be diminished.

What I would like to see happen is for ALL players and playstyles to have reasonable accessible sources of speed and mobility, as it was before Murkmire

I mean, Race Against Time is an option, no?

A skill that I have to slot and spam every 3 seconds is not in the same category. If it was, people would not have cared what ZOS did with speed pots, boundless Storm, or other sources of major expedition.

What if it was 5s, not 3s?

ShadowProc · October 2018

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

@frozywozy has a point — nerfing Rapids makes it much harder for the coordinated 16-24 person group to take down the true blob zerg of 30+. Do we really want to give players more incentive to cluster in such enormous groups? We need ball groups so that someone can clear out the blobs.

But that’s just a special case of the point others in this thread have made: efficient access to mobility is necessary at all scales of PVP. It makes no sense for ZOS to decide that only a specific type of group can have efficient access to mobility.

Clearly the solution isn’t to nerf the ball group play style, but to un-nerf small scale. Make Major Expedition an accessible buff again (with necessary adjustments to Swift), or provide general, scale-agnostic adjustments to snares.

Otherwise, like jdking said, many of us just won’t bother to play.

His point is pretty much the saem as everyone's else point: You got nerfed? Adapt, you canYoo bad, don;t nerf the way I play.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

You could survive it solo potentially but as a group when you are fighting in a situation with a lot of pressure lots of siege hitting you and outnumbered not everything is easy to survive. Personally I wouldn't go for exactly that setup but actually it's remarkably easy to wipe groups.

I noticed that when rapids was nerfed there were no cries of "ball groups got nerfed, nerf smallscale!". Now speed pots got nerfed the uproar is quite humorous. Ironically had rapids not been nerfed it wouldn't have been a problem now as smallscalers could still easily use it too.

Equally it's always odd to me why smallscale groups actually care about ball groups in general. Their objectives as groups are fairly different and sure there the "zerging down" part of it but I've seen a fair amount of smallscale groups pug surfing down ball groups too with no qualms.

As for ball groups got buffed. Actually no nothing changed. The only difference is that now solo players won't have perma speed unless they choose to use skills to give it. Similar to how groups choose to use one of their skills as a unit to do it.

The only classes I feel any sympathy for are mag templars/wardens/dks.

Edit: the change I would have made would have been reducing the speed of sprint by the same amount of movement speed on swift. i.e. 10% base movement speed but -10% sprint speed

Frozn didn't mention a faction stack and siege.

That you feel sympathy for half the specs in the game suggests the changes ZOS made were not good and ought to be rethought.

@Joy_Division There are more than 6 specs in the game.
Yes I feel sympathy for the mag classes i mentioned who have been continually nerfed and haven't had access to magicka versions of speed pots but yet managed to play the game without complaining endlessly about speed pots and maneuvers before.

Yes I think that the changes should be rethought, I even gave an example of what I would change instead but you haven't responded to that.

I make my own points here, If you want to reply to Frozn's you can do so.

Also I think its not really a stretch to generalise that a 4m group is going to be more effective at taking out a larger group when they are either:
1) Playing badly / poor players
2) Distracted by other situations
I'm speaking from experience of having wiped certain 24m's with just 3-6 people on NA. I wouldn't expect a group of 4 people to just walk up to a 16m in open field and go GvG with them, (although it could be possible with the right comp and bad enough players)

Blindly calling for nerfing other playstyles because you don't like your own is never the answer imo.

No matter what any you spin it it is unbalanced. I haven't heard one counter of why it is not broken, OP, and unbalanced fir play styles.

Saying no one cried for nerfs before or deflecting how to bring down a ball group in a vacuum is an ACTUAL REASON to how Rapids is balanced for ball groups versus solo/small scale.

Its not broken because it is removed on casting damage or healing thus requiring a high investment by a group in order to keep a good up time. Like with other skills.

Serious question as I dont know. If the healing springs are already casted on the ground does that remove Rapids if it heals your party? I am pretty sure it doesnt and I thought it was wierd how much Drac spams healing springs.

The initial cast of springs drops rapids. Ticks after its cast don't. Springs is used because it is the most efficient and effective 'top up' heal. If you see our recent videos there's a maneuvers group buff view on screen you can clearly see how quickly it drops vs when it's recast.

So you are still receiving healing when repositioning and using Rapids spam?

I still stand by it's too strong of ability and this meta. either revert the changes or it needs to be brought in line. Still think it should be capped at 6.

In the same way that vigor still heals after its initial cast. Or any other HoT except that they cannot be negated away from you

I understand that. But you and I think Frozn said it was balanced because it was removed by heals and damage.

Seems like just damage. With the amount of healing springs I see you guys using constantly, yo I cannot claim you are not receiving hing while repositioning.

To be fair that's the way it should be. Would be dumb if you couldn't heal while retreating.

However, should be capped at 6 or 8 at the most. Way to OP now that all other sources of speed got nerfed. Why should larger groups get more speed and snare total immunity?

I know it suits that playstyle. Been there done that. But now I see the small scale side of it. Very discouraging.

CyrusArya · October 2018

frozywozy wrote: »

No. All it takes is another similar group to bring the same challenge. Something we have been doing in organized GvGs for quite some time now. The reason the conversation got into zerg surfing was because some zerg surfers were complaining about how OP ballgroups are and how they need to be nerfed. Next time you get into a thread of 3pages, I suggest that you read a bit before you jump to conclusions after reading the post of one player you dislike.

Oh I didn’t jump to any conclusions man. I don’t dislike you, and I’m strictly reacting to the rhetoric here. I believe the conversation was about how rapids is op, and how it’s bs that mobility got nerfed everywhere but rapids didn’t get touched. A point I strongly agree with. Zerging in this game is easy enough as is, and every patch ZOS cracks down on small scale while empowering zergs and ball groups.

This is yet another example.

You’re the one who brought up how easy it is to counter ball groups and derailed the conversation. The initial point of conversation was that solo and small scale lost mobility but zerg balls did not. And the truth is if small scale can adapt to lower mobility then ball group gameplay which is much easier absolutely can too.

caeliusstarbreaker · October 2018

If 3-6 players inside 50 players wipe a “ball group”...wouldn’t it stand to reason that 53-56 players killed the “ball group?”

Personally I think snares should only be on ground targeted aoe abilities that do minimal dmg and main focus is applying snare to area. For area control and bottle necking. I subscribe to that even more so now with speed and mobility changes. Snares are way too rampant, they are important, but shouldn’t be so widely accessible. Leveraging distance should be a crucial part of gameplay as well.

There are more than enough secondary effects in the game to change up skills.

I’m all for coordinated larger group play, and I understand there is indeed skill necessary to exist in that environment, however as patches have come and gone, the skill necessary... sorry, the risk of existing in that world, has greatly diminished. And that’s because of a combination of many things in the game’s course of life.

(Edited because typos)

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · October 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

@frozywozy has a point — nerfing Rapids makes it much harder for the coordinated 16-24 person group to take down the true blob zerg of 30+. Do we really want to give players more incentive to cluster in such enormous groups? We need ball groups so that someone can clear out the blobs.

But that’s just a special case of the point others in this thread have made: efficient access to mobility is necessary at all scales of PVP. It makes no sense for ZOS to decide that only a specific type of group can have efficient access to mobility.

Clearly the solution isn’t to nerf the ball group play style, but to un-nerf small scale. Make Major Expedition an accessible buff again (with necessary adjustments to Swift), or provide general, scale-agnostic adjustments to snares.

Otherwise, like jdking said, many of us just won’t bother to play.

His point is pretty much the saem as everyone's else point: You got nerfed? Adapt, you canYoo bad, don;t nerf the way I play.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

You could survive it solo potentially but as a group when you are fighting in a situation with a lot of pressure lots of siege hitting you and outnumbered not everything is easy to survive. Personally I wouldn't go for exactly that setup but actually it's remarkably easy to wipe groups.

I noticed that when rapids was nerfed there were no cries of "ball groups got nerfed, nerf smallscale!". Now speed pots got nerfed the uproar is quite humorous. Ironically had rapids not been nerfed it wouldn't have been a problem now as smallscalers could still easily use it too.

Equally it's always odd to me why smallscale groups actually care about ball groups in general. Their objectives as groups are fairly different and sure there the "zerging down" part of it but I've seen a fair amount of smallscale groups pug surfing down ball groups too with no qualms.

As for ball groups got buffed. Actually no nothing changed. The only difference is that now solo players won't have perma speed unless they choose to use skills to give it. Similar to how groups choose to use one of their skills as a unit to do it.

The only classes I feel any sympathy for are mag templars/wardens/dks.

Edit: the change I would have made would have been reducing the speed of sprint by the same amount of movement speed on swift. i.e. 10% base movement speed but -10% sprint speed

Frozn didn't mention a faction stack and siege.

That you feel sympathy for half the specs in the game suggests the changes ZOS made were not good and ought to be rethought.

@Joy_Division There are more than 6 specs in the game.
Yes I feel sympathy for the mag classes i mentioned who have been continually nerfed and haven't had access to magicka versions of speed pots but yet managed to play the game without complaining endlessly about speed pots and maneuvers before.

Yes I think that the changes should be rethought, I even gave an example of what I would change instead but you haven't responded to that.

I make my own points here, If you want to reply to Frozn's you can do so.

Also I think its not really a stretch to generalise that a 4m group is going to be more effective at taking out a larger group when they are either:
1) Playing badly / poor players
2) Distracted by other situations
I'm speaking from experience of having wiped certain 24m's with just 3-6 people on NA. I wouldn't expect a group of 4 people to just walk up to a 16m in open field and go GvG with them, (although it could be possible with the right comp and bad enough players)

Blindly calling for nerfing other playstyles because you don't like your own is never the answer imo.

Ah yes, you do like to make your own points that bring up different scenarios than the one you are responding too.

It's nice that you think 3-6 people can zerg-surf and potentially wipe a an enemy raid that is either distracted or is being sieged or whatever other circumstance, but that is at best tangential to the issue of how speed and mobility have been changed in this update.

There is discussion here, not everyone in the thread is not calling for blind nerfs.

Ultimately what you or I say is not going to have much effect here. Those people who hated the Expedition nerfs fought tooth and nail and ZOS didn't budge one single bit. If they are of the opinion that Rapids needs to be adjusted, then ZOS is going to do it.

I am not sure about what you just said but let me ask you this simple question.
Do you think that snares need to be buffed and their counters diminished for all play styles in Cyrodiil ?

The last thing that needs to happen is for snares to be buffed or counters to them to be diminished.

What I would like to see happen is for ALL players and playstyles to have reasonable accessible sources of speed and mobility, as it was before Murkmire

All players didn't have 'reasonable' access to major expedition or 'mobility' (assuming you mean snare&root prevention) prior to Mirkmire.

Equally the only thing which has changed is buff durations. There has been no addition or removal. Thus looking at the status of other skills in comparison the duration is already reduced by maneuvers existing mechanics.

If the question is whether there should should be more or less immunity then this is a different balancing topic which wasn't the aim of the changes.

If only the players had some way of effectively communicating with ZoS though eh What did you choose for your free house btw?

Also dont think I didnt notice you avoided the question I raised.

Yeah, the "only" thing that has changed is the duration, as if it was such a minor adjustment it's something that can be disregarded and unworthy of discussion or further rethinking.

You did not raise a question in the post you replied to me, so I'm not avoiding it.

This symbol "?" is a question mark. Its a form of grammar which denotes that the preceding sentence was part of a question.

Glad to be of help

zyk · October 2018

frozywozy wrote: »

So you don't think that the recent nerf to forward momentum is the problem and should be looked at? Personally I don't think that we should nerf snares removal. Speed was the issue (speed pots, swift trait).

I thought that was a good adjustment, actually. It allowed for snares and immobilizations to be countered too easily. No one likes to be snared or rooted, but those are functions that make combat more tactical. Part of the problem with Rapids is that it reduces the number tactics that may be used against large groups, in addition to the Major Expedition buff it provides.

Sandman929 wrote: »

Most people aren't asking for similar nerfs to the Major Expedition provided by Rapid Maneuvers, because Rapids already drops off very quickly in a fight if a group doesn't have adequate support. What most people are asking for is basically the removal of a support role in PvP by reducing the effectiveness of group buffs via arbitrary target caps and other means that have nothing to do with the duration of Major Expedition (which is what the other changes target).
It looks pretty petty, and based on the changes of Murkmire it doesn't seem to be in line with the changes ZOS wanted. High uptime on Major Expedition was easy with very little effort, and that's what got changed. High uptime on Major Expedition with the dedicated effort of a group member devoted to supplying it seems to fit the changes ZOS wanted.

Only ZOS can speak to their vision, but IMO Rapids was initially adjusted in 2.3 to mitigate the way it is being used today. Groups adapted to the changes made to it in 2.3. I don't think it's difficult at all for a group to use or implement, especially if they already have one or more support builds specialized for sustain. The most mediocre large groups benefit greatly from rapids with very little effort.

I've been part of guilds that ran OP ball groups which had top theorycrafters that designed optimal group comps, so I can appreciate the skill and expertise that goes into building an elite large group. However, that level of expertise is not required to greatly benefit from Rapids.

But again, the bottom line for me is that by making everyone outside of a large group slower, large groups have been indirectly buffed and this has further imbalanced the differences between play styles.

This isn't theory at this point. I've fought multiple large groups already and the ease at which they can separate themselves from their opponents is obvious. They've gained a significant advantage.

I predict we're going to see even less map engagement from solo and small scale players when ball groups are running. That means experienced players will offer less support against ball groups, making the experience of fighting them even more miserable for the average casual player in Cyrodiil. This means fewer good fights for everyone.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · October 2018

zyk wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

So you don't think that the recent nerf to forward momentum is the problem and should be looked at? Personally I don't think that we should nerf snares removal. Speed was the issue (speed pots, swift trait).

I thought that was a good adjustment, actually. It allowed for snares and immobilizations to be countered too easily. No one likes to be snared or rooted, but those are functions that make combat more tactical. Part of the problem with Rapids is that it reduces the number tactics that may be used against large groups, in addition to the Major Expedition buff it provides.

Sandman929 wrote: »

Most people aren't asking for similar nerfs to the Major Expedition provided by Rapid Maneuvers, because Rapids already drops off very quickly in a fight if a group doesn't have adequate support. What most people are asking for is basically the removal of a support role in PvP by reducing the effectiveness of group buffs via arbitrary target caps and other means that have nothing to do with the duration of Major Expedition (which is what the other changes target).
It looks pretty petty, and based on the changes of Murkmire it doesn't seem to be in line with the changes ZOS wanted. High uptime on Major Expedition was easy with very little effort, and that's what got changed. High uptime on Major Expedition with the dedicated effort of a group member devoted to supplying it seems to fit the changes ZOS wanted.

Only ZOS can speak to their vision, but IMO Rapids was initially adjusted in 2.3 to mitigate the way it is being used today. Groups adapted to the changes made to it in 2.3. I don't think it's difficult at all for a group to use or implement, especially if they already have one or more support builds specialized for sustain. The most mediocre large groups benefit greatly from rapids with very little effort.

I've been part of guilds that ran OP ball groups which had top theorycrafters that designed optimal group comps, so I can appreciate the skill and expertise that goes into building an elite large group. However, that level of expertise is not required to greatly benefit from Rapids.

But again, the bottom line for me is that by making everyone outside of a large group slower, large groups have been indirectly buffed and this has further imbalanced the differences between play styles.

This isn't theory at this point. I've fought multiple large groups already and the ease at which they can separate themselves from their opponents is obvious. They've gained a significant advantage.

I predict we're going to see even less map engagement from solo and small scale players when ball groups are running. That means experienced players will offer less support against ball groups, making the experience of fighting them even more miserable for the average casual player in Cyrodiil. This means fewer good fights for everyone.

I think you underestimate how low uptime rapids has in most group raids. Players who aren't running highly optimal builds and dedicated to the role. Knowing how and when to use it. Even when fighting in GvG a lot of the time you can root enemy raids for long periods of time because its not as simple as 'cast rapids once in a while'.

To go onto @ShadowProc 's point too. Raids can't just cast 1 spring then run maintaining rapids. It's not enough incoming heals to deal with any amount of damage. The point of springs is to keep 3 springs on the ground constantly - i.e. losing your rapids ever second (sometimes quicker) Vigor in smallscale doesn't suffer as much from this as it follows you. Springs you run through and they are gone.

If it was as simple and overpowered as you say for groups I think far more groups would be playing and performing well in cyro vs the 'multiple raid zone groups' that we see these days as the safety in numbers style.

Also in comparison FM's immunity is 1 press and it stays on you for 8 seconds (4 now). No counter play whats so ever. Compared to rapids which is lost as soon as any damage or healing is started. (i.e constantly).

Rapids in raid is used for root removal more than root immunity, its essentially a stamina morph of purge.

zyk · October 2018

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I think you underestimate how low uptime rapids has in most group raids. Players who aren't running highly optimal builds and dedicated to the role. Knowing how and when to use it. Even when fighting in GvG a lot of the time you can root enemy raids for long periods of time because its not as simple as 'cast rapids once in a while'.

I don't think so. I can see it very clearly in fights when a ball group is pressured in one location and needs to relocate. I can see it in your videos because of your addon.

Again, I'm not saying there is no benefit to expertise, but even bad groups benefit greatly from rapids. It's really just pick up groups (as in actual pugs and not ungrouped randoms) that don't benefit much.

It is not my intent to take anything away from the skills required to execute what Drac and ZS do. Surely, you use the available tools as well or better than anyone else right now, and I respect that.

If it was as simple and overpowered as you say for groups I think far more groups would be playing and performing well in cyro vs the 'multiple raid zone groups' that we see these days as the safety in numbers style.

Also in comparison FM's immunity is 1 press and it stays on you for 8 seconds (4 now). No counter play whats so ever. Compared to rapids which is lost as soon as any damage or healing is started. (i.e constantly).

I think the biggest reason for the lack of ball groups isn't that they're difficult to execute or ineffective. I think it relates more to the highly casual audience and all the problems this game has. AvA is not attractive to gaming enthusiasts in its current state.

Personally, I haven't put much effort into optimizing a build since 3.0 because this game isn't worth it. I can only play for so long before its issues become intolerable and I am revulsed into taking a few months off. I think most of the players I used to play with in large groups feel the same; if they still play at all.

ShadowProc · October 2018

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

So you don't think that the recent nerf to forward momentum is the problem and should be looked at? Personally I don't think that we should nerf snares removal. Speed was the issue (speed pots, swift trait).

I thought that was a good adjustment, actually. It allowed for snares and immobilizations to be countered too easily. No one likes to be snared or rooted, but those are functions that make combat more tactical. Part of the problem with Rapids is that it reduces the number tactics that may be used against large groups, in addition to the Major Expedition buff it provides.

Sandman929 wrote: »

Most people aren't asking for similar nerfs to the Major Expedition provided by Rapid Maneuvers, because Rapids already drops off very quickly in a fight if a group doesn't have adequate support. What most people are asking for is basically the removal of a support role in PvP by reducing the effectiveness of group buffs via arbitrary target caps and other means that have nothing to do with the duration of Major Expedition (which is what the other changes target).
It looks pretty petty, and based on the changes of Murkmire it doesn't seem to be in line with the changes ZOS wanted. High uptime on Major Expedition was easy with very little effort, and that's what got changed. High uptime on Major Expedition with the dedicated effort of a group member devoted to supplying it seems to fit the changes ZOS wanted.

Only ZOS can speak to their vision, but IMO Rapids was initially adjusted in 2.3 to mitigate the way it is being used today. Groups adapted to the changes made to it in 2.3. I don't think it's difficult at all for a group to use or implement, especially if they already have one or more support builds specialized for sustain. The most mediocre large groups benefit greatly from rapids with very little effort.

I've been part of guilds that ran OP ball groups which had top theorycrafters that designed optimal group comps, so I can appreciate the skill and expertise that goes into building an elite large group. However, that level of expertise is not required to greatly benefit from Rapids.

But again, the bottom line for me is that by making everyone outside of a large group slower, large groups have been indirectly buffed and this has further imbalanced the differences between play styles.

This isn't theory at this point. I've fought multiple large groups already and the ease at which they can separate themselves from their opponents is obvious. They've gained a significant advantage.

I predict we're going to see even less map engagement from solo and small scale players when ball groups are running. That means experienced players will offer less support against ball groups, making the experience of fighting them even more miserable for the average casual player in Cyrodiil. This means fewer good fights for everyone.

I think you underestimate how low uptime rapids has in most group raids. Players who aren't running highly optimal builds and dedicated to the role. Knowing how and when to use it. Even when fighting in GvG a lot of the time you can root enemy raids for long periods of time because its not as simple as 'cast rapids once in a while'.

To go onto @ShadowProc 's point too. Raids can't just cast 1 spring then run maintaining rapids. It's not enough incoming heals to deal with any amount of damage. The point of springs is to keep 3 springs on the ground constantly - i.e. losing your rapids ever second (sometimes quicker) Vigor in smallscale doesn't suffer as much from this as it follows you. Springs you run through and they are gone.

If it was as simple and overpowered as you say for groups I think far more groups would be playing and performing well in cyro vs the 'multiple raid zone groups' that we see these days as the safety in numbers style.

Also in comparison FM's immunity is 1 press and it stays on you for 8 seconds (4 now). No counter play whats so ever. Compared to rapids which is lost as soon as any damage or healing is started. (i.e constantly).

Rapids in raid is used for root removal more than root immunity, its essentially a stamina morph of purge.

Thank you for your honesty.

And you dont think one person I raid removing all snares up to 24 people is OP?

Jules · October 2018

frozywozy wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Why can't you use maneuver in a non-bally group? It has a radius of 20 meters ?

Because if your solo or small group you cant afford the skill slot or to spam it.

In a large group you have one role. So if you are the Rapids spammer you build just enough survivability but plenty of stam regen to spam Rapids.

Same principle for purge.

These ball groups also solo from time to time so they know what a huge over sight by Zos this was.

It is completely broken. This skill has been left broken way too long. Purge and Rapids should effect no more than 6 players.

Rapids is a joke. You gain way too much from one ability in a group. It's the most broken ability in the game.

Take out the support after or two spamming this BS and watch how quickly you take out a group.

At least swift gave you the chance to get away. Now good luck when a ball group sets their sights on you with AP foaming from their mouth.

so what you mean is that Rapid should be nerfed to affect only 6 players so a group of 16 could not get away from a group of 40 but your group of 4 could still get away from a group of 12. Did I get this right?

Yes. I did mean you should have to make an investment like that group of 4 or solo should do.

Can you honestly say having one person in that 16 man group spamming that is the same investment a solo or 4 person?

So have 3 spammers and 2 healers and that still leaves 11 for damage. You will be just fine and STILL GET AWAY FROM THAT BLOB.

I large scaled as well for the first 4 years. I now exclusively play small scale. Both large and scale should be allowed their play style. BUT BALANCED.

I liked the faster playstyle alot and would have preferred not nerfing speed and snare immunity BUT THEY DID. So balance is necessary.

Yes I think you should have to have 3 players invest in survivability out of 16.

The damage output being thrown at you when you fight 12 players is nothing compared to what is being thrown at our group by 50 players.
.

Sorry Froz, but I can't agree.

Sure, theoretically what you are saying is correct, more opponents does lead to more potential damage. What this argument does not account for, however, is the targeting of that damage.

And that's what is at the heart of this issue, is the dispersion of damage. It's not necessarily even relevant to discuss how much damage is being output, the more relevant conversation is where that damage is being received. If there are less people to target, the damage is more highly concentrated on those fewer targets. Yes, you may have 10 damage ultimates aimed at you, but they are lost and mitigated by your group; whereas the damage focused on me has no where to go but to my healthbar.

In addition, aside from the fact that the concentration of damage is higher on the individual in small scale than large scale, this does not even account for role allocation or how each group would deal with that damage. It is not your sole responsibility to get out of, mitigate or heal through all of this damage you speak of. It is the shared responsibility of your group to do everything TOGETHER.

Large group works because each player is like a cog in a highly functioning mechanism. Each player in a large group has 1-2 roles they do explicitly and exceptionally. Because of this, they are able to smudge over and coverup the weaknesses of their teammates (ie: healers with poor damage, damage with poor survivability, tanks who are slow, ect) In turn, each player has their own weaknesses smudged over as well, creating a network-type, cooperative and highly functional playstyle.

Small scale, in contrast, is the exact opposite. There is generally very limited build / role alignment in true small scale, and obviously not in solo. It happens occasionally, but that's the exception moreso than the rule. Most small scale or solo players do not have the luxury of allocating vital roles of speed, heals or damage to another person; they need to be able to do all these things themselves. By the very concept of their chosen playstyle, they design themselves to be self sufficient. So while this playstyle *can* cooperate with others, it does not *require* this cooperation to be functional or successful.

I didn't outline this to belittle you, or your playstyle. We are friends, I respect your guild, so don't take it as flaming because it's not intended that way. I just mean to illustrate what I'm sure you already realistically know- which is that large group may encounter MORE players and damage overall, but this does not ultimately trickle down to more overall incoming damage to the individual.

frozywozy · October 2018

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

If 3-6 players inside 50 players wipe a “ball group”...wouldn’t it stand to reason that 53-56 players killed the “ball group?”

The point that derailed this conversation entirely was that someone asked for counters as a solo player against ballgroups in general so we started talking about what you can do to help as a solo / small group against them.

Obviously the real counter to an organized group is another group. That's not science

"caeliusstarbreaker wrote:

Personally I think snares should only be on ground targeted aoe abilities that do minimal dmg and main focus is applying snare to area.

100% agreed. I think that's a great idea. I would start by removing class passives such as Warmth that reduce the enemy's Movement Speed by 30% for 4 seconds when using Ardent flames abilities. Way too strong.

frozywozy · October 2018

zyk wrote: »

I thought that was a good adjustment, actually. It allowed for snares and immobilizations to be countered too easily. No one likes to be snared or rooted, but those are functions that make combat more tactical.

So what you're saying is that you agree 100% with the Forward Momentum nerf?

But again, the bottom line for me is that by making everyone outside of a large group slower, large groups have been indirectly buffed and this has further imbalanced the differences between play styles.

Yep and that's exactly why I think the recent changes to Forward Momentum should be looked at. There was absolutely no reason to nerf Snare immunity as there are way too many snares in the game right now and it's a big quality of life issue. I have discussed this with dozens of friends and we all agreed on this point. Fighting with snares constantly reapplied on you no matter where you stand or what you do is just extremely frustrating, aggravating and irritating.

The problem was that players were able to get away at extreme speed with a combination of speed pots and swift trait which have been addressed. Being able to do a full rotation / combo on your opponents while pivoting around him at normal speed should be possible. Right now it's not for small scale. 4seconds of immunity is not enough to do a full rotation on your target.

This change came out of nowhere when the problem in reality was not that people were not getting rooted and snared enough. The problem was that during that period of snares immunity, they were able to get out of range at insane speed and reset the fight too easily.

This isn't theory at this point. I've fought multiple large groups already and the ease at which they can separate themselves from their opponents is obvious. They've gained a significant advantage.

There is no ease to separate ourselves from a zergball, I am sorry but this is simply not true. Especially since Summerset, with the addition of Time Stop to the game that is extremely hard to break, if we stay in openfield for too long with no ulti to counter push we start losing people left and right. Especially when intelligent players started using the tools I provided earlier in this thread such as Frozen Gates and Unrelenting Grip.

I think the biggest reason for the lack of ball groups isn't that they're difficult to execute or ineffective. I think it relates more to the highly casual audience and all the problems this game has. AvA is not attractive to gaming enthusiasts in its current state.

I agree that both factors are valid, but I disagree about which one is the most important right now. Being able to understand the game mechanics to be successful right now in a 12-16men raid against 40players (meaning that you don't fight anymore on top of your faction and you create your own fights in enemy territory) is something that most people don't want to commit to. Or at least and as @Ixtyr explained really well in his first post in this thread, when a group starts getting wiped too much, they get discouraged and simply go pvdoor the map which does not make anybody feel better in the end.

To resume, I don't believe that snares removal should be nerfed for anybody. There are several great solutions proposed in this thread that aren't as drastic as nerfing the duration of Forward Momentum by half or reducing the amount of players Retreating Maneuvers affects to 6.

frozywozy · October 2018

@Jules I agree about the fact that as a solo player or someone being part of small scale, you get focused more by single target skills and it is much harder to recover from the damage done. Remember the keyword. During a small scale scenario, your best way to recover is running builds with enough mobility / sustain to re position yourself until your hp is 100%.

This being said, my main point was that the damage being thrown at a 12-16men raid by 40-50 players (in my example I was figuring 6 dawnbreakers, 4 storms and a negate) is still instant aoe damage that will hit and focus down players in a certain area. The same way you would get hit by 2 Incap and 1 Meteor at once fighting 12 players with 4. When we get hit by that many people, it is crucial that we move out as soon as possible of the contested area to avoid any remaining dot / ground effect and execute spam thrown at us.

The only real elements that help a 12-16men group survive against that much more damage is their health pool (30k instead of 20-23k, the bone shield synergy, which affects only a few members and got nerfed drastically this patch and finally major protection from a permafrost). The last 2 have to proactively be used before any ulti dumb.

To resume, I believe that both group styles face similar threats at different scales during an ulti dumb but the biggest difference is that a large group will rely on more powerful sources to recover such as more healing, more group buff sets, purge and movement. The smaller groups main element will be their mobility to reposition themselves which is why I believe that snares / roots should be looked at and the few abilities that allow you to get ride of them should not be nerfed.

Again, the max speed was the problem last patch.

WaltherCarraway · October 2018

4x befoul weapon
3x damage health
3x poison weapon
1x PoTL
Skull damage health.

yep adapt my ass

WaltherCarraway · October 2018

oh, and stamina nightblade is the easiest spec to 1v1 when your opponent is not another stamblade.

funny how some pro in this thread still keeping their mouth shut about how torug + infused enchantment is breaking the game because it's always the same people defending the most broken *** in this game. lol

why don't yall ask those people to adapt, l2p against the current meta just like usual???

UppGRAYxDD · October 2018

In ZoS's eyes, Cyrodil open world PvP is for grouping up and large group battles...BGs are where they expect ppl to 1vX or solo play. While I understand their motives and ideology pertaining to what they want to provide as a PvP experience, but what I dont get is why they refuse to listen to the longtime PvPers. We(many longtime PvPers) want to be able to play solo in Cyrodil and enjoy it without needing to join a group, plain and simple.

yodased · October 2018

What I find interesting is the similarities that the "small man" and the "ball group" have.

How many times do you see a "small man" of 4-5 people chase and destroy a singular person, they co-ordinate and ult dump on one guy, or they are in stealth and murk anyone coming near that resource they feel they need to guard.

Then, when asked why they even do this, it's invariably, "git gud", "you are a scrub", "my resource" what have you.

So, equal odds come, or overwhelming odds and they complain about being overrun.

What's the goal of the small man then? If you want equal number fights, there is a place for that, its called Battle Grounds and its only teams of 4.

Why, for any reason, would AvAvA combat even consider a single or small group in their decision making process of balance?

Sure, you CAN do whatever you want in Cyrodiil, but that doesn't mean you are entitled to special treatment, that doesn't mean that you get certain concessions because you choose to play this way.

It's amazing how easily the conversation flips to "balance" and "fair" when they are the target of something, but when they are sitting at a resource for 2 hours killing pugs, all is well in the world.

All it is 'me me me me' what about what I want, my needs, I'm special.

Sorry you can't run around towers and farm pugs like you used to, those were some good times eh?