Dungeon Token System: WHEN?

Artis

Magdalina wrote: »

So basically, you believe that the longer people don't get the gear they want, the longer they'll play? So...if they don't EVER get the gear they want, they'll keep playing forever? You don't see some logical fallacy with that? People will only chase the carrot on the stick so long until they give up and go someplace else.

People farm gear because they want to be better at the activities they do find fun and/or want to compete in, I don't think anyone's staying in ESO to run normal coa 1 for time 476479248th time then quit if they do finally manage to get sharp bsw staff.

I believe that a LOT more people leave because of this stupid grind than stay. It's a widely recognized problem and no, it's not just a few. I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure at this point even ZOS recognizes the issue - they finally made monster heads guaranteed drops(do you remember when you had to run a dungeon 10-50 times just to get ONE head in any weight/trait?), they made every boss drop a set piece(farming spc was fun when you could go 10 runs without 1 spc piece in any trait), they enabled group-wide trading, they're talking about considering token system. They just need to hurry up with this.

That's not my belief, it's a fact. Everyone is more active and puts more effort if reward is random as opposed to consistent with the maximum at around 50% (as random as it gets). There was even a thread about it on forums. No, if they don't EVER get their gear , they won't keep playing obviously. As I said, there's an optimal point. And that point is in RNG, not in rewards being guaranteed. No I don't see logical fallacy in that, please feel free to tell me which one is it. And how it's not applied to what you're saying.

Not really, no. Compete - yes. Fun - no, they don't need gear. They are fun for them, so they just like the process. And everything in this game can be completed (and was completed) without vMA sharpened weapons. There was a build showing that charged results in about the same DPS in small scale play.

Helms are not vMA weapons. Helms are needed in PvP and are too strong to not have in PVE. But again - they aren't NEEDED for pve. And notice how they drop in random weight and trait and so we are able to find a group for pledges. And Idk where you're playing but in all my guilds and whenever I'm in capitals I see "LFM for non dlc" pledges. No one cares about helms anymore. They run for keys and shoulders. If those were guaranteed too, most people wouldn't run dungeons because "they are not rewarding". So the idea is to find balance, not just hand out the gear.

Did you not read everything about not having vertical progression, etc? The token system the way people want it DOES NOT fit this game. Crafting, IC, undaunted keys - that's your token system. Why should anyone be guaranteed BiS loot? You already can get loot that's enough to do ANYTHING out of what you think is fun and have fun. Yes you need certain gear to compete, but that's 0.1% of players and frankly it's their problem. Loosing a 100 people but saving thousands is much better than vice versa.


Don't forget the typical cycle of a scrub - they farm everything and then "why would I run anything if it's not rewarding? ZOS give me new content, I'm leaving until it's here".

Meld777 wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

You don't need any of the particular pieces. All the setups that make sense are withing few percent from each other.

I got my Sharpened Inferno after 600 runs and a year of weekly rewards. My vMA score was always capped at around 580k. After I got it, I ran it one more time just for comparison. Instantly broke 590k. You feel the difference. Two people, one without and one with vMA weapons, can't compete with each other. To say it's negligible is 100% wrong. And my 593k run didn't even feel as perfect as my 582k run.

Getting the Inferno made me quit BDO, not ESO. I am still playing it, still enjoying the content, and excited for Morrowind. And that besides the fact that my main character, Magicka Nightblade, has been complete garbage in PvE for over a year now, and that will continue in Morrowind cuz ... ZOS.

There were tons of great players that kept leaving over the last year just because of vMA RNG. And it weren't those not getting the weapon after 50 runs. It were those not getting it after 500 runs. The 10%, not the 90%. Would it've hurt the game that much to provide those 10% with a safety net and keep them in game, since the other 90% got lucky already? If ZOS didn't drive ~100 loyal and competitive players (that I know of) to BDO, Hodor wouldn't be alone on the top of the leaderboards right now. There would be actual competition going on.

Oh yeah, just in case you don't know, cuz people seem to forget, before Dark Brotherhood patch vMA weapons came only in Sharpened, Precise and Defending. Thus, weekly rewards guaranteed you good, usable weapons. Yes, imagine that. That's also where most players with Sharpened Infernos got their weapons from. Then ZOS added the *** traits.

Losing 100 self-proclaimed good players is better than losing thousands of casuals. Again - no vertical progression, no dungeon cooldowns. In a couple of months everyone will have everything and no one except for new players will need to run anything. The requirements will be inflated as well. I'd rather have a few dozens of competitive players quit the game.

Still - no one explained to me, why a few players being able to compete is worth all the negative consequences I'm describing.

sadownik

@Wifeaggro13 i really dont understand why so many people here glorify Paul Sage. Nobody played Tabula Rasa? In fact many elements of ESO that annoy me and i think many other players, seem to be copied from TR.

Meld777

Artis wrote: »

Still - no one explained to me, why a few players being able to compete is worth all the negative consequences I'm describing.

@Artis

I'll give you the explanation. The chance of not getting the desired weapon in vMA in 500 runs is 3.1%.
What it means: out of 100 players who run the arena 500 times, only 3 - 4 players will not get the weapon of their desire. My definition of rare: out of 100 players, 3 - 4 get the weapon. "3 - 4 players will not get the weapon" is more like, "Let's screw those 3 - 4 loyal players out of their drops."

With a token system where you can trade in 500 weapons for 1 desired weapon, how exactly would that be bad for the game?

Let's even take 200 runs. The chance to not get a Sharpened Inferno in 200 runs is 25%. A much more common amount of runs, even for casuals. Do you still consider it rare when 75% of people who run the arena 200 times have it? Would a token system providing free weapon choice after 200 runs really hurt the game?

Of course it's not 96.9% of the population who have the weapon. It's only 96.9% of those who ran it 500+ times. Yet, it's still rare because not everyone can complete and farm vMA 2 runs/hour. But don't you think some empathy with those 3 - 4 poor souls out of 100 people, of whom 97 already have the weapon, would be the right way to go? Not the whole population. Not the people who can't complete it. Not the people who ran it "only" 100 times. Do you really think getting the weapon of your desire after 500 runs would affect its rarity so much that everyone would have it in a month (or any other time it takes a person to run vMA 500 times)? 97 out of 100 people get it in that time already, with the current system! Why be d1cks to the 3 - 4 people that got screwed by RNG? Giving them their weapon would not change the fact that most ppl will still not even complete vMA or run it that many times.

"But then no one will have an excuse to not have it! *discrimination/lf exp DD vMA weapon only*

1. Do you run pugs/randoms? There is a huge gear variety in ESO. There are constantly people farming all kinda sets from Undaunted Unweaver to Leeching heavy armor. People play the way they want. I have yet to see a gear requirement in pugs. Yet, BSW/Necro are BiS nowadays.

2. In guilds where gear requirements apply, it doesn't matter if there is a token system or not. Personal skill and situational awareness still matter the most. As far as our raids go, we don't care what you're wearing. All we want to see is your skill, personality and DPS. If your numbers are low, we won't take you with us anymore. It's your responsibility to make it work. With or without vMA weapons/token system. And if someone thinks their reason for low DPS is lack of vMA weapon, well... sucks to be them. We don't care if people have an excuse to not have a vMA weapon. Pull required DPS or get out. If you choose not to run vMA 500 times, fine. Bring something else exceptional to pull the numbers, a unique build for example.

Phinix1

Meld777 wrote: »

With a token system where you can trade in 500 weapons for 1 desired weapon, how exactly would that be bad for the game?

It wouldn't. It would be hugely beneficial for the longevity of the game and happiness of players.

But some people are very selfish and NEED to lord something over others to enjoy having it. It is the material exclusivity and obsession with primitive competition that defines the majority of human behavior even today, which is beyond sad.

It is like the great primate "role model" Genghis Khan said: "'It is not enough to succeed; others must fail."

The worst aspect of humanity in my opinion. I think it is folly to cater to the selfish exclusive minority.

Magdalina

Artis wrote: »

Losing 100 self-proclaimed good players is better than losing thousands of casuals. Again - no vertical progression, no dungeon cooldowns. In a couple of months everyone will have everything and no one except for new players will need to run anything. The requirements will be inflated as well. I'd rather have a few dozens of competitive players quit the game.

Still - no one explained to me, why a few players being able to compete is worth all the negative consequences I'm describing.

o.O casuals don't give a damn about BiS gear. It's the competitive(and often good, yes) players that do and it's them that ZOS is driving away with the grind. And the casuals that have a competitive streak in them and decide to give it a try and...yeah no.

There's no optimal point in rng because you might as well literally never get the carrot you're chasing. You can run vMA once and get sharp inferno. Or you can run it 1000 times, all Flawless and on leaderboards and not get it, and still not be any closer to getting it. There is no sense of progression in that, and that's exactly the issue. You do not progress. You're still just as far from getting what you want as a random noob doing his first complete ever.

They need some sort of grind because obviously they can't make the content at the speed we consume it, hence the carrot on a stick. But if you want to keep people chasing it, you gotta let them catch it eventually, enjoy it, then introduce a new one(or just let them enjoy the old one for a while). At this point, the carrot is basically a lie.

Blackfyre20

There is no point in arguing with @Artis about RNG, he will fight this fight in every RNG thread until the game dies, no matter how wrong he is or how unanimous support for the opposing opinion is.

"Everyone loves grinding endlessly with no light at the end of the tunnel! They run dungeons, trials, and VMA hundreds of times because they like it" - @Artis
"No we don't, we'd rather light ourselves on fire then run COA again" - everyone
"See, RNG is great!" - @Artis

Artis

Meld777 wrote: »

@Artis

I'll give you the explanation..

Oh I see, you just don't really understand how probabilities work and what "rare" would mean in this context. Yes, at some point more and more people get it. Kinda like if you throw a coin, the more you throw it - the closer you are to getting, say, tails. But each throw still has a 50-50 chance. And in the big scale - still about half of your attempts will fail. And that's the thing. Weapons are rare because still only X% attempts will grant them.

Now, the number of runs of vMA people do is distributed randomly. People who get to the point where there's only 3% or 25% or whatever of not getting the weapon are in top X percentile. Most people don't run arena so much regardless of whether they get a weapon or not. Thus the rarity is maintained.

ONCE you introduce the number of runs required to get weapons, people will simply run that number of runs sooner or later. People who are screwed by RNG can run it a few more times.

Now regarding your points:
1)yes I do. There's no gear requirement. There's "performance" requirement. If it feels that a dungeon is slower than with other groups - you get kicked. And as you said - people are farming gear. If they already got their gear through tokens or whatever - then would they run those dungeons? Explain, why do you think nobody runs some dungeons anymore?

2) Nope. It's like you don't even understand how your requirements are set. Or at least not in the majority of guilds. Again, the number is chosen such that a guild can have enough members to fill their raids and clear the content. However, it depends on the DPS of others and is in a way "elitist". Guilds just want certain top percentile. Example - after Homestead the difficulty of trials didn't change. However, the DPS requirements changed and guilds started requiring more DPS, even though they already cleared it with lower requirements pre-homestead.

Also oh ok, so vMA weapons aren't needed to pull numbers you want and the skill is more important? Great, then no one should want a specific item and it shouldn't be guaranteed.

All your rant is based on a premise that everyone should get anything they want and fast. But first you need to defend that statement, before going to the next step and talking about how some people are "screwed by RNG".

Magdalina wrote: »

o.O casuals don't give a damn about BiS gear. It's the competitive(and often good, yes) players that do and it's them that ZOS is driving away with the grind. And the casuals that have a competitive streak in them and decide to give it a try and...yeah no.

There's no optimal point in rng because you might as well literally never get the carrot you're chasing. You can run vMA once and get sharp inferno. Or you can run it 1000 times, all Flawless and on leaderboards and not get it, and still not be any closer to getting it. There is no sense of progression in that, and that's exactly the issue. You do not progress. You're still just as far from getting what you want as a random noob doing his first complete ever.

They need some sort of grind because obviously they can't make the content at the speed we consume it, hence the carrot on a stick. But if you want to keep people chasing it, you gotta let them catch it eventually, enjoy it, then introduce a new one(or just let them enjoy the old one for a while). At this point, the carrot is basically a lie.

Great, then there's no reason to change anything, if the majority is happy and plays more.

Yes there is. There is a study showing it. And no, there's progression in that, because you have somewhere to grow. YOu have some gear that you could want. There is no progression if you have everything. Again - many people leave or start whining that stuff "is not rewarding". ZOS has to keep them busy.

Yes and? So why would they just hand out the gear then? It will be worse for the game. They need to keep people busy. And they also want new players to have players to play with. It's an MMO, you aren't playing it in vacuum.

And again - look at dungeons taht aren't "rewarding" anymore. No one runs them. Do you know why I even check forums right now? I've been looking for people to run VCOS pledge with. I wasted TWO HOURS of my time trying to form a group. And it's Sunday, there are people online, since it's a day off. I just regret that people could farm whatever they wanted there so fast, that now I can't play it reliably. I need to either put even more time into looking for people or wait until I get lucky and someone else is looking for 1 more. Last time it was a pledge I looked for it for more than 24 hours. The day it was the pledge and then the next day as a "chapter run" and wanted to do the pledge for me.. Nope, had to drop it.

I honestly don't understand why you want that to be happening on a bigger scale and with more content.

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

There is no point in arguing with @Artis about RNG, he will fight this fight in every RNG thread until the game dies, no matter how wrong he is or how unanimous support for the opposing opinion is.

"Everyone loves grinding endlessly with no light at the end of the tunnel! They run dungeons, trials, and VMA hundreds of times because they like it" - @Artis
"No we don't, we'd rather light ourselves on fire then run COA again" - everyone
"See, RNG is great!" - @Artis

I will fight only if I'm right. If I was wrong, I wouldn't say anything. Stop looking at the loot system selfishly. I know exactly why YOU would like to have what you want. How would that be better for the game? Whenever there's a thread approaching this subject from that point of view - we can talk. So far all these threads are whiny babies asking for stuff for themselves.

Phinix1

The idea of rarity in a video game environment is an illusion. These are virtual items created by the devs on a whim. They are neither rare nor plentiful, because they do not actually exist, nor is there any fixed quantity of them.

The only way we can describe something's "rarity" in a virtual environment is how long it takes to get it and how difficult it is to do so. But there is the problem. ZOS relies too heavily on RNG, so there IS no fixed time to acquire, nor is skill or difficulty factored into the equation, thus rarity is truly meaningless.

For example, a highly skilled player can reach the top 10 on the leaderboards for weeks or months running vMA and NEVER get the item they wanted. Then someone can derp through without even registering on the leaderboard and get lucky on their first chest.

Someone can run HM content for MONTHS and never get the item they wanted. Then someone can pay for 1 carry and get it their first time through, NO SKILL REQUIRED. That is the biggest problem with a pure RNG system. People are not rewarded for skill.

Let me ask this: Why is rarity in a virtual world so important?

I have never understood why is it so important to people that others NOT have something in order to enjoy what one has, especially in a pure RNG system which rewards repetition rather than actual skill. Help me to understand!

Wifeaggro13

sadownik wrote: »

@Wifeaggro13 i really dont understand why so many people here glorify Paul Sage. Nobody played Tabula Rasa? In fact many elements of ESO that annoy me and i think many other players, seem to be copied from TR.

i dont glorify him but he was the one that pushed the MMO part of this particular game. he has a lot of experience. Is he as talented at MMO design and directing as someone like Scott Hartsman? no. But Matt definitely did not want to make an MMO with ESO he wanted an online RPG. and well that's what you got here is an online RPG where 99% of the content is solo player easy mode. Matt has taken the game to a place of no community no longevity. The game is a constant churn population and the Game systems never expand or enrich just recycle

MLGProPlayer

AnotherOxyt wrote: »

"WHEN?"
Never.
If you want to have bis equipment you need to deserve it. Patience (dungeon sets, overland sets) and skill (epic and legendary jewelry from vTrials, MSA weapons). Try or chose something weaker.
Close thread.

Some people have completed vMA 1000+ times and still don't have a sharpened vMA staff.

Other people got one on their first clear.

Tell me more about how the player with 1000+ clears hasn't done enough to "deserve" the drop.

Artis

Phinix1 wrote: »

The idea of rarity in a video game environment is an illusion. These are virtual items created by the devs on a whim. They are neither rare nor plentiful, because they do not actually exist, nor is there any fixed quantity of them.

The only way we can describe something's "rarity" in a virtual environment is how long it takes to get it and how difficult it is to do so. But there is the problem. ZOS relies too heavily on RNG, so there IS no fixed time to acquire, nor is skill or difficulty factored into the equation, thus rarity is truly meaningless.

For example, a highly skilled player can reach the top 10 on the leaderboards for weeks or months running vMA and NEVER get the item they wanted. Then someone can derp through without even registering on the leaderboard and get lucky on their first chest.

Someone can run HM content for MONTHS and never get the item they wanted. Then someone can pay for 1 carry and get it their first time through, NO SKILL REQUIRED. That is the biggest problem with a pure RNG system. People are not rewarded for skill.

Let me ask this: Why is rarity in a virtual world so important?

I have never understood why is it so important to people that others NOT have something in order to enjoy what one has, especially in a pure RNG system which rewards repetition rather than actual skill. Help me to understand!

Because MMO RPGs are about character progression including the gear progression. That what you said, that there is no fixed time to acquire is NOT a bad thing at all.

Things being rare and not guaranteed let newer players who just joined the game find groups for content easier and with more experienced players which in turn improves their experience. Things being rare means there are items players would like to get. This game is not like wow, we don't have vertical progression, we don't have dungeon cooldowns we don't get huge addons with all new dungeons and raids.

I don't see how your example proves your point and why it's bad that a player will never get the item they want. There are other items they can get. And stop your tantrums. yes people are rewarded for skill. Skill = they can complete faster so they roll for loot more often.

Or maybe you want gear locked behind MMR ranking or something, so that most players don't even have a shot at getting cool gear? Yeah, go ahead -see how ESO's player base reacts to that.

And you help me understand why everyone is entitled to everything and should be guaranteed to get anything they want?

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

AnotherOxyt wrote: »

"WHEN?"
Never.
If you want to have bis equipment you need to deserve it. Patience (dungeon sets, overland sets) and skill (epic and legendary jewelry from vTrials, MSA weapons). Try or chose something weaker.
Close thread.

Some people have completed vMA 1000+ times and still don't have a sharpened vMA staff.

Other people got one on their first clear.

Tell me more about how the player with 1000+ clears hasn't done enough to "deserve" the drop.

He was talking about a necessary requirement, not sufficient. Necessary and sufficient are 2 different things.

MLGProPlayer

Kodrac wrote: »

You do realize a token system won't magically reduce the grind right? It's systematic grind vs a random grind. Token systems are even more of a grind usually because they impart one token grind into another token grind. Run dungeon 100 times to get get one token. get 100 tokens get a ring, get 200 tokens get chest piece, etc. Hell no.

Random might be frustrating but I'd take it over a systemic kick in the nuts every time I log in. Some people see a token system as light at the end of the tunnel, but I see it as depressing knowing exactly how much time I'm going to have to waste to get that one shiny.

The current odds of getting the vMA weapon you want are something like 1/100.

A system that requires you to collect 100 tokens for a vMA weapon is preferential to relying on 1/100 odds any day. It guarantees you will get the drop after 100 completions (assuming one token is granted per completion, which would be reasonable and logical). RNG doesn't guarantee anything. There are players with over 1000 vMA completions under their belt and still no sharpened inferno staff.

Phinix1

@Artis you sound like a person who maybe got lucky on a roll and now likes telling others to "stop throwing tantrums" when they disagree with your views. You might as well tell people "git gud," which is funny because getting lucky on a random drop requires NO SKILL and has NOTHING to do with how "gud" one is.

The problem with this system is that people that DO have skill can run the content for months and make NO PROGRESS. That is a terrible design no matter how you spin it.

Shadow_Viper_vX

Much more important for them to focus on fixing much more important things like the performance/lag problems that were introduced into the game long long ago with the anti-bot measures(measures which no longer seem to be working, yet we still have the lag/performance problems).

https://youtu.be/IzFS4RKA5uc?t=659

This video explains it perfectly more in depth(much better than I can/could), important stuff starts around 12 minutes.

Need to keep spreading the word to get these performance issues addressed!!

Artis

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

You do realize a token system won't magically reduce the grind right? It's systematic grind vs a random grind. Token systems are even more of a grind usually because they impart one token grind into another token grind. Run dungeon 100 times to get get one token. get 100 tokens get a ring, get 200 tokens get chest piece, etc. Hell no.

Random might be frustrating but I'd take it over a systemic kick in the nuts every time I log in. Some people see a token system as light at the end of the tunnel, but I see it as depressing knowing exactly how much time I'm going to have to waste to get that one shiny.

The current odds of getting the vMA weapon you want are something like 1/100.

A system that requires you to collect 100 tokens for a vMA weapon is preferential to relying on 1/100 odds any day. It guarantees you will get the drop after 100 completions (assuming one token is granted per completion, which would be reasonable and logical). RNG doesn't guarantee anything. There are players with over 1000 vMA completions under their belt and still no sharpened inferno staff.

WHY should RNG or guarantee anything? Why should anything be guaranteed at all?

@Phinix1 they do progress, it's just slow. They would do no progress if they already got everything. I'm telling you to stop tantrums because of your style of writing. All that caps lock and whining.

Get good is not related to weapons, it was already mentioned many times here, that skill etc is more important than vma weapons, so not sure why you bring it up.

You still didnt' help me understand, why it's good for everyone to have everything. While you're at it, explain to me why I can't find a group for a "non rewarding" but fun and difficult dungeon. People don't farm to then use it to have fun and run content. They run because they just climb to the top while they can. I mean, look at all those newbies grinding skyreach. Most players don't care about playing the content, they care about rewards and getting everything. Once the get there - the game is over for them. Just remember all that whine of 2014.

And you say it yourself or what else is this supposed to mean?

Phinix1 wrote: »

The problem with this system is that people that DO have skill can run the content for months and make NO PROGRESS.

Progress where? Where is a person running vmol progressing? So you're saying they aren't playing contenting because they like playing it and are having fun? Then why are they playing? To get rewards and make progress. So dont' be surprised zos doesn't want it to end for the majority of people. Vote with your time, show them that you are playing everything and keep playing regardless of the loot. But no, statistically, that's not what happens.

Phinix1

Artis wrote: »

@Phinix1 they do progress, it's just slow. They would do no progress if they already got everything. I'm telling you to stop tantrums because of your style of writing. All that caps lock and whining.

This is where you are wrong. RNG with no time cap means someone could run the content until the servers shut down and NEVER get the item they were after, meaning they could NEVER progress.

If you don't get it I'm sorry but I can't help you, and I don't really care to continue trying. Also if you ASSUME that everyone who disagrees with you or uses caps or bolds for highlighting key points is "whining" I am not sure why anyone would.

Artis

Phinix1 wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

@Phinix1 they do progress, it's just slow. They would do no progress if they already got everything. I'm telling you to stop tantrums because of your style of writing. All that caps lock and whining.

This is where you are wrong. RNG with no time cap means someone could run the content until the servers shut down and NEVER get the item they were after, meaning they could NEVER progress.

If you don't get it I'm sorry but I can't help you, and I don't really care to continue trying. Also if you ASSUME that everyone who disagrees with you or uses caps or bolds for highlighting key points is "whining" I am not sure why anyone would.

The probability of that is negligibly small. The probability that they will progress is much higher. However, after they get everything - that's when they for sure NEVER progress.

No, bolds are ok. Your caps in that messaged looked precisely like whining, which is what it was anyway. I get everything. You dont' get how it will work out on a bigger scale, you only think about your gear and yourself. I would benefit from tokens as much as everyone else in terms of getting gear, but not in what really matters. And I am already feeling it. it's already way more difficult to find group, because lots of people play only for rewards and as long as they are getting their gratification.

But there's no point, you can't even address the whole comment and answer all questions. You are just asking for gear because you are so entitled. Good luck. Maybe ZOS will listen. I'm here to show possible consequences and see if someone can change my mind and show that maybe I don't see something. They will read and decide what direction they want to take. If you want to change their mind, you'd need to prove that handing out gear will save more people than is lost due to RNG. So far, studies and all show that you are probably wrong. RNG is way more addictive.

MLGProPlayer

Phinix1 wrote: »

@Artis you sound like a person who maybe got lucky on a roll and now likes telling others to "stop throwing tantrums" when they disagree with your views. You might as well tell people "git gud," which is funny because getting lucky on a random drop requires NO SKILL and has NOTHING to do with how "gud" one is.

The problem with this system is that people that DO have skill can run the content for months and make NO PROGRESS. That is a terrible design no matter how you spin it.

This is why debating RNG mechanics is so frustrating.

The lucky players will always claim there is nothing wrong with the system.

MLGProPlayer

Artis wrote: »

WHY should RNG or guarantee anything? Why should anything be guaranteed at all?

For a game to be competitive, everyone needs to have access to the same gear.

Get good is not related to weapons, it was already mentioned many times here, that skill etc is more important than vma weapons, so not sure why you bring it up.

Let's assume the following scenario:

- Player A and player B are equally skilled
- Player A has a sharpened vMA staff
- Player B does not have a sharpened vMA staff
- Player A will ALWAYS do more damage than player B
- Player A will score higher on leader boards and perform better in PvP encounters

LadyLavina

probably the day before the servers shut down

Artis

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

WHY should RNG or guarantee anything? Why should anything be guaranteed at all?

For a game to be competitive, everyone needs to have access to the same gear.

Get good is not related to weapons, it was already mentioned many times here, that skill etc is more important than vma weapons, so not sure why you bring it up.

Let's assume the following scenario:

- Player A and player B are equally skilled
- Player A has a sharpened vMA staff
- Player B does not have a sharpened vMA staff
- Player A will ALWAYS do more damage than player B
- Player A will score higher on leader boards and perform better in PvP encounters

Why does a game need to be competitive? Or what do you mean by "competitive"? That's an MMO RPG, not MOBA. It's not about pure competition. And it shouldn't be designed for the top 1% who are competing. It should be designed for the majority of players and to keep most players happy and the game alive, i.e. there are people to play with and there are people to run any content with, while you can still have fun. And you can have fun, the current loot system is not vertical progression. All sets are reasonably close to each other.

Ok your scenario is flawed. First of all, the assumption of players "equally skilled" is too far fetched. That is such a rare occurrence that it can be neglected. I would even say that no two people in the whole game are equally skilled. And again, I'll remind, the game shouldn't be designed for outliers if it hurts the experience of others. Secondly, for A to always do more damage than B he needs to have the same or better ping and fps, which can have much higher impact on DPS than having vMA staff over another staff, say, 5 pc moondancer. Also, all this will not matter in morrowind anyway, because people will have to build sustain, so who knows how that plays out.

Last but not least, player A will NOT always score higher AND do better in PVP. It's different types of content requiring different skill. PvP in particular will depend on environment as well + help of others. In turn, PvE leaderboard scores will depend on player A's and B's TEAMS. Unless you are talking about solo leaderboard (only vma) , where they can also depend on RNG.

Which once again brings me.... Explain, why the game should be designed for top few % of players over being designed for the majority of players.

Nyrielle

Yes, rng can suck but I loathe grinding for tokens. At least I can see and admire the reward my fellow group mates get, even if I get nothing. Tokens are unimaginative and take all the surprise out of farming for drops/upgrades. For the love of the gods, give me a good old fashioned loot table.

Artis

Nyrielle wrote: »

Yes, rng can suck but I loathe grinding for tokens. At least I can see and admire the reward my fellow group mates get, even if I get nothing. Tokens are unimaginative and take all the surprise out of farming for drops/upgrades. For the love of the gods, give me a good old fashioned loot table.

Good point.

And technically you do have a loot table with looots of "options". But seriously, ZOS, please consider removing useless traits from the endgame loot or revamping all traits and making them all useful or giving us an option to reduce the pools of loot (like drawing from different chests at least).

Honestly, I don't think the game should reward us with garbage. RNG is ok, but the current state can be improved.

Ulfgarde

Phinix1 wrote: »

@Artis you sound like a person who maybe got lucky on a roll and now likes telling others to "stop throwing tantrums" when they disagree with your views. You might as well tell people "git gud," which is funny because getting lucky on a random drop requires NO SKILL and has NOTHING to do with how "gud" one is.

The problem with this system is that people that DO have skill can run the content for months and make NO PROGRESS. That is a terrible design no matter how you spin it.

Funny thing is he's making nicely formed arguments against the idea while you complain and attack his character off baseless claims. There's a funny thing in debates called ad hominem, which you seem to have pulled off quite well against a decent argument.

Now, onto the idea that tokens should be implemented? Should they? Yea, sure. Should they give you exactly what you want? By all means no. Sure, the chances can be significantly higher in this case; for instance, maybe you may open a box that has specifically Destruction Staff Maelstrom weapons as purchasable with tokens, but not directly earned.

This would be a more balanced system: to reduce the chances of getting useless crap and instead make it much easier to get what you need. Remove the useless traits like Training, Prosperous, Charged, etc. from weapons that don't need it. Get rid of crap like Spinner's Dagger in sharpened and Spriggan's Ice Staff and ensure that the chances are "even enough" and not giving out free things like candy.

Loot tables are what give players a lot less choices for slots but also give them an easier means of receiving gear. This would also be a good alternative to combat the randomness of RNG, yet it would also limit the internal philosophy of the game: the freedom to play and equip what you want (arguably a philosophy that has been changing since launch that SHOULD NOT be this closely followed). Give ESOHead a reason to stand for such a reason as loot tables, not just pure RNG crap that has no place in even the most remote build.

Aeladiir

never

Phinix1

Aeladiir wrote: »

never

This was so constructive you had to post it in every thread I see.

Tasear

Someday

Nyladreas

Phinix1 wrote: »

I wouldn't go so far as to say lack of separate balance for PVE and PVP will keep me from buying Morrowind, or even subbing, though this current patch proposal is WAY over the top and far too much at once to balance smoothly, which will just lead to unnecessarily protracted frustrations.

But what WILL continue to kill this game for more and more people is the current pure-RNG system for BoP gear drops in dungeons and trials, where you get a random drop, with a random trait, and no guarantee of EVER getting the piece you want.

It is the biggest cause of people's extreme resistance to otherwise adaptable changes. The fear of "having to do that grind all over" if the gear cap ever goes up, where even if they get the drop they want, they never really win, because they know one little change and it is back to never-ending randomness AGAIN.

That is a TERRIBLE design that leads people to give up. It is demoralizing, depressing, and if they honestly think it makes people run the content MORE, they need to have a very close look at the use data and do a professional sit-down with whoever is still pushing that notion.

Being able to trade items with the group was a good start but it wasn't enough to quell the real problem which is the PERCEPTION OF ATTAINABILITY. Random is still random.

A simple token system, where you earn currency for the current dungeon, and have enough to buy 1 piece of any BoP set that drops in that dungeon with the trait of your choosing after say 5 runs, would give people a cap on the "time to acquisition" that WOULD keep them POSITIVE and RUNNING CONTENT, both of which I believe are your goals as well and what is best for the life of the game.

That is the solution I have proposed for the better part of 2 years now.

This is having the opposite effect as intended, ZOS. Ask Deltia what the biggest burnout for him was. The patch notes was just the nail in the coffin from what I gather.

Why are you still fighting us on this? We ALL want the game to succeed. Just say it was something you were planning all along. It may even be true!

@ZOS_GinaBruno

@Phinix1

While I agree that something like this would be great, I wouldn't exactly go as far as you as that just seems too EZ.

I'd actually be more than perfectly fine if you had a way, any kind of way, to switch traits on gear and weapons. Items drop frequently enough it's just the traits that suck.

Reforging through very rare materials gathered in the world using crafting. I would also tie this into a quest. (or anywhere really)

Or just dungeons badges (Lookup old WoTLK WoW duneons and raid badges) that could be used to switch the trait.

Even multiple different dungeons that would be "connected" lets say.... You would need an item X for Armour, Y for Weapons, Z for Jewelry (if we ever see the day of Jewelcrafting).

To get item X you would need to run dungeon A, B, C, D, E, F (Possibly 3 dungeons I + II for each) and gather fragments from bosses (or anything really). Then once you have a fragment for each boss from a dungeon you will generate token A. By combining token A B C D E and F you would get the Item X and change the trait of the weapon making the process much easier while still somewhat difficult and therefore rewarding.

Not to mention this would fit into the game very very well and could potentially even create additional lore if tied with quests or something.

(Please note that I purposely kept this tedious as ESO seems to be headed in that direction, however personally I'd be more than happily open to something even easier. It could be anything, it could even only be 2 dungeons and different token for different armour slot. Hell I don't care as long as it's MUCH less than the current braindead grind.)

Jamascus

Kodrac wrote: »

You do realize a token system won't magically reduce the grind right? It's systematic grind vs a random grind. Token systems are even more of a grind usually because they impart one token grind into another token grind. Run dungeon 100 times to get get one token. get 100 tokens get a ring, get 200 tokens get chest piece, etc. Hell no.

Random might be frustrating but I'd take it over a systemic kick in the nuts every time I log in. Some people see a token system as light at the end of the tunnel, but I see it as depressing knowing exactly how much time I'm going to have to waste to get that one shiny.

Token systems can work fine if they don't implement the horrid amount of tokens you used as an example per piece. For example. A 5 piece set could be broken down like this. Chest- 3 maj al ragath tokens, 5 chief urglarg tokens, 4 glirion the ginger tokens. Or Have major pieces cost 3 elden hollow, 4 city of ash, 5 cradle of shadows. That way you still have to earn the tokens, because some people think video game achievements matter and you know exactly what it's going to take to get a set. The idea is to make you have to spend some time earning them but not soul crushing amounts and never get what you want. Then you have the set to use for the content you want to use it for, pvp, pve, rp, whatever. Rinse and repeat for each toon and you have a sustainable subscription model.

GaldorP

My post ended up being a bit whiny so read at your own risk

I think there's quite a difference between ESO's endgame RNG loot mechanics and the endgame RNG loot mechanics found in "traditional" MMOGs.

I've played Korean grinder MMOGs where some specific items have a drop chance of less than 1/50,000 from specific monsters, games with eternal grinds that have overenchant systems where chances to go past a certain + value can be ridiculously low (and even cause you to lose enchant levels you already had if you fail an enchant).

Yet somehow, I find those RNG mechanics less frustrating than having a chance of about 1/300 to get the item I want after completing a difficult solo instance that took me next to an hour to complete (or much longer on my first few attempts) while I do get an item, every time, that is partially the correct type (it's a Maelstrom Weapon with a Maelstrom Enchant and may even be the type of weapon I want, for example a bow or a one-handed sword), but the trait makes it useless to me as a main bar weapon. So it's another run of a difficult and exhausting 1-hour solo instance to get another chance of 1/300... A player who's unlucky may never get what they need, even after 1000 runs with no chance to buy it from other players either.

RNG mechanics in veteran dungeons and trials are also frustrating. Let's say I want a Jailbreaker Jack with Well-fitted. I need to kill one of the main bosses in BC (but not the final one) for a chance to get either a helmet, a chest, a shoulder, or a leg armor of any of 3 possible sets. So that's 1/12 chance to get the jack from the Jailbreaker set. The chance to get the trait I want is 8 times lower (1/96). With bad luck this could takes hundreds of runs...
If I have a group (though the chances to find one in the group finder are next to zero or lead to very long waiting times depending on the dungeon and the role I want to play) then yes, at least, I can trade with 3 other players in group dungeons.
But then again... the situation is 10 times worse if I want a weapon or a jewelry piece which only drop from the final boss and there's more than 10 weapon types + jewelry that share the same loot table and purple jewelry can only be obtained from the final boss in vet mode ><.

In short, I would LOVE to have a token system for endgame loot or to be able to trade all dropped gear with all other players in ESO ^^

Edit: I forgot to mention that Veteran Maelstrom Arena runs make a player lose gold and potions! This also plays a part in why the RNG mechanics are so frustrating. You lose with every run unless you get the one item you need (which is like a 1/300 chance as I mentioned before).

Edit2: I had to edit the drop chances on the Jailbreaker Jack. Chances to get one were actually lower than I had originally indicated ^^