Premature 30 minute observations of 4.2 AvA

NBrookus

^
Plus you are dealing with snare and cc spam while trying to get into position for that perfect ult dump, with a very small margin of error.

And at least one Earthgore will proc anyway.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

You could survive it solo potentially but as a group when you are fighting in a situation with a lot of pressure lots of siege hitting you and outnumbered not everything is easy to survive. Personally I wouldn't go for exactly that setup but actually it's remarkably easy to wipe groups.

I noticed that when rapids was nerfed there were no cries of "ball groups got nerfed, nerf smallscale!". Now speed pots got nerfed the uproar is quite humorous. Ironically had rapids not been nerfed it wouldn't have been a problem now as smallscalers could still easily use it too.

Equally it's always odd to me why smallscale groups actually care about ball groups in general. Their objectives as groups are fairly different and sure there the "zerging down" part of it but I've seen a fair amount of smallscale groups pug surfing down ball groups too with no qualms.

As for ball groups got buffed. Actually no nothing changed. The only difference is that now solo players won't have perma speed unless they choose to use skills to give it. Similar to how groups choose to use one of their skills as a unit to do it.

The only classes I feel any sympathy for are mag templars/wardens/dks.

Edit: the change I would have made would have been reducing the speed of sprint by the same amount of movement speed on swift. i.e. 10% base movement speed but -10% sprint speed

ScruffyWhiskers

I try not to judge because you should be able to play this game anyway that you want but there are 3 or 4 man "small scale" groups out there that just tower farm for hours.

LeifErickson

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

You could survive it solo potentially but as a group when you are fighting in a situation with a lot of pressure lots of siege hitting you and outnumbered not everything is easy to survive. Personally I wouldn't go for exactly that setup but actually it's remarkably easy to wipe groups.

I thought we were talking about a 4 man versus a ball group. I didn't know we were assuming the ball group was wading through a faction stack. Obviously if the 4 have 40 others with them it's a completely different scenario, but there is no way that 4 man group could kill the ball group just 4vball with no other factors.

LeifErickson

Also @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO people probably didn't scream to nerf small scale because they didn't think it was overpowered. I'm not saying it is or isn't but I think it's fair to say no one thinks small scale is too strong so no one asks to nerf it.

You are talking to a guy who means magplar and mdk if that means anything.

Joy_Division

casparian wrote: »

@frozywozy has a point — nerfing Rapids makes it much harder for the coordinated 16-24 person group to take down the true blob zerg of 30+. Do we really want to give players more incentive to cluster in such enormous groups? We need ball groups so that someone can clear out the blobs.

But that’s just a special case of the point others in this thread have made: efficient access to mobility is necessary at all scales of PVP. It makes no sense for ZOS to decide that only a specific type of group can have efficient access to mobility.

Clearly the solution isn’t to nerf the ball group play style, but to un-nerf small scale. Make Major Expedition an accessible buff again (with necessary adjustments to Swift), or provide general, scale-agnostic adjustments to snares.

Otherwise, like jdking said, many of us just won’t bother to play.

His point is pretty much the saem as everyone's else point: You got nerfed? Adapt, you canYoo bad, don;t nerf the way I play.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

You could survive it solo potentially but as a group when you are fighting in a situation with a lot of pressure lots of siege hitting you and outnumbered not everything is easy to survive. Personally I wouldn't go for exactly that setup but actually it's remarkably easy to wipe groups.

I noticed that when rapids was nerfed there were no cries of "ball groups got nerfed, nerf smallscale!". Now speed pots got nerfed the uproar is quite humorous. Ironically had rapids not been nerfed it wouldn't have been a problem now as smallscalers could still easily use it too.

Equally it's always odd to me why smallscale groups actually care about ball groups in general. Their objectives as groups are fairly different and sure there the "zerging down" part of it but I've seen a fair amount of smallscale groups pug surfing down ball groups too with no qualms.

As for ball groups got buffed. Actually no nothing changed. The only difference is that now solo players won't have perma speed unless they choose to use skills to give it. Similar to how groups choose to use one of their skills as a unit to do it.

The only classes I feel any sympathy for are mag templars/wardens/dks.

Edit: the change I would have made would have been reducing the speed of sprint by the same amount of movement speed on swift. i.e. 10% base movement speed but -10% sprint speed

Frozn didn't mention a faction stack and siege.

That you feel sympathy for half the specs in the game suggests the changes ZOS made were not good and ought to be rethought.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Joy_Division wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

@frozywozy has a point — nerfing Rapids makes it much harder for the coordinated 16-24 person group to take down the true blob zerg of 30+. Do we really want to give players more incentive to cluster in such enormous groups? We need ball groups so that someone can clear out the blobs.

But that’s just a special case of the point others in this thread have made: efficient access to mobility is necessary at all scales of PVP. It makes no sense for ZOS to decide that only a specific type of group can have efficient access to mobility.

Clearly the solution isn’t to nerf the ball group play style, but to un-nerf small scale. Make Major Expedition an accessible buff again (with necessary adjustments to Swift), or provide general, scale-agnostic adjustments to snares.

Otherwise, like jdking said, many of us just won’t bother to play.

His point is pretty much the saem as everyone's else point: You got nerfed? Adapt, you canYoo bad, don;t nerf the way I play.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

You could survive it solo potentially but as a group when you are fighting in a situation with a lot of pressure lots of siege hitting you and outnumbered not everything is easy to survive. Personally I wouldn't go for exactly that setup but actually it's remarkably easy to wipe groups.

I noticed that when rapids was nerfed there were no cries of "ball groups got nerfed, nerf smallscale!". Now speed pots got nerfed the uproar is quite humorous. Ironically had rapids not been nerfed it wouldn't have been a problem now as smallscalers could still easily use it too.

Equally it's always odd to me why smallscale groups actually care about ball groups in general. Their objectives as groups are fairly different and sure there the "zerging down" part of it but I've seen a fair amount of smallscale groups pug surfing down ball groups too with no qualms.

As for ball groups got buffed. Actually no nothing changed. The only difference is that now solo players won't have perma speed unless they choose to use skills to give it. Similar to how groups choose to use one of their skills as a unit to do it.

The only classes I feel any sympathy for are mag templars/wardens/dks.

Edit: the change I would have made would have been reducing the speed of sprint by the same amount of movement speed on swift. i.e. 10% base movement speed but -10% sprint speed

Frozn didn't mention a faction stack and siege.

That you feel sympathy for half the specs in the game suggests the changes ZOS made were not good and ought to be rethought.

@Joy_Division There are more than 6 specs in the game.
Yes I feel sympathy for the mag classes i mentioned who have been continually nerfed and haven't had access to magicka versions of speed pots but yet managed to play the game without complaining endlessly about speed pots and maneuvers before.

Yes I think that the changes should be rethought, I even gave an example of what I would change instead but you haven't responded to that.

I make my own points here, If you want to reply to Frozn's you can do so.

Also I think its not really a stretch to generalise that a 4m group is going to be more effective at taking out a larger group when they are either:
1) Playing badly / poor players
2) Distracted by other situations
I'm speaking from experience of having wiped certain 24m's with just 3-6 people on NA. I wouldn't expect a group of 4 people to just walk up to a 16m in open field and go GvG with them, (although it could be possible with the right comp and bad enough players)

Blindly calling for nerfing other playstyles because you don't like your own is never the answer imo.

Dyride

Realistically, instead of nerfing Rapid Maneuvers, they should decrease the cost AND make it effect allies outside of group (up to 6 targets). Make it easier for solo and small scalers, not nerf for groups.

This way groups shouldn't be reliant on specs fully designated to a boring ass role and more people could use the skill to support allies.

ShadowProc

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

@frozywozy has a point — nerfing Rapids makes it much harder for the coordinated 16-24 person group to take down the true blob zerg of 30+. Do we really want to give players more incentive to cluster in such enormous groups? We need ball groups so that someone can clear out the blobs.

But that’s just a special case of the point others in this thread have made: efficient access to mobility is necessary at all scales of PVP. It makes no sense for ZOS to decide that only a specific type of group can have efficient access to mobility.

Clearly the solution isn’t to nerf the ball group play style, but to un-nerf small scale. Make Major Expedition an accessible buff again (with necessary adjustments to Swift), or provide general, scale-agnostic adjustments to snares.

Otherwise, like jdking said, many of us just won’t bother to play.

His point is pretty much the saem as everyone's else point: You got nerfed? Adapt, you canYoo bad, don;t nerf the way I play.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

You could survive it solo potentially but as a group when you are fighting in a situation with a lot of pressure lots of siege hitting you and outnumbered not everything is easy to survive. Personally I wouldn't go for exactly that setup but actually it's remarkably easy to wipe groups.

I noticed that when rapids was nerfed there were no cries of "ball groups got nerfed, nerf smallscale!". Now speed pots got nerfed the uproar is quite humorous. Ironically had rapids not been nerfed it wouldn't have been a problem now as smallscalers could still easily use it too.

Equally it's always odd to me why smallscale groups actually care about ball groups in general. Their objectives as groups are fairly different and sure there the "zerging down" part of it but I've seen a fair amount of smallscale groups pug surfing down ball groups too with no qualms.

As for ball groups got buffed. Actually no nothing changed. The only difference is that now solo players won't have perma speed unless they choose to use skills to give it. Similar to how groups choose to use one of their skills as a unit to do it.

The only classes I feel any sympathy for are mag templars/wardens/dks.

Edit: the change I would have made would have been reducing the speed of sprint by the same amount of movement speed on swift. i.e. 10% base movement speed but -10% sprint speed

Frozn didn't mention a faction stack and siege.

That you feel sympathy for half the specs in the game suggests the changes ZOS made were not good and ought to be rethought.

@Joy_Division There are more than 6 specs in the game.
Yes I feel sympathy for the mag classes i mentioned who have been continually nerfed and haven't had access to magicka versions of speed pots but yet managed to play the game without complaining endlessly about speed pots and maneuvers before.

Yes I think that the changes should be rethought, I even gave an example of what I would change instead but you haven't responded to that.

I make my own points here, If you want to reply to Frozn's you can do so.

Also I think its not really a stretch to generalise that a 4m group is going to be more effective at taking out a larger group when they are either:
1) Playing badly / poor players
2) Distracted by other situations
I'm speaking from experience of having wiped certain 24m's with just 3-6 people on NA. I wouldn't expect a group of 4 people to just walk up to a 16m in open field and go GvG with them, (although it could be possible with the right comp and bad enough players)

Blindly calling for nerfing other playstyles because you don't like your own is never the answer imo.

No matter what any you spin it it is unbalanced. I haven't heard one counter of why it is not broken, OP, and unbalanced fir play styles.

Saying no one cried for nerfs before or deflecting how to bring down a ball group in a vacuum is an ACTUAL REASON to how Rapids is balanced for ball groups versus solo/small scale.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

@frozywozy has a point — nerfing Rapids makes it much harder for the coordinated 16-24 person group to take down the true blob zerg of 30+. Do we really want to give players more incentive to cluster in such enormous groups? We need ball groups so that someone can clear out the blobs.

But that’s just a special case of the point others in this thread have made: efficient access to mobility is necessary at all scales of PVP. It makes no sense for ZOS to decide that only a specific type of group can have efficient access to mobility.

Clearly the solution isn’t to nerf the ball group play style, but to un-nerf small scale. Make Major Expedition an accessible buff again (with necessary adjustments to Swift), or provide general, scale-agnostic adjustments to snares.

Otherwise, like jdking said, many of us just won’t bother to play.

His point is pretty much the saem as everyone's else point: You got nerfed? Adapt, you canYoo bad, don;t nerf the way I play.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

You could survive it solo potentially but as a group when you are fighting in a situation with a lot of pressure lots of siege hitting you and outnumbered not everything is easy to survive. Personally I wouldn't go for exactly that setup but actually it's remarkably easy to wipe groups.

I noticed that when rapids was nerfed there were no cries of "ball groups got nerfed, nerf smallscale!". Now speed pots got nerfed the uproar is quite humorous. Ironically had rapids not been nerfed it wouldn't have been a problem now as smallscalers could still easily use it too.

Equally it's always odd to me why smallscale groups actually care about ball groups in general. Their objectives as groups are fairly different and sure there the "zerging down" part of it but I've seen a fair amount of smallscale groups pug surfing down ball groups too with no qualms.

As for ball groups got buffed. Actually no nothing changed. The only difference is that now solo players won't have perma speed unless they choose to use skills to give it. Similar to how groups choose to use one of their skills as a unit to do it.

The only classes I feel any sympathy for are mag templars/wardens/dks.

Edit: the change I would have made would have been reducing the speed of sprint by the same amount of movement speed on swift. i.e. 10% base movement speed but -10% sprint speed

Frozn didn't mention a faction stack and siege.

That you feel sympathy for half the specs in the game suggests the changes ZOS made were not good and ought to be rethought.

@Joy_Division There are more than 6 specs in the game.
Yes I feel sympathy for the mag classes i mentioned who have been continually nerfed and haven't had access to magicka versions of speed pots but yet managed to play the game without complaining endlessly about speed pots and maneuvers before.

Yes I think that the changes should be rethought, I even gave an example of what I would change instead but you haven't responded to that.

I make my own points here, If you want to reply to Frozn's you can do so.

Also I think its not really a stretch to generalise that a 4m group is going to be more effective at taking out a larger group when they are either:
1) Playing badly / poor players
2) Distracted by other situations
I'm speaking from experience of having wiped certain 24m's with just 3-6 people on NA. I wouldn't expect a group of 4 people to just walk up to a 16m in open field and go GvG with them, (although it could be possible with the right comp and bad enough players)

Blindly calling for nerfing other playstyles because you don't like your own is never the answer imo.

No matter what any you spin it it is unbalanced. I haven't heard one counter of why it is not broken, OP, and unbalanced fir play styles.

Saying no one cried for nerfs before or deflecting how to bring down a ball group in a vacuum is an ACTUAL REASON to how Rapids is balanced for ball groups versus solo/small scale.

Its not broken because it is removed on casting damage or healing thus requiring a high investment by a group in order to keep a good up time. Like with other skills.

ShadowProc

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

@frozywozy has a point — nerfing Rapids makes it much harder for the coordinated 16-24 person group to take down the true blob zerg of 30+. Do we really want to give players more incentive to cluster in such enormous groups? We need ball groups so that someone can clear out the blobs.

But that’s just a special case of the point others in this thread have made: efficient access to mobility is necessary at all scales of PVP. It makes no sense for ZOS to decide that only a specific type of group can have efficient access to mobility.

Clearly the solution isn’t to nerf the ball group play style, but to un-nerf small scale. Make Major Expedition an accessible buff again (with necessary adjustments to Swift), or provide general, scale-agnostic adjustments to snares.

Otherwise, like jdking said, many of us just won’t bother to play.

His point is pretty much the saem as everyone's else point: You got nerfed? Adapt, you canYoo bad, don;t nerf the way I play.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

You could survive it solo potentially but as a group when you are fighting in a situation with a lot of pressure lots of siege hitting you and outnumbered not everything is easy to survive. Personally I wouldn't go for exactly that setup but actually it's remarkably easy to wipe groups.

I noticed that when rapids was nerfed there were no cries of "ball groups got nerfed, nerf smallscale!". Now speed pots got nerfed the uproar is quite humorous. Ironically had rapids not been nerfed it wouldn't have been a problem now as smallscalers could still easily use it too.

Equally it's always odd to me why smallscale groups actually care about ball groups in general. Their objectives as groups are fairly different and sure there the "zerging down" part of it but I've seen a fair amount of smallscale groups pug surfing down ball groups too with no qualms.

As for ball groups got buffed. Actually no nothing changed. The only difference is that now solo players won't have perma speed unless they choose to use skills to give it. Similar to how groups choose to use one of their skills as a unit to do it.

The only classes I feel any sympathy for are mag templars/wardens/dks.

Edit: the change I would have made would have been reducing the speed of sprint by the same amount of movement speed on swift. i.e. 10% base movement speed but -10% sprint speed

Frozn didn't mention a faction stack and siege.

That you feel sympathy for half the specs in the game suggests the changes ZOS made were not good and ought to be rethought.

@Joy_Division There are more than 6 specs in the game.
Yes I feel sympathy for the mag classes i mentioned who have been continually nerfed and haven't had access to magicka versions of speed pots but yet managed to play the game without complaining endlessly about speed pots and maneuvers before.

Yes I think that the changes should be rethought, I even gave an example of what I would change instead but you haven't responded to that.

I make my own points here, If you want to reply to Frozn's you can do so.

Also I think its not really a stretch to generalise that a 4m group is going to be more effective at taking out a larger group when they are either:
1) Playing badly / poor players
2) Distracted by other situations
I'm speaking from experience of having wiped certain 24m's with just 3-6 people on NA. I wouldn't expect a group of 4 people to just walk up to a 16m in open field and go GvG with them, (although it could be possible with the right comp and bad enough players)

Blindly calling for nerfing other playstyles because you don't like your own is never the answer imo.

No matter what any you spin it it is unbalanced. I haven't heard one counter of why it is not broken, OP, and unbalanced fir play styles.

Saying no one cried for nerfs before or deflecting how to bring down a ball group in a vacuum is an ACTUAL REASON to how Rapids is balanced for ball groups versus solo/small scale.

Its not broken because it is removed on casting damage or healing thus requiring a high investment by a group in order to keep a good up time. Like with other skills.

Serious question as I dont know. If the healing springs are already casted on the ground does that remove Rapids if it heals your party? I am pretty sure it doesnt and I thought it was wierd how much Drac spams healing springs.

frozywozy

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

When I said 4 players can wipe a ballgroup, I was reffering to 4 players zerg surfing on top of 50 players which we fight on the daily basis. Sometimes guild groups will even be part of that and give us quite a challenge when its the case.

When you mention that Gravity crush is the only burst, with all due respect, you have alot to learn about the game mechanics in the game. Every damaging element I mentioned is part of the burst and if you time it well when a ballgroup is already kiting alot of damage from your zerg, you can drastically change the fight.

Let see how much damage you can do per player average during a 5 seconds window and I'll be modest here :

1) 4 Proxies : 32k
2) Ignite : 12k
3) Shackle : 14k
4) Lightning Flood : 10k
5) Gravity Crush : 20k
6) Storm : 12k

Total : 100k damage per player (average)

WaltherCarraway

Synergies have merely a second of cooldown just fyi.

frozywozy

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

Synergies have merely a second of cooldown just fyi.

Well if I do my quikmaffs right, that gives you two options :

1) One player drops his ult in one sec, then uses one synergy per second (4 synergies = 4 seconds)
2) Every player uses one synergy

WaltherCarraway

i'd say you meant situation 2) before. mb overall.

IxSTALKERxI

LeifErickson wrote: »

Speed was ridiculously overpowered and needed a nerf. It sucks that class skills got nerfed as well but speed pots and swift were dumb. Lots of people were saying that speed pots only got nerfed because of swift. In my opinion, speed pots have been overpowered for a long time and needed to be nerfed too.

Yeah I agree. Immovable/speed pots have been OP for years lol. The swift / forwad momentum builds needed to be dealt with, it was impossible to lock down players in towers who kept all buffs up.

frozywozy wrote: »

I personally think that Forward Momentum was fine the way it was. It should not have been nerfed. We need more ways to deal with snares and their effect need to be diminished, not only their duration.

You can find in my signature and in several posts addressing the PTS different ideas to balance the problem :

- Add potions that provide snares immunity
- Increase the snare immunity duration of Shuffle on pair with Forward Momentum (pre-nerf)
- Change the useless morph of Mist form to the following : Remove the CC immunity, keep the Snare immunity and also let you cast abilities (Magicka forward momentum)
- Bring diminishing returns to the game (first time you get snared : full duration, second time after using a snare removal in a 5seconds period : half duration, third time after using a snare removal in a 5seconds period : immune for 5 seconds). This could also be valid for any root and imbalance / disorient effects.

Removing Retreating maneuvers from the game would literally kill ballgroups in any openfield scenario.
Zergs would dominate Cyrodiil with no counter.

Snare immunity is extremely powerful and shouldn't be too easily accessible in my opinion. I don't agree with some of the changes in mirkmire, but I also don't agree with some of your suggestions either.

Here is what I would do:

1. Add a speed cap to run speed (movement while casting abilities) similar to how there is a speed cap for sprint speed. This would allow more build diversity as player could choose between major expedition buff or stacking swift jewlery whilst having a cap so they can't do both.

2. Make shuffle a flat 4 second immunity same as forward momentum.

3. Make major expedition buffs 5 seconds instead of 4 seconds to encourage players to use a rotation.

4. Decrease maneuvers to target cap of 12. I believe 6 is too extreme. Twelve is perfect for PVP and PVE balance. I'm sure groups will adapt just fine with a target cap of 12 and it will be more balanced and open up more counter-play opportunities.

5. Decrease potency of all snares by 25%. EG. 30% & 45% etc instead of 40% / 60% etc

As for mistform I agree that one of the morphs is useless, but I wouldn't make it a magicka forward momentum. I think a cool idea would be instead of granting major expedition, it snares enemies within 6m by 30%. lol. Like the opposite of mist form, kinda a trolly but sticking with the offensive theme of poison mist. After playing ice warden there is something really satisfying about snaring people to get away rather than just using speed.

But yeah, be careful with snare immunity, you don't wanna hand it out for free. Snares are really important imo.

frozywozy wrote: »

They just nerfed Dark Deal precisely to affect ballgroups without nerfing small scalling too much. I think that was the right approach to address the ingoing issue. Reducing the amount of people speed affects will just instantly kill any kind of organized group plays. Zergs would be massing left and right without any counter whatsoever.

It's not that bad tbh. As a support player in raid you can't really spam dark deal anyway because it takes too long, so the passive stam over time isn't such a bad thing. In small scale it was much more advantageous to LOS and spam it a few times between opponents. It's still easy to sustain due to itemization anyway.

frozywozy wrote: »

This being said, there are key roles in the game that can change the course of a fight if played well while zerg surfing against an organized group. First is the bomb blade, second is a negate sorc, third is a warden with the frozen gate and last and not the least is the dk with the grip. Each of them, independently and if timed properly can influence the battle and get several players killed. Most people have seen me achieve this times and times again with my bomb blade.

If you can get a few friends to join you, the best comp to totally destroy a ballgroup and I mean kill all of them is made of only 4 players. One bomb blade, one negate sorc, one magdk and one templar of any spec.

1) 4 Proxies
2) One storm
3) One banner
4) One negate
5) One nova
6) Combination of synergies with harmony (ignite, shackle, gravity crush, lightning flood and if you really want to, energy orb)

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

I ran harmony groups when summerset came out and it's really OP. Would need to be LOS or stealth bomb, head to head you would need dumb luck but I have actually done it lol.

In his post he specified zerg surfing also, destroying enemy groups while zerg surfing has been pretty easy since like one tamriel tbh.

frozywozy

I am not sure I agree 100% about the change suggested but gave you an Awesome for the reasoning and the thoughts put into your post. You do bring alot of valid points.

LeifErickson

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

When I said 4 players can wipe a ballgroup, I was reffering to 4 players zerg surfing on top of 50 players which we fight on the daily basis. Sometimes guild groups will even be part of that and give us quite a challenge when its the case.

When you mention that Gravity crush is the only burst, with all due respect, you have alot to learn about the game mechanics in the game. Every damaging element I mentioned is part of the burst and if you time it well when a ballgroup is already kiting alot of damage from your zerg, you can drastically change the fight.

Let see how much damage you can do per player average during a 5 seconds window and I'll be modest here :

1) 4 Proxies : 32k
2) Ignite : 12k
3) Shackle : 14k
4) Lightning Flood : 10k
5) Gravity Crush : 20k
6) Storm : 12k

Total : 100k damage per player (average)

Can you show me some screenshots of you hitting those kind of numbers on ball groups? I have never seen numbers that high before. I've talked to a lot of different people and the highest I've ever heard someone get hit for a nova was 12k from a harmony build. Not saying those numbers aren't possible, but I've just never seen them. And you said 100k per player. Did you mean per group or are you saying they are doing a collective 400k damage?

And I'm guessing you meant impale and not ignite or which one is ignite?

And 4 players zerg surfing is a completely different scenario then just straight up 4vball.

I still stand by that nova is the only burst (other than maybe proxy). If you can show me a group realistically getting all of those to time correctly to act as a burst then I will believe you, but there is no way I could ever realistically see that happening in a 4vball. Obviously since apparently you were talking about the 4 having a faction stack with them, then that's a different story as they will be more preoccupied. But even then, you are telling me that 4 players can do all of those in a reasonable time period to still be considered burst while they also have to keep themselves alive and maintain resources? No way. I'd have to see it to believe it.

I can tell you right now that no group in this game could place all of those at the same time while keeping themselves alive and activating the synergies at the right time. It's literally not possible.

"When you mention that Gravity crush is the only burst, with all due respect, you have alot to learn about the game mechanics in the game."
You wonder why people always target you on the forums. Like, come on man.

Even if those numbers are true, I could survive that solo in the right situation. And there is no way you are gonna hit more than like 3 people with the nova and liquid lightning.

CyrusArya

frozywozy wrote: »

When I said 4 players can wipe a ballgroup, I was reffering to 4 players zerg surfing on top of 50 players which we fight on the daily basis. Sometimes guild groups will even be part of that and give us quite a challenge when its the case.

“Ball groups are super easy to counter, all it takes is an elite 4 man squad dedicating their builds to zerg busting, riding a 50 person faction stack.

Flawless logic, you sir have made me a believer. Buff rapids.

IxSTALKERxI

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

When I said 4 players can wipe a ballgroup, I was reffering to 4 players zerg surfing on top of 50 players which we fight on the daily basis. Sometimes guild groups will even be part of that and give us quite a challenge when its the case.

When you mention that Gravity crush is the only burst, with all due respect, you have alot to learn about the game mechanics in the game. Every damaging element I mentioned is part of the burst and if you time it well when a ballgroup is already kiting alot of damage from your zerg, you can drastically change the fight.

Let see how much damage you can do per player average during a 5 seconds window and I'll be modest here :

1) 4 Proxies : 32k
2) Ignite : 12k
3) Shackle : 14k
4) Lightning Flood : 10k
5) Gravity Crush : 20k
6) Storm : 12k

Total : 100k damage per player (average)

Can you show me some screenshots of you hitting those kind of numbers on ball groups? I have never seen numbers that high before. I've talked to a lot of different people and the highest I've ever heard someone get hit for a nova was 12k from a harmony build. Not saying those numbers aren't possible, but I've just never seen them. And you said 100k per player. Did you mean per group or are you saying they are doing a collective 400k damage?

And I'm guessing you meant impale and not ignite or which one is ignite?

And 4 players zerg surfing is a completely different scenario then just straight up 4vball.

I still stand by that nova is the only burst (other than maybe proxy). If you can show me a group realistically getting all of those to time correctly to act as a burst then I will believe you, but there is no way I could ever realistically see that happening in a 4vball. Obviously since apparently you were talking about the 4 having a faction stack with them, then that's a different story as they will be more preoccupied. But even then, you are telling me that 4 players can do all of those in a reasonable time period to still be considered burst while they also have to keep themselves alive and maintain resources? No way. I'd have to see it to believe it.

I can tell you right now that no group in this game could place all of those at the same time while keeping themselves alive and activating the synergies at the right time. It's literally not possible.

"When you mention that Gravity crush is the only burst, with all due respect, you have alot to learn about the game mechanics in the game."
You wonder why people always target you on the forums. Like, come on man.

Even if those numbers are true, I could survive that solo in the right situation. And there is no way you are gonna hit more than like 3 people with the nova and liquid lightning.

Damn, I really need to edit a video.

We had a group of 3 harmony dk's, a sorc, and templar heals with novas, we had mystic orbs etc. Like we literally just had synergies popping every second lol.

Actually here are a couple of random clips... they don't show our dk train though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6doJekmU_8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJw5LviKsdg

frozywozy

LeifErickson wrote: »

Can you show me some screenshots of you hitting those kind of numbers on ball groups? I have never seen numbers that high before. I've talked to a lot of different people and the highest I've ever heard someone get hit for a nova was 12k from a harmony build. Not saying those numbers aren't possible, but I've just never seen them.

The Best Gravity Crush we've got I believe was 26k (on a pug with no impen gear most likely).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_XlGO9Jn8o

And you said 100k per player. Did you mean per group or are you saying they are doing a collective 400k damage?

100k damage dealt to each player of the enemy group in range, not dealt by each player of the group of 4.

And I'm guessing you meant impale and not ignite or which one is ignite?

Ignite is the synergy from talons, the name was changed from Impale at some point to differentiate the nb's execute.

But even then, you are telling me that 4 players can do all of those in a reasonable time period to still be considered burst while they also have to keep themselves alive and maintain resources? No way. I'd have to see it to believe it.

I can tell you right now that no group in this game could place all of those at the same time while keeping themselves alive and activating the synergies at the right time. It's literally not possible.

You realize we are talking about you chasing a 16men raid with 45 friends zergers behind you right? Unless the group is composed mainly of stamina wardens (which we don't), the damage comes in waves. It is extremely easy when you are zerg surfing to watch the coordinatation of a ballgroup and know when to hit. Here are different key elements :

1) Proxies
2) Storms
3) Negates
4) Movement

You simply have to wait for the right opportunity to counter-push and hit the ballgroup when he's weak.

Now let say that on the way, people potatoed and the bomb blade got perma stunned and the sorc got rooted under a negate with no stamina to dodge roll out because you messed up your combo and you aren't patient enough to try again the next 20 available windows that will come up during the next 5mins as the 16men ballgroup keeps getting chased by the 50men zerg :

1) 2 Proxies : 12k
3) Ignite : 12k
4) Shackle : 14k
5) Gravity Crush : 20k

Total : 58k to every player in range (I won't even talk about the VD procs and the damage done by the 45 other zerglings)

LeifErickson

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Can you show me some screenshots of you hitting those kind of numbers on ball groups? I have never seen numbers that high before. I've talked to a lot of different people and the highest I've ever heard someone get hit for a nova was 12k from a harmony build. Not saying those numbers aren't possible, but I've just never seen them.

The Best Gravity Crush I believe was 26k (on a pug with no impen gear most likely).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_XlGO9Jn8o

And you said 100k per player. Did you mean per group or are you saying they are doing a collective 400k damage?

100k damage dealt to each player of the enemy group in range, not dealt by each player of the group of 4.

And I'm guessing you meant impale and not ignite or which one is ignite?

Ignite is the synergy from talons, the name was changed from Impale at some point to differentiate the nb's execute.

But even then, you are telling me that 4 players can do all of those in a reasonable time period to still be considered burst while they also have to keep themselves alive and maintain resources? No way. I'd have to see it to believe it.

I can tell you right now that no group in this game could place all of those at the same time while keeping themselves alive and activating the synergies at the right time. It's literally not possible.

You realize we are talking about you chasing a 16men raid with 45 friends zergers behind you right? Unless the group is composed mainly of stamina wardens (which we don't), the damage comes in waves. It is extremely easy when you are zerg surfing to watch the coordinatation of a ballgroup and know when to hit. Here are different key elements :

1) Proxies
2) Storms
3) Negates
4) Movement

You simply have to wait for the right opportunity to counter-push and hit the ballgroup when he's weak.

Now let say that on the way, people potatoed and the bomb blade got perma stunned and the sorc got rooted under a negate with no stamina to dodge roll out because you messed up your combo and you aren't patient enough to try again the next 20 available windows that will come up during the next 5mins as the 16men ballgroup keeps getting chased by the 50men zerg :

1) 2 Proxies : 12k
3) Ignite : 12k
4) Shackle : 14k
5) Gravity Crush : 20k

Total : 58k to every player in range (I won't even talk about the VD procs and the damage done by the 45 other zerglings)

So if the highest ever is 26k then 20k isn't a very modest number is it?

We are arguing over nothing. I thought from your first post you meant that a 4 man could kill a ball group by themselves. You obviously didn't mean that.

LeifErickson

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

When I said 4 players can wipe a ballgroup, I was reffering to 4 players zerg surfing on top of 50 players which we fight on the daily basis. Sometimes guild groups will even be part of that and give us quite a challenge when its the case.

When you mention that Gravity crush is the only burst, with all due respect, you have alot to learn about the game mechanics in the game. Every damaging element I mentioned is part of the burst and if you time it well when a ballgroup is already kiting alot of damage from your zerg, you can drastically change the fight.

Let see how much damage you can do per player average during a 5 seconds window and I'll be modest here :

1) 4 Proxies : 32k
2) Ignite : 12k
3) Shackle : 14k
4) Lightning Flood : 10k
5) Gravity Crush : 20k
6) Storm : 12k

Total : 100k damage per player (average)

Can you show me some screenshots of you hitting those kind of numbers on ball groups? I have never seen numbers that high before. I've talked to a lot of different people and the highest I've ever heard someone get hit for a nova was 12k from a harmony build. Not saying those numbers aren't possible, but I've just never seen them. And you said 100k per player. Did you mean per group or are you saying they are doing a collective 400k damage?

And I'm guessing you meant impale and not ignite or which one is ignite?

And 4 players zerg surfing is a completely different scenario then just straight up 4vball.

I still stand by that nova is the only burst (other than maybe proxy). If you can show me a group realistically getting all of those to time correctly to act as a burst then I will believe you, but there is no way I could ever realistically see that happening in a 4vball. Obviously since apparently you were talking about the 4 having a faction stack with them, then that's a different story as they will be more preoccupied. But even then, you are telling me that 4 players can do all of those in a reasonable time period to still be considered burst while they also have to keep themselves alive and maintain resources? No way. I'd have to see it to believe it.

I can tell you right now that no group in this game could place all of those at the same time while keeping themselves alive and activating the synergies at the right time. It's literally not possible.

"When you mention that Gravity crush is the only burst, with all due respect, you have alot to learn about the game mechanics in the game."
You wonder why people always target you on the forums. Like, come on man.

Even if those numbers are true, I could survive that solo in the right situation. And there is no way you are gonna hit more than like 3 people with the nova and liquid lightning.

Damn, I really need to edit a video.

We had a group of 3 harmony dk's, a sorc, and templar heals with novas, we had mystic orbs etc. Like we literally just had synergies popping every second lol.

Actually here are a couple of random clips... they don't show our dk train though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6doJekmU_8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJw5LviKsdg

It's hard to tell exactly how hard you are hitting, but I'm not seeing any 20ks or anything. Highest I saw was 14k which is a long ways off unless it was from a shackle or something.

IxSTALKERxI

frozywozy wrote: »

The Best Gravity Crush we've got I believe was 26k (on a pug with no impen gear most likely).

Weak!

IxSTALKERxI

LeifErickson wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.

When I said 4 players can wipe a ballgroup, I was reffering to 4 players zerg surfing on top of 50 players which we fight on the daily basis. Sometimes guild groups will even be part of that and give us quite a challenge when its the case.

When you mention that Gravity crush is the only burst, with all due respect, you have alot to learn about the game mechanics in the game. Every damaging element I mentioned is part of the burst and if you time it well when a ballgroup is already kiting alot of damage from your zerg, you can drastically change the fight.

Let see how much damage you can do per player average during a 5 seconds window and I'll be modest here :

1) 4 Proxies : 32k
2) Ignite : 12k
3) Shackle : 14k
4) Lightning Flood : 10k
5) Gravity Crush : 20k
6) Storm : 12k

Total : 100k damage per player (average)

Can you show me some screenshots of you hitting those kind of numbers on ball groups? I have never seen numbers that high before. I've talked to a lot of different people and the highest I've ever heard someone get hit for a nova was 12k from a harmony build. Not saying those numbers aren't possible, but I've just never seen them. And you said 100k per player. Did you mean per group or are you saying they are doing a collective 400k damage?

And I'm guessing you meant impale and not ignite or which one is ignite?

And 4 players zerg surfing is a completely different scenario then just straight up 4vball.

I still stand by that nova is the only burst (other than maybe proxy). If you can show me a group realistically getting all of those to time correctly to act as a burst then I will believe you, but there is no way I could ever realistically see that happening in a 4vball. Obviously since apparently you were talking about the 4 having a faction stack with them, then that's a different story as they will be more preoccupied. But even then, you are telling me that 4 players can do all of those in a reasonable time period to still be considered burst while they also have to keep themselves alive and maintain resources? No way. I'd have to see it to believe it.

I can tell you right now that no group in this game could place all of those at the same time while keeping themselves alive and activating the synergies at the right time. It's literally not possible.

"When you mention that Gravity crush is the only burst, with all due respect, you have alot to learn about the game mechanics in the game."
You wonder why people always target you on the forums. Like, come on man.

Even if those numbers are true, I could survive that solo in the right situation. And there is no way you are gonna hit more than like 3 people with the nova and liquid lightning.

Damn, I really need to edit a video.

We had a group of 3 harmony dk's, a sorc, and templar heals with novas, we had mystic orbs etc. Like we literally just had synergies popping every second lol.

Actually here are a couple of random clips... they don't show our dk train though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6doJekmU_8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJw5LviKsdg

It's hard to tell exactly how hard you are hitting, but I'm not seeing any 20ks or anything. Highest I saw was 14k which is a long ways off unless it was from a shackle or something.

Pause the 2nd video at 29s and there was a 31.5k i think. The first vid, I was the one who synergized the nova while he synergized my talons and standard so can't see the nova in that one. As emp we get 40k+ lol.

frozywozy

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

The Best Gravity Crush we've got I believe was 26k (on a pug with no impen gear most likely).

Weak!

There you go. Sad that we have to actually bring screenshots to prove game mechanics that have been around for how long now? Summerset got released in March I believe?

LeifErickson

frozywozy wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

The Best Gravity Crush we've got I believe was 26k (on a pug with no impen gear most likely).

Weak!

There you go. Sad that we have to actually bring screenshots to prove game mechanics that have been around for how long now? Summerset got released in March I believe?

LOL I specifically said against ball groups and you said a modest 20k for gravity crush. These numbers are not on ball group players, they are on pugs.

Elong

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

The Best Gravity Crush we've got I believe was 26k (on a pug with no impen gear most likely).

Weak!

There you go. Sad that we have to actually bring screenshots to prove game mechanics that have been around for how long now? Summerset got released in March I believe?

LOL I specifically said against ball groups and you said a modest 20k for gravity crush. These numbers are not on ball group players, they are on pugs.

If someone was in my raid and got hit for 30k+ gravity crush, they wouldn't be running that set up for very long or I wouldn't be running with them. Let alone the obvious VD bait they present to the group.

frozywozy

LeifErickson wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

The Best Gravity Crush we've got I believe was 26k (on a pug with no impen gear most likely).

Weak!

There you go. Sad that we have to actually bring screenshots to prove game mechanics that have been around for how long now? Summerset got released in March I believe?

LOL I specifically said against ball groups and you said a modest 20k for gravity crush. These numbers are not on ball group players, they are on pugs.

I don't think you watched the GvG video I linked above right? Those aren't pugs.

Also, the number on a pug would be the 35k linked in the screenshot above as you requested. Seriously, we are giving you free lessons about how the game works, something that most elitist players would keep for themselves.

The main point was not if a gravity crush hit for 2k, for 12k, for 20k or for 35k on a member of a 16men raid. The point was that with 4 pro players who know what they're doing, you can drastically change the turn of a fight when you are zerg surfing against an organized group.

I suggest that we simply move on from this conversation and go back to the maneuvers's subject.

LeifErickson

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Speed was ridiculously overpowered and needed a nerf. It sucks that class skills got nerfed as well but speed pots and swift were dumb. Lots of people were saying that speed pots only got nerfed because of swift. In my opinion, speed pots have been overpowered for a long time and needed to be nerfed too.

Yeah I agree. Immovable/speed pots have been OP for years lol. The swift / forwad momentum builds needed to be dealt with, it was impossible to lock down players in towers who kept all buffs up.

frozywozy wrote: »

I personally think that Forward Momentum was fine the way it was. It should not have been nerfed. We need more ways to deal with snares and their effect need to be diminished, not only their duration.

You can find in my signature and in several posts addressing the PTS different ideas to balance the problem :

- Add potions that provide snares immunity
- Increase the snare immunity duration of Shuffle on pair with Forward Momentum (pre-nerf)
- Change the useless morph of Mist form to the following : Remove the CC immunity, keep the Snare immunity and also let you cast abilities (Magicka forward momentum)
- Bring diminishing returns to the game (first time you get snared : full duration, second time after using a snare removal in a 5seconds period : half duration, third time after using a snare removal in a 5seconds period : immune for 5 seconds). This could also be valid for any root and imbalance / disorient effects.

Removing Retreating maneuvers from the game would literally kill ballgroups in any openfield scenario.
Zergs would dominate Cyrodiil with no counter.

Snare immunity is extremely powerful and shouldn't be too easily accessible in my opinion. I don't agree with some of the changes in mirkmire, but I also don't agree with some of your suggestions either.

Here is what I would do:

1. Add a speed cap to run speed (movement while casting abilities) similar to how there is a speed cap for sprint speed. This would allow more build diversity as player could choose between major expedition buff or stacking swift jewlery whilst having a cap so they can't do both.

2. Make shuffle a flat 4 second immunity same as forward momentum.

3. Make major expedition buffs 5 seconds instead of 4 seconds to encourage players to use a rotation.

4. Decrease maneuvers to target cap of 12. I believe 6 is too extreme. Twelve is perfect for PVP and PVE balance. I'm sure groups will adapt just fine with a target cap of 12 and it will be more balanced and open up more counter-play opportunities.

5. Decrease potency of all snares by 25%. EG. 30% & 45% etc instead of 40% / 60% etc

As for mistform I agree that one of the morphs is useless, but I wouldn't make it a magicka forward momentum. I think a cool idea would be instead of granting major expedition, it snares enemies within 6m by 30%. lol. Like the opposite of mist form, kinda a trolly but sticking with the offensive theme of poison mist. After playing ice warden there is something really satisfying about snaring people to get away rather than just using speed.

But yeah, be careful with snare immunity, you don't wanna hand it out for free. Snares are really important imo.

frozywozy wrote: »

They just nerfed Dark Deal precisely to affect ballgroups without nerfing small scalling too much. I think that was the right approach to address the ingoing issue. Reducing the amount of people speed affects will just instantly kill any kind of organized group plays. Zergs would be massing left and right without any counter whatsoever.

It's not that bad tbh. As a support player in raid you can't really spam dark deal anyway because it takes too long, so the passive stam over time isn't such a bad thing. In small scale it was much more advantageous to LOS and spam it a few times between opponents. It's still easy to sustain due to itemization anyway.

frozywozy wrote: »

This being said, there are key roles in the game that can change the course of a fight if played well while zerg surfing against an organized group. First is the bomb blade, second is a negate sorc, third is a warden with the frozen gate and last and not the least is the dk with the grip. Each of them, independently and if timed properly can influence the battle and get several players killed. Most people have seen me achieve this times and times again with my bomb blade.

If you can get a few friends to join you, the best comp to totally destroy a ballgroup and I mean kill all of them is made of only 4 players. One bomb blade, one negate sorc, one magdk and one templar of any spec.

1) 4 Proxies
2) One storm
3) One banner
4) One negate
5) One nova
6) Combination of synergies with harmony (ignite, shackle, gravity crush, lightning flood and if you really want to, energy orb)

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

I ran harmony groups when summerset came out and it's really OP. Would need to be LOS or stealth bomb, head to head you would need dumb luck but I have actually done it lol.

In his post he specified zerg surfing also, destroying enemy groups while zerg surfing has been pretty easy since like one tamriel tbh.

Sorry I missed this post. I think you should make more videos of those kind of fights because it would be really interesting to see especially if you are only using 4 people and are blowing up good groups.

But a stealth bomb really has no skill to it at all. This was proven when literally any player in the game could put on the original mageblade bomb build and wipe large amounts of people instantly. It would still be interesting to watch but a more drawn out fight where both sides are actively fighting (not one side just getting ganked) would be great to see in full.