Werewolf Kit TOO STRONG

wheem_ESO

Sharee wrote: »

How about 3 stamina nightblades with DW/double enchants+bleed procs? They would melt you just as fast as the WW's, probably faster since they can even use their class kit, and would have way better survivability with shade and cloak.

Until someone comes along that can counter cloak well, then the NB's tend to be easier to kill. Too bad such a thing can't really be done well on my Magicka Warden.

Sharee wrote: »

Case in point:

Yep, bleeds are indeed over the top, especially if the person using them has master weapons and offensive set(s). Combine it with Torug's + Infused and it's really quite dumb. I still wouldn't say it had "nothing" to do with WW though, since for random groups they become basically unkillable with the self heals being so big/spammable. In a premade with some focus firing it might be a different story, but I've seen a lot of WW that are harder to bring down than dedicated healers are (at least the healers can't move nearly as fast).

But I'll reiterate; I'm not specifically saying that werewolves need immediate nerfs. I'm simply pointing out that, as it stands right now on the live (PC) servers, there are some WW builds that end up being really overpowered. It's very possible that some much needed nerfs to Torug's Pact and/or Enchants would completely rectify the problem, and perhaps even swing things too much in the other direction. As long as the currently popular build(s) remain as they are, though, it's basically impossible to get a feel for whether or not WW itself is balanced in PvP.

Sharee

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Until someone comes along that can counter cloak well, then the NB's tend to be easier to kill.

No way in hell. Port to shade (behind a wall, or up a cliff once they fix it) -> cloak. Completely uncounterable.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

But I'll reiterate; I'm not specifically saying that werewolves need immediate nerfs. I'm simply pointing out that, as it stands right now on the live (PC) servers, there are some WW builds that end up being really overpowered.

And i'm pointing out that using the same equipment that makes those WWs overpowered, basically any stamina build would be overpowered, and likely more so. They may not have the raw heal, but they more than make up for it in utility.

Chrlynsch

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Self-Healing:
In order to get any decent self heal from Hircine´s Bounty you´ve to fulfil two things:
1. A high health pool = As soon as you dip below 30k HP, the self heal starts becoming mediocre. On average I´ll heal around 6-7k without any kind of healing debuffs applied to me while in battlegrounds. When it crits I´ll heal for around 10k assuming I´m once again not affected by defiles. However, the heal uses spell-critical to determine how often it crits, and therefore you´ll rarely see it crit.

2. The "right morph" = If you want to have a good heal you are almost forced to pick Hircine´s Fortitude. You´ll get a much stronger heal, but you´ll trade that for major brutality. Sure you can use potions to compensate, but there´re much better potions to use in PvP rather than brutality potions.

It seems like a majority of the WW I see are well below 30k HP, and their self healing is still quite huge. I've yet to see any other class, besides maybe a Magicka Templar spamming Breath of Life, self heal as well as a Werewolf. And just how many abilities are there that'll insta-heal for 6-7k non-crit in Battlegrounds?

Qbiken wrote: »

A werewolf building for a good sustained and good heal will definitely lose out on damage. Werewolf has a "natural" offensive approach in their skilline to begin with, but it´s usually not enough to kill anyone who knows what they´re doing.

The offensive skill line was pretty irrelevant to the group I was referring to (and most other WW that I've run into recently, as well). I encountered them in multiple different matches, and never once got hit with a Roar. It was nothing but Claws of Anguish and light attacks, mixed with some fears here and there. My death recaps vs them were, on more than one occasion, made up 100% of Damage Health procs, and I saw at least one person say the same in party chat.

Qbiken wrote: »

As Sharee said, you can´t have it all on a werewolf. You can always aim for a balance between offense, defence and sustain, but in the end of the day you'll not be able to achieve godlike stats on all those things. There´s one way it´s almost possible, but that option is not viable in battlegrounds.

With Torug's Pact and enchant damage on bleeds, you absolutely can have it all. Most WW that I see are melting people (even without 2 other WW light attacking the same target), while being one of the toughest targets for groups of randoms to kill.

I see both you and Sharee are agreeing that Torug's Pact is a problem, which is why I mentioned that it may not be necessary to actually nerf the WW offensive skills themselves. But 3 WW light attacking with super frequent Oblivion enchants was beyond ridiculous, especially since that damage was going right through shields ('course, the light attacks and free bleeds were taking shields down instantly anyway).

If the WW that were sustaining massive heal spam had poor damage, it wouldn't be an issue. If they were able to get good damage by building differently and actually making use of offensive abilities, while having reduced self healing capability, that'd also be fine. But as it stands right now, virtually all of the WW I'm seeing are eschewing Roar all together in favor wrecking people with light attacks, defile, and bleed/enchant procs, along with giant self healing that's very sustainable.

Werewolf is a really strong tool in the right hands. But like all tools they have a specific purpose and can't do everything without sacrificing something, you seem to be putting paws on a pedestal.

Your speaking strictly BG, 4 man group content so lets limit our discussion to scenarios found there. We will avoid talking about universal Gear and set combos because that has nothing to do with werewolf and its kit.

Werewolves only have 5 abilities, and the majority of their passives get stripped away, before reintroducing the werewolf ones. Their netch is tanky Single Target melee damage. Thus they are strong in 1v1 and Xv1 situations.

Healing: A werewolf can take a lot of damage for a little amount of time. They have no magic bonuses or magic sustain bonuses. The average heal of a werewolf is around 6-7k (7-9k) without crit. Their heal crit is based off of spell crit and will cost roughly 4k magicka per heal. They burn up their healing in 3-4 casts. This is their heal, their survial skill, they have no streak, no stacked hots, no shields, no reflects, no cloak, no purge, no clense, and no snare removal. For heal boosting purposes, no major/minor mending. The biggest weakness is their self heal. In group play a pack of wolves are responsible for their own healthpool, there is no group vigor, no healing ward, no breath of life. So the higher ratio of wolves you have the less aoe and heals your group gets diminishes.

It seams your real quarrel is what torugs brings to the table.

Flame_of_Hades

WW is only really broken when they enter the IC with imperial phy.... not in duels and BGs. Recently, Fengrush was running a full damage WW in BGs, and it was horrifying to fight, those light attacks were hitting me for 7-8k (6/7 light, 1 impen, so take it as you will), BUT he traded his ability to survive for that much damage. the only reason he could live was because of his guardPlar.

Although.... thinking about it... (cyro) emp + imperial phy... = 20-30k heals..... that could be fun.

Gravord

Hol up. Are you seriously considering 29 kills with 2 !!! deaths in a group play as amazing result and ask for nerfs?

jediodyn_ESO

Honestly guard + healer v PUG OP, not WW. WW is actually weak as an ultimate unless you have great group support, which kinda really disappoints. I liked it so much better when it was more of a “run away from me for 15 seconds or die” thing.

TheYKcid

WW annoys me for the same reason that petsorcs do—not the best of the best per se, but still disproportionately effective for the low amount of input required to play one. I don't think they're overpowered though.

Qbiken

TheYKcid wrote: »

WW annoys me for the same reason that petsorcs do—not the best of the best per se, but still disproportionately effective for the low amount of input required to play one. I don't think they're overpowered though.

If your statement is regarding PvE I agree with you (even though there´re people that disagree with me that PvE Werewolf is "easy-mode")

For PvP it depends on what context you place the werewolf in:

* Solo/Open-World PvP: Werewolfs doesn´t make good solo builds. Inability to get rid of snares and defiles are the two biggest pain-points for them. Outnumbered/1vX as a Werewolf rarely ends in the favour for the Werewolf. In BG´s if you´re focused down by 2 players you´re a free kill in most cases.

* Duelling/1v1: I would say werewolfs are fairly strong in this context. But any good player with some experience in duelling will without too much trouble take down a werewolf in a 1v1.

* Small-scale/Group PvP: This is the context of where you´ll see people QQ about werewolfs overperforming. But group-play is also were WW´s shines the most. Werewolf is an interesting "sub-class" due to it´s incredibly good ability to perform well in a group (especially with other werewolfs), but can be quite miserable when played alone.

Danklord

OP seems to have not paid attention at all. Fengrush is not your average ESO pvper. Hes far out off the average dudes league, by the top end players. Also he had like 3 ppls supporting him with buffs, heals and CC, they did almost no damage. He did the entire teams damage in a build that would die in a millisecond without the pocket support of his 3 friends.

He has ALOT of streams and videos where he has pocket supports owning it up. I do agree tho, WW is in a very good spot atm.

hesobad

RedTalon wrote: »

With a proper counter team he melts, well een a raw damage team would melt that...pophealer first then melt then leave the guard alone to force them to take time to regroup and can keep popping them

So what do you do when youre in a game solo and going against a werewolf comp with a dedicated healer? Guard healers are a HUGE issue also, but there is no better class to guard than a good sorc werewolf. the kit is too powerful

Sharee

[nvm]