Werewolf Kit TOO STRONG

idk

brandonv516 wrote: »

Yep pocket healer running Transmutation, Earthgore, Shards, Purge, Guard.

Nothing overpowered, nothing surprising. Still comes down to having a good group and/or terrible competition.

I could show the video of me getting 2.4m heals in BGs but it would probably bore you.

and with a good group everything shines.

BP_Sparty

Yes please nerf the werewolf, I got exposed in a video by this blasted werewolf lord. I am just a humble dragonknight trying to fend off plague of healbots in battleground and I don't want to get exposed by werewolves anymore. So please remember to nerf werewolf they are to strong for me

keevil111

This game is meant to be played with a group, ffs.

Group play is encouraged.

Certain builds are nothing without proper group setup.

[Snip]
[edited to remove bait]

WuffyCerulei

The werewolf roar you posted is out of date. They increased the amount of enemies you can fear to 6. One morph applies Major Fracture, and the other sets enemies off balance. No longer gives major brutality.

Rizz_the_Filthy_Dino

Carebears gonna cry, werewolves don't even get an execute lol.

Aznox

This thread

I'm no going to argue about Werewolf being too strong in Battlegrounds. (I'll let the statistics of Werewolf encounters in high MMR BG talk for me).

hesobad wrote: »

Guys say what you want, I'm 100% right here and you can not convince me otherwise.

I'm not going to try and convince you, i'm writing this for those reading this topic that might be interested.

You guys are saying I'm wrong, go look at the werewolf kit! I have a stam sorc werewolf and I can't sit here and say that it is not OP.

Obviously you are knowledgeable about Werewolf, highly unlikely for you to make wrong statements, but allow me to check on behalf of people that might not know as much as you.

Pact Leader makes it so that it is more difficult for classes to target the player werewolf, ESO has targeting issues to begin with. This is also why you see Magic Sorcs with Engine guardian, they can use the npc as a shield due to the targeting issue

Woops, Fengrush isn't using that morph in the video, a good portion of that 2.4 mil being from spreading enhanced bleeds all over the place.

Roar with bloodlust to terrify up to 3 nearby enemies, fearing them for 3.3 seconds and setting them Off Balance for 5 seconds.
You and your allies gain Major Brutality, increasing your Weapon Damage by 20% for [X] seconds..
Increases Weapon Damage of nearby allies.
^ off balance is a damage increase and not needed to be added to a fear which is long and good enough!

Woops, wrong morph again, he is using the one with major fracture. About the Off-balance morph (of which you got the old description), let me remind you that exploiter passive is not active in no-CP, and as such this status effect only increases damage from heavy attacks. Oh and the main reason to choose this morph is for stamina sustain, but here Fengrush doesn't care because he has, well, two f*cking dedicated supports in his premade.



I'm going to stop there on the skill analysis, because obviously you are not really interested in why Werewolf can work in Battleground, otherwise you would have noticed Fengrush's build in this video was not even optimal for performing BG stomps : his Blood Moon doesn't even procs more than once or twice during the video.

If anyone else here is genuinely interested in making werewolf work in a (realistic) battleground environment, or if unlike OP you are ready to make the effort to understand how werewolf works to increase your chances against them, feel free to ask.

Rizz_the_Filthy_Dino

Aznox wrote: »

This thread

I'm no going to argue about Werewolf being too strong in Battlegrounds. (I'll let the statistics of Werewolf encounters in high MMR BG talk for me).

hesobad wrote: »

Guys say what you want, I'm 100% right here and you can not convince me otherwise.

I'm not going to try and convince you, i'm writing this for those reading this topic that might be interested.

You guys are saying I'm wrong, go look at the werewolf kit! I have a stam sorc werewolf and I can't sit here and say that it is not OP.

Obviously you are knowledgeable about Werewolf, highly unlikely for you to make wrong statements, but allow me to check on behalf of people that might not know as much as you.

Pact Leader makes it so that it is more difficult for classes to target the player werewolf, ESO has targeting issues to begin with. This is also why you see Magic Sorcs with Engine guardian, they can use the npc as a shield due to the targeting issue

Woops, Fengrush isn't using that morph in the video, a good portion of that 2.4 mil being from spreading enhanced bleeds all over the place.

Roar with bloodlust to terrify up to 3 nearby enemies, fearing them for 3.3 seconds and setting them Off Balance for 5 seconds.
You and your allies gain Major Brutality, increasing your Weapon Damage by 20% for [X] seconds..
Increases Weapon Damage of nearby allies.
^ off balance is a damage increase and not needed to be added to a fear which is long and good enough!

Woops, wrong morph again, he is using the one with major fracture. About the Off-balance morph (of which you got the old description), let me remind you that exploiter passive is not active in no-CP, and as such this status effect only increases damage from heavy attacks. Oh and the main reason to choose this morph is for stamina sustain, but here Fengrush doesn't care because he has, well, two f*cking dedicated supports in his premade.



I'm going to stop there on the skill analysis, because obviously you are not really interested in why Werewolf can work in Battleground, otherwise you would have noticed Fengrush's build in this video was not even optimal for performing BG stomps : his Blood Moon doesn't even procs more than once or twice during the video.

If anyone else here is genuinely interested in making werewolf work in a (realistic) battleground environment, or if unlike OP you are ready to make the effort to understand how werewolf works to increase your chances against them, feel free to ask.

You didn't quote me in this though

DemonDruaga

Why even bother to cry about a organized group?

ATomiX96

just to clarify, "the youtuber" was getting pocket healed, ofc you can just go all out if you are playing against full random teams of which one even left mid video. Try that yourself in BGs and you get stomped within seconds. Werewolf kit got a well deserved balance adjustment and bug-fixes with wolfhunter and is in a good spot now.

Mihael

My problem with werewolves in bgs is that they can keep ww up for almost the whole bg, idc if wws do a lot of damage it’s an ultimate it’s supposed to that but you shouldn’t be able to do for the whole game. There are so many times I encounter players that are completely useless outside of ww but when it’s active they can actually pressure you. This wouldn’t be a problem it it only lasted a bit but that’s not the case in bgs

MaxJrFTW

Left that game the moment i saw him heading for me. Masochism isn't my thing, and werewolf + pocket healer is just too much. Killing a werewolf 1v1 is hard as hell, werewolf with a pocket healer = gg. Personally i think they have to nerf their defense. The dmg itself is not that big of a deal.

Arkangeloski

hesobad wrote: »

So a well known youtuber recently released a video showing how he reached 2.4 mil damage in a BG. He racked somewhere around 30 or more kills in the video exploiting the strengths of werewolf in a no CP environment. Is this intended ZOS? In my opinion, this something that all players should be using in BGs, because it is far too effective for people not to be using. Will you look into this issue and make adjustments? This person obviously knows how to exploit game mechanics, what if everyone used that build and pulled damage like that? Werewolf needs to be addressed! It's far too strong in the right hands

Lets look at the WW kit!

Pact Leader makes it so that it is more difficult for classes to target the player werewolf, ESO has targeting issues to begin with. This is also why you see Magic Sorcs with Engine guardian, they can use the npc as a shield due to the targeting issue.

Roar with bloodlust to terrify up to 3 nearby enemies, fearing them for 3.3 seconds and setting them Off Balance for 5 seconds.
You and your allies gain Major Brutality, increasing your Weapon Damage by 20% for [X] seconds..
Increases Weapon Damage of nearby allies.
^ off balance is a damage increase and not needed to be added to a fear which is long and good enough! Plus the Major Brutality. This skill does too much

Crush enemy with a deafening howl, dealing 8291 Physical Damage.
Deals 30% more damage to enemies that are feared.
Deals more damage to enemies that are feared.
^Far too much synergy with the fear + off balance and a base damage that is too high

Werewolf Claws of Anguish apply Major Defile which has been an issue for a very long time in PvP. Why do WW get access to it???

Savage Strength passive scales ridiculously well. This kit is just too effective in no CP. Guys say what you want, I'm 100% right here and you can not convince me otherwise. Also sure you could say that he only is doing this because he is in a pre made with a pocket healer. Okay that is true, however he can take his pre made and fight against teams that are not pre made and absolutely wreck them. The BG system is flawed. The incoming speed nerfs will not nerf werewolf, it will indirectly buff werewolf because other classes will not be able to kite werewolfs.


They can bring WW in line by taking away the Major Defile, never should have been there to begin with. Take away the off balance from the fear. Reduce the damage of Howl of Agony

Off balance does not give you anything extra on bg's other than the heavy attack resource return or stun depending on his or hers cc imunity and you don't get the 10 percent of the exploiter passive due to cp being disabled, with that said any class can be op on the right hands and, it's an ulti after all it should be strong.

Arkangeloski

Qbiken wrote: »

I don´t even know where to begin........

Here´s the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X17oxHu6G4

1. He´s using Molag Kena + Bloodmoon + Ravager if you´re interested in his setup.

2. His setup is build purely for damage and can´t survive on its own. Without a pocket healer + guard, Fengrush is dead in a matter of milliseconds in that setup (werewolf should be played in group with support so not implying that there´s anything wrong with what he´s doing). That werewolf is effective only because he´s got a templar healing and guarding him. The only issue you want to address in this video is how strong and broken guard is.

3. No exploits going on in this video, it just shows how well werewolf synergise with group play and additional support.

Do you realize that is fengrush right? He is not average Joe... He is one of the most skilled players in ESO and he is using his main character... He is the reason why stamsorcs are popular since the end of times.

Qbiken

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Left that game the moment i saw him heading for me. Masochism isn't my thing, and werewolf + pocket healer is just too much. Killing a werewolf 1v1 is hard as hell, werewolf with a pocket healer = gg. Personally i think they have to nerf their defense. The dmg itself is not that big of a deal.

I´m curious what part of the WW-defense you find to be overperforming?

Arkangeloski wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

I don´t even know where to begin........

Here´s the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X17oxHu6G4

1. He´s using Molag Kena + Bloodmoon + Ravager if you´re interested in his setup.

2. His setup is build purely for damage and can´t survive on its own. Without a pocket healer + guard, Fengrush is dead in a matter of milliseconds in that setup (werewolf should be played in group with support so not implying that there´s anything wrong with what he´s doing). That werewolf is effective only because he´s got a templar healing and guarding him. The only issue you want to address in this video is how strong and broken guard is.

3. No exploits going on in this video, it just shows how well werewolf synergise with group play and additional support.

Do you realize who that is fengrush? He is not average Joe... He is one of the most skilled players in ESO and he is using his main character... He is the reason why stamsorcs are popular since the end of times.

Where in my response did you find me discredit Fengrush as not being a skilled player? All I´m saying is that the setup he´s running in that BG wouldn´t survive without support from a healer.

ecru

Arkangeloski wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

I don´t even know where to begin........

Here´s the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X17oxHu6G4

1. He´s using Molag Kena + Bloodmoon + Ravager if you´re interested in his setup.

2. His setup is build purely for damage and can´t survive on its own. Without a pocket healer + guard, Fengrush is dead in a matter of milliseconds in that setup (werewolf should be played in group with support so not implying that there´s anything wrong with what he´s doing). That werewolf is effective only because he´s got a templar healing and guarding him. The only issue you want to address in this video is how strong and broken guard is.

3. No exploits going on in this video, it just shows how well werewolf synergise with group play and additional support.

Do you realize that is fengrush right? He is not average Joe... He is one of the most skilled players in ESO and he is using his main character... He is the reason why stamsorcs are popular since the end of times.

uh yeah he's hitting like two buttons over and over again

hesobad

Rizz_the_Filthy_Dino wrote: »

Carebears gonna cry, werewolves don't even get an execute lol.

they don't need one, they have major defile. and actually they do have an execute IF they are a sorc which most are

Nord_Raseri

Step away from my werewolf. take any and all whines for nerfs and stuff them in a deep hole far away from prying eyes. that is all. have a day.

Trinity_Is_My_Name

LOL! Yet another Nerf thread! Keep em coming guys!

Qbiken

hesobad wrote: »

Rizz_the_Filthy_Dino wrote: »

Carebears gonna cry, werewolves don't even get an execute lol.

they don't need one, they have major defile. and actually they do have an execute IF they are a sorc which most are

Major defile from claws of anguish last for 4 seconds. Since the skill is quite costly (together with all other werewolf skills) you can´t afford to spam it, resulting in a very low uptime on most targets. Most werewolfs have swapped to Claws of Life when ZOS reduced the duration of defile.

Implosion is probably the most unreliable passive in the game. Never procs when you want it to proc, even though it´s hilarious when it does.

RedTalon

With a proper counter team he melts, well een a raw damage team would melt that...pophealer first then melt then leave the guard alone to force them to take time to regroup and can keep popping them

Flame_of_Hades

I fought against feng in that video, and i played a match with him after his GuardPlar got off. there was a massive difference, he wasnt surviving for anywhere near as long, which he shouldn't on a glass cannon build... so its balanced

on the other hand, does some one want to explain to me how 4-5k light attacks + 10k disintegration in no-cp is fair for non-ww? ouch.... my poor light armor dk..

wheem_ESO

Qbiken wrote: »

I´m curious what part of the WW-defense you find to be overperforming?

The self healing is absurdly overpowered with the right build. Most of the Werewolves I run up against are howling for something like 30-50% hp each time, and are sustaining it pretty much indefinitely. Werewolf offense is also overpowered, in no small part due to the way dual wield enchants work (and even if you escape, as I did a few moments ago, the enchants will triple the damage of their bleed).

There's a trio of Werewolf players that are queueing together at the moment, and they're basically light attacking everyone to death with Torug's Pact. Shields are utterly worthless, and most targets are dying in a couple of seconds, with 100% of at least some death recaps being Damage Health, sometimes with an x2 next to it.

Those particular players might be really good at the game, but they don't need to be for that setup to be successful (especially vs randoms). The bulk of their damage is ignoring shields, every target is major defiled, and even Major/Minor Protection won't actually help that much.

It's cool that WW is a viable option in PvP and/or PvE, but it's most definitely overtuned at the moment (though offensive nerfs to enchants and/or bleeds may be enough for WW, rather than directly nerfing attack skills).

Sharee

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

I´m curious what part of the WW-defense you find to be overperforming?

The self healing is absurdly overpowered with the right build. Most of the Werewolves I run up against are howling for something like 30-50% hp each time, and are sustaining it pretty much indefinitely. Werewolf offense is also overpowered, in no small part due to the way dual wield enchants work (and even if you escape, as I did a few moments ago, the enchants will triple the damage of their bleed).

There's a trio of Werewolf players that are queueing together at the moment, and they're basically light attacking everyone to death with Torug's Pact. Shields are utterly worthless, and most targets are dying in a couple of seconds, with 100% of at least some death recaps being Damage Health, sometimes with an x2 next to it.

Those particular players might be really good at the game, but they don't need to be for that setup to be successful (especially vs randoms). The bulk of their damage is ignoring shields, every target is major defiled, and even Major/Minor Protection won't actually help that much.

It's cool that WW is a viable option in PvP and/or PvE, but it's most definitely overtuned at the moment (though offensive nerfs to enchants and/or bleeds may be enough for WW, rather than directly nerfing attack skills).

It is definitely not possible to have overpowered damage, overpowered healing, AND sustain the heals indefinitely.

For high damage, you need high stamina.
For high heals, you need high health.
And for infinite sustain, you need high magicka/regen(the heal is very expensive). You simply cannot have all of that at once.

If you see a WW with big heals that he can sustain indefinitely, he is built specifically for that, and his damage suffers as a consequence. He is using sets that return magicka, and sets that boost health, and gives up sets that increase damage.

Of course with broken enchants combined with torug that goes out of the window, since the WW(as well as anyone else really) can get huge damage from enchant procs, as well as magicka return. That's a problem of enchants however, not WW.

Qbiken

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

I´m curious what part of the WW-defense you find to be overperforming?

The self healing is absurdly overpowered with the right build. Most of the Werewolves I run up against are howling for something like 30-50% hp each time, and are sustaining it pretty much indefinitely. Werewolf offense is also overpowered, in no small part due to the way dual wield enchants work (and even if you escape, as I did a few moments ago, the enchants will triple the damage of their bleed).

There's a trio of Werewolf players that are queueing together at the moment, and they're basically light attacking everyone to death with Torug's Pact. Shields are utterly worthless, and most targets are dying in a couple of seconds, with 100% of at least some death recaps being Damage Health, sometimes with an x2 next to it.

Those particular players might be really good at the game, but they don't need to be for that setup to be successful (especially vs randoms). The bulk of their damage is ignoring shields, every target is major defiled, and even Major/Minor Protection won't actually help that much.

It's cool that WW is a viable option in PvP and/or PvE, but it's most definitely overtuned at the moment (though offensive nerfs to enchants and/or bleeds may be enough for WW, rather than directly nerfing attack skills).

@wheem_ESO

Self-Healing:
In order to get any decent self heal from Hircine´s Bounty you´ve to fulfil two things:
1. A high health pool = As soon as you dip below 30k HP, the self heal starts becoming mediocre. On average I´ll heal around 6-7k without any kind of healing debuffs applied to me while in battlegrounds. When it crits I´ll heal for around 10k assuming I´m once again not affected by defiles. However, the heal uses spell-critical to determine how often it crits, and therefore you´ll rarely see it crit.

2. The "right morph" = If you want to have a good heal you are almost forced to pick Hircine´s Fortitude. You´ll get a much stronger heal, but you´ll trade that for major brutality. Sure you can use potions to compensate, but there´re much better potions to use in PvP rather than brutality potions.

A werewolf building for a good sustained and good heal will definitely lose out on damage. Werewolf has a "natural" offensive approach in their skilline to begin with, but it´s usually not enough to kill anyone who knows what they´re doing.

And when it comes to werewolf and group play, that´s where they excels the most. So that trio obviously know how to get the most out of their werewolfs.

I completely agree with you regarding Torug´s Pact however. I´ve used it on my werewolf in battlegrounds and it´s pretty disgusting, but that has nothing really to do with werewolfs.

As Sharee said, you can´t have it all on a werewolf. You can always aim for a balance between offense, defence and sustain, but in the end of the day you'll not be able to achieve godlike stats on all those things. There´s one way it´s almost possible, but that option is not viable in battlegrounds.

wheem_ESO

Qbiken wrote: »

Self-Healing:
In order to get any decent self heal from Hircine´s Bounty you´ve to fulfil two things:
1. A high health pool = As soon as you dip below 30k HP, the self heal starts becoming mediocre. On average I´ll heal around 6-7k without any kind of healing debuffs applied to me while in battlegrounds. When it crits I´ll heal for around 10k assuming I´m once again not affected by defiles. However, the heal uses spell-critical to determine how often it crits, and therefore you´ll rarely see it crit.

2. The "right morph" = If you want to have a good heal you are almost forced to pick Hircine´s Fortitude. You´ll get a much stronger heal, but you´ll trade that for major brutality. Sure you can use potions to compensate, but there´re much better potions to use in PvP rather than brutality potions.

It seems like a majority of the WW I see are well below 30k HP, and their self healing is still quite huge. I've yet to see any other class, besides maybe a Magicka Templar spamming Breath of Life, self heal as well as a Werewolf. And just how many abilities are there that'll insta-heal for 6-7k non-crit in Battlegrounds?

Qbiken wrote: »

A werewolf building for a good sustained and good heal will definitely lose out on damage. Werewolf has a "natural" offensive approach in their skilline to begin with, but it´s usually not enough to kill anyone who knows what they´re doing.

The offensive skill line was pretty irrelevant to the group I was referring to (and most other WW that I've run into recently, as well). I encountered them in multiple different matches, and never once got hit with a Roar. It was nothing but Claws of Anguish and light attacks, mixed with some fears here and there. My death recaps vs them were, on more than one occasion, made up 100% of Damage Health procs, and I saw at least one person say the same in party chat.

Qbiken wrote: »

As Sharee said, you can´t have it all on a werewolf. You can always aim for a balance between offense, defence and sustain, but in the end of the day you'll not be able to achieve godlike stats on all those things. There´s one way it´s almost possible, but that option is not viable in battlegrounds.

With Torug's Pact and enchant damage on bleeds, you absolutely can have it all. Most WW that I see are melting people (even without 2 other WW light attacking the same target), while being one of the toughest targets for groups of randoms to kill.

I see both you and Sharee are agreeing that Torug's Pact is a problem, which is why I mentioned that it may not be necessary to actually nerf the WW offensive skills themselves. But 3 WW light attacking with super frequent Oblivion enchants was beyond ridiculous, especially since that damage was going right through shields ('course, the light attacks and free bleeds were taking shields down instantly anyway).

If the WW that were sustaining massive heal spam had poor damage, it wouldn't be an issue. If they were able to get good damage by building differently and actually making use of offensive abilities, while having reduced self healing capability, that'd also be fine. But as it stands right now, virtually all of the WW I'm seeing are eschewing Roar all together in favor wrecking people with light attacks, defile, and bleed/enchant procs, along with giant self healing that's very sustainable.

Sharee

wheem_ESO wrote: »

My death recaps vs them were, on more than one occasion, made up 100% of Damage Health procs, and I saw at least one person say the same in party chat.

You can hardly blame the werewolf kit for that now, can you.

wheem_ESO

Sharee wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

My death recaps vs them were, on more than one occasion, made up 100% of Damage Health procs, and I saw at least one person say the same in party chat.

You can hardly blame the werewolf kit for that now, can you.

I didn't call for blanket nerfs to the Werewolf abilities, and specifically mentioned the interactions with Torug's Pact + Enchants being an issue. It's actually really hard to tell if the WW abilities themselves need to be nerfed - or potentially even buffed - right now, since everyone can build for the huge self healing and light attack targets to death.

That said, Torug's Pact is less of an issue on some other builds. Like Magicka setups, for instance, which it was obviously designed for. What would you rather go up against, 3 Torug's Pact using Magicka builds that are attacking you only with Destro Staff light attacks, or 3 WW that are doing the same with their DW/double enchants + bleed procs? Not that I'm against blanket nerfs to Torug's Pact and/or enchants in general.

Sharee

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

My death recaps vs them were, on more than one occasion, made up 100% of Damage Health procs, and I saw at least one person say the same in party chat.

You can hardly blame the werewolf kit for that now, can you.

I didn't call for blanket nerfs to the Werewolf abilities, and specifically mentioned the interactions with Torug's Pact + Enchants being an issue. It's actually really hard to tell if the WW abilities themselves need to be nerfed - or potentially even buffed - right now, since everyone can build for the huge self healing and light attack targets to death.

That said, Torug's Pact is less of an issue on some other builds. Like Magicka setups, for instance, which it was obviously designed for. What would you rather go up against, 3 Torug's Pact using Magicka builds that are attacking you only with Destro Staff light attacks, or 3 WW that are doing the same with their DW/double enchants + bleed procs? Not that I'm against blanket nerfs to Torug's Pact and/or enchants in general.

How about 3 stamina nightblades with DW/double enchants+bleed procs? They would melt you just as fast as the WW's, probably faster since they can even use their class kit, and would have way better survivability with shade and cloak.

Case in point:

sudaki_eso

So many nerf this nerf that threads, calm donw people and l2p

Koolio

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Self-Healing:
In order to get any decent self heal from Hircine´s Bounty you´ve to fulfil two things:
1. A high health pool = As soon as you dip below 30k HP, the self heal starts becoming mediocre. On average I´ll heal around 6-7k without any kind of healing debuffs applied to me while in battlegrounds. When it crits I´ll heal for around 10k assuming I´m once again not affected by defiles. However, the heal uses spell-critical to determine how often it crits, and therefore you´ll rarely see it crit.

2. The "right morph" = If you want to have a good heal you are almost forced to pick Hircine´s Fortitude. You´ll get a much stronger heal, but you´ll trade that for major brutality. Sure you can use potions to compensate, but there´re much better potions to use in PvP rather than brutality potions.

It seems like a majority of the WW I see are well below 30k HP, and their self healing is still quite huge. I've yet to see any other class, besides maybe a Magicka Templar spamming Breath of Life, self heal as well as a Werewolf. And just how many abilities are there that'll insta-heal for 6-7k non-crit in Battlegrounds?

Qbiken wrote: »

A werewolf building for a good sustained and good heal will definitely lose out on damage. Werewolf has a "natural" offensive approach in their skilline to begin with, but it´s usually not enough to kill anyone who knows what they´re doing.

The offensive skill line was pretty irrelevant to the group I was referring to (and most other WW that I've run into recently, as well). I encountered them in multiple different matches, and never once got hit with a Roar. It was nothing but Claws of Anguish and light attacks, mixed with some fears here and there. My death recaps vs them were, on more than one occasion, made up 100% of Damage Health procs, and I saw at least one person say the same in party chat.

Qbiken wrote: »

As Sharee said, you can´t have it all on a werewolf. You can always aim for a balance between offense, defence and sustain, but in the end of the day you'll not be able to achieve godlike stats on all those things. There´s one way it´s almost possible, but that option is not viable in battlegrounds.

With Torug's Pact and enchant damage on bleeds, you absolutely can have it all. Most WW that I see are melting people (even without 2 other WW light attacking the same target), while being one of the toughest targets for groups of randoms to kill.

I see both you and Sharee are agreeing that Torug's Pact is a problem, which is why I mentioned that it may not be necessary to actually nerf the WW offensive skills themselves. But 3 WW light attacking with super frequent Oblivion enchants was beyond ridiculous, especially since that damage was going right through shields ('course, the light attacks and free bleeds were taking shields down instantly anyway).

If the WW that were sustaining massive heal spam had poor damage, it wouldn't be an issue. If they were able to get good damage by building differently and actually making use of offensive abilities, while having reduced self healing capability, that'd also be fine. But as it stands right now, virtually all of the WW I'm seeing are eschewing Roar all together in favor wrecking people with light attacks, defile, and bleed/enchant procs, along with giant self healing that's very sustainable.

Torugs pact on Console even without the changes to bleeds yet is still extremely good. I actually don’t want the glyphs to continue to proc. I only want them on my actual light attacks for more control.

Going with torugs pact I actually lose 1500 WD. They hit just about the same in PvP torugs just makes the sustain slightly better.