Why is ferocious leap hitting so hard in cp campaign?

LegacyDM

So I've been in non cp campaign since it was renamed from azura to sorta sil. I really like non cp because it feels more balanced. Unfortunatly, the lack of population sucks now and it's just a DC nightcap pvp door Zerg fest. I went back to vivec and either I forgot how bad the burst is or it's gotten worse.

I'm being bursted down from half health with 24k health. Sorcs and dks seem to be the biggest offenders. Sorcs with 8k crit curses, frags, and mages wrath is crazy burst if your caught off guard. However, One thing I noticed was sword and board dks are hitting me with 12.5k non crit ferocious leaps. Huh? Is this over performing? I've got 830 cps and invested 11% in magicka and physical reductions. I am wearing gold light armor but I don't know of any ults that hit that hard in 1 shot. Incap 8k crit. Crescent sweep 8k crit. Bat swarm around 6k. Eye of flame easy dot to avoid. What is making ferocious leap hit do damn hard? Also with the change to burning talons it's hitting vamps for 2.1k+ also riposte mages tree is hitting for 3k+. Why are such simple skills hitting for so much?

Zos hasn't balanced anything other than procs. Although I got hit with a 6k validreth today. So that's debatable. So at least in cp, burst is still off the chart, If I want to survive with 24k health I have to start spamming my healing ward at half health. Insane.

Cyrediath

i use heavy armor 1h/s and my tooltip for whip is 8.1k and leap is around 12k. so i usually hit whit whip around 2.5-3k if they dont block or not fully buffed. and 5 k most with leap. i dont believe you got 12.5k from leap non crit. that guy must have around 30k tooltip for leap. no offense but i dont believe it...

leepalmer95

Leap had one of the highest tooltips in the game.

You need to invest into more than just reduced fire dmg star, you need a lot into reduced direct dmg.

Are you a vamp? 25% extra.

The fact your light means your very squishy.

Also that leap was likely a crit or the guy is a complete glass cannon and your a vamp.

gabormezo

Well, that's basically DKs' execute if timed right. If ZOS balances that (aka nerfs to the ground) then whats left for us? 8K tooltip Whip that barely do 2.5K on sorcs' shield in CP camps? Or dots that immediately gets dispelled by extended rituals? I really like DK, and I believe it is a fairly balanced class that could be very powerful in a hands of a skillful player. But powerful leaps is the part of that balance. I always wear Impregnable light armor in PVP for protection against crit damage. That allows me to use traits other than impen so that basically gives me a somewhat free second 5th piece effect for this set.

Qbiken

Not saying it can be Varen´s legacy set.......but It can be Varen´s Legacy set...

CyrusArya

I would suggest wearing impen gear, optimizing your cps for the current meta seeing as you self admittedly are new to cp campaigns (ironclad is a must), and learning how to proactively keep defenses up and mitigate damage. You are a mageblade yeah? I'd suggest looking up KenaPKK on YouTube and maybe you can get an idea of how to play the class and not get obliterated. He seems to do just fine and isn't desperately spamming healing ward at 50% health in even outnumbered situations, let alone even fights. So based on that alone I'd say your struggles are personal issues.

Damage is completely fine as I'm concerned, but I can see why you might feel otherwise coming from a campaign where you were fighting mostly new players who are probably running around in gear they picked up questing. Welcome to pvping with actually geared and experienced players. I'd suggest you spend a little time adjusting and learning how to play your class properly before making such threads where you try to push debatable opinions.

'Balance' does not mean forgiving gameplay that holds your hand. Too many people throw that term around whenever they get rekt. Game is the most balanced it's ever been.

Vapirko

Lol. Someday DKs are gonna be scrap, always calling for more nerfs even after they got nerfed harder than any class. ZOS should just rename dragon leap to worm crawl with a max tooltip of 2k. Then maybe people will be happy.

Juhasow

Are You vampire stage 4 ? If yes then problem solved. Engulfing flames+Entropy = Ferocious Leap + 55% more dmg dealt to vampires and 30% to everyone else.

CyrusArya

HiImRex wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]
CP is the base game. And any issues with CP were hammered out in morrowind. Non CP is the alternative for players who wanna farm new players and players like yourself who get 1vXed and so need to play a watered down game where that won't happen. I'm sick of this mentality among no cp players that champion points are grossly imbalanced and only in no cp can you find balanced PvP. No, game is perfectly fine. You are just bad.

[Edited for removed quote/baiting]

Solariken

CyrusArya wrote: »

I would suggest wearing impen gear, optimizing your cps for the current meta seeing as you self admittedly are new to cp campaigns (ironclad is a must), and learning how to proactively keep defenses up and mitigate damage. You are a mageblade yeah? I'd suggest looking up KenaPKK on YouTube and maybe you can get an idea of how to play the class and not get obliterated. He seems to do just fine and isn't desperately spamming healing ward at 50% health in even outnumbered situations, let alone even fights. So based on that alone I'd say your struggles are personal issues.

Damage is completely fine as I'm concerned, but I can see why you might feel otherwise coming from a campaign where you were fighting mostly new players who are probably running around in gear they picked up questing. Welcome to pvping with actually geared and experienced players. I'd suggest you spend a little time adjusting and learning how to play your class properly before making such threads where you try to push debatable opinions.

'Balance' does not mean forgiving gameplay that holds your hand. Too many people throw that term around whenever they get rekt. Game is the most balanced it's ever been.

@CyrusArya umm what? Calling total BS on the bolded.

Minno

HiImRex wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

I would suggest wearing impen gear, optimizing your cps for the current meta seeing as you self admittedly are new to cp campaigns (ironclad is a must), and learning how to proactively keep defenses up and mitigate damage. You are a mageblade yeah? I'd suggest looking up KenaPKK on YouTube and maybe you can get an idea of how to play the class and not get obliterated. He seems to do just fine and isn't desperately spamming healing ward at 50% health in even outnumbered situations, let alone even fights. So based on that alone I'd say your struggles are personal issues.

Damage is completely fine as I'm concerned, but I can see why you might feel otherwise coming from a campaign where you were fighting mostly new players who are probably running around in gear they picked up questing. Welcome to pvping with actually geared and experienced players. I'd suggest you spend a little time adjusting and learning how to play your class properly before making such threads where you try to push debatable opinions.

'Balance' does not mean forgiving gameplay that holds your hand. Too many people throw that term around whenever they get rekt. Game is the most balanced it's ever been.

[snip]

Poor ego .

[Edited for removed quote]

ZOS_Mika

We have had to remove several comments in this thread because of bashing and baiting. Please keep all discussion focused on the topic of the thread.

CyrusArya

Solariken wrote: »

@CyrusArya umm what? Calling total BS on the bolded.

Ok my post might have been a bit of an exaggeration. There are good and bad, geared and ungeared players on both servers. But NO CP is not the harbinger of balance as those who play there like to push. Consistently, I hear that from people who cannot be competitive on the normal servers. And this post is a testament to that. The two have entirely different dynamics, and that's fine. But constantly screeching that champion points are imbalanced is an insult to all the effort that has been put into (successfully) balancing it all out.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. But don't stand in the kiddie pool and then continue to cry about how hot the kitchen is.

HiImRex

CyrusArya wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

@CyrusArya umm what? Calling total BS on the bolded.

Ok my post might have been a bit of an exaggeration. There are good and bad, geared and ungeared players on both servers. But NO CP is not the harbinger of balance as those who play there like to push. Consistently, I hear that from people who cannot be competitive on the normal servers. And this post is a testament to that. The two have entirely different dynamics, and that's fine. But constantly screeching that champion points are imbalanced is an insult to all the effort that has been put into (successfully) balancing it all out.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. But don't stand in the kiddie pool and then continue to cry about how hot the kitchen is.

CP campaigns are objectively easier. Whatever you accomplish on CP campaigns, it will be a lot harder to accomplish equivalent feats in non CP. And additionally, CP takes what already is often an RNG rock paper scissors encounter to their extremes.

How anyone can not see that when you take a quick look at how the CP system is designed is beyond me.

You have the damage boosting CPs and the damage mitigation CPs, they more or less directly cancel each other out so you have basically the same damage done and taken more or less.

Then on top of that you get to have cost reduction in roll-dodge, block cost, break-free, and sprint. More regen, bigger resource pools.

You make a positioning error in non CP you're likely ***. You make a positioning error in CP you get away with basically no consequence. You fail to dodge that CC in non CP you get ***. You most likely don't even pay attention to that *** in CP because not only is the cost negligible, you get unchained to give you a free shuffle after you break free.

You got a lot more room for error in CP just from those passives alone, then you also get to amp up certain builds. You can take a classic destro/snb magplar for example. Take him out of non CP and put him in CP. All the standard CP allocations and then throw in a bunch of blessed and block cost reduction. All of a sudden your gameplay is 5x more forgiving because block casting BoL got WAY more efficient, not from skill but just from putting passive points into a tree.

Then the RPS aspect, you take major defile it is balanced to do 30% heal reduction, you're a nightblade so you throw in a bunch of CP into buffing major defile and now you got an easy 55% heal reduction and start to counter all builds who don't amplify healing the same amount. Really skillful win there buddy clicking on that CP star. Block casting mag DK just max out that block cost reduction star. Really skillful CP play there man keep holding that right click.

It's too bad DC killed PC NA sotha right now. You have any experience playing any actually competitive games with developers who care about balance you learn a few important design principles yourself. CP is "more balanced than ever" is basically saying my poops never tasted better than before today so try it on your cake now.

OdinForge

HiImRex wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

@CyrusArya umm what? Calling total BS on the bolded.

Ok my post might have been a bit of an exaggeration. There are good and bad, geared and ungeared players on both servers. But NO CP is not the harbinger of balance as those who play there like to push. Consistently, I hear that from people who cannot be competitive on the normal servers. And this post is a testament to that. The two have entirely different dynamics, and that's fine. But constantly screeching that champion points are imbalanced is an insult to all the effort that has been put into (successfully) balancing it all out.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. But don't stand in the kiddie pool and then continue to cry about how hot the kitchen is.

CP campaigns are objectively easier. Whatever you accomplish on CP campaigns, it will be a lot harder to accomplish equivalent feats in non CP. And additionally, CP takes what already is often an RNG rock paper scissors encounter to their extremes.

How anyone can not see that when you take a quick look at how the CP system is designed is beyond me.

You have the damage boosting CPs and the damage mitigation CPs, they more or less directly cancel each other out so you have basically the same damage done and taken more or less.

Then on top of that you get to have cost reduction in roll-dodge, block cost, break-free, and sprint. More regen, bigger resource pools.

You make a positioning error in non CP you're likely ***. You make a positioning error in CP you get away with basically no consequence. You fail to dodge that CC in non CP you get ***. You most likely don't even pay attention to that *** in CP because not only is the cost negligible, you get unchained to give you a free shuffle after you break free.

You got a lot more room for error in CP just from those passives alone, then you also get to amp up certain builds. You can take a classic destro/snb magplar for example. Take him out of non CP and put him in CP. All the standard CP allocations and then throw in a bunch of blessed and block cost reduction. All of a sudden your gameplay is 5x more forgiving because block casting BoL got WAY more efficient, not from skill but just from putting passive points into a tree.

Then the RPS aspect, you take major defile it is balanced to do 30% heal reduction, you're a nightblade so you throw in a bunch of CP into buffing major defile and now you got an easy 55% heal reduction and start to counter all builds who don't amplify healing the same amount. Really skillful win there buddy clicking on that CP star. Block casting mag DK just max out that block cost reduction star. Really skillful CP play there man keep holding that right click.

It's too bad DC killed PC NA sotha right now. You have any experience playing any actually competitive games with developers who care about balance you learn a few important design principles yourself. CP is "more balanced than ever" is basically saying my poops never tasted better than before today so try it on your cake now.

While I might have agreed with your general sentiment before Morrowind, it simply isn't true anymore. No cp takes easy kills to a whole new level, I can go to no cp with 5 people without complimenting builds or even optimized builds for no cp and pull chunks from zergs between sej all day to slaughter. The players that play there are so nooby they will spawn at sej en masse and run back out to die the same exact way for hours.

No cp right now is for easy kills, and you don't even get a stone payout like in IC.

[Edit to remove inappropriate remark.]

Thogard

CyrusArya wrote: »

HiImRex wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]
CP is the base game. And any issues with CP were hammered out in morrowind. Non CP is the alternative for players who wanna farm new players and players like yourself who get 1vXed and so need to play a watered down game where that won't happen. I'm sick of this mentality among no cp players that champion points are grossly imbalanced and only in no cp can you find balanced PvP. No, game is perfectly fine. You are just bad.

[Edited for removed quote/baiting]

I'd put money on legacy beating you in a duel any day of the week. I'd even give you odds.

CyrusArya

@HiImRex

Your points would have been valid two years ago. But at this point, the game has been completely balanced around the concept of CPs. Classes have been changed, armor passives have been changed, poisons have been added, etc etc to accommodate the champion system.The game is literally designed around it. So of course no CP is harder, you're playing a gimped character in a game thats designed around a system you voluntarily opt out of to play in a campaign who's main intent is to give new players an even playing field.

CP campaigns are the baseline. It is for all intents and purposes the main game mode. No CP is not. And it is plenty enjoyable for many of us who do not share the complaints and opinions expressed in the original post. That is all I have to say.

CyrusArya

Thogard wrote: »

I'd put money on legacy beating you in a duel any day of the week. I'd even give you odds.

Oh really? Do you think he would propose this himself? And how much are you willing to put on it? We can arrange this today.

HiImRex

What... all cp does is add damage, cancel it out with damage mitigation, and then make everything else you do cost less or do more.

There's a few weird passives like doing 10% more against off balance etc and free crit from blocking 3 spells but tell me how zos specifically balanced the entire pvp game around these passives?

If it's possible to now do 10% more damage vs off balanced then a balance pass should have been made through all classes and abilities that allow off balance status to occur, as a 10% bonus is a huge amount.

That's an example of a developer balancing around a certain mechanic. Did zos do any of that? What about the passive that guarantees s crit after blocking 3 spells. What did zos adjust design wise after adding that passive in the game?

Since there's a cp passive that gives out major heroism at a certain threshold, were ulti costs adjusted accordingly after this cp passive was introduced? No? No to all?

I'm having trouble understanding the statement that the game has been balanced with cp in mind. Seems to me cp was thrown in on top with no balancing adjustments to mitigate or balance the added power & mechanics and then a couple bandaids thrown over to fix the huge imbalances that occurred.

Maybe expand your video game experience beyond one game to get an understanding of the words balance and design? This game is far far from being coherently balanced or designed.

Durham

LegacyDM wrote: »

So I've been in non cp campaign since it was renamed from azura to sorta sil. I really like non cp because it feels more balanced. Unfortunatly, the lack of population sucks now and it's just a DC nightcap pvp door Zerg fest. I went back to vivec and either I forgot how bad the burst is or it's gotten worse.

I'm being bursted down from half health with 24k health. Sorcs and dks seem to be the biggest offenders. Sorcs with 8k crit curses, frags, and mages wrath is crazy burst if your caught off guard. However, One thing I noticed was sword and board dks are hitting me with 12.5k non crit ferocious leaps. Huh? Is this over performing? I've got 830 cps and invested 11% in magicka and physical reductions. I am wearing gold light armor but I don't know of any ults that hit that hard in 1 shot. Incap 8k crit. Crescent sweep 8k crit. Bat swarm around 6k. Eye of flame easy dot to avoid. What is making ferocious leap hit do damn hard? Also with the change to burning talons it's hitting vamps for 2.1k+ also riposte mages tree is hitting for 3k+. Why are such simple skills hitting for so much?

Zos hasn't balanced anything other than procs. Although I got hit with a 6k validreth today. So that's debatable. So at least in cp, burst is still off the chart, If I want to survive with 24k health I have to start spamming my healing ward at half health. Insane.

12.5k leap is an empowered leap and you must be a vamp that takes more damage with fire... You do realize you can block this right? I had 26k in death recap last night from a gap closing with immoviable pot nb with destro staff.. no defense at all from this ...

12.5 leap is 25k leap that extremely high btw 90% of Mag DKs do not hit this hard on leap its closer to the 10k mark on low armor toons with poor champ point utilization... look at your champ points you need to look at mitigation..

Leap is fine in fact its one of the nice ult out there... I actually use DB over leap now as a stam DK... My mag. DK can not achieve a 12.5 non crit leap in PVP he can pull off a 10k on someone that has no clue what they are doing ..

Akinos

So, I believe I'm the MagDK the OP is referring too lol. He tried to Xv1 me several times earlier this morning, before he made this thread. I'll just say I was on fire with my new build and was killing people left and right.
Even though I have hit some people for 12.5k non crit leap, but I'm pretty sure the leap he's talking about was a crit.
Check this screenshot:
RIght click and view image to see the full size.

OdinForge

Akinos wrote: »

So, I believe I'm the MagDK the OP is referring too lol. He tried to Xv1 me several times earlier this morning, before he made this thread. I'll just say I was on fire with my new build and was killing people left and right.
Even though I have hit some people for 12.5k non crit leap, but I'm pretty sure the leap he's talking about was a crit.
Check this screenshot:
RIght click and view image to see the full size.

LMAO

gabormezo

Hey, @Akinos! Could you share with us the details of your build, please?

thankyourat

Akinos wrote: »

So, I believe I'm the MagDK the OP is referring too lol. He tried to Xv1 me several times earlier this morning, before he made this thread. I'll just say I was on fire with my new build and was killing people left and right.
Even though I have hit some people for 12.5k non crit leap, but I'm pretty sure the leap he's talking about was a crit.
Check this screenshot:
RIght click and view image to see the full size.

Lol. I've have been hit with a few leaps that make me want to get rid of vampirism

julianlookhrwb17_ESO

I am currently playing StamDK for a few months and honestly dragon leap on kills if the opponent have weaker defenses or they are at knock down state. But using it on experience pvper, it is an utimate wasted and their HP drop like 5% or max 10% only because they are blocking or spamming shield at that moment when my leap hits him.
DragonKnight are meant to charge to the front, luckily u didn't fought a MagDK 1v1 yet and it is very hard to kill because their magic regen while fighting or blocking, they can spam shield...... actually stam build requires cheese build to execute that kind of burst damage because when we rolled, we block, sprinting and executing skills we are using stamina without any regen compared to magicka it regens all the time plus we are constantly melee mode in close range.
StamDK are the hardest class to play cause spamming skills are instant death compare to spamming shields and healing which is their bread and butter for survivability.

So please stop nerfing DK because there are still some players that still love that berserker style of play.

Maskov

Durham

Akinos wrote: »

So, I believe I'm the MagDK the OP is referring too lol. He tried to Xv1 me several times earlier this morning, before he made this thread. I'll just say I was on fire with my new build and was killing people left and right.
Even though I have hit some people for 12.5k non crit leap, but I'm pretty sure the leap he's talking about was a crit.
Check this screenshot:
RIght click and view image to see the full size.

I thought a non crit 12.5 was to much ... My stam leap which delves 21k atm hits for about 8 to 9k non crit... like I said I use DB at the moment it delves for 15k with 14k short duration dot and hits vamps 20% harder... ... I also run low crit because I'm in heavy ..
Glad you had something to clear this up abit...

Joy_Division

HiImRex wrote: »

What... all cp does is add damage, cancel it out with damage mitigation, and then make everything else you do cost less or do more.

...

I'm having trouble understanding the statement that the game has been balanced with cp in mind. Seems to me cp was thrown in on top with no balancing adjustments to mitigate or balance the added power & mechanics and then a couple bandaids thrown over to fix the huge imbalances that occurred.

It actually does a lot more than that.

The CP system took a lot of mechanics from the base game that was accessible to players, stuff from resource return on heavy attacks, crit, cost reductions, so many things, etc., and locked it behind an end-game progression system as a carrot to keep us logging in every day just so we can get back what was stolen from us.

Then ZoS, in it's failure to comprehend how removing soft caps coupled with the speed players grinded CPs, quickly recognized that PvP was full of one-shots, instant-heals, perma-blockers, and infinite dodge rollers so they implemented Battle-Spirit, roll dodge fatigue, removed stam regen from blocking, etc., all of this was implemented in the base game 1000% because of CP and it's in all the game's formats, including non-CP.

Then came Morrowind with the whole "infinite resource, maximum damage" complaints, which were only relevant to max CP gameplay and not no CP PvP, which prompted ZoS to not only make a overhaul in the CP system, but make fundamental chnges to class, armor, and a whole bunch of changes so mechanics would no longer scale to a max stat. CP has prompted ZoS to make wholesale changes to mechanics (read nerfs) that have nothing to do with CP, which is why I want them to do away with the ill thought out CP system altogether.

How you can type that you have trouble understanding that the game has been balanced with CP in mind is mind-boggling. We get it, you prefer no CP PvP, but statements like that just not true at all.

Scamh

CyrusArya wrote: »

but I can see why you might feel otherwise coming from a campaign where you were fighting mostly new players who are probably running around in gear they picked up questing. Welcome to pvping with actually geared and experienced players.

yeah there are literally 0 newbies to 1vX in the cp campaign
everyone you run into is basically a supergeared BIS pvp professional travelling the world and getting all the chicks etc

truth

CyrusArya wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

@CyrusArya umm what? Calling total BS on the bolded.

Ok my post might have been a bit of an exaggeration. There are good and bad, geared and ungeared players on both servers.

orly

HiImRex

Joy_Division wrote: »

How you can type that you have trouble understanding that the game has been balanced with CP in mind is mind-boggling. We get it, you prefer no CP PvP, but statements like that just not true at all.

I'm responding to the idea that the entire game classes etc have been designed and balanced around CP. I guess a lot happened to this game that I don't know but just looking at the game mechanics as is now nothing really requires CP to make sense. Dodge roll fatigue makes sense in non CP, it's a sensible mechanic. Sustain also makes sense in no CP as well as the game is currently designed even after Morrowind.

About the ONLY thing that I can see as being exclusively in the game for CP that breaks non CP a bit is cost poisons.

what I've seen personally is that ZOS has continuously tried to apply fixes to the problems created by CP. That's not exactly designing the class skills and combat around CP, that's identifying the problems that occur with CP and trying to mitigate it.

Again the idea I'm responding to is game was designed/adjusted/balanced for CP, implying that non CP is a senseless place of combat mechanics that don't balance or play well. Absolutely false and nothing ZOS has done other than cost poisons really has this effect.

As for CP doing a lot more than what I described... what else does it do currently other than what I described? It literally is split into DMG+ and DMG mitigation plus some passives to make some things cheaper or more efficient. There are some wonky tree bonuses like the block 3 spells to auto crit, unchained, etc but that's about it isn't it. I described it pretty much perfectly as it currently stands.

NBrookus

Durham wrote: »

Akinos wrote: »

So, I believe I'm the MagDK the OP is referring too lol. He tried to Xv1 me several times earlier this morning, before he made this thread. I'll just say I was on fire with my new build and was killing people left and right.
Even though I have hit some people for 12.5k non crit leap, but I'm pretty sure the leap he's talking about was a crit.
Check this screenshot:
RIght click and view image to see the full size.

I thought a non crit 12.5 was to much ... My stam leap which delves 21k atm hits for about 8 to 9k non crit... like I said I use DB at the moment it delves for 15k with 14k short duration dot and hits vamps 20% harder... ... I also run low crit because I'm in heavy ..
Glad you had something to clear this up abit...

Not empowered. I hit a 21k empowered once, but was a low CP target.

That build was 100% around setting up a high burst; judging from @Akinos' CLS it may be the same build, which should be stronger this patch than last.

Waffennacht

Next time I see someone post a, "No CP is preferred by the majority" post, I expect every single one of you guys on this thread to actually post, "no it's not"

Always so quiet on their threads and so vocal on these