pre mades are out of control

hesobad

Why is it so hard to make a SOLO QUE and a GROUP QUE system? I don't understand. Do they even play their own game? This is stupid

jcm2606

They seem to have gotten worse with Wolfhunter. A friend and I both queued in a 2-man group, and consistently got matched against 3- and 4-man premades on both opposing teams, a good 6 or 7 matches in a row. You can tell they consist of premades because of the extreme level of coordination within the group. Whether it be they move as one cohesive unit, or they respond to threats within a fraction of a second (as if they were on voice comms), or they are able to focus down a single target with no falter.

Fake Remedy

you've solo queued to join a group which will fight vs other groups in a pvp arena. battlegrounds are balanced by MMR.

jcm2606

Fake Remedy wrote: »

you've solo queued to join a group which will fight vs other groups in a pvp arena. battlegrounds are balanced by MMR.

Key phrase being "solo queued". As in, I didn't queue with anybody else. If I didn't queue with anybody else, or even if I queued with one other person, I shouldn't be matched against a full 4-man premade. I am put at a distinct disadvantage for solo queuing. I have no instant communication with my team mates -- on PC at least, not sure how if console's voice comms are good or not for BGs -- while premades almost always are using some external voice comms like Discord.

This makes coordination far easier for a premade, but far harder for a solo queue. It gets to the point where it is pretty much impossible to do anything against that premade, as if you are a priority target, the entire group focuses you the moment they see you. Things like this suck the fun out of BGs for basically all solo players, making us want to just stop.

MMR is a whole 'nother topic that deserves its own thread. The MMR system, quite frankly, sucks. I only just got back into PVP, and so I'm re-learning everything, not to mention I'm playing on a class I've never played before (stamDK). And yet I queue up with a friend, and I get matched against not one, but two 4-man premades, 6 or 7 matches in a row. As I said, you can easily tell it is a premade due to the extreme level of coordination the team has. Coordination that is downright impossible without voice comms.

And that's not even touching on the many other issues with MMR. It being far too account based, it seemingly taking play time into account more so than match performance, and it simply ruining the queue for many players. From 20+ minute queues on mains yet 5 minutes queues on newer characters, to straight up dumping newer characters into a match consisting of mostly high MMR players. How do you expect somebody to learn a class for the first time if they're placed against high ranking players, some of which wearing proc sets, with a premade or two sprinkled in for good measure?

Artemiisia

Fake Remedy wrote: »

you've solo queued to join a group which will fight vs other groups in a pvp arena. battlegrounds are balanced by MMR.

if you believe that, then you really need to wake up

premades are all geared up with yellow gear, I know many that level up chars just in bgs all the time, and use crafted gear for like when they level 20 - 30 and so on

premades vs random rng group

99% you already know who will win

Fake Remedy

Artemiisia wrote: »

if you believe that, then you really need to wake up

It’s not what I or anyone who seriously plays Battlegrounds think, it’s what the developers think. MMR is their attempt to balance Battlegrounds for everyone.

Valabrog

jcm2606 wrote: »

They seem to have gotten worse with Wolfhunter. A friend and I both queued in a 2-man group, and consistently got matched against 3- and 4-man premades on both opposing teams, a good 6 or 7 matches in a row. You can tell they consist of premades because of the extreme level of coordination within the group. Whether it be they move as one cohesive unit, or they respond to threats within a fraction of a second (as if they were on voice comms), or they are able to focus down a single target with no falter.

Yea that is correct. I had similar fights yersterday - in university or other maps with lots of los and corners if I managed to jump on a guy who was left behind his group and lure him even further away, his friends were coming back on instant, find us just to heal him up and smack me. Its even more frustrating because I needed only a few seconds to get him to execute range...I think premade's most lethal weapon arent coordination but a dedicated healer..You rarelly get one in a pug and in a deathmaych its a huge advantage.

jcm2606

Valabrog wrote: »

Yea that is correct. I had similar fights yersterday - in university or other maps with lots of los and corners if I managed to jump on a guy who was left behind his group and lure him even further away, his friends were coming back on instant, find us just to heal him up and smack me. Its even more frustrating because I needed only a few seconds to get him to execute range...I think premade's most lethal weapon arent coordination but a dedicated healer..You rarelly get one in a pug and in a deathmaych its a huge advantage.

Yeah, just started running BG's again since the servers came up, each time been pitted against top tier players and premades.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

I don't know what you guys over at Zenimax have done to the queue and MMR with Wolfhunter, but it has completely broken Battlegrounds. If it continues like this, I'm just not going to even bother queuing anymore. What's the point when you get paired against teams who will obliterate you within seconds, with little to no chance at counterplay?

jcm2606

Fake Remedy wrote: »

It’s not what I or anyone who seriously plays Battlegrounds think, it’s what the developers think. MMR is their attempt to balance Battlegrounds for everyone.

Then it's a *** poor excuse for a balance attempt that needs to be completely reworked, or removed entirely. I'd rather take a chance at matching against premades than matching against premades every single queue without fail.

VaranisArano

Its not hard to make a solo and a group queue.

It is hard to implement a group queue and a solo queue in a 4v4v4 team match AND keep the queue times reasonable for everyone now that you've split the already never-all-that-large-to-begin-with population even further.

My preference, if we had to split the queues, would be a group-only queue, an I-only-want-to-play-with-other-randoms queue, and a queue for solo players who are willing to play with premades and randoms alike. The fastest of the queues would be the solo players willing to play with everyone, so the premades groups of two or 3 would get their teams filled, and players who never want to face premades could do it if they were willing to wait for 11 randoms.

jcm2606

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its not hard to make a solo and a group queue.

It is hard to implement a group queue and a solo queue in a 4v4v4 team match AND keep the queue times reasonable for everyone now that you've split the already never-all-that-large-to-begin-with population even further.

My preference, if we had to split the queues, would be a group-only queue, an I-only-want-to-play-with-other-randoms queue, and a queue for solo players who are willing to play with premades and randoms alike. The fastest of the queues would be the solo players willing to play with everyone, so the premades groups of two or 3 would get their teams filled, and players who never want to face premades could do it if they were willing to wait for 11 randoms.

Then get rid of matchmaking entirely and have matching be a free-for-all. They've completely broken matchmaking for me, and seems like others, with Wolfhunter, to the point where you consistently get matched against premades and top tier players back-to-back, instead of players actually equal in ranking and performance to you. As I said, I'd rather have a completely random queue, than a queue that is as broken as this.

Asardes

I play BGs solo and the group quality varies a lot. With some groups I've had a really wonderful experience due to good group coordination and individual player skill, despite never knowing the people, and with others was total crap since the players were really inexperienced (though some had high PvP rank), and din't seem to learn or respond to the advice I was giving them. More or less the same experience I got queuing for veteran dungeons back in the day when I did pledges. I don't group with anyone exactly because I don't want to be matched against true pre-mades in matches I would stand little chance of scoring, let alone winning.

For example I remember a chaos ball game where I queued as solo player on my stamina warden, and ended up with another stamina warden running probably something similar, and we were the only 2 players to score in that game. The other player kept the ball for the first 240, he died and I got it for the next 260 or something like that, and we each slaughtered the other 2 teams in the process since they were so weak. I mean I activated Permafrost while I was cornered and they just stood there and got stunned and frozen and I ended up killing them just spamming brawler because they didn't break free. I'm sure that from their point of view me and the other player looked like totally pre-made

VaranisArano

jcm2606 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its not hard to make a solo and a group queue.

It is hard to implement a group queue and a solo queue in a 4v4v4 team match AND keep the queue times reasonable for everyone now that you've split the already never-all-that-large-to-begin-with population even further.

My preference, if we had to split the queues, would be a group-only queue, an I-only-want-to-play-with-other-randoms queue, and a queue for solo players who are willing to play with premades and randoms alike. The fastest of the queues would be the solo players willing to play with everyone, so the premades groups of two or 3 would get their teams filled, and players who never want to face premades could do it if they were willing to wait for 11 randoms.

Then get rid of matchmaking entirely and have matching be a free-for-all. They've completely broken matchmaking for me, and seems like others, with Wolfhunter, to the point where you consistently get matched against premades and top tier players back-to-back, instead of players actually equal in ranking and performance to you. As I said, I'd rather have a completely random queue, than a queue that is as broken as this.

IIRC, we didn't have matchmaking with Morrowind, and people complained about getting stomped by the same premades over and over again, so we got matchmaking...

Apache_Kid

Nothing is stopping you from putting together your own team of friends to combat the big bad scary "premades"


These threads are so tiresome. These teams are beating you because they are better players than you and your teammates. Its really that simple. But the nice thing about BGs is that unless it is deathmatch, a less-skilled team can still win against a skilled pre-made group by focusing the objectives. Land grab and Crazy King especially.

Your proposed solution of making separate queues for solo and group players would make it so that the group queue would just involve the same teams playing each other over and over. Every other PvP game on the planet allows you to queue in with friends. It has been that way since the beginning of time. Yeah there might be one playlist with a solo queue only feature but the majority of playlists allow people to play with their buddies.

I know this might be a weird concept to you but some of us have other people that we enjoy to play with sometimes and actually want to be able to find a match. I mostly queue up as a solo or duo in BGs and win plenty of matches. yeah i still lose plenty as well but when I lose i don't come to the forums to whine about how PvP matchmaking that has existed in this form for years is unfair.

Artemiisia

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Nothing is stopping you from putting together your own team of friends to combat the big bad scary "premades".

So in your world, its if you cant beat them, join them. Or in this case, if you wanna be a noob basher, make a premade team, and go bully randoms, since thats what premades are doing, there is no skill in making a premade team full with legendary gear thats on discord and playin together everyday, against random people that dont have 3-9 hours a day to do so.

What would make this game fair is:

2 Queues:

Premadse vs Premades
Randoms vs Randoms

I know why premade people dont want this to become a reality

Lieblingsjunge

Make it a solo/duo system in one queue, and 3/4 queue system in another. There's no way a duo-group can even come close to the efficiency of a 3-man premade group, or even a 4-man premade group. So placing those against each other would condemn every duo to oblivion.
But a duo doesn't have that much impact most of the times, as long as the other team isn't complete potatoes(bow light attacks etc.)

Sylosi

Apache_Kid wrote: »

These teams are beating you because they are better players than you and your teammates.
Its really that simple.

It's really not, you can have four okay players queue as a full pre-made and then most of the time they will beat a team of solo players even if a couple of the solo players are actually somewhat better than the pre-made guys, simply by virtue of the benefits of being in a pre-made (full cheese comp, discord, etc), especially in a game like ESO where the skill cap is not that high (so a player a bit better can't carry in the way they can in say CS, they have to be signifcantly better) and the game is very cheese heavy.

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Every other PvP game on the planet allows you to queue in with friends

In virtually every MMORPG instanced PvP fails because these games don't have the populations that DOTA, LOL, Overwatch, etc have to be able to use dynamic matchmaking and produce decent match-ups most of the time. (and even then LOL wiht 80 million players had to bring back solo/duo queue because at high MMR especially flex just failed hard, plus a lot of games don't let you just queue with anyone if I go play DOTA it doesn't let you just queue with anyone for ranked, you have to be within a certain rating of each other, and so on).

Hence what happens in say Overwatch, where the vast majority of your games are basically mirror matchups in terms of groups, plus made of players generally around a similar rating is a million miles from what happens in a joke like ESO, but MMORPG devs don't learn which is why the genre is in the state it is, and why PvP continues to fail.

brandonv516

Credit to @Liam12548

Two queues:

1-2 player group queues
3-4 player group queues

1-2 players can queue for either queues but 3-4 players can only queue for theirs.

I like this idea.

Apherius

Fake Remedy wrote: »

you've solo queued to join a group which will fight vs other groups in a pvp arena. battlegrounds are balanced by MMR.

30 min of queue and 2 premade VS pug isn't really balanced.

idk

hesobad wrote: »

Why is it so hard to make a SOLO QUE and a GROUP QUE system? I don't understand. Do they even play their own game? This is stupid

Everything that puts a layer of separation makes queue times longer.

It’s also an MMORPG. Wouldn’t make sense to separate those who want to group from those who don’t.

Artemiisia

idk wrote: »

hesobad wrote: »

Why is it so hard to make a SOLO QUE and a GROUP QUE system? I don't understand. Do they even play their own game? This is stupid

Everything that puts a layer of separation makes queue times longer.

It’s also an MMORPG. Wouldn’t make sense to separate those who want to group from those who don’t.

I know of another mmo, where its 6v6 and they have made it so you can only queue up premade of 2, to make it more fair, and it works, the fights are more fun, challenging and feels like every team has some sort of chance in winning

React

Should be two seperate ques. 1-2 man is que #1. 3-4 man is que #2.

Players entering the 1-2 man que will only be matched with other solo/duos.

Players entering the 3-4 man que will be placed into matches with other 3-4 man groups. Entering with 3 is agreeing to gimp yourself a player, in favor of outnumbered combat. I know that myself and MANY other high level PvPer's would be happy to go up against some of the 4 man bg squads on our server as 3. Entering with 4 guarantees you will be matching other pre made groups. Thus, group queing becomes competitive and solo/duo queing becomes casual. Very simple concept.

brandonv516

Liam12548 wrote: »

Should be two seperate ques. 1-2 man is que #1. 3-4 man is que #2.

Players entering the 1-2 man que will only be matched with other solo/duos.

Players entering the 3-4 man que will be placed into matches with other 3-4 man groups. Entering with 3 is agreeing to gimp yourself a player, in favor of outnumbered combat. I know that myself and MANY other high level PvPer's would be happy to go up against some of the 4 man bg squads on our server as 3. Entering with 4 guarantees you will be matching other pre made groups. Thus, group queing becomes competitive and solo/duo queing becomes casual. Very simple concept.

Okay it was you that had this idea, I remember. It's a good concept.

GawdSB

Pre-mades and the scoring in deathmatch is ridiculous. Idk how this hasn't even been something they brought up.

LittlePinkDot

Ive always been a solo player. Im never disappointed because I never expect to win. You get AP even if your team loses. A participation award. Everyones special, everyone gets a gold star. Lol.

Valabrog

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Ive always been a solo player. Im never disappointed because I never expect to win. You get AP even if your team loses. A participation award. Everyones special, everyone gets a gold star. Lol.

Well, that sounds like a looser attitude Actually I think its unfair to give 7k AP to the losing team. You can just queue and toggle auto run..I think rewards should scale - at least in land grap or flag games. I speak as a solo player too.

To the topic - remove MMR system completely, make it random again..Because now a new player who tries to play many battles to learn PVP is punished so severe - with no MMR it would be luck at least.

hesobad

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Nothing is stopping you from putting together your own team of friends to combat the big bad scary "premades"


These threads are so tiresome. These teams are beating you because they are better players than you and your teammates. Its really that simple. But the nice thing about BGs is that unless it is deathmatch, a less-skilled team can still win against a skilled pre-made group by focusing the objectives. Land grab and Crazy King especially.

Your proposed solution of making separate queues for solo and group players would make it so that the group queue would just involve the same teams playing each other over and over. Every other PvP game on the planet allows you to queue in with friends. It has been that way since the beginning of time. Yeah there might be one playlist with a solo queue only feature but the majority of playlists allow people to play with their buddies.

I know this might be a weird concept to you but some of us have other people that we enjoy to play with sometimes and actually want to be able to find a match. I mostly queue up as a solo or duo in BGs and win plenty of matches. yeah i still lose plenty as well but when I lose i don't come to the forums to whine about how PvP matchmaking that has existed in this form for years is unfair.

I dont have time for that. I work 2 jobs and only have a few minutes maybe an hour every day to play. Also i deal with people all day so when i play i kinda want to just zone out and not talk to anyone. Being a paramedic in a high crime area will do that to you. Anyway the system is broken, i lose plenty games and am okay with that. But when i see the same 4 people game after game absolutely crushing it, it gets old. I'm not sticking around for that so i leave and get the abandonment penalty, swap characters and get into another game just to see the same 4 people doing the same ***. How is that fun? I refuse to be apart of it. Sometimes it works and you may run into just a group of 2 or so and its fine. But its the full 4 man pre mades that just make it so i dont even want to spend my lunch break playing this crap.

Ender1310

Look if they changed the system to separate solo and premades the premades would just play themselves over and over. Plus they wouldn't be able to steam roll which is what they really want.

hesobad

Ender1310 wrote: »

Look if they changed the system to separate solo and premades the premades would just play themselves over and over. Plus they wouldn't be able to steam roll which is what they really want.

Yeah but they can just go into Cyrodill and kill noobs if thats what they like doing

lucky_dutch

2 queues could make queue times really long for groups to the point where they leave which isn't good for the health of PvP.

They could just adjust the algorithm to prioritise groups vs groups above MMR with MMR being a secondary matching criteria.

StamWhipCultist

All I know is that I face premades a lot lately. They destroy me and my team of solo queue ppl and its not fun lol