Dungeon Token System: WHEN?

Magdalina

Kodrac wrote: »

You do realize a token system won't magically reduce the grind right? It's systematic grind vs a random grind. Token systems are even more of a grind usually because they impart one token grind into another token grind. Run dungeon 100 times to get get one token. get 100 tokens get a ring, get 200 tokens get chest piece, etc. Hell no.

Random might be frustrating but I'd take it over a systemic kick in the nuts every time I log in. Some people see a token system as light at the end of the tunnel, but I see it as depressing knowing exactly how much time I'm going to have to waste to get that one shiny.

Why not both? Something like, if you get (for example), an MA weapon you don't need, you can trade it in for 1 MA token(MA tokens can't be farmed in Wayrest obviously). Let's say 100 tokens needed. Then if after 100 runs RNG gods still hate you dearly and keep giving you charged daggers for your magicka build, you can trade them all for tokens and finally get your MA sharpened inferno, as opposed to running it 300 times and being in no way closer to getting it at all. Now if rng gods do love you, you can still get sharpened inferno the very first run like me and never bother with tokens whatsoever.

QUEZ420

I'd imagine a patch or 2 at most after Morrowind. Stay calm.

DRXHarbinger

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

They spelled 'transferable' wrong

Did you know that Albert Einstein was known to be notoriously poor at spelling, both in English and his native German? I guess that disproves all his scientific theories and discoveries then....

looks let's agree to disagree shall we, I'm glad you were open minded enough to read the articles i linked even if you don't accept their conclusions

Possibly because at 13 years of age he was stateless and then moved to Switzerland which has a slightly different dialect as does Germany in some states (Bavaria for instance) and Switzerland also is part french and Italian so he was always bound to struggle on that part.

Reasons for everything there.

Reasons for zos not sorting rng and upsetting everyone with it? Probably nothing logical whatsoever.

zaria

Magdalina wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

You do realize a token system won't magically reduce the grind right? It's systematic grind vs a random grind. Token systems are even more of a grind usually because they impart one token grind into another token grind. Run dungeon 100 times to get get one token. get 100 tokens get a ring, get 200 tokens get chest piece, etc. Hell no.

Random might be frustrating but I'd take it over a systemic kick in the nuts every time I log in. Some people see a token system as light at the end of the tunnel, but I see it as depressing knowing exactly how much time I'm going to have to waste to get that one shiny.

Why not both? Something like, if you get (for example), an MA weapon you don't need, you can trade it in for 1 MA token(MA tokens can't be farmed in Wayrest obviously). Let's say 100 tokens needed. Then if after 100 runs RNG gods still hate you dearly and keep giving you charged daggers for your magicka build, you can trade them all for tokens and finally get your MA sharpened inferno, as opposed to running it 300 times and being in no way closer to getting it at all. Now if rng gods do love you, you can still get sharpened inferno the very first run like me and never bother with tokens whatsoever.

This, i would expect an combination, you get most gear from drops then use tokens to fill the gap or reduce bad luck.
Other option would be smart drops, chance of getting the same items many times decreases.
Rings is an exception

kongkim

Do not like Token systems. do hope NEVER.

alexkdd99

Kodrac wrote: »

You do realize a token system won't magically reduce the grind right? It's systematic grind vs a random grind. Token systems are even more of a grind usually because they impart one token grind into another token grind. Run dungeon 100 times to get get one token. get 100 tokens get a ring, get 200 tokens get chest piece, etc. Hell no.

Random might be frustrating but I'd take it over a systemic kick in the nuts every time I log in. Some people see a token system as light at the end of the tunnel, but I see it as depressing knowing exactly how much time I'm going to have to waste to get that one shiny.

I think people are advocating a token system in addition to the current rng, more so a safety net. So the current system of rng would still be in effect but with an added safety net.

So you would still get the same drops throughout the dungeon but at the end you would receive a token. So if you got your item then great, but if you didn't then you know you can run it x amount of times to obtain said item. If along the way to earning your tokens you get your item then great, this is the part of the system that would still be in effect. But if you didn't get your item then you would receive a token.

As it stands currently someone could run the same piece of content an infinite amount times and NEVER receive their desired item. That should never happen.

It is not possible for the grind to be lengthened by the addition of a token system. Not a replacement of the current rng system for a token system, but in addition to the current system.

Currently, we have rng.
We want rng + token.

Not just a token, not just rng, but both.

R1DD1CK

ESO is Dying .

kargen27

"Currently, we have rng.
We want rng + token."

You want the dart throw at the county fair! Throw darts at balloons, pop a balloon you get a prize. Most prizes suck but one of those balloons is hiding the big teddy bear. To keep you throwing darts they tell you hey if you get four more of those mustache combs you can trade them in for this whistle. It takes just five whistles to get the novelty sunglasses or you could get lucky and pop the balloon that has the sunglasses prize hidden behind it. Sure the sunglasses are cheap but they are better than five whistles and of course five pairs will get you the small stuffed turtle...

As an aside many studies have shown people react more to fanfare than an actual prize. One study had two types of slot machines. The first had no lights or sounds when you won but paid out more often and with bigger jackpots. The other had all kinds of lights and noises and even if you won a small jackpot the lights would blink bells would ring and all kinds of fun was had. The blinking machines were by far the most popular. Profitable games on phones and tablets thrive on this behavior. Maybe what this game needs is a fireworks show after you finish maelstrom? Or maybe not, part of the appeal of the lights and bells was the interaction of the people around you when you won. Just a part though...so maybe fireworks.

Pallio

RNG is ok, as long as the pool is not massive like vMA currently, be nice if you could choose a chest - Wood / Steel chests etc. Like they did with the pledge keys, those pools remained to large, but, the idea could work.

wolfdoggie_ESO

Each Dungeon should have their own Tokens for buying/crafting the drops. Similar to Guild Wars 2, which released with that feature. Don't be rude though please by cluttering inventory with them. They already have a wallet system there to store it (and crafting storage) for everyone, no sub required. The inventory space issue already killed off my friends who joined with me so more clutter is an issue.

Magdalina

AnotherOxyt wrote: »

"WHEN?"
Never.
If you want to have bis equipment you need to deserve it. Patience (dungeon sets, overland sets) and skill (epic and legendary jewelry from vTrials, MSA weapons). Try or chose something weaker.
Close thread.

@AnotherOxyt

I got sharpened inferno vMA staff the first time I completed vMA. Which altogether probably took months, I left it on last arena forever, then eventually came back and spent like a whole day trying to finish it and fully expecting a training bow or something for it, I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw sharp inferno. I have friends who have Flawless on several characters and have run the place literally HUNDREDS of times for this very weapon yet they don't have it. How am I more deserving than them? Which skill was it that made my months' long complete(on magsorc too. I just don't really find it fun, honestly, but got bored and thought I might as well finish it) more skillful than their <hour Flawless runs(on all the classes pretty much) that are on the weekly all the time?

No one's asking to get stuff for free, on the contrary, people are asking to have a guarantee that their skill will actually be rewarded eventually.

Kodrac

kargen27 wrote: »

You want the dart throw at the county fair! Throw darts at balloons, pop a balloon you get a prize. Most prizes suck but one of those balloons is hiding the big teddy bear. To keep you throwing darts they tell you hey if you get four more of those mustache combs you can trade them in for this whistle. It takes just five whistles to get the novelty sunglasses or you could get lucky and pop the balloon that has the sunglasses prize hidden behind it. Sure the sunglasses are cheap but they are better than five whistles and of course five pairs will get you the small stuffed turtle...

Much better illustration of the point I was trying to make.

Zvorgin

I only run crafted and overland sets because rng is brutal. The dungeons may be fun at first but not for as many times as you have to run them to get gear. Making BoP gear screwed the game and also the in game economy. I would love for BoE to return to dungeon sets.

Alaztor91

The current system doesn't rewards you for your skill, time, effort, knowledge, etc of the content. It's pure luck.

You could have a person that gets the best score in vMA or any other content where loot is BoP and he will probably get an useless item with an useless trait at the end.

You can also have a new player that is doing that same content for the first time ever, he struggles and it took him a long time but he eventually cleared it, and while there is the same chance that he will get crap like the other guy, he could also get lucky and get his BiS item on that first clear.

With the amount of combinations between weapon types, armor weights, traits, etc, getting exactly what you want becomes a really low % , and although you can repeat the content over and over there is no guarantee that you will ever get that one item that you are looking for.

People just want to be rewarded for their time spent on doing that content, they want to have the security that if RNG is not with them, they will atleast have that one item after X amount of successful runs.

I really don't get the mentality that ZoS seems to have that by adding layers upon layers of RNG on itemization they can artificially increase the content replayability, on me atleast it has the opossite effect, when I figured that the chance to get that specific shoulder piece from the undaunted chest was like 1 in 284, I stopped doing the content.

Token system, trait reforge, anything that helps to remove some of the layers of RNG in itemization is IMO needed for this game.

Artis

Phinix1 wrote: »

I wouldn't go so far as to say lack of separate balance for PVE and PVP will keep me from buying Morrowind, or even subbing, though this current patch proposal is WAY over the top and far too much at once to balance smoothly, which will just lead to unnecessarily protracted frustrations.

But what WILL continue to kill this game for more and more people is the current pure-RNG system for BoP gear drops in dungeons and trials, where you get a random drop, with a random trait, and no guarantee of EVER getting the piece you want.

1. Suffering arises from attachment to desires
2. Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases

You don't need any of the particular pieces. All the setups that make sense are withing few percent from each other. People who don't understand it and don't enjoy the game for what it is have much deeper issues and won't magically become happy if they have all gear handed to them.

Phinix1 wrote: »

That is a TERRIBLE design that leads people to give up. It is demoralizing, depressing, and if they honestly think it makes people run the content MORE, they need to have a very close look at the use data and do a professional sit-down with whoever is still pushing that notion.

Being able to trade items with the group was a good start but it wasn't enough to quell the real problem which is the PERCEPTION OF ATTAINABILITY. Random is still random.

Repeat after me.

1. Suffering arises from attachment to desires
2. Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases

Phinix1 wrote: »

A simple token system, where you earn currency for the current dungeon, and have enough to buy 1 piece of any BoP set that drops in that dungeon with the trait of your choosing after say 5 runs, would give people a cap on the "time to acquisition" that WOULD keep them POSITIVE and RUNNING CONTENT, both of which I believe are your goals as well and what is best for the life of the game.

That is the solution I have proposed for the better part of 2 years now.

This is having the opposite effect as intended, ZOS. Ask Deltia what the biggest burnout for him was. The patch notes was just the nail in the coffin from what I gather.

Why are you still fighting us on this? We ALL want the game to succeed. Just say it was something you were planning all along. It may even be true!

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Now THAT is a terrible idea and would be a terrible design. Not having any rare meaningful items? Not having any progression when you can get everything in a month? THis is the game where dungeons have no cooldowns, I'll remind you. And they are trying to keep all the content relevant as opposed to the vertical progression and adding new tiers of dungeons and trials.

Not to mention that all the new players will be FORCED to farm everything, the requirements will inflate as well.
On the other hand, a lot of players will find it difficult to find a group for some dungeons, because no one will need anything from them anymore because they already got those things after X runs.

Magdalina wrote: »

That analogy is rather flawed though. A casino profits from a person not winning, because if they do win, the casino gets to pay real money to them. For ZOS, it would not cost a cent to give every single person in the game a sharp fire vMA staff(I'm not saying they should do that, would be a bad idea but still), they profit from people staying in the game and spending money on the game. The question is, when are people more likely to stay with the game and feel content with the game enough to spend more money on it, when they run same content that they're long bored of for literally hundreds of hours instead of doing something they enjoy, or when they actualloy have a reasonable chance of doing what they enjoy in the near future?

It'd be a bad idea to have absolutely guaranteed drops because it'd destroy the sense of achievement, but at the same time hundreds and hundreds of runs and getting na da after them is not fun either, it makes a lot people quit, even that guy-who-shall-not-be-named that everyone's so freaking out about now. Token system sounds like a reasonable alternative where something would still take relatively long to obtain if rng gods don't favor you, but at the very least you'll know that after <x> time, you WILL get what you're after. They can make it a very long time too, people will still take it and praise them at this point because current system gives them a chance to literally NEVER get what they're after.

This is where you are wrong. It does cost them money. Apparently, people leave when there's nothing left to do. A lot of MMO players play for the progression.

Magdalina wrote: »

Personally, I've been farming SotH dungeons a great lot lately, it's become my favourite activity in the game. I do actually enjoy them, they're fun and mechanics are interesting, and I like that there's still a challenge to them even with a good team, but you know why else I run them? Motifs. 100% drop in vet hm. Not only I've learnt them all myself but I'm making very nice profit selling them. Best part? I don't have to pray to rng gods anymore, I know that if me and my team are good enough, we WILL get a motif chapter and it's great. And it hasn't dropped the economy either because even with guaranteed drops the content is hard enough that the supply is still much lower than the demand and chest chapters go for up to 90k(pc na). I feel that was a really great adition and really awesome idea - the guaranteed drop is locked behind content difficulty, but it is there, there IS a way to get 100% drop, even if it's not easy and might take a while too. It's not a token system but it's along the same lines of having a guaranteed way to acquire something eventually.

Yeah I would like to farm them too, but you know what? It's close to impossible to find a group among my friends and guilds. They got everything they wanted from there, so they don't need to and won't go there.


And don't bring up WOW. WOW's token system didn't give you best-in-slot gear. WoW's system was to give you catchup gear so you can skip outdated progression and start doing the current content (say, in TBC you can buy T6-level gear and skip Karazhan. And you must mean "badges", tokens there are just to balance the raid setup) + there were tier tokens, but their goal was even more different from what you're asking for. You just want stuff to be guaranteed and handed to you eventually.

No, no best-in-slot gear should be granted for any tokens or badges. The catchup gear? yes sure. But we don't need it in ESO, because you can craft/buy perfectly decent gear that will let you perform in all end-game content and have just enough DPS,healing or survivability to start progressing.

Aliyavana

AnotherOxyt wrote: »

"WHEN?"
Never.
If you want to have bis equipment you need to deserve it. Patience (dungeon sets, overland sets) and skill (epic and legendary jewelry from vTrials, MSA weapons). Try or chose something weaker.
Close thread.

Cause rng requires skill...

Magdalina

Artis wrote: »

Now THAT is a terrible idea and would be a terrible design. Not having any rare meaningful items? Not having any progression when you can get everything in a month? THis is the game where dungeons have no cooldowns, I'll remind you. And they are trying to keep all the content relevant as opposed to the vertical progression and adding new tiers of dungeons and trials.

Not to mention that all the new players will be FORCED to farm everything, the requirements will inflate as well.
On the other hand, a lot of players will find it difficult to find a group for some dungeons, because no one will need anything from them anymore because they already got those things after X runs.

Idk, placing, say, a desired MA weapon at 100 runs' worth of tokens doesn't seem to make it much less rare than it is now, it simply guarantees you WILL eventually get your MA weapon at all.

For dungeons, farming for armor is fairly easy already, farming for weapons is complete nuts. 100 runs for enough tokens for a weapon of choice as well? There're only so many times you can run the very same content til you give up and move on, whether or not you have gotten what you wanted.

This is where you are wrong. It does cost them money. Apparently, people leave when there's nothing left to do. A lot of MMO players play for the progression.

It does not cost them money to give people digital stuff. It does cost them money when people leave yes. But how many people have already left and will yet leave because of the rng grind? Is this seriously the best way to keep us playing, run normal coa 1 for time 353799053 in hopes of maybe finally getting sharp bsw staff? Where exactly is the sense of progression in that?

Yeah I would like to farm them too, but you know what? It's close to impossible to find a group among my friends and guilds. They got everything they wanted from there, so they don't need to and won't go there.

40-90k gold guaranteed for what is a 30 minutes run with a good team. I'll run these with you any day if you're pc na and know the places

I've never played WoW so I have no idea about anything there. All I know is that the current system in ESO, or parts of it at least, are very discouraging to play. Even ZOS seems to understand them, between making monster heads/set pieces guaranteed drop and allowing group wide trade at least.

Artis

Magdalina wrote: »

Idk, placing, say, a desired MA weapon at 100 runs' worth of tokens doesn't seem to make it much less rare than it is now, it simply guarantees you WILL eventually get your MA weapon at all.

For dungeons, farming for armor is fairly easy already, farming for weapons is complete nuts. 100 runs for enough tokens for a weapon of choice as well? There're only so many times you can run the very same content til you give up and move on, whether or not you have gotten what you wanted.

Sure, you don't know. I do. It will make it much less rare. This game doesn't have dungeon cooldowns like WoW. 100 runs = in a month or two everyone who wanted vMA weapons will have them.

If you move on before you have gotten it - perfect, then the design worked and the item is rare, because not everyone who wants it gets it.

Now why do you think that everyone should have everything they want guaranteed? Some gear shoudl be rare. There are TONS of weapons that aren't rare. People can use them. And some people will get vMA weapons. Cool, so we won't have everyone wearing the exact same gear.

Magdalina wrote: »

It does not cost them money to give people digital stuff. It does cost them money when people leave yes. But how many people have already left and will yet leave because of the rng grind? Is this seriously the best way to keep us playing, run normal coa 1 for time 353799053 in hopes of maybe finally getting sharp bsw staff? Where exactly is the sense of progression in that?

Read before commenting. it does cost them money because they will lose players. No one cares about a couple dozens of crybabies when this system keeps thousands of players who would've left otherwise.

The of progression is that you still have reasons to run that content and that you character can still get better gear. Now where is the sense of progression when everyone got all the gear they wanted? How would it affect teh game? See the previous comment to find out.

You don't care about the game, you just want the weapons for yourself. Those are not respectable motives to push your idea. I would benefit from having all the weapons I want too in the sense that I would have them. WOuld I like the game where no one plays anything anymore, though? No, I wouldn't.

Magdalina wrote: »

40-90k gold guaranteed for what is a 30 minutes run with a good team. I'll run these with you any day if you're pc na and know the places

I've never played WoW so I have no idea about anything there. All I know is that the current system in ESO, or parts of it at least, are very discouraging to play. Even ZOS seems to understand them, between making monster heads/set pieces guaranteed drop and allowing group wide trade at least.

Yes, finding the good team is not easy though. Those players are either grouped already or only care about trials.

And regarding the last paragraph, I'll repeat:

1. Suffering arises from attachment to desires
2. Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases

It's much more discouraging to play when you reach the level where no one wants to run anything. Or no one wants to run what you want to run.

KingYogi415

When people in hell get ice water!

Epicasballs

My own experience with RNG has been terrible. I used to love PvPing and doing trials with friends even though I didn't need loot from either of those activities.... it was just fun. Then VMA came along and I wanted BiS weapons. In 400+ runs since my first VMA clear I'm still hunting for any sharpened 2h and an inferno staff sharpened... the only 2 things I want to make my trials toon and PvP toon beast... the grind has become so tiresome all I do now is run VMA for weekly leaderboard scores and occasionally heal when I see that certain people are on. I nearly never PvP anymore. My trials DPS is a magblade so we're already at the bottom of the DPS pile and not having the inferno staff is upsetting because there is no reason to take me over a barely geared magsorc becuase they're just better in every way right now. Not being able to obtain these items has killed much of my love for ESO and honestly I've been looking for an excuse to give it up... if my younger brother stops playing so will I... because RNG. I can handle nerfs but something needs to be done about RNG.

Phinix1

This is the sort of feedback ZOS needs to hear, which is why it was so important that even Deltia indicated the primary reason he lost interest in the game over the last year and eventually quit was the terrible over-reliance on RNG with no system to put a cap on the amount of time you have to throw at it to make progress.

Skill-based progress is great. RNG is even acceptable if there is an eventual time cap. But when you just throw together a random trait on random drop system with no cap on time required, people will sometimes go literally YEARS without making progress despite running the content. That is a BAD DESIGN and causing people to leave this game from burnout.

It is so important for ZOS to hear this because there are literally one or two guys at the company who this is their baby. They refuse to see reason or engage the community on this issue, and ZOS needs to know that their billion dollar franchise is losing millions in subscriber dollars literally because of the stubbornness and pride of these two guys.

They need to sit down and have a serious discussion about why they continue to allow these two guys with their misguided delusions about what keeps people running content to drive decisions that are having the opposite effect, and driving people (and profits) away from this game.

Not to mention creating a resentful and hostile climate as burnout gradually makes the game more and more tedious, frustrating, and disappointing, and that shows in people's behavior to each other.

Magdalina

Artis wrote: »

If you move on before you have gotten it - perfect, then the design worked and the item is rare, because not everyone who wants it gets it.

Read before commenting. it does cost them money because they will lose players. No one cares about a couple dozens of crybabies when this system keeps thousands of players who would've left otherwise.

The of progression is that you still have reasons to run that content and that you character can still get better gear. Now where is the sense of progression when everyone got all the gear they wanted? How would it affect teh game? See the previous comment to find out.

You don't care about the game, you just want the weapons for yourself. Those are not respectable motives to push your idea. I would benefit from having all the weapons I want too in the sense that I would have them. WOuld I like the game where no one plays anything anymore, though? No, I wouldn't.

You didn't even read my first post, did you? I've gotten my vMA Sharp Inferno staff my very first run and I wasn't even really looking for it(though I am magicka and I will use it). I personally now couldn't give a damn about MA tokens. I wish I could give it to my friends who have spent countless number of hours there yet still don't have it besides being on leaderboards every week. They deserve it more.

If people moved on from the game because they couldn't find gear they wanted(as many have and many will yet) to do the stuff they find fun after MONTHS of farming, then I really don't think the system is working as intended. There's no progress in running same content thousands of times and STILL being no closer to what you wanted. It doesn't reward skill nor even time, it rewards blind luck and is extremely discouraging.

Also Idk about your grouping issues but personally my #1 grouping problem is I can't find people to run fun stuff with because they're too busy running normal CoA 1 for 146786433th time for their sharp fire staff, or Blackheart for the pirate set. It's turning game into a job where people refuse to do stuff that's fun because they "need" to do boring stuff they hate, except there's only x% chance of them ever getting their salary.

StefanPro

I would see a token system more as a back up...if u run it 100 times and u don't get for example ur msa fire staff, like me :-)
u can use ur 100 token to get it, so u have at least some reward in the end,
if u get it before, lucky u and the grind can stop

but I agree with u...sometime the grind feels like hard work, instead of fun playing the game

Artis

Magdalina wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

If you move on before you have gotten it - perfect, then the design worked and the item is rare, because not everyone who wants it gets it.

Read before commenting. it does cost them money because they will lose players. No one cares about a couple dozens of crybabies when this system keeps thousands of players who would've left otherwise.

The of progression is that you still have reasons to run that content and that you character can still get better gear. Now where is the sense of progression when everyone got all the gear they wanted? How would it affect teh game? See the previous comment to find out.

You don't care about the game, you just want the weapons for yourself. Those are not respectable motives to push your idea. I would benefit from having all the weapons I want too in the sense that I would have them. WOuld I like the game where no one plays anything anymore, though? No, I wouldn't.

You didn't even read my first post, did you? I've gotten my vMA Sharp Inferno staff my very first run and I wasn't even really looking for it(though I am magicka and I will use it). I personally now couldn't give a damn about MA tokens. I wish I could give it to my friends who have spent countless number of hours there yet still don't have it besides being on leaderboards every week. They deserve it more.

If people moved on from the game because they couldn't find gear they wanted(as many have and many will yet) to do the stuff they find fun after MONTHS of farming, then I really don't think the system is working as intended. There's no progress in running same content thousands of times and STILL being no closer to what you wanted. It doesn't reward skill nor even time, it rewards blind luck and is extremely discouraging.

Also Idk about your grouping issues but personally my #1 grouping problem is I can't find people to run fun stuff with because they're too busy running normal CoA 1 for 146786433th time for their sharp fire staff, or Blackheart for the pirate set. It's turning game into a job where people refuse to do stuff that's fun because they "need" to do boring stuff they hate, except there's only x% chance of them ever getting their salary.

It's an abstract you. You people want weapons for yourself and whoever else you want to have them - your friends etc. Awww a few people left? Even more would leave if everyone had vMA weapons. There's no progress if you reached the highest point. Not what you said. What you described is just slow progress. There's progress in skill if someone runs vma many times. And they should only run it if it's fun, and then some of them maybe will get weapons and it will be a nice reward. That's how it is with rare items. And yes, it rewards skill - the better you are the faster you complete => you roll the dice more often.

There is no reason for them to farm that weapon if vma is not fun for them. They don't need it for anything. See? Someone even said that a person at the top of the leaderboard uses different weapons. There is also no reason to guarantee BiS gear. None whatsoever. It will only lead to sad consequences. If BiS gear is guaranteed, then the group/raid requirements will inflate, people will have no excuse not to have BiS gear and not to pull corresponding numbers. The content will have to be rebalanced with that in mind too.

They are busy running something? Sure. Everyone chooses what they want to run. They "need" to do boring stuff? Not at all. They choose to do it. They can do fun stuff without doing boring stuff. Or mix them up. But they definitely don't need it. What's the point? The only explanation for the majority of players is that they don't care about the process - they care about getting gear. And then what? They quit the game because there's nothing else for them to do. Don't you remember 2014? We had the same trials but gear dropped in certain traits and it was easier to farm. People would get their gear and stop running trials, because why would they continue? They already got what they want. The only exception - people who competed, but that's 0.1% of population maybe. Don't you think there is a reason the loot system changed? Apparently data showed zos that they keep more players than lose. And it's in the game's interest to have people playing it, not to give gear to everyone.

Most people will not run content if they don't need anything there. Either rewards or they compete. Again - remember DLC dungeons before the motifs were added. People stopped running them. I'm STILL working on 100 DLC pledges achievement. And now - again - people got their chapters and rarely run. Or take vet DSA. ZOS scaled it so it's more fun. But only top raiders run it, competing for their good scores. And they have their semi-static groups already. I don't even remember when was the last time I saw people recruiting for vet dsa. Whereas before it became out-dated (when they increased VR cap) people would recruit for it ALL THE TIME, even though master weapons dropped in random traits. But there was a chance to get a good weapon and jewelry and gold jewelry for the weekly, so people would run. Once it stopped giving rewards - it's not ran by as many people. And one would think - if it's fun, why wouldn't people run it?

Token system for entry-level gear? Sure thing, I support that idea. We have it already, though. It's called crafting. Tokens are crafting materials. But for best gear? This game has no dungeon cooldowns. The gear can be shared between characters. All content is scaled and there's no item level or anything like that like in wow. So there's no vertical progression, there are no tiers of content. What it means is that in a month or few everyone will have the best setup (according to them). There will be NO MORE gear they need. That's it. => no demand on crafting mats and upgrade mats. And no reason for most people to run anything! They will run things "for fun" for a little bit and then most of them will lose interest, because there will be no progression. And that IS an example of when there's no progression, not what you described. It happened in every MMO and there are articles about it.

StefanPro wrote: »

I would see a token system more as a back up...if u run it 100 times and u don't get for example ur msa fire staff, like me :-)
u can use ur 100 token to get it, so u have at least some reward in the end,
if u get it before, lucky u and the grind can stop

but I agree with u...sometime the grind feels like hard work, instead of fun playing the game

You do get some reward in the end. You just look a gift horse in the mouth and turn your nose up. The idea is to run content for fun. You do get some reward or a chance to get a reward, but you don't count on it.

Rianai

So you want to tell me, that many people leave the game because they got their BiS gear? Doesn't make sense. Why would they grind for gear if they don't plan to use it afterwards. If they leave then maybe because they got "burned-out" by the grind, no?

I will never understand, why some people like grinding in games. I play games for fun and nothing else. Doing the same content over and over and over is usually not fun, and if it would be fun i would do it anyways When i started playing ESO just recently i wasn't aware of the rng/drop system, otherwise i probably wouldn't have brought the game. So far i'm having fun, but i definitely won't do any excessive grinding ever, so i'm quite limited when it comes to gear choices. For now i can't tell wether this limitation will hurt my game experience, but if it starts doing so, i won't stay. And i'm surely not the only one.

Games without (required) gear grinding exist and don't neccessarily die after a short time because of the lack of progression. Sure, some players might leave for this reason, but then again, players leave (or don't start playing at all) because of grinding too.

wolfxspice

i can only speak for myself, i'v run coa1 to many times to count, and vma around 400 times, its lonely in vma, and kinda depressing, im not very good at it, it usually takes me about hour, i dont care about score or time i just want it over. iv been staying away from it lately and i have only run vma once in the past month, and even thinking about coa makes me want to gag, i know people who have run it 900+ times get leader board scores every week, and never even seen a fire staff, and i know people who have run it a hand full of times and get everything they want and never go back. a few of my friends left back when it was still new, they said they left because they didn't feel any progression in their.
people dont want to remove the rng, its a important part of the game. me and a lot of other people just want their to be some kind of bad luck protection something in place to prevent the possibility that you might never get the thing you want, because that can happen, thats how rng works. i will still run from time to time, its not gonna be a make or break for me. sorry about the grammar and stuff, im about to pass out, and just wanted to put my thoughts out their.

Magdalina

Artis wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

If you move on before you have gotten it - perfect, then the design worked and the item is rare, because not everyone who wants it gets it.

Read before commenting. it does cost them money because they will lose players. No one cares about a couple dozens of crybabies when this system keeps thousands of players who would've left otherwise.

The of progression is that you still have reasons to run that content and that you character can still get better gear. Now where is the sense of progression when everyone got all the gear they wanted? How would it affect teh game? See the previous comment to find out.

You don't care about the game, you just want the weapons for yourself. Those are not respectable motives to push your idea. I would benefit from having all the weapons I want too in the sense that I would have them. WOuld I like the game where no one plays anything anymore, though? No, I wouldn't.

You didn't even read my first post, did you? I've gotten my vMA Sharp Inferno staff my very first run and I wasn't even really looking for it(though I am magicka and I will use it). I personally now couldn't give a damn about MA tokens. I wish I could give it to my friends who have spent countless number of hours there yet still don't have it besides being on leaderboards every week. They deserve it more.

If people moved on from the game because they couldn't find gear they wanted(as many have and many will yet) to do the stuff they find fun after MONTHS of farming, then I really don't think the system is working as intended. There's no progress in running same content thousands of times and STILL being no closer to what you wanted. It doesn't reward skill nor even time, it rewards blind luck and is extremely discouraging.

Also Idk about your grouping issues but personally my #1 grouping problem is I can't find people to run fun stuff with because they're too busy running normal CoA 1 for 146786433th time for their sharp fire staff, or Blackheart for the pirate set. It's turning game into a job where people refuse to do stuff that's fun because they "need" to do boring stuff they hate, except there's only x% chance of them ever getting their salary.

It's an abstract you. You people want weapons for yourself and whoever else you want to have them - your friends etc. Awww a few people left? Even more would leave if everyone had vMA weapons. There's no progress if you reached the highest point.

So basically, you believe that the longer people don't get the gear they want, the longer they'll play? So...if they don't EVER get the gear they want, they'll keep playing forever? You don't see some logical fallacy with that? People will only chase the carrot on the stick so long until they give up and go someplace else.

People farm gear because they want to be better at the activities they do find fun and/or want to compete in, I don't think anyone's staying in ESO to run normal coa 1 for time 476479248th time then quit if they do finally manage to get sharp bsw staff.

I believe that a LOT more people leave because of this stupid grind than stay. It's a widely recognized problem and no, it's not just a few. I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure at this point even ZOS recognizes the issue - they finally made monster heads guaranteed drops(do you remember when you had to run a dungeon 10-50 times just to get ONE head in any weight/trait?), they made every boss drop a set piece(farming spc was fun when you could go 10 runs without 1 spc piece in any trait), they enabled group-wide trading, they're talking about considering token system. They just need to hurry up with this.

Meld777

Artis wrote: »

You don't need any of the particular pieces. All the setups that make sense are withing few percent from each other.

I got my Sharpened Inferno after 600 runs and a year of weekly rewards. My vMA score was always capped at around 580k. After I got it, I ran it one more time just for comparison. Instantly broke 590k. You feel the difference. Two people, one without and one with vMA weapons, can't compete with each other. To say it's negligible is 100% wrong. And my 593k run didn't even feel as perfect as my 582k run.

Getting the Inferno made me quit BDO, not ESO. I am still playing it, still enjoying the content, and excited for Morrowind. And that besides the fact that my main character, Magicka Nightblade, has been complete garbage in PvE for over a year now, and that will continue in Morrowind cuz ... ZOS.

There were tons of great players that kept leaving over the last year just because of vMA RNG. And it weren't those not getting the weapon after 50 runs. It were those not getting it after 500 runs. The 10%, not the 90%. Would it've hurt the game that much to provide those 10% with a safety net and keep them in game, since the other 90% got lucky already? If ZOS didn't drive ~100 loyal and competitive players (that I know of) to BDO, Hodor wouldn't be alone on the top of the leaderboards right now. There would be actual competition going on.

Oh yeah, just in case you don't know, cuz people seem to forget, before Dark Brotherhood patch vMA weapons came only in Sharpened, Precise and Defending. Thus, weekly rewards guaranteed you good, usable weapons. Yes, imagine that. That's also where most players with Sharpened Infernos got their weapons from. Then ZOS added the *** traits.

Kiralyn2000

The extra layer of RNG added by traits (did my piece drop, did it drop in my set, did it drop in my trait, etc) is what makes it worse than other MMO RNG systems I've seen.

Not sure if anyone mentioned the idea yet, but one token system that would still include the "work for it/RNG" aspect could be: Each token that drops has a set/trait. But you can then pick the item form.

Example: "Weapon, Maelstrom, Sharpened" - you select inferno staff.

"Cloth Armor, BSW, Reinforced" - pick the location; OR
"Shoulder Armor, BSW, Reinforced" - pick the weight
Whichever makes more sense....

Just a thought, not perfect. Still keeps the RNG/have to farm aspect, but strips off one layer of RNG.

Wifeaggro13

Phinix1 wrote: »

I wouldn't go so far as to say lack of separate balance for PVE and PVP will keep me from buying Morrowind, or even subbing, though this current patch proposal is WAY over the top and far too much at once to balance smoothly, which will just lead to unnecessarily protracted frustrations.

But what WILL continue to kill this game for more and more people is the current pure-RNG system for BoP gear drops in dungeons and trials, where you get a random drop, with a random trait, and no guarantee of EVER getting the piece you want.

It is the biggest cause of people's extreme resistance to otherwise adaptable changes. The fear of "having to do that grind all over" if the gear cap ever goes up, where even if they get the drop they want, they never really win, because they know one little change and it is back to never-ending randomness AGAIN.

That is a TERRIBLE design that leads people to give up. It is demoralizing, depressing, and if they honestly think it makes people run the content MORE, they need to have a very close look at the use data and do a professional sit-down with whoever is still pushing that notion.

Being able to trade items with the group was a good start but it wasn't enough to quell the real problem which is the PERCEPTION OF ATTAINABILITY. Random is still random.

A simple token system, where you earn currency for the current dungeon, and have enough to buy 1 piece of any BoP set that drops in that dungeon with the trait of your choosing after say 5 runs, would give people a cap on the "time to acquisition" that WOULD keep them POSITIVE and RUNNING CONTENT, both of which I believe are your goals as well and what is best for the life of the game.

That is the solution I have proposed for the better part of 2 years now.

This is having the opposite effect as intended, ZOS. Ask Deltia what the biggest burnout for him was. The patch notes was just the nail in the coffin from what I gather.

Why are you still fighting us on this? We ALL want the game to succeed. Just say it was something you were planning all along. It may even be true!

@ZOS_GinaBruno

We are all forced to play the game Matt wants to make, not a MMO with longevity have been playing the game since closed beta phase 1. the game took a drastic change around the time paul sage left.