Battlegrounds game modes are horribly designed and need changes

AhPook_Is_Here

Muttsmutt wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Maybe they just got the game design wrong, all they have to do to make it harder to cap is make it so that to cap you must have your flag and both the other teams flags at your cap to earn a point and each player can only carry 1 relic. Cap points could be static but you should also be able to carry your own relic. This would create a new type of CTF, what this game has is just 2 flag ctf with 3 flags, so lazy.

each player CAN carry only one relic.
juust thought i'd point that out.
perhaps you meant each team to carry one relic.

Thanks, I'm aware of that, however all you need is your flag on the cap and 1 other flag to score, the point I'm trying to make is that in a 3 way ctf game you could make it so that 3/4 of your team would have to be holding a flag at the capture point to score, thus encouraging fighting as one team would need to collect the flags and that would take enough time for the other two teams to challenge them.

Gravord

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

So you suck at playing the objective? Who said PvP has to be all about K/D. When i get someone like you on my team, running around mindlessly killing people in CTF, instead of going for a relic, getting our own back etc, i get pissed.

If you would try to actually play the games, you would realize there are much more to it than just "coward gear" runner. But if you insist on playing everything like a Deathmatch, then GG to you.

And if the only thing that interests you is K/D, then go to Cyro. No one ever said BG was supposed to be one big Deathmatch.

No one also said deathmatch wont ever pop and turn battlegrounds into coward sprintgrounds either. If you love so much run like a coward and never take part in actual combat, by all means go for it. I dont like it, "playing objective" in pvp that doesnt include actual pvp is a bad design to me, i dont ask for it to be removed it from game or say to you to gtfo from bgs, i ask for option to choose game mode i queue for. Is it somehow too complicated to comprehend? Or you are just one of these objective heroes on 0/20 kd that have no clue how to fight and can only sprint around and got hurt by my posts?

That runspeed strategy only works against bad teams that go into the match trying to play deathmatch.

It works against everything, heavy cowards with with s&b ult.

Game modes where pvp doesn't matter is pointless.

Precisely, sady for some ppl in this topic is too hard to understand this simple truth.

Karm1cOne

I think they need to remove the kd from the end screen and increase relevance of the medals. Too many teammates trying to deathmatch every game.

Avran_Sylt

If you really want an even match, then you'll have to create it yourself. Start a guild, open invites on the forums. If you're thinking you'll be able to get evenly matched teams every time from a random queue, then you're delusional. The better you get at the game, the fewer people who can compare, which means longer queue times you'll face (With a weighted queue), and which will be the new reason you rage. Not everyone is equally skilled in this game, or has the time to improve those skills. That's why they have different game types. for people who are not as good at PvP, but are good at playing an objective.

What you've shown is that you're good at killing people, but can't work around a different ruleset. *** L2P, adapt.

That relic carrier running from you? while the game is setting up, slot in silver leash. Domination? go a bit tanky and hold the objectives you cap rather than just running from one to the next. In order to win all you need is at least 2 while the enemy dukes it out over the other two.

If you want to purely PvP, just *** duel or get a guild going that hosts battles in Cyrodiil (away from keeps). Setup Forward camps for easy respawns. Hell, you could get proper XvX battles going that way, and all that would be customizable by you.

You could even pick the goddamned terrain.

Jitterbug

I love this game and the PvP and bla bla bla, but ZOS has a real tendency to snowflake EVERYTHING! Tried, tested, and true PvP gamemodes and setups are not good enough. It needs to have a weird and unique twist to everything that sometimes hinders actual solid gameplay.
So, @ZOS_RichLambert and @ZOS_BrianWheeler I applaud your ideals, but please acknowledge the need for some good ol' fashioned. Everyone needs a little ol' fashioned sometimes ;-)

Gravord

Karm1cOne wrote: »

I think they need to remove the kd from the end screen and increase relevance of the medals. Too many teammates trying to deathmatch every game.

Maaaybe because they cant queue for actual deathmatch and it nevers pop?

Strider_Roshin

Honestly how do you mess this up?!

"Hey Zenimax, we want Battlegrounds so we can consistently have small scale combat"

ZOS: "That's nice. Enjoy popping an immovability + speed pot while moving a flag-err *cough* relic instead. Oh, and in case you weren't sure if procs were an issue, we're going to hand them out through our weekly vender consistently afterwards just in case. Enjoy not PvPing!"

Waffennacht

Jitterbug wrote: »

I love this game and the PvP and bla bla bla, but ZOS has a real tendency to snowflake EVERYTHING! Tried, tested, and true PvP gamemodes and setups are not good enough. It needs to have a weird and unique twist to everything that sometimes hinders actual solid gameplay.
So, @ZOS_RichLambert and @ZOS_BrianWheeler I applaud your ideals, but please acknowledge the need for some good ol' fashioned. Everyone needs a little ol' fashioned sometimes ;-)

This

And this:

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Honestly how do you mess this up?!

"Hey Zenimax, we want Battlegrounds so we can consistently have small scale combat"

ZOS: "That's nice. Enjoy popping an immovability + speed pot while moving a flag-err *cough* relic instead. Oh, and in case you weren't sure if procs were an issue, we're going to hand them out through our weekly vender consistently afterwards just in case. Enjoy not PvPing!"

ak_pvp

CTF I find is fine, you have to PvP for the flags in the first place, whats inherently wrong is the balance, thery should half external healing so your pet Templar can't keep you alive forever.

But domination is horrible.The way the flags are captured are awful, no matter is a fight is going on on a flag, the team with the most players can run in and ignore the defenders, taking the flag straight away. This means defending flags is useless. (Not to mention the 500 defensive execution achievement which is unreasonable.) It promotes a silly dog chasing its own tail war of attrition play style.

The way it should be is if any fight is happening on a flag be it 1v4 or 4v4, the furthest it can flip is white. Meaning teams actually have to fight to win. But as flags will be contested more, make them give more points whilst uncontested.

zomnomnombie

Gravord wrote: »

Perfect example of "winner" team and what happens in pretty much all matches of this 2 game modes.

I think there's a difference between killing and killing to win.

Racking up kills can easily win you a match. A full 17 second respawn on Relic or Domination is way more back breaking than on Deathmatch.

Or if you're fighting over the wrong objectives it can make it a little too close for comfort.

Fighting can lose you a match if you're committing too much to any one fight. Sometimes you want to run down that one person from the winning team because you know they'll be undermanned. But sometimes you just need to leave the tank holding block alone on his flag and let the other team get distracted by them.


I do agree generally that scoring needs some tweaking. I think players should earn more points for killing other players near objectives such as your relic carrier and flags you own. Perhaps even points for killing team members from the winning team.

Gravord

Gravord wrote: »

Finally, after waiting 2 months to be able actually enter battlegrounds, we can play them. And first though i get is "i waited for THAT??". Deathmatch, only game mode worth my time, happen once per 20 games at best. 2 other game modes are badly designed and goes down to which team have more sorcs porting aroud or how many coward set runners team have. It goes to the point where players caugh in fight intentionally allow themselves die faster without fighting back, so they can respawn quicker and run to empty objective flag or to grab and sprint/port with relic. Its horribly boring, disgusting and have nothing to do with promised "fast paced COMBAT". Didnt payed for Morrowind and waited 2 months for group finder to work more or less to participate in some skilless boredom racing games.
Devs need to respond to those issues (aswell as continue fixing group finder). Easy and quick solution would be to allow to queue for specific game mode, so players intersted in actual pvp not street race can play deathmatch only all the time. More effort would be redesigning capture the relic and domination that combat is required:
- domination - to cap a flag you have to participate in 1-3 kills on enemy team, then and only then you can capture one flag for your team
- relic running - relic runner doesnt benefit from ANY speed buffs and his speed is cut in 50%/25% when he holds the relic, so his team have to actually protect him, not watch him swing 30% coward delivering in mere seconds while taking no dmg in the process.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

Care to comment?
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

idk

It's good to have some objective based battlegrounds. Just death matches would be boring. Taking and defending objectives is very much PvP and total death matches all the time would be boring.

s7732425ub17_ESO

Capture the Relic just does not play well in ESO. It's very gimmicky and filled with permablock or speed builds.

Deathmatch is the best. Domination is decent, but the maps are poorly designed to where you spend most of your time running around the map instead of killing people.

Also, domination scoring is buggy. There have been some close games where one team should have won but another team took it simply due to how the points get added. If one team controls 3 capture points and another controls 1 and both are within one score tick of winning, it's RNG which team wins. This is BAD!!

Feanor

CTF is just so bad. Nothing but tanks carrying these relics. What makes this worse is a) you can't choose the game mode and b) Deathmatch is like a one in 20 these days. I always cringe when I spot that "CTF-50" in the top right corner after loading into the map.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

It's good to have some objective based battlegrounds. Just death matches would be boring. Taking and defending objectives is very much PvP and total death matches all the time would be boring.

But they need to come up with a way to let people queue up for a specific map if that is what they want. And then give a bonus reward for running random.

TarrNokk

For taking a relic it should be needed more than just pass by and run Like speedy gonzales. Maybe standing still with a sheathed weapon and a take-time of lets say 2 seconds would make the grabbing way more competitive.

Soleya

Gravord wrote: »

Perfect example of "winner" team and what happens in pretty much all matches of this 2 game modes.

Glad to see it's not just me then.



Crazy thing, based on the medals, you can see I was killing relic carriers, etc, even captured one flag. But I got half the score of someone with 0 kills.

Velvelya

Follow the directives or lose. Seems fair to me.

exeeter702

Thogard wrote: »

Wait so you're saying the objective in capture the flag isn't to get as many kills a day possible? WHY DIDNT SOMEONE TELL ME!?!?!

But seriously, whining about losing to a team that is actually Playing the game mode makes you even more of a scrub than people who whine about proc sets or sorc shields. The game is capture the flag, so if you can't capture the flag you lose. Congrats on trying to play deathmatch inside of capture the flag? Maybe spend ten minutes tops having a backup set in your inventory to equip for CTF, it isn't exactly rocket science.

CTF actually has some pretty complex strategies involved with it. The healing debuff that builds up over time makes things interesting. Defense is played by grabbing the enemy's flag rather than trying to prevent them from grabbing your, which then usually leads to a nice 4v4 battle.

I would like to see the ability to choose which mode we play. That would be nice. But until then, you should try using some of the tactics you're whining about - they aren't exactly hard to acquire.

What nonsense...

There are plenty of examples across multiple mmos where a properly desgined battle ground mode creates a great sense of objective based pvp while completely maintaining an incentive to actually get into combat with opposing players.

There is nothing in depth nor is there anything that even closely resembles strategic depth in bgs here where you are actively punished for getting into combat.

It is an unpopular opinion but frankly, ZOS' insistence on making bgs a 3 way team deal is the primary cause for this trash.

"Complex strategies"........ lol.

UppGRAYxDD

Or ZOS could just let us the consumer choose the game mode like any other rational PvP game. I dont know if its a money saving ploy, an information gathering tool, or just some dev wearing a tinfoil hat screaming "you shall not pass without playing 15 games or CTF"...

Thogard

exeeter702 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Wait so you're saying the objective in capture the flag isn't to get as many kills a day possible? WHY DIDNT SOMEONE TELL ME!?!?!

But seriously, whining about losing to a team that is actually Playing the game mode makes you even more of a scrub than people who whine about proc sets or sorc shields. The game is capture the flag, so if you can't capture the flag you lose. Congrats on trying to play deathmatch inside of capture the flag? Maybe spend ten minutes tops having a backup set in your inventory to equip for CTF, it isn't exactly rocket science.

CTF actually has some pretty complex strategies involved with it. The healing debuff that builds up over time makes things interesting. Defense is played by grabbing the enemy's flag rather than trying to prevent them from grabbing your, which then usually leads to a nice 4v4 battle.

I would like to see the ability to choose which mode we play. That would be nice. But until then, you should try using some of the tactics you're whining about - they aren't exactly hard to acquire.

What nonsense...

There are plenty of examples across multiple mmos where a properly desgined battle ground mode creates a great sense of objective based pvp while completely maintaining an incentive to actually get into combat with opposing players.

There is nothing in depth nor is there anything that even closely resembles strategic depth in bgs here where you are actively punished for getting into combat.

It is an unpopular opinion but frankly, ZOS' insistence on making bgs a 3 way team deal is the primary cause for this trash.

"Complex strategies"........ lol.

I wonder if your lack of understanding is causing you to whine and lose, or if it's the losing that's causing you to whine and forego trying to understand the game mode.

CTF is by far the most complex of the three modes when you have good teams playing each other. It's also the one that leads to the best fights (until they remove sigil from TDM) if you have good teams who know what they're doing.

ak_pvp

Thogard wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Wait so you're saying the objective in capture the flag isn't to get as many kills a day possible? WHY DIDNT SOMEONE TELL ME!?!?!

But seriously, whining about losing to a team that is actually Playing the game mode makes you even more of a scrub than people who whine about proc sets or sorc shields. The game is capture the flag, so if you can't capture the flag you lose. Congrats on trying to play deathmatch inside of capture the flag? Maybe spend ten minutes tops having a backup set in your inventory to equip for CTF, it isn't exactly rocket science.

CTF actually has some pretty complex strategies involved with it. The healing debuff that builds up over time makes things interesting. Defense is played by grabbing the enemy's flag rather than trying to prevent them from grabbing your, which then usually leads to a nice 4v4 battle.

I would like to see the ability to choose which mode we play. That would be nice. But until then, you should try using some of the tactics you're whining about - they aren't exactly hard to acquire.

What nonsense...

There are plenty of examples across multiple mmos where a properly desgined battle ground mode creates a great sense of objective based pvp while completely maintaining an incentive to actually get into combat with opposing players.

There is nothing in depth nor is there anything that even closely resembles strategic depth in bgs here where you are actively punished for getting into combat.

It is an unpopular opinion but frankly, ZOS' insistence on making bgs a 3 way team deal is the primary cause for this trash.

"Complex strategies"........ lol.

I wonder if your lack of understanding is causing you to whine and lose, or if it's the losing that's causing you to whine and forego trying to understand the game mode.

CTF is by far the most complex of the three modes when you have good teams playing each other. It's also the one that leads to the best fights (until they remove sigil from TDM) if you have good teams who know what they're doing.

I agree, CTF requires thought into who you want to attack, regain your relic, and you have to change plans on the fly. The only issue is balance with run builds.

Domination is a real *** show.

paulsimonps

So people are complaining that they loose cause they are not playing the objective of the game?

Gravord

paulsimonps wrote: »

So people are complaining that they loose cause they are not playing the objective of the game?

Maybe you should read topic again? People are complaining that objective have horrible boring design rewarding avoiding pvp, in a thing that should be highest level of pvp. So they ask to choose game mode they will play. Its rather simple and justified.

andreasv

Gravord wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

So people are complaining that they loose cause they are not playing the objective of the game?

Maybe you should read topic again? People are complaining that objective have horrible boring design rewarding avoiding pvp, in a thing that should be highest level of pvp. So they ask to choose game mode they will play. Its rather simple and justified.

Just chiming in to point out that PvP stands for Player versus Player, and does not necessarily requires killing another player. And as teams of players compete against each other your argument of missing PvP is incorrect.

I do agree that players should be able to choose what type of PvP they want to play.

ParaNostram

Gravord wrote: »

Perfect example of "winner" team and what happens in pretty much all matches of this 2 game modes.

It's called playing the objective. In deathmatch I near always have a positive K/D ratio but in the other game modes I often do not. Why? Because my life in those games is not as important as potentially flipping a point, preventing a point from being flipped, capturing a flag, or preventing a flag from being capped.

Here, to put it in established Cyrodil PvP equivalents, you don't win the campaign from having the most kills, it doesn't matter if everyone on your faction and campaign is [insert streamer here] winning 1vX's all day err'day, if you don't play the objective you lose.

To further hammer this in, let's look at good ol' World of Warcraft battlegrounds. Know what was the most annoying thing in Arathi Basin? People fighting off the flag. You didn't hear "WTF how we loose gaiz I killed so many peeps!" you hear "way to not fight on the flag you [insert dated insult here]!"

Edit: Even in those other games that people say are so well designed (spoiler, they are for the most part) they still have the flaws that OP mentioned. Engaging in team fights near always benefits the team in the lead as it keeps everyone else occupied as you,re still, wait for it, winning. Want to engage in fights? Secure the lead then fight to keep the other teams occupied.

Feanor

Yes, CTF is a horrible game mode. I will stop caring though as soon as we finally get the option to choose game modes. Should have been there at launch and not some "grab bag" nonsense.

Meld777

Gravord wrote: »

Yup, punished for pvping.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Pvp games mode where if you pvp you lose
It's a joke.
Kills should always mean something, even if its only like 3 point per kill.

Maybe enemy scrolls should also move 1 inch closer towards your gate every time you kill someone?

How exactly are you punished for PvPing? Are you also going to Cyrodiil and getting 100s of kills at some gate while the enemy is sieging and taking all your scrolls? Do you complain about that as well?

If you wanna kill, you're free to do so. It's PvP. But killing is not the game's objective. It just helps.

Damn, how I hate those people in BG that just go fight some random tanks between objectives for the whole match while I'm the only one trying to win the game.

idk

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

It's good to have some objective based battlegrounds. Just death matches would be boring. Taking and defending objectives is very much PvP and total death matches all the time would be boring.

But they need to come up with a way to let people queue up for a specific map if that is what they want. And then give a bonus reward for running random.

Not really. It would slow down the queue overall. Including for death matches and that would be bad. Okay, I think it would be bad, then again some may like to have long wait times for the queue during peak hours.

Gravord

Meld777 wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Yup, punished for pvping.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

How exactly are you punished for PvPing? .

Really need to elaborate it? If one team fight vs another, the team that doesnt fight cap relics or flags easily and win the match without participating in combat. So yes, it is favoring avoiding pvp because objective design is crap,