Best way to balance shield stacking Magicka Sorcerers?

LordSlif

There is only 1 problem with the shields: pirate skeleton. Yeah it's a problem.
Shields are not the problem, the problem is: their high burst damage with strong shields.

Juhasow

Sharee wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Option 7: make shields susceptible to debuffs, the way heals are. For the same reason battle spirit lowers both heal strength and shield strength - they are both a variant of "healing", one reactive, one proactive.

But that would also require making shields susceptible to healing buffs the way heals are so many builds that dont have healing debuffs would fail against sorcs in Malubeth.

I meant making shields susceptible to debuffs like heals are. Not necessarily to the same debuffs. Shields would get their own buff/debuff category, one that would be balanced separately, and malubeth would not affect it.

Another buff/debuff category ? Who would have anough space on bars to slot additional skills ?

Who says anything about additional skills? The debuffs could be attached to already existing skills.

Juhasow wrote: »

Sorc could get even more adventage of it then they have now if they would get buff category that increases shield strenght.

Now that would entirely depend on the availability of said buffs/debuffs to the various classes, wouldn't it.

If there would be spammable buff that increasing shields strenght sorcs would do everything to get that. That's why pirate skeleton is so popular atm and it depends of proc chance so imagine what would happen if You could get similar buff as spammable one.

First I was thinking similar way but now I think that ballanciing 1 thing by adding whole new minor/major buffs/debuffs category is little too much. There are easier and simplier ways which dont create potential of making shields even stronger. We can work on lowering current sorc burst potential or resource managment so they would be force to lower max magicka and inveast into spell dmg/regen/cost reduction.

Wreuntzylla

Floki_Vilgerdarson wrote: »

As someone mentioned above, sorcs are going to have to balance resources between keeping their shields up and doing damage. They can be tanky or do burst damage, but doing both will take better resource management.

Either way the patch notes are the Nerf you are looking for.

Floki

I don't get it. If you nerf sustain across the board, how is it that only sorc is affected? I thought it was a blanket nerf?

Universe

Emma_Overload wrote: »

None of the above. Leave Sorcs alone!

Exactly.
Also, please increase the shields duration to 10-12 seconds.

Thanks!

Biro123

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Floki_Vilgerdarson wrote: »

As someone mentioned above, sorcs are going to have to balance resources between keeping their shields up and doing damage. They can be tanky or do burst damage, but doing both will take better resource management.

Either way the patch notes are the Nerf you are looking for.

Floki

I don't get it. If you nerf sustain across the board, how is it that only sorc is affected? I thought it was a blanket nerf?

Yeah, a lot of people don't get this.. Its not that sorcs are the only ones affected - but they are affected MORE. Here's how it goes..



Lets say your survivability comes from blocking/mitigation/healing. You're in a many vs many fight, happily run around block-casting attacks from range ithout a care in the world for maybe 10 seconds until somebody attacks you back. You block the attack - it costs you some stamina, you only take a little damage

Lets say you do a channel - and get hit while not blocking - so you've lost some more health and need to heal - so you cast a heal...

The only defensive resources you have used are the cost of one block and one heal.

Now for a sorc entering the same fight - a sorc who is being careful on resources and NOT constantly shield-stacking.
First you cast a shield, and move into range. Do your 3-second rotation, cast another shield. 3 second rotation, another shield, another 3 secs, another shield. You get attacked, damaging your shield - so immediately pop your 2n'd shield.

Do you rotation again, and your frag gets reflected. You know its gonna knock you down and you need to re-shield anytime so don't want to be on your butt with no shield - so you block to avoid the knockdown - and re-shield.

So for that same duration of combat, and same amount of incoming attacks, both have done one block (nb sorcs generally have no CP's spent in block cost reduction) - but the sorc cast 6 shields - the other player cast one heal.

Shields are expensive to cast. The resource changes makes them even more expensive and recovery slower.

See, this is the advantage of reactive defences - they only cost resources when needed.


Can a sorc use shields reactively? Well, casting a shield does not instantly ani-cancel anything else you are doing like block or dodge - and the effect does not apply until right at the end of the animation - so no.
Can they take the hit and heal up afterwards? Not with light armour they can't - and especially not if using divines/infused rather than impen to get that bigger shield.

incite

"Look guys, another player getting 1vX'ed by a mag sorc and blames zos instead of his own gameplay"

These "solution options" are horrifying *** beyond all measure, not a clue what he's talking about, at all...

Hexys

It's not about nerfing sorcs shield-wise, it's about buffing other classes to be able to reach the same.

So my solution would be to add shield strength to light armor passives and bring a nerf to hardened ward.

All classes will have class-shields (except nightblades):
+ Sorc has mobility
+ Dk has heals
+ Templar has heals
+ Nightblade has mobility (if they give them snare immunity in one of their skills)

LordSlif

Biro123 wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Floki_Vilgerdarson wrote: »

As someone mentioned above, sorcs are going to have to balance resources between keeping their shields up and doing damage. They can be tanky or do burst damage, but doing both will take better resource management.

Either way the patch notes are the Nerf you are looking for.

Floki

I don't get it. If you nerf sustain across the board, how is it that only sorc is affected? I thought it was a blanket nerf?

So for that same duration of combat, and same amount of incoming attacks, both have done one block (nb sorcs generally have no CP's spent in block cost reduction) - but the sorc cast 6 shields - the other player cast one heal.

1 heals is not equal to 6 shields

Derra

Make shields susceptible to armor and spell penetration

Hexys wrote: »

It's not about nerfing sorcs shield-wise, it's about buffing other classes to be able to reach the same.

So my solution would be to add shield strength to light armor passives and bring a nerf to hardened ward.

So people that don´t use hardened + harness on sorc get ***?
Yay for more stacking shields. Oh wait.

Dracindo

... All of the above? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

DeviousCat

Stop whining about Sorc's and L2P.

technohic

I hesitate to want a nerf on shields as its rare enough to see light armor in PvP.

I actually would just change the way they work. Make them just a little bit stronger, get rid of the timer on them, limit it to 1 shield only, tipple the cost. Something like that to make them not be a spammable or stackable with maybe an exception to barrier which is an ultimate or healing ward which also acts as a heal.

Dk_needs_a_buff

Better visuals queues for opponent to time burst (example: shield is very noticeable when first applied and fades down as damage/time limit decreases)

SHIELDS ARE NOT OP! TRY DROPPING YOUR HEAVY GEAR META AND PUT SOME MEDOUM ON.

IF YOU CANT BURST THROUGH A SORCS SHIELD THEN L2P!

Biro123

LordSlif wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Floki_Vilgerdarson wrote: »

As someone mentioned above, sorcs are going to have to balance resources between keeping their shields up and doing damage. They can be tanky or do burst damage, but doing both will take better resource management.

Either way the patch notes are the Nerf you are looking for.

Floki

I don't get it. If you nerf sustain across the board, how is it that only sorc is affected? I thought it was a blanket nerf?

So for that same duration of combat, and same amount of incoming attacks, both have done one block (nb sorcs generally have no CP's spent in block cost reduction) - but the sorc cast 6 shields - the other player cast one heal.

1 heals is not equal to 6 shields

You're right. one heal doesn't take up half of your magica pool. You're intentionally missing the point. (just like I just did with your point)

Biro123

I wonder if shields could have some kind of system where they last longer, and are bigger - but can only absorb a certain % of their size per second.. Makes them more sustainable - but easier to burst through... Or perhaps if only hardened worked this way, but harness was still the same, maybe.. (depending on the size of that %)

Wreuntzylla

Biro123 wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Floki_Vilgerdarson wrote: »

As someone mentioned above, sorcs are going to have to balance resources between keeping their shields up and doing damage. They can be tanky or do burst damage, but doing both will take better resource management.

Either way the patch notes are the Nerf you are looking for.

Floki

I don't get it. If you nerf sustain across the board, how is it that only sorc is affected? I thought it was a blanket nerf?

Yeah, a lot of people don't get this.. Its not that sorcs are the only ones affected - but they are affected MORE. Here's how it goes..



Lets say your survivability comes from blocking/mitigation/healing. You're in a many vs many fight, happily run around block-casting attacks from range ithout a care in the world for maybe 10 seconds until somebody attacks you back. You block the attack - it costs you some stamina, you only take a little damage

Lets say you do a channel - and get hit while not blocking - so you've lost some more health and need to heal - so you cast a heal...

The only defensive resources you have used are the cost of one block and one heal.

Now for a sorc entering the same fight - a sorc who is being careful on resources and NOT constantly shield-stacking.
First you cast a shield, and move into range. Do your 3-second rotation, cast another shield. 3 second rotation, another shield, another 3 secs, another shield. You get attacked, damaging your shield - so immediately pop your 2n'd shield.

Do you rotation again, and your frag gets reflected. You know its gonna knock you down and you need to re-shield anytime so don't want to be on your butt with no shield - so you block to avoid the knockdown - and re-shield.

So for that same duration of combat, and same amount of incoming attacks, both have done one block (nb sorcs generally have no CP's spent in block cost reduction) - but the sorc cast 6 shields - the other player cast one heal.

Shields are expensive to cast. The resource changes makes them even more expensive and recovery slower.

See, this is the advantage of reactive defences - they only cost resources when needed.


Can a sorc use shields reactively? Well, casting a shield does not instantly ani-cancel anything else you are doing like block or dodge - and the effect does not apply until right at the end of the animation - so no.
Can they take the hit and heal up afterwards? Not with light armour they can't - and especially not if using divines/infused rather than impen to get that bigger shield.

Good explanation. I take it blazing shield and health DK specs are dead also, then.

How does defensive rune affect that analysis?

Valencer

Biro123 wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Floki_Vilgerdarson wrote: »

As someone mentioned above, sorcs are going to have to balance resources between keeping their shields up and doing damage. They can be tanky or do burst damage, but doing both will take better resource management.

Either way the patch notes are the Nerf you are looking for.

Floki

I don't get it. If you nerf sustain across the board, how is it that only sorc is affected? I thought it was a blanket nerf?

Yeah, a lot of people don't get this.. Its not that sorcs are the only ones affected - but they are affected MORE. Here's how it goes..



Lets say your survivability comes from blocking/mitigation/healing. You're in a many vs many fight, happily run around block-casting attacks from range ithout a care in the world for maybe 10 seconds until somebody attacks you back. You block the attack - it costs you some stamina, you only take a little damage

Lets say you do a channel - and get hit while not blocking - so you've lost some more health and need to heal - so you cast a heal...

The only defensive resources you have used are the cost of one block and one heal.

Now for a sorc entering the same fight - a sorc who is being careful on resources and NOT constantly shield-stacking.
First you cast a shield, and move into range. Do your 3-second rotation, cast another shield. 3 second rotation, another shield, another 3 secs, another shield. You get attacked, damaging your shield - so immediately pop your 2n'd shield.

Do you rotation again, and your frag gets reflected. You know its gonna knock you down and you need to re-shield anytime so don't want to be on your butt with no shield - so you block to avoid the knockdown - and re-shield.

So for that same duration of combat, and same amount of incoming attacks, both have done one block (nb sorcs generally have no CP's spent in block cost reduction) - but the sorc cast 6 shields - the other player cast one heal.

Shields are expensive to cast. The resource changes makes them even more expensive and recovery slower.

See, this is the advantage of reactive defences - they only cost resources when needed.


Can a sorc use shields reactively? Well, casting a shield does not instantly ani-cancel anything else you are doing like block or dodge - and the effect does not apply until right at the end of the animation - so no.
Can they take the hit and heal up afterwards? Not with light armour they can't - and especially not if using divines/infused rather than impen to get that bigger shield.

No, wards are basically the magicka equivalent of blocking when youre taking heavy burst damage. You actually do have a reactive heal and it's called Healing Ward.

Now, most magicka sorcs will get blown up if they try to use ward and annulment reactively but thats only because of gear choices they take for granted. No other class can hope to survive in 5 light (and with some pieces not impenetrable, even).

Magicka sorcs arent overpowered. Pirate Skeleton, Necropotence, Lich, Burning Spellweave, Amberplasm etc are all ridiculously strong build options that maybe shouldnt have been added to the game the way they are right now.

But hey, same can be said for other specs and sets like velidreth, selene, tremorscale, viper, draugr hulk etc etc. People are just picking on magicka sorcs because if youre fighting a magicka sorc and dont have enough burst damage the fight can genuinely feel hopeless. Not being able to dent an enemy's healthbar tends to *** people off.

Docmandu

None of the above.

Make shields not stackable and maybe allow Defile to work versus shields (or something like defile, but a different effect).
Harness Magicka could use some tweaking too.. I know ZOS will just say stop attacking with magicka, like the "heavy armor" wrath counter reply.. but yeah... that was /cluebat worthy.

Biro123

Valencer wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Floki_Vilgerdarson wrote: »

As someone mentioned above, sorcs are going to have to balance resources between keeping their shields up and doing damage. They can be tanky or do burst damage, but doing both will take better resource management.

Either way the patch notes are the Nerf you are looking for.

Floki

I don't get it. If you nerf sustain across the board, how is it that only sorc is affected? I thought it was a blanket nerf?

Yeah, a lot of people don't get this.. Its not that sorcs are the only ones affected - but they are affected MORE. Here's how it goes..



Lets say your survivability comes from blocking/mitigation/healing. You're in a many vs many fight, happily run around block-casting attacks from range ithout a care in the world for maybe 10 seconds until somebody attacks you back. You block the attack - it costs you some stamina, you only take a little damage

Lets say you do a channel - and get hit while not blocking - so you've lost some more health and need to heal - so you cast a heal...

The only defensive resources you have used are the cost of one block and one heal.

Now for a sorc entering the same fight - a sorc who is being careful on resources and NOT constantly shield-stacking.
First you cast a shield, and move into range. Do your 3-second rotation, cast another shield. 3 second rotation, another shield, another 3 secs, another shield. You get attacked, damaging your shield - so immediately pop your 2n'd shield.

Do you rotation again, and your frag gets reflected. You know its gonna knock you down and you need to re-shield anytime so don't want to be on your butt with no shield - so you block to avoid the knockdown - and re-shield.

So for that same duration of combat, and same amount of incoming attacks, both have done one block (nb sorcs generally have no CP's spent in block cost reduction) - but the sorc cast 6 shields - the other player cast one heal.

Shields are expensive to cast. The resource changes makes them even more expensive and recovery slower.

See, this is the advantage of reactive defences - they only cost resources when needed.


Can a sorc use shields reactively? Well, casting a shield does not instantly ani-cancel anything else you are doing like block or dodge - and the effect does not apply until right at the end of the animation - so no.
Can they take the hit and heal up afterwards? Not with light armour they can't - and especially not if using divines/infused rather than impen to get that bigger shield.

No, wards are basically the magicka equivalent of blocking when youre taking heavy burst damage. You actually do have a reactive heal and it's called Healing Ward.

Now, most magicka sorcs will get blown up if they try to use ward and annulment reactively but thats only because of gear choices they take for granted. No other class can hope to survive in 5 light (and with some pieces not impenetrable, even).

Magicka sorcs arent overpowered. Pirate Skeleton, Necropotence, Lich, Burning Spellweave, Amberplasm etc are all ridiculously strong build options that maybe shouldnt have been added to the game the way they are right now.

But hey, same can be said for other specs and sets like velidreth, selene, tremorscale, viper, draugr hulk etc etc. People are just picking on magicka sorcs because if youre fighting a magicka sorc and dont have enough burst damage the fight can genuinely feel hopeless. Not being able to dent an enemy's healthbar tends to *** people off.

The bit I bolded is, I think the basis of a lot of the shieldnerf threads. It's psychologically very different to seeing someone's health drop then come back up again.

Sharee

Biro123 wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Floki_Vilgerdarson wrote: »

As someone mentioned above, sorcs are going to have to balance resources between keeping their shields up and doing damage. They can be tanky or do burst damage, but doing both will take better resource management.

Either way the patch notes are the Nerf you are looking for.

Floki

I don't get it. If you nerf sustain across the board, how is it that only sorc is affected? I thought it was a blanket nerf?

Yeah, a lot of people don't get this.. Its not that sorcs are the only ones affected - but they are affected MORE. Here's how it goes..



Lets say your survivability comes from blocking/mitigation/healing. You're in a many vs many fight, happily run around block-casting attacks from range ithout a care in the world for maybe 10 seconds until somebody attacks you back. You block the attack - it costs you some stamina, you only take a little damage

Lets say you do a channel - and get hit while not blocking - so you've lost some more health and need to heal - so you cast a heal...

The only defensive resources you have used are the cost of one block and one heal.

Now for a sorc entering the same fight - a sorc who is being careful on resources and NOT constantly shield-stacking.
First you cast a shield, and move into range. Do your 3-second rotation, cast another shield. 3 second rotation, another shield, another 3 secs, another shield. You get attacked, damaging your shield - so immediately pop your 2n'd shield.

Do you rotation again, and your frag gets reflected. You know its gonna knock you down and you need to re-shield anytime so don't want to be on your butt with no shield - so you block to avoid the knockdown - and re-shield.

So for that same duration of combat, and same amount of incoming attacks, both have done one block (nb sorcs generally have no CP's spent in block cost reduction) - but the sorc cast 6 shields - the other player cast one heal.

Shields are expensive to cast. The resource changes makes them even more expensive and recovery slower.

See, this is the advantage of reactive defences - they only cost resources when needed.


Can a sorc use shields reactively? Well, casting a shield does not instantly ani-cancel anything else you are doing like block or dodge - and the effect does not apply until right at the end of the animation - so no.
Can they take the hit and heal up afterwards? Not with light armour they can't - and especially not if using divines/infused rather than impen to get that bigger shield.

No, wards are basically the magicka equivalent of blocking when youre taking heavy burst damage. You actually do have a reactive heal and it's called Healing Ward.

Now, most magicka sorcs will get blown up if they try to use ward and annulment reactively but thats only because of gear choices they take for granted. No other class can hope to survive in 5 light (and with some pieces not impenetrable, even).

Magicka sorcs arent overpowered. Pirate Skeleton, Necropotence, Lich, Burning Spellweave, Amberplasm etc are all ridiculously strong build options that maybe shouldnt have been added to the game the way they are right now.

But hey, same can be said for other specs and sets like velidreth, selene, tremorscale, viper, draugr hulk etc etc. People are just picking on magicka sorcs because if youre fighting a magicka sorc and dont have enough burst damage the fight can genuinely feel hopeless. Not being able to dent an enemy's healthbar tends to *** people off.

The bit I bolded is, I think the basis of a lot of the shieldnerf threads. It's psychologically very different to seeing someone's health drop then come back up again.

Its not just psychological. Low health is vulnerable to executes, low shield isn't.

tplink3r1

Make shields susceptible to critical damage

Shields don't have armor...

LordSlif

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Shields don't have armor...

Yep, but we can see here that many people dont know it

Docmandu

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Shields don't have armor...

Devil's Advocate: Neither does light armor and medium armor after sharpened and fracture debuff.. yet can still crit on those.

Entegre

Better visuals queues for opponent to time burst (example: shield is very noticeable when first applied and fades down as damage/time limit decreases)

L2P, seriously learn to apply CC on a magicka character...

BoxFoxx

Increase magicka cost for shields

jakeyura wrote: »

Actually 1, 4 and 5 not just either or... shields shouldn't be susceptible to penetration otherwise they would not be 'shields' technically, but just cool looking effects.

kuro-dono

easy mode solution to all these issues that are related to shields etc. give stun/bash opportunity whenever someone tries to cast spell or do nasty melee attack like wrecking blow. correct timing and you bash them and stun, as they were vulnerable for such an action. BASH after all costs stamina so its not like its ultimatebadass monstrous thing. it would just fix so many issues pvp has.

BoxFoxx

Increase magicka cost for shields

...also in regards to increased magicka costs, something along the lines as casting any shield ability within 6 seconds of casting a shield ability costs 50% more.

Ofcourse shield stacking is a PvP problem, so this kind of limitation could potentially cause major issues for healers and sorcs in PvE where such things are not a problem but a need.

Again, everything always seems to boil down to separating PvE and PvP mechanics... but hey lets just keep the frustration flowing, it seems to be a staple of the game, haha

LordSlif

ZOS have already decreased pirate skeleton power, let the shields in peace

Biro123

LordSlif wrote: »

ZOS have already decreased pirate skeleton power, let the shields in peace

Along with the sorcs using it for a crutch!

LordSlif

Biro123 wrote: »

LordSlif wrote: »

ZOS have already decreased pirate skeleton power, let the shields in peace

Along with the sorcs using it for a crutch!

yep lol