The importance of Argonian mystery

tinythinker

In the early days of the forums, it was hard to find a thread that mentioned Argonians that I didn't show up in, but I don't consider myself a master of their lore. I did read the novels The Infernal City and Lord of Souls as well as general website articles on Argonians, noting also what Loremaster Lawrence has said about them. They have been recognized as having some of their inspirationfrom some Mesoamerican civilizations, but, intentionally or not, also have similarities with other cultures such as the Korowai and Asmat peoples of New Guinea. The former for their remote location and isolation from the outside world and their housing style...


Korowai treehouse

...and the latter for also having thatched huts and tall treehouses but also believing that a god carved them from a sacred type of tree, and that they are bound to these trees and the spirits within them.

As for Argonian lore, it is thin, with the Saxhleel having a symbiotic relationship with Hist trees and evidence that they had a powerful civilization during the Merethic Era, the mysterious ending of which Argonians refer to as Duskfall. Also unknown is where the Hist trees themselves originate, as they seem like they may be an invasive species that took root in Black Marsh. This is hinted at in the novels mentioned above, though that still leaves the questions of where they were transplanted from unknown.

The cult of Sithis is a part of Argonian society, with the Shadowscales being defenders of their people. Whether this relationship to Sithis is a continuation of a practice that existed during their Merethich Era glory or whether it developed in response to incursions by other races isn't entirely clear, though Shadowscales at least seem to revere the former Xanmeer society and use their old structures as bases of operations.

And... that's mostly it unless one wants to track a very few historical events in then first, second, third, and early fourth eras.

On the one hand, it seems like a cool area to explore in the game lore-wise. There is so much room for speculation and debate. On the other hand, that's why retaining the mystery is important. Prequels and added backstories can take away the very wonder and curiosity making particular groups and individuals interesting, often not living up to what fans come up with in their own imaginations.

So, how much do you think ZOS and Bethesda should reveal about the lizard folk? Which things should be left unknown?

TelvanniWizard

Anything could be left unknown, except their lands. I hope one day we´ll visit the black marsh (and kick their scale asses in their own homes ).

tinythinker

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

Anything could be left unknown, except their lands. I hope one day we´ll visit the black marsh (and kick their scale asses in their own homes ).

Yeah... let's rez this thread again! Most recent comment from last December.

I don't mind if they give out little bits of the Argonian mystery, so long as those bits raise even stranger/harder to answer questions.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Personally I don't like that so much of Black Marsh is such a blank slate; I can't get excited about anything because there isn't anything I know enough of to get excited about. It's like hearing that a stranger won at a sport I've never heard of; great for them, but not something near and dear to me.

I would like them to clear up the lore with the Hist sap a little; we've got one quest in Shadowfen that tells us that Hist sap is basically the Argonian afterlife, and boiling it tortures the spirits living in it. But then cut to Coldharbour, the Hist tree there was apparently fine with giving some up to the Daedra who are doing basically the same thing, the Argonians living with it are unbothered by this and there are no screaming, tortured ghosts in evidence. It's things like this that really make me miss the 'Answers Your Questions' segments, because then we'd have at least a slim chance of getting an answer about it from an NPC who knows something about the subject.

I also recall a quest that hinted that it was the Ayleids, not the Argonians, who started the Knahaten Flu; that, to my mind, is a major enough historical revelation it should get more development than it has.

Shardan4968

tinythinker wrote: »

In the early days of the forums, it was hard to find a thread that mentioned Argonians that I didn't show up in, but I don't consider myself a master of their lore. I did read the novels The Infernal City and Lord of Souls as well as general website articles on Argonians, noting also what Loremaster Lawrence has said about them. They have been recognized as having some of their inspirationfrom some Mesoamerican civilizations, but, intentionally or not, also have similarities with other cultures such as the Korowai and Asmat peoples of New Guinea. The former for their remote location and isolation from the outside world and their housing style...


Korowai treehouse

...and the latter for also having thatched huts and tall treehouses but also believing that a god carved them from a sacred type of tree, and that they are bound to these trees and the spirits within them.

As for Argonian lore, it is thin, with the Saxhleel having a symbiotic relationship with Hist trees and evidence that they had a powerful civilization during the Merethic Era, the mysterious ending of which Argonians refer to as Duskfall. Also unknown is where the Hist trees themselves originate, as they seem like they may be an invasive species that took root in Black Marsh. This is hinted at in the novels mentioned above, though that still leaves the questions of where they were transplanted from unknown.

The cult of Sithis is a part of Argonian society, with the Shadowscales being defenders of their people. Whether this relationship to Sithis is a continuation of a practice that existed during their Merethich Era glory or whether it developed in response to incursions by other races isn't entirely clear, though Shadowscales at least seem to revere the former Xanmeer society and use their old structures as bases of operations.

And... that's mostly it unless one wants to track a very few historical events in then first, second, third, and early fourth eras.

On the one hand, it seems like a cool area to explore in the game lore-wise. There is so much room for speculation and debate. On the other hand, that's why retaining the mystery is important. Prequels and added backstories can take away the very wonder and curiosity making particular groups and individuals interesting, often not living up to what fans come up with in their own imaginations.

So, how much do you think ZOS and Bethesda should reveal about the lizard folk? Which things should be left unknown?

@tinythinker

I think that Zenimax should add Murkmire, but rest of this epic land should appear in some of the next TES games first. There's many different tribes and even Tiber Septim's army didn't reach center of Argonia. I like Shadowfen from ESO, but I think that from single player, we could get even better atmosphere of those mysterious swamps. When I was reading about An-Xileel which kicked dunmeri asses and left Empire, I became very curious what is going on in Argonia. We don't know what they are planning, what they will do with Thalmor or Empire. Maybe Hist told Argonians about new treat to the Nirn and they are preparing.

tinythinker

Shardan4968 wrote: »

There's many different tribes and even Tiber Septim's army didn't reach center of Argonia..

Yeah my subrace/character background expansion idea explored that. Excerpt below...

Example: Argonian Backgrounds

My example is based on and builds on the tribes/subraces of Argonians. Based on existing lore, here are some prime candidates for Argonian Backgrounds...

Agacephs: Most have needle-like faces and vary in color from bright green to orange. Found in inner Argonia near the Hist.
Paatru: Described as "toad-like", they live in the inner part of Argonia.
Sarpa: Described as being "winged", though it's unclear if this is meant literally or not. They live in the interior of Argonia.
Nagas: They are described as having "huge mouths filled with dripping needle-like fangs". Usually seven to eight feet tall, the Nagas appear to be more snake-like than other Argonians. When the other races were attempting to put plantations into Argonia, they generally acted as highway robbers; however, since the other races ceased trying to put plantations in Argonia, they have left the roads and have gone back into the inner swamps

For those who want cosmetic-only changes, this gives the ZOS artists some fun things with which to work. Although Nagas will probably be NPC-only if they are adapted at the size mentioned. Other tribes not mentioned here have no distinction of appearance mentioned, suggesting they have a more standard Argonian appearance and that their differences are largely or entirely cultural (that doesn't disqualify them, but anatomical/physiological variation would be more striking than ethnic distinction for new types of in-game Saxhleel). That still leaves the Agacephs, Paatru, and Sarpa to play around with.

For the actual system proposed, here is one way these backgrounds could be fleshed out (and again, if you think these numbers are too big, picture them smaller):

Agacephs
While all Argonians are connected to the Hist the Agacephs -- distinguished by their brighter coloring, thinner build, and needle-like faces -- live close to its inner core, among the oldest groves. This grants them a greater attunement to the ebb and flow of living energy, making them excellent healers.
New passive tree option:
(*) Increases the Armor value of Light Armor by 10%.
(_) The cost of healing spells is reduced 3%.
(_) The cost of healing spells is reduced 6%.
Single passive option:
The cost of healing spells is reduced 6%.

Paatru
The shorter and squatter Paatru are masters of an ancient and nearly extinct form of shamanism from the dawn of the Argonian peoples. This arcane knowledge grants them greater skill when engaged in the magical arts.

New passive tree option:
(*) Increases Maximum Magicka by 4%.
(_) Increases Spell Critical chance is increased by 4%.
(_) Increased Spell Critical chance is increased by 8%.

Single passive option:
Spell critical chance is increased by 8%.

Sarpa
The Sarpa are known for their swiftness and agility (on land as well as in the water), which makes them ideal candidates for the Shadowscales when open to recruitment. However, living so far into Argonia's interior, they prefer their traditional pursuits such as hunting, to which they are ideally suited.

New passive tree option:
(*) Duration of snares is reduced by 40%.
(_) The cost of stamina-based skills is reduced by 2%.
(_) The cost of stamina-based skills is reduced by 4%.

Single passive option:
The cost of stamina-based skills is reduced by 4%.

Standard Argonian (Saxhleel?)
(Maybe Lawrence Schick could offer a name? Maybe Saxhleel refers to "standard" Argonians and is sometimes used by outsiders (and unifiers among insiders) to refer to all subraces?)

The Saxhleel (or whatever name to use for standard version) are the most well-known of the lizard-folk. They are also the type most associated with the cult of Sithis and their militant wing, the Shadowscales. As a result of their contact with outside races, they developed skills that aid in guerrilla warfare tactics, such as the effective use of stealth.

New passive tree option:
(*) Allows you to enter stealth more quickly and increases speed while stealthed by 10%.
(_) Increases out of combat Stamina and Magicka regeneration by 10% while in stealth.
(_) Increases out of combat Stamina and Magicka regeneration by 20% while in stealth.

Single passive option:
Increases out of combat Stamina and Magicka regeneration by 20% while in stealth.

[Note: The Backgrounds offered here focus on tribes with physical differences but other tribes exist. Other tribes given in the lore may be from the subracial types hinted at for the Backgrounds above, i.e. thin/colorful/needle-nosed, short/squat/toad-like, etc. Perhaps Argonians care more about tribal affiliation than physical appearance. Perhaps not. Maybe the Archeins, for example, who tried to capitalize on the slave trade, included those of the standard/Saxhleel subrace. Maybe the Gee-Rusleel, who are known for their connection to the Hist, tend to be of the same subrace as the Agacephs, hence they both live near/share a deep connection to the Hist. And so on. Lots of room to play around here.]

Thus we have the lore-based Agacepths (healing bonus), Paatru (magicka bonus), Sarpa (stamina bonus), and Saxheel (stealth bonus). Because Argonians are magicka and stamina neutral, the relatively small bonuses do not somehow make a character over-powered.

Would be a fun way to add new character models for character diversity that could be unlocked with achievement points

ChibchanLawyer

As a person who lives on a South American country irl, which by constitutional law keeps the precolumbian sites and tribes that dot the land preserved, I can totally vouch for the architectural influence of Xanmeers.

Now, then, back to TES Lore, I for one would love to have more insight on Argonian culture that went deeper. Just Shadowfen doesn't cut it, How cool would it be to explore Gideon, Blackrose or Soulrest, and see the different tribes of Argonians around. I remember a book from Oblivion called "The Argonian Account" (it's probably on other games but I read it on Oblivion), and one of the volumes spoke of a place of glamorous mansions built around blue swampy mushrooms, and a means of fast travel used by Argonians that consisted of being eaten by some transparent worm that then would rush from underground, and then, once you had reached your destiny, you would push upwards to be vomited by the worm, I'd love to see those places and try those things, maybe even see a Swamp Leviathan from TESL.

It'd be boss to see them developed on their own TES title, and give it a "Skyrim"-ish lore setup, because in TESO, they only bothered to add a couple of DLC dungeons and we're good to go, whereas Morrowind and Cyrodiil get actual expansions on places we've seen and been in previous games, they haven't thought to develop Black Marsh any further to the south, but then again, neither have they done it with any province.

Volsera

I hope that the new TES game will be set in and around Argonia. There is so much potential in it and it would be nice to learn more about this mysterious and always oppressed race.

menedhyn

tinythinker wrote: »

So, how much do you think ZOS and Bethesda should reveal about the lizard folk? Which things should be left unknown?

I find it absolutely fascinating that we know comparatively little about Argonian culture when compared to other races... and incredibly frustrating that we know so little about the same! I would be very happy to learn more about the flora and fauna, the landscape and the landshape of the marsh by seeing it for myself. As for things to be left relatively unknown? Well, there's a part of me that wants the Xanmeers to remain shrouded in mystery. I think. Maybe.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

ChibchanLawyer wrote: »

It'd be boss to see them developed on their own TES title, and give it a "Skyrim"-ish lore setup

If they do a single player game I want underwater dungeons. Waterbreathing SHOULD be awesome, but 90% of the content is on land, rendering it nearly useless.

MythicEmperor

Most importantly, they make great slaves, and when they inevitably fail, boots

starkerealm

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Most importantly, they make great slaves, and when they inevitably fail, boots

Volsera

starkerealm wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Most importantly, they make great slaves, and when they inevitably fail, boots

This is why I own a bearded dragon..

Eporem

For me I would like to know what has happened to their artifact, the Mnemic Egg, is it still with the Nords? as well a little lore on their relics, especially this one.

Korah_Eaglecry

Im all for going into Argonia. I would hope that ZOS does it justice and keeps outside races presence to an absolute bare minimum.

starkerealm

Eporem wrote: »

For me I would like to know what has happened to their artifact, the Mnemic Egg, is it still with the Nords? as well a little lore on their relics, especially this one.

Yeah, honestly, that plot thread was really weird. It would have made sense if there were two Argonian zones, and you were moving the egg somewhere safer. But, to Windhelm?

Granted, I don't think I've run any of the Eastmarch content since 2014, but still.

Korah_Eaglecry

starkerealm wrote: »

Eporem wrote: »

For me I would like to know what has happened to their artifact, the Mnemic Egg, is it still with the Nords? as well a little lore on their relics, especially this one.

Yeah, honestly, that plot thread was really weird. It would have made sense if there were two Argonian zones, and you were moving the egg somewhere safer. But, to Windhelm?

Granted, I don't think I've run any of the Eastmarch content since 2014, but still.

I always figured that Shadowfen is basically it as far as the Argonians involvment with the Ebonheart Pact. Prior to the EPs formation Stormhold and Shadowfen was under Dunmer control. With god knows how many Argonians being freed upon the signing of the Ebonheart Pact. They needed a place to go. The Load Screen for Shadowfen even hints that after the signing of the Pact Shadowfen was given back to the Argonians.

My guess is that the Mnemic egg could possibly have been taken deeper into Blackmarsh but it would basically be handing it off to another Nation. So where else do you take it if its no longer safe in Shadowfen?

starkerealm

Yeah, if Black Marsh is completely ununified, that would make some sense. Not sure why Eastmarch is looking like a better option, especially since The Reach is contested territory in ESO, but still.

Eporem

Another wonder is what the Vice Canon Heita-Meen might have seen, when the Hist sent her beyond the Dream, before she transported the Egg and hid it somewhere in the Nord's land.

Darkhorse1975

...right under their snouts, uh, noses...

Korah_Eaglecry

starkerealm wrote: »

Yeah, if Black Marsh is completely ununified, that would make some sense. Not sure why Eastmarch is looking like a better option, especially since The Reach is contested territory in ESO, but still.

Well Skyrim isnt unified at this point either. It seems the majority of Nords fall into Western Skyrims domain. But aside from the Clan that backed Jorunns brother for the throne. The two nations, lore wise dont seem to have much more beef with each other than who is the true "High King" of Skyrim. And they seem all too happy in the moment to leave each other be.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

starkerealm wrote: »

Yeah, if Black Marsh is completely ununified, that would make some sense. Not sure why Eastmarch is looking like a better option, especially since The Reach is contested territory in ESO, but still.

The Nords are outright allies, some unaffiliated tribes are by definition unaffiliated. Their other option would be the Dunmer who were enslaving them up until recently. And there was that little ceremony outside Skuldafn they wanted it for too.

Eporem

@WhiteCoatSyndrome Thank you so much for the link to the little ceremony.

starkerealm

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Yeah, if Black Marsh is completely ununified, that would make some sense. Not sure why Eastmarch is looking like a better option, especially since The Reach is contested territory in ESO, but still.

The Nords are outright allies, some unaffiliated tribes are by definition unaffiliated. Their other option would be the Dunmer who were enslaving them up until recently. And there was that little ceremony outside Skuldafn they wanted it for too.

Yeah, thing about that... the other two objects are things. Powerful magical artifacts, sure, but still just objects. As I recall, the Mnemic Egg has the power to fundamentally mess with the Argonians as an entire race. I can't remember if that's the ability to just brainwash all of their children, or just to prevent them from reproducing. Either way, that's kinda dangerous for them.

In contrast, you've got a crown, which, yeah, it's culturally important, but losing it wouldn't make every Nord child born after that point swear fealty to the Worm Cult. And the Judgement of St. Veloth is dangerous, but having it stolen wouldn't mean that no Dunmer could ever have children again.

Eporem

The Argonian I play hopes that the Mnemic Egg is being kept warm.

ankhor8

/quote]If they do a single player game I want underwater dungeons. Waterbreathing SHOULD be awesome, [/quote]

Fully agreed. Underwater breathing was one of the reasons i picked an argonian in ES3 many years ago.

ankhor8

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Eporem wrote: »

For me I would like to know what has happened to their artifact, the Mnemic Egg, is it still with the Nords? as well a little lore on their relics, especially this one.

Yeah, honestly, that plot thread was really weird. It would have made sense if there were two Argonian zones, and you were moving the egg somewhere safer. But, to Windhelm?

I always figured that Shadowfen is basically it as far as the Argonians involvment with the Ebonheart Pact. Prior to the EPs formation Stormhold and Shadowfen was under Dunmer control. With god knows how many Argonians being freed upon the signing of the Ebonheart Pact. They needed a place to go. The Load Screen for Shadowfen even hints that after the signing of the Pact Shadowfen was given back to the Argonians.

My guess is that the Mnemic egg could possibly have been taken deeper into Blackmarsh but it would basically be handing it off to another Nation. So where else do you take it if its no longer safe in Shadowfen?

These perspectives remind me that Keshu the Black Fin is known far leas than she needs to be. Argonians/Saxhleel were on the attack, freeing all captured kin in stormhold and north of, when the akaviri was attacking the dunmer and nords. Keshu and Heita-Meen saved the dunmer and nords. That slavery abolishment statement didn't matter, because freedom was happening regardless.
From my outside reading perspective, almalexia did that to save face.
A legion of shellbacks with Heita-Meen (the slave that just killed her slave master) heading north from one angle and Keshu the Black Fin with a variety of allies heading from another direction to support Jorunn (they met before he was king). Saxhleel made the difference in that invasion. As usual, Saxhleel chose the humble, be easy route, and left without killing the rest of the slavers.
The Mnemic Egg should Definitely remain in the Marsh. Protected by the smartest, or most hidden. The Mnemic Egg should be a mystery to foreigners.
I trust the direction that has been given by the Hist collective. Mutual Benefit has persisted, and likely will. If the Hist deems these type of actions wise, i shall trust.

Korah_Eaglecry

ankhor8 wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Eporem wrote: »

For me I would like to know what has happened to their artifact, the Mnemic Egg, is it still with the Nords? as well a little lore on their relics, especially this one.

Yeah, honestly, that plot thread was really weird. It would have made sense if there were two Argonian zones, and you were moving the egg somewhere safer. But, to Windhelm?

I always figured that Shadowfen is basically it as far as the Argonians involvment with the Ebonheart Pact. Prior to the EPs formation Stormhold and Shadowfen was under Dunmer control. With god knows how many Argonians being freed upon the signing of the Ebonheart Pact. They needed a place to go. The Load Screen for Shadowfen even hints that after the signing of the Pact Shadowfen was given back to the Argonians.

My guess is that the Mnemic egg could possibly have been taken deeper into Blackmarsh but it would basically be handing it off to another Nation. So where else do you take it if its no longer safe in Shadowfen?

These perspectives remind me that Keshu the Black Fin is known far leas than she needs to be. Argonians/Saxhleel were on the attack, freeing all captured kin in stormhold and north of, when the akaviri was attacking the dunmer and nords. Keshu and Heita-Meen saved the dunmer and nords. That slavery abolishment statement didn't matter, because freedom was happening regardless.
From my outside reading perspective, almalexia did that to save face.
A legion of shellbacks with Heita-Meen (the slave that just killed her slave master) heading north from one angle and Keshu the Black Fin with a variety of allies heading from another direction to support Jorunn (they met before he was king). Saxhleel made the difference in that invasion. As usual, Saxhleel chose the humble, be easy route, and left without killing the rest of the slavers.
The Mnemic Egg should Definitely remain in the Marsh. Protected by the smartest, or most hidden. The Mnemic Egg should be a mystery to foreigners.
I trust the direction that has been given by the Hist collective. Mutual Benefit has persisted, and likely will. If the Hist deems these type of actions wise, i shall trust.

Is this new lore from Murkmire? I have heard nothing of a rebel faction of Argonians fighting their way North. And Ive played through EP content well over 6 times now. So if this is new lore, awesome, cant wait to sink my teeth into it. But Im not sure how believable it is that these Argonians were going to free everyone. Sounds like nonsense to me considering the Telvanni still hold slaves and the Dres farm hands might as well still be called slaves.