The devs should really watch this entire video, its spot on whats wrong with the game at the moment.

maxjapank

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

@Minalan As far as I'm concerned, Wrobel was right about everything he said on that thread and we were all wrong.
Dark Exchange worked out pretty sweet, some even say OP.
Surge is amazing.
Hurricane is amazing, a lot of people say that its a little too good.
Negate is great.

I also remember that Feng made a video on that thread and he too was wrong. Who cares? Its happened to all of us.
Bottom line is that ZOS know what they are doing better than all of us.

Thank you for saying this. I also remember many players going nuts about Breath of Life's secondary heal being nerfed from two people to one. And also going crazy about the Magicka regen from Channeled Focus only lasting 8 secs after leaving the Focus. Or our bonus 30% heals being nerfed to the 25% of Major Mending. It was the end of Templar's only viable role.

But no one seemed to realize the benefits we were getting in return. The fact that we didn't need players to be in our Cleansing Ritual or Focus to get the bonus heals. Only we had to be in it. And we still got the Major Mending buff for 4 secs after leaving them, too. It became so much easier for us to provide +25% heals to everyone at all times.

There were other notable changes, too. Good things for Templars. But no one could see past the BoL nerf and Magicka regen of Focus.

I see people crying about stuff all the time, and yes, sometimes even I think some things could be tweaked a bit. But I don't think ZOS is just doing stuff blindly. I think there is much more being discussed than we give them credit for.

Wollust

I still think ZoS is doing all this to finish off Cyrodiil, so that they won't have to bother with it at all in the future
I mean, PvP population is quite obviously on an all time low (PC EU), but we're not getting anything besides silence from ZoS. A company that would care wouldn't operate like this.

GreenSoup2HoT

Wollust wrote: »

I still think ZoS is doing all this to finish off Cyrodiil, so that they won't have to bother with it at all in the future
I mean, PvP population is quite obviously on an all time low (PC EU), but we're not getting anything besides silence from ZoS. A company that would care wouldn't operate like this.

The thing is, a lot of people enjoy pvp. There are tons of new players coming and a lot of them pvp. Good pvp will retain these players and that means more crowns being spent.

Adernath

My vision of PvP in this game would be:

1) Compared to the current state, everything should be toned down; no proc sets, less effects and other things to improve performance and reduce lag, together with an overhaul of the existing engine for example the removal of collision checks between npc's and players etc.

2) There should be clear end-game gear and stats etc. which is reachable in a decent amount of time also for the causal player. Behind that point, no further improvement of your character stat-wise should happen and the rest should come from your skill only. I am willing to work for my gear a decent amount of time, but I have no incentive to farm my *** off to be competitive. Of course this includes a review of the current cp system.

3) Large class and skills overwork and rebalancing in close cooperation with the community together with an increase of the 5-button tab maybe to 10 buttons in order to increase diversity. This rebalancing should include a stealth overview and ends with a balance between gap closers and get-away mechanics.

4) Open the entire world for pvp (why? because it is immersive and a lot fun, even if it can happen that you get ganked): introduce contested areas, remove access to other factions home regions for those who participate in the alliance war, flag them as being killable etc.

5) Introduce battle grounds and small scale Arena-like PvP: This is introduced in form of a PvP questgiver- say lorewise an escort has to be done or an ambush to another factions outpost or just to fight in some arena. Then after accepting the quest, the player/group is ported towards a separate area and face a different team.

If these points are worked on, we may have a decent game in a couple of years ...

Myrcy

CosmicSoul wrote: »

I did not watch the entire video but are people forgetting that eso is meant to be more of a pve game then pvp? Balance will be more around pvp unless they seperate the skills on pvp grounds like they did in wow which can be costly.

I'm curious as to who said it was meant to be more pve than pvp?

Also, it is the norm for skills to sometimes behave differently (by design) in pve and pvp. It is that way in every mmo I have ever played.

Izaki

Minalan wrote: »

The only thing I disagree on is that every ultimate should be

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

jarydf wrote: »

Wrobel and Fengrush are on the same side. Both want the game to be fun for people playing pvp. But this is a hard thing to achieve. It is always easier to be the guy complaining than the guys that actually have to fix it and both of them know it.

When you have problems that you don't know how to deal with what do you do? You ask around. I'm sure that if ZOS was co-operating with the community then stuff will be much better. 41 minute video to touch on the problems in PvP. That just tells you that something is really wrong. I support ZOS and I know they work hard, but I also know that they can be more effective and do better.

Fengrush has so much more common sense than Wrobel it isn't funny. It doesn't take a genius to take a look at tremor scale and viper and say 'this is ridiculous, fix it'. He called it out a long time ago. Even made a video. They didn't listen.

As for 'asking around' they do that every update, it's called the PTS forums. Again, we told them that these things were broken and over the top. Nothing changed. I don't know how we can be any more obvious. Last patch there were a thousand malubeth threads, a bunch of people even renamed their characters 'nerf malubeth already' and some were crowned emperor. I don't know how much more *** obvious we can be and they still don't listen.

In the end, some fool at ZOS thought that they knew better than the rest of us, and they put these sets in and made these changed regardless.

Anyone remember Wrobel's "Sorc Change" thread? These changes are all conscious choices, not a series of accidents. Stop giving ZOS more credit than they deserve when they do a terrible job.

@Minalan As far as I'm concerned, Wrobel was right about everything he said on that thread and we were all wrong.
Dark Exchange worked out pretty sweet, some even say OP.
Surge is amazing.
Hurricane is amazing, a lot of people say that its a little too good.
Negate is great.

I also remember that Feng made a video on that thread and he too was wrong. Who cares? Its happened to all of us.
Bottom line is that ZOS know what they are doing better than all of us.

Most of the stuff that was going on in the PTS forums was about Destro ultimate being crap and the 2H ultimate being OP. Not many threads were talking proc sets, especially Tremorscale. Which is why we have our current state of PvP. So its not only their fault, it is also our fault for not making them aware of the problem when it first occurred.

You gotta give credit where credit is due.


Just to clear this up, I'm not defending ZOS, I'm saying that they can do better and it has already happened before. Now lets just hope that next patch will fix all this mess.

Are you saying that sorcs were perfectly fine during Dark Brotherhood and Hist? I've gotta sort of disagree there. It sucked for sorcs, and Wrobel's post was a laughingstock.

The changes for 1T have really helped us some. Lich jewelry that doesn't cost 2.5 million. Spinner set. Witch brew. Unblockable curse. The new max magicka monster damage sets. Let's not even get into the Ultimates.

I wouldn't say we're 'totally balanced' now, but the balance patch (13) only needs a few quality of life tweaks instead of an entire book of fixes. Take a look at light armor. Fix the toggle skills like they did with mage light. Reduce the cost on destro skills by 20% like every single Stamina weapon line. Take a look at sorc passives and compare them to nightblades and templars, make a couple of small changes here and there.

No no I never said that. But it wasn't sorcs who were nerfed per se. It was the whole stamina meta suddenly taking over that was too strong for all magicka builds to handle. But the changes that Wrobel did to sorcs were definitely very good. Do you think that with 20 second shields and with the old surge, sorcs would have been fine in DB and SotH? I highly doubt it. Even the shield change wasn't so bad after all, I mean we ended up getting used to it right? I think that in that particular thread, ZOS was right and we were wrong. So as much as we laughed, he was right about Dark Exchange, about Hurricane, about Negate and about Surge. I don't know if he was right about the shields though, part of me wants to say that its great to have a 20 second shield in PvE, the other part of me thinks that even if shields lasted 20 seconds, in PvP they would be ripped into nothing. Before I started stacking magicka, I was using a normal sorc build with only around 40k magicka and I think that shields would never last 20 seconds in 1T. After all we were kinda unbeatable with 20k+ worth of uncrittable shields with 100% uptime. Surge is a very decent self heal with enough points into Quick Recovery and I think that Wrobel was trying to do precisely that: force us out of shield stacking and into other play styles, making healing actually important. Not a great way to do it for sure, too abrupt and too fast. He didn't really succeed for PvP as the class became too hard to play for many people, so a few buffs to other aspects of the class are definitely welcome. But look, what ended up buffing us in 1T is the sets and the huge variety of builds that opened up.

Minalan

20 second shields were bad. Everyone agrees. But is 8 seconds really too long? Realistically we get 5 second of shields unless you cut short every single animation, and we don't have the sustain to keep them up for long without a set to do that as well.

Jaronking

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

I still think ZoS is doing all this to finish off Cyrodiil, so that they won't have to bother with it at all in the future
I mean, PvP population is quite obviously on an all time low (PC EU), but we're not getting anything besides silence from ZoS. A company that would care wouldn't operate like this.

The thing is, a lot of people enjoy pvp. There are tons of new players coming and a lot of them pvp. Good pvp will retain these players and that means more crowns being spent.

Yes @GreenSoup2HoT this on consoles you have to remember PC isn't like Console's.PC players have had to deal with everything we have even longer.Their population isn't recovering like consoles did for a bit.Even Xbox am PS4 for even longer been bleeding PvP players.You have to remember we know longer have the good PvP we all feel in love with when Xbox and PS first get this game.They won't want to stay to play a buggy mess.

Dredlord

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

ZOS clearly have no idea what to do in PvP so all they need to do is to speak to a few prominent members of the community on ways to improve it.

Get people to put their names forward, the PvP forum community then votes for members of the group to represent them.

Anytime i have seen zos listen to the prominent members, the result has been worse than what they come up with on their own.

Wreuntzylla

Adernath wrote: »

My vision of PvP in this game would be:

1) Compared to the current state, everything should be toned down; no proc sets, less effects and other things to improve performance and reduce lag, together with an overhaul of the existing engine for example the removal of collision checks between npc's and players etc.

2) There should be clear end-game gear and stats etc. which is reachable in a decent amount of time also for the causal player. Behind that point, no further improvement of your character stat-wise should happen and the rest should come from your skill only. I am willing to work for my gear a decent amount of time, but I have no incentive to farm my *** off to be competitive. Of course this includes a review of the current cp system.

3) Large class and skills overwork and rebalancing in close cooperation with the community together with an increase of the 5-button tab maybe to 10 buttons in order to increase diversity. This rebalancing should include a stealth overview and ends with a balance between gap closers and get-away mechanics.

4) Open the entire world for pvp (why? because it is immersive and a lot fun, even if it can happen that you get ganked): introduce contested areas, remove access to other factions home regions for those who participate in the alliance war, flag them as being killable etc.

5) Introduce battle grounds and small scale Arena-like PvP: This is introduced in form of a PvP questgiver- say lorewise an escort has to be done or an ambush to another factions outpost or just to fight in some arena. Then after accepting the quest, the player/group is ported towards a separate area and face a different team.

If these points are worked on, we may have a decent game in a couple of years ...

Battlegrounds!

Paraflex

Balance in any game takes time and is hard to achieve. (Apparently several years in ESOs case)

Zos takes the approach of 3-5 months to make an adjustment. I hate to say it but they are taking a slow and painful approach for balance.

I hope they start giving PvP some attention or they will soon be losing a large customer base due to lack of content,bugs,unbalanced classes,and lag.

I'm not asking for 100% balance but approaching balance by using monthly adjustments may be an easy solution so by the end of next year we're close to a patch that has balance.....

@Wrobel

Just give us a hint if it's even on the radar

Derra

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

jarydf wrote: »

Wrobel and Fengrush are on the same side. Both want the game to be fun for people playing pvp. But this is a hard thing to achieve. It is always easier to be the guy complaining than the guys that actually have to fix it and both of them know it.

When you have problems that you don't know how to deal with what do you do? You ask around. I'm sure that if ZOS was co-operating with the community then stuff will be much better. 41 minute video to touch on the problems in PvP. That just tells you that something is really wrong. I support ZOS and I know they work hard, but I also know that they can be more effective and do better.

Fengrush has so much more common sense than Wrobel it isn't funny. It doesn't take a genius to take a look at tremor scale and viper and say 'this is ridiculous, fix it'. He called it out a long time ago. Even made a video. They didn't listen.

As for 'asking around' they do that every update, it's called the PTS forums. Again, we told them that these things were broken and over the top. Nothing changed. I don't know how we can be any more obvious. Last patch there were a thousand malubeth threads, a bunch of people even renamed their characters 'nerf malubeth already' and some were crowned emperor. I don't know how much more *** obvious we can be and they still don't listen.

In the end, some fool at ZOS thought that they knew better than the rest of us, and they put these sets in and made these changed regardless.

Anyone remember Wrobel's "Sorc Change" thread? These changes are all conscious choices, not a series of accidents. Stop giving ZOS more credit than they deserve when they do a terrible job.

@Minalan As far as I'm concerned, Wrobel was right about everything he said on that thread and we were all wrong.
Dark Exchange worked out pretty sweet, some even say OP.
Surge is amazing.
Hurricane is amazing, a lot of people say that its a little too good.
Negate is great.

Most of the stuff that was going on in the PTS forums was about Destro ultimate being crap and the 2H ultimate being OP. Not many threads were talking proc sets, especially Tremorscale. Which is why we have our current state of PvP. So its not only their fault, it is also our fault for not making them aware of the problem when it first occurred.

@IzakiBrotheSs
Dark exchange is great on stamsorcs indeed. It´s main design flaw is the spell not draining resources if interrupted. There is no drawback spamming it while running around a tree.
The problem is that dark exchange was mentioned to be a sorc heal by zos back in the days. I can count the magica sorcs that were using either morph of this ability as a heal in pvp on one hand. I can also chop of all fingers on that hand aswell and it my assessment wouldn´t change.

Powersurge in my opinion is still a crap ability for magica sorcs. I could reliably get 1.5k+ hps while also having burst heals with fragments and heavy attacks prior to changes. Now my surge hps has not changed in comparison to pre nerf but it takes longer to heal up.
Critsurge is great as it heals more and has great synergy with dots which a stamina sorc is able to access in lots of different variations.
For a magica sorc the surge changes still net a nerf for pvp in my humble opinion (which could ofc be aleviated by giving sorcs access to a dmg over time ability worth slotting).

The destro ult was mainly discussed for pve vs meteor with it´s stationary morph. The critique prior to the two major buffs was absolutely justified as it needed BOTH BUFFS to now be a situational choice over meteor for endgame pve.
The eye morph prior to buffs was trashbats for excessive cost. The problem was (and this was voiced with concern on PTS before life aswell) - it had to be buffed to compete with meteor. It was buffed in that way. It was not a good idea.
The problem with this is the basic design of the ultimate being solely dmg focused - with every class already able to access great dmg ultimates (you have to make it deal even more dmg to make it worth considering).

Francescolg

Basically Fengrush is repeating everything we've been pointing out in the forums since late 2014 (too much pro-stamina equipment being introduced / OP Nightblades / Too much root/snare!...) When Bow & NB were already OP (together with sorc at that time), ZoS FAILED to fix this for 2 years, and we've been repeating and complaining about too much Root/Snare for years (no joke..). And what did they? They very lately nurfed one single skill (Bombard), instead of reworking the whole soft-CC m_ss of the game... NOTHING was done.. Same goes for the inbalanced pro-stamina equipment (first: weapon dmg bonus on monster sets whilst NO magicka damage bonus on 1 monster set,..., to the latest proc-sets, which also favor stamina..) The stealth+NB problem won't be touched, as they failed for 2 years to find a solution to the too-strong designed class (in a game with just 4 classes, lol).

Fengrush is right when he says: "It's very easy to build a NB and gank".. It is, in fact

Most people fail to accept zerging as a positive aspect of PvP (!) Especially for single-players, PvP feels good when you can stay all the time (!) at the hot spots, this is where you go. Most people hate (!) riding for longer times. The new camps were a joke, the old camps were the way to go! (also the pvp-cities are located too far away..) WE have always said that Cyrondil per se is too large.. The map is too large.. And there are no real incentives (like very rare sets you can farm from some bosses in the open world pvp area [not refering IC!])

Fengrush has not enough mmorpg-experience (especially Daoc) to understand that zerging is a natural thing in mmorpgs which most people will do the sooner or later.. In DAOC we had an ongoing battle-area a year (! before PvP upgrade), Emain, and we loved it. ZOS has listened too much too "pro players" and they never thought about Mr. Jon Doe, who likes to just zerg..
ESO had a "pretty fair" share of experience/AP gained per player per PvP-kill but they also me__ed this up.. Healer's gain on pvp-kills was severely nurfed (HoTs).. Etc. Long time ago, playing socially and healing and supporting players, which were not in your group, was rewarding (many more AP gained). What they changed lead only to more players zerging..

The secret to make PvP a better experience is to see it from a new perspective:
1) Accept that zerg is a natural thing, which comes, no matter what you do to avoid it!
2) Design the game with the Zerg in mind: Not so large maps, Not to powerful area damage spells, no too-attractive assassin classes (so that not too many players see the advantage and chose the best assassin class, namely NB! This should have been done in late summer 2014 when Aimed Shot WAS already killing in 1-3 shots from stealth, from distance, THIS was long ago...nothing was done, just a tiny tiny nurf on Aimed Shot, lol) .

I could write much more, I'll leave it here. ZOS did never listen to players like me, who even said: "that's too powerful", to everything: vMA-weapons, pro-stamina itemization, bonus damage from stealth, too much goodies for kill-/AP-ratio if you do the highest dmg to the target, proc-sets, etc. etc. Nothing was done!

Lava_Croft

Years of swimming upstream in an effort to reach ZOS has proven to be a waste of time.

Do not let it waste another couple of years of time you could very well spend on better products managed by better professionals who also happen to care for their entire customer base.

Izaki

Derra wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

jarydf wrote: »

Wrobel and Fengrush are on the same side. Both want the game to be fun for people playing pvp. But this is a hard thing to achieve. It is always easier to be the guy complaining than the guys that actually have to fix it and both of them know it.

When you have problems that you don't know how to deal with what do you do? You ask around. I'm sure that if ZOS was co-operating with the community then stuff will be much better. 41 minute video to touch on the problems in PvP. That just tells you that something is really wrong. I support ZOS and I know they work hard, but I also know that they can be more effective and do better.

Fengrush has so much more common sense than Wrobel it isn't funny. It doesn't take a genius to take a look at tremor scale and viper and say 'this is ridiculous, fix it'. He called it out a long time ago. Even made a video. They didn't listen.

As for 'asking around' they do that every update, it's called the PTS forums. Again, we told them that these things were broken and over the top. Nothing changed. I don't know how we can be any more obvious. Last patch there were a thousand malubeth threads, a bunch of people even renamed their characters 'nerf malubeth already' and some were crowned emperor. I don't know how much more *** obvious we can be and they still don't listen.

In the end, some fool at ZOS thought that they knew better than the rest of us, and they put these sets in and made these changed regardless.

Anyone remember Wrobel's "Sorc Change" thread? These changes are all conscious choices, not a series of accidents. Stop giving ZOS more credit than they deserve when they do a terrible job.

@Minalan As far as I'm concerned, Wrobel was right about everything he said on that thread and we were all wrong.
Dark Exchange worked out pretty sweet, some even say OP.
Surge is amazing.
Hurricane is amazing, a lot of people say that its a little too good.
Negate is great.

Most of the stuff that was going on in the PTS forums was about Destro ultimate being crap and the 2H ultimate being OP. Not many threads were talking proc sets, especially Tremorscale. Which is why we have our current state of PvP. So its not only their fault, it is also our fault for not making them aware of the problem when it first occurred.

@IzakiBrotheSs
Dark exchange is great on stamsorcs indeed. It´s main design flaw is the spell not draining resources if interrupted. There is no drawback spamming it while running around a tree.
The problem is that dark exchange was mentioned to be a sorc heal by zos back in the days. I can count the magica sorcs that were using either morph of this ability as a heal in pvp on one hand. I can also chop of all fingers on that hand aswell and it my assessment wouldn´t change.

Powersurge in my opinion is still a crap ability for magica sorcs. I could reliably get 1.5k+ hps while also having burst heals with fragments and heavy attacks prior to changes. Now my surge hps has not changed in comparison to pre nerf but it takes longer to heal up.
Critsurge is great as it heals more and has great synergy with dots which a stamina sorc is able to access in lots of different variations.
For a magica sorc the surge changes still net a nerf for pvp in my humble opinion (which could ofc be aleviated by giving sorcs access to a dmg over time ability worth slotting).

The destro ult was mainly discussed for pve vs meteor with it´s stationary morph. The critique prior to the two major buffs was absolutely justified as it needed BOTH BUFFS to now be a situational choice over meteor for endgame pve.
The eye morph prior to buffs was trashbats for excessive cost. The problem was (and this was voiced with concern on PTS before life aswell) - it had to be buffed to compete with meteor. It was buffed in that way. It was not a good idea.
The problem with this is the basic design of the ultimate being solely dmg focused - with every class already able to access great dmg ultimates (you have to make it deal even more dmg to make it worth considering).

I think that Dark Exchange is a sustain tool more than a heal to be honest and it was never intended to be a heal. I use Dark Conversion on my Overload bar (yeah the morph for magicka sorcs). If I'm inside my Mines (which are also on that bar) behind a rock, I can get 1 or 2 of these in and then pop a potion to restore like 17k magicka in 2 seconds. Nothing to say about it, other than the fact that its great. I think that the devs never intended for Dark Deal to be used my stam sorcs and Dark Conversion by mag sorcs. I think its supposed to be the other way round. With high enough sustain of your main resource, you also have unlimited sustain on your secondary one. Imagine a stam sorc having unlimited Streak and a magicka sorc with infinite dodge roll. The problem is that people don't build that way, they prefer to go for 0 sustain.

Power surge... I use Entropy on my front bar to empower my frags. I have power surge on my Overload bar if I need extra healing. Remember the difference in healing between the morphs is only 1.5k (so 750 hp in PvP). By itself the healing sucks yeah. But if you have some CP into boosting your healing taken, this thing tops off your health in no time and keeps it topped. No need for burst heals on a magicka sorc when you have healing ward. And in PvE, power surge is just as good as crit surge. You barely even need a shield in vMA. Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade just keep you healed.

Even after the buffs people were complaining and I can name a few from memory. After all one of the most expensive ultimates in the game should be hitting harder than meteor... I'm not defending it, but I mean there isn't really a way around it. If you want to weaken Eye of the storm, you gotta take the cost down.

Derra

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

jarydf wrote: »

Wrobel and Fengrush are on the same side. Both want the game to be fun for people playing pvp. But this is a hard thing to achieve. It is always easier to be the guy complaining than the guys that actually have to fix it and both of them know it.

When you have problems that you don't know how to deal with what do you do? You ask around. I'm sure that if ZOS was co-operating with the community then stuff will be much better. 41 minute video to touch on the problems in PvP. That just tells you that something is really wrong. I support ZOS and I know they work hard, but I also know that they can be more effective and do better.

Fengrush has so much more common sense than Wrobel it isn't funny. It doesn't take a genius to take a look at tremor scale and viper and say 'this is ridiculous, fix it'. He called it out a long time ago. Even made a video. They didn't listen.

As for 'asking around' they do that every update, it's called the PTS forums. Again, we told them that these things were broken and over the top. Nothing changed. I don't know how we can be any more obvious. Last patch there were a thousand malubeth threads, a bunch of people even renamed their characters 'nerf malubeth already' and some were crowned emperor. I don't know how much more *** obvious we can be and they still don't listen.

In the end, some fool at ZOS thought that they knew better than the rest of us, and they put these sets in and made these changed regardless.

Anyone remember Wrobel's "Sorc Change" thread? These changes are all conscious choices, not a series of accidents. Stop giving ZOS more credit than they deserve when they do a terrible job.

@Minalan As far as I'm concerned, Wrobel was right about everything he said on that thread and we were all wrong.
Dark Exchange worked out pretty sweet, some even say OP.
Surge is amazing.
Hurricane is amazing, a lot of people say that its a little too good.
Negate is great.

Most of the stuff that was going on in the PTS forums was about Destro ultimate being crap and the 2H ultimate being OP. Not many threads were talking proc sets, especially Tremorscale. Which is why we have our current state of PvP. So its not only their fault, it is also our fault for not making them aware of the problem when it first occurred.

@IzakiBrotheSs
Dark exchange is great on stamsorcs indeed. It´s main design flaw is the spell not draining resources if interrupted. There is no drawback spamming it while running around a tree.
The problem is that dark exchange was mentioned to be a sorc heal by zos back in the days. I can count the magica sorcs that were using either morph of this ability as a heal in pvp on one hand. I can also chop of all fingers on that hand aswell and it my assessment wouldn´t change.

Powersurge in my opinion is still a crap ability for magica sorcs. I could reliably get 1.5k+ hps while also having burst heals with fragments and heavy attacks prior to changes. Now my surge hps has not changed in comparison to pre nerf but it takes longer to heal up.
Critsurge is great as it heals more and has great synergy with dots which a stamina sorc is able to access in lots of different variations.
For a magica sorc the surge changes still net a nerf for pvp in my humble opinion (which could ofc be aleviated by giving sorcs access to a dmg over time ability worth slotting).

The destro ult was mainly discussed for pve vs meteor with it´s stationary morph. The critique prior to the two major buffs was absolutely justified as it needed BOTH BUFFS to now be a situational choice over meteor for endgame pve.
The eye morph prior to buffs was trashbats for excessive cost. The problem was (and this was voiced with concern on PTS before life aswell) - it had to be buffed to compete with meteor. It was buffed in that way. It was not a good idea.
The problem with this is the basic design of the ultimate being solely dmg focused - with every class already able to access great dmg ultimates (you have to make it deal even more dmg to make it worth considering).

I think that Dark Exchange is a sustain tool more than a heal to be honest and it was never intended to be a heal. I use Dark Conversion on my Overload bar (yeah the morph for magicka sorcs). If I'm inside my Mines (which are also on that bar) behind a rock, I can get 1 or 2 of these in and then pop a potion to restore like 17k magicka in 2 seconds. Nothing to say about it, other than the fact that its great. I think that the devs never intended for Dark Deal to be used my stam sorcs and Dark Conversion by mag sorcs. I think its supposed to be the other way round. With high enough sustain of your main resource, you also have unlimited sustain on your secondary one. Imagine a stam sorc having unlimited Streak and a magicka sorc with infinite dodge roll. The problem is that people don't build that way, they prefer to go for 0 sustain.

Power surge... I use Entropy on my front bar to empower my frags. I have power surge on my Overload bar if I need extra healing. Remember the difference in healing between the morphs is only 1.5k (so 750 hp in PvP). By itself the healing sucks yeah. But if you have some CP into boosting your healing taken, this thing tops off your health in no time and keeps it topped. No need for burst heals on a magicka sorc when you have healing ward. And in PvE, power surge is just as good as crit surge. You barely even need a shield in vMA. Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade just keep you healed.

Even after the buffs people were complaining and I can name a few from memory. After all one of the most expensive ultimates in the game should be hitting harder than meteor... I'm not defending it, but I mean there isn't really a way around it. If you want to weaken Eye of the storm, you gotta take the cost down.

Except dark exchange was mentioned as a heal for sorcerers by devs and numerous players when (magica)sorcs complained about not having a healing ability without excessive requirement.
It is mainly a resource sustain tool for magica sorcs by now - it´s just the initial changes also mentioned it as a heal. A thing it fails to achieve reliably.
I respectfully disagree on what spec is supposed to use what morph because from the very beginning the skill used to turn stamina into magica (good old 3s %cost of maxstamina channel time).

So your argument on powersurge being a subpar ability overall is - you use entropy (and sometimes surge on top of that).
Ok... - ...I don´t know what to make of that.
Considering the difference in tooltip for powersurge to critsurge is 750 hp. It´s 33% more effective. There is no place for only in that. 33% is a gigantic difference when it´s your only reliable classhealing ability.
Healing ward has nothing to do with the argument of surge being inadequate because it´s the epitome of onedimensional craptastic design forcing everyone to run restostaff:
1:"Hey does it matter if powersurge is absolute bullfeces to use as a heal?"
2:"Nah - you have healing ward"
1:"I don´t want to use a restora..."
2:"You have healing ward.
1:"...well that convinced me! What an enticing argument on the usefulness of surge: You have healing ward. N1. Ironically sums up surge pretty well."

The main complaint on the destro ult after it got buffed was in my opinion (and from my memory) it´s still unasked for and redundant design.
It did not give magica users anything they needed/wanted - it just gave them something better of what they already had.
Edit: I still think i´ve not seen a single comment of a player genuinly liking the ability for what it is(apart from optics). It does it´s job and that´s it.

RGD

I agree with most things in FENGRUSH's video. Honestly I don't go near PvP in it's current state. I went in yesterday and it wasn't short of a devastating experience. I'm fighting 1 guy and all it was is proc set and healing/shields until his buddies showed up and immediately I'm dead. I then fight 2 people, sustaining alright considering I'm a tank, then the whole AD zerg shows up and blasts through me. PvP is horrible right now, honestly, and it's not even rewarding for going through the pain.

Proc sets need to be sorted out, which I know they are, but they need to be adjusted and not made so powerful, they don't need to be made completely useless, though. Zerg friendly PvP needs to stop, it's not fun whatsoever, just makes people wanna PvE and new players will get PTSD from their experience with zergs. I see a zerg and I just stand still now and accept my fate. Which is immediate death with the added bonus of tbagging or emotes.

Cyrodiil could easily be fixed, too, this is what's frustrating. Just start caring more. Start updating and fixing/tweaking things regularly, rather than every 2, 3 or 4 months. Cyrodiil is pretty much end game, and when end game is completely broken and not fun, people won't want to play, numbers will drop and the game will edge closer to dying. We don't want ESO to die, and I doubt ZOS do. So please, devs, do the right thing.

Derra

Francescolg wrote: »

Basically Fengrush is repeating everything we've been pointing out in the forums since late 2014 (too much pro-stamina equipment being introduced / OP Nightblades / Too much root/snare!...) When Bow & NB were already OP (together with sorc at that time), ZoS FAILED to fix this for 2 years, and we've been repeating and complaining about too much Root/Snare for years (no joke..). And what did they? They very lately nurfed one single skill (Bombard), instead of reworking the whole soft-CC m_ss of the game... NOTHING was done.. Same goes for the inbalanced pro-stamina equipment (first: weapon dmg bonus on monster sets whilst NO magicka damage bonus on 1 monster set,..., to the latest proc-sets, which also favor stamina..) The stealth+NB problem won't be touched, as they failed for 2 years to find a solution to the too-strong designed class (in a game with just 4 classes, lol).

Fengrush is right when he says: "It's very easy to build a NB and gank".. It is, in fact

Most people fail to accept zerging as a positive aspect of PvP (!) Especially for single-players, PvP feels good when you can stay all the time (!) at the hot spots, this is where you go. Most people hate (!) riding for longer times. The new camps were a joke, the old camps were the way to go! (also the pvp-cities are located too far away..) WE have always said that Cyrondil per se is too large.. The map is too large.. And there are no real incentives (like very rare sets you can farm from some bosses in the open world pvp area [not refering IC!])

Fengrush has not enough mmorpg-experience (especially Daoc) to understand that zerging is a natural thing in mmorpgs which most people will do the sooner or later.. In DAOC we had an ongoing battle-area a year (! before PvP upgrade), Emain, and we loved it. ZOS has listened too much too "pro players" and they never thought about Mr. Jon Doe, who likes to just zerg..
ESO had a "pretty fair" share of experience/AP gained per player per PvP-kill but they also me__ed this up.. Healer's gain on pvp-kills was severely nurfed (HoTs).. Etc. Long time ago, playing socially and healing and supporting players, which were not in your group, was rewarding (many more AP gained). What they changed lead only to more players zerging..

The secret to make PvP a better experience is to see it from a new perspective:
1) Accept that zerg is a natural thing, which comes, no matter what you do to avoid it!
2) Design the game with the Zerg in mind: Not so large maps, Not to powerful area damage spells, no too-attractive assassin classes (so that not too many players see the advantage and chose the best assassin class, namely NB! This should have been done in late summer 2014 when Aimed Shot WAS already killing in 1-3 shots from stealth, from distance, THIS was long ago...nothing was done, just a tiny tiny nurf on Aimed Shot, lol) .

I could write much more, I'll leave it here. ZOS did never listen to players like me, who even said: "that's too powerful", to everything: vMA-weapons, pro-stamina itemization, bonus damage from stealth, too much goodies for kill-/AP-ratio if you do the highest dmg to the target, proc-sets, etc. etc. Nothing was done!

WAT?

Have i played the same daoc as you have from 2002 to 2009?

Daoc was probably the most unforgiving and noobunfriendly game i ever have and ever will play.

On top of that daoc had the most powerful aoe of every game i´ve ever played enabling you to literally obliterate half of a zerg in one second - which in combination with aoeCC being available resulted in organized groups being able to slaughter 6 or 7 times their numbers if they did it right.
Hell i still have a killstreak spam screenshotted of our 8 person group of killing 117 enemies in old emain macha effectively clearing the zone from any enemies in there not in stealth.

Daoc never followed the design of numbers trumping everything else (quite the opposite of some eso design decisions).

The daoc pvp map was probably comparable to cyrodiil. They just did a better job at designing the map funneling everything into the action with new frontiers instead of having a donut like cyrodiil.
Cyrodiil would instantly become 100% better if IC was attached to the mainland with bridges and districts were capturable objects not instanced setperately.

On top of that DAoC had an amazing community organizing 8vs8 fighting zones without adding on most european servers - because only farming the zerg eventually got boring.

Izaki

Francescolg wrote: »

Basically Fengrush is repeating everything we've been pointing out in the forums since late 2014 (too much pro-stamina equipment being introduced / OP Nightblades / Too much root/snare!...) When Bow & NB were already OP (together with sorc at that time), ZoS FAILED to fix this for 2 years, and we've been repeating and complaining about too much Root/Snare for years (no joke..). And what did they? They very lately nurfed one single skill (Bombard), instead of reworking the whole soft-CC m_ss of the game... NOTHING was done.. Same goes for the inbalanced pro-stamina equipment (first: weapon dmg bonus on monster sets whilst NO magicka damage bonus on 1 monster set,..., to the latest proc-sets, which also favor stamina..) The stealth+NB problem won't be touched, as they failed for 2 years to find a solution to the too-strong designed class (in a game with just 4 classes, lol).

Fengrush is right when he says: "It's very easy to build a NB and gank".. It is, in fact

Most people fail to accept zerging as a positive aspect of PvP (!) Especially for single-players, PvP feels good when you can stay all the time (!) at the hot spots, this is where you go. Most people hate (!) riding for longer times. The new camps were a joke, the old camps were the way to go! (also the pvp-cities are located too far away..) WE have always said that Cyrondil per se is too large.. The map is too large.. And there are no real incentives (like very rare sets you can farm from some bosses in the open world pvp area [not refering IC!])

Fengrush has not enough mmorpg-experience (especially Daoc) to understand that zerging is a natural thing in mmorpgs which most people will do the sooner or later.. In DAOC we had an ongoing battle-area a year (! before PvP upgrade), Emain, and we loved it. ZOS has listened too much too "pro players" and they never thought about Mr. Jon Doe, who likes to just zerg..
ESO had a "pretty fair" share of experience/AP gained per player per PvP-kill but they also me__ed this up.. Healer's gain on pvp-kills was severely nurfed (HoTs).. Etc. Long time ago, playing socially and healing and supporting players, which were not in your group, was rewarding (many more AP gained). What they changed lead only to more players zerging..

The secret to make PvP a better experience is to see it from a new perspective:
1) Accept that zerg is a natural thing, which comes, no matter what you do to avoid it!
2) Design the game with the Zerg in mind: Not so large maps, Not to powerful area damage spells, no too-attractive assassin classes (so that not too many players see the advantage and chose the best assassin class, namely NB! This should have been done in late summer 2014 when Aimed Shot WAS already killing in 1-3 shots from stealth, from distance, THIS was long ago...nothing was done, just a tiny tiny nurf on Aimed Shot, lol) .

I could write much more, I'll leave it here. ZOS did never listen to players like me, who even said: "that's too powerful", to everything: vMA-weapons, pro-stamina itemization, bonus damage from stealth, too much goodies for kill-/AP-ratio if you do the highest dmg to the target, proc-sets, etc. etc. Nothing was done!

Why are you talking about 2014 when back then stamina was utter garbage?... In imperial city stam classes were only strong because of shield breaker. The only time where stamina started to really dominate was 2016 after TG and DB.

Derra wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

jarydf wrote: »

Wrobel and Fengrush are on the same side. Both want the game to be fun for people playing pvp. But this is a hard thing to achieve. It is always easier to be the guy complaining than the guys that actually have to fix it and both of them know it.

When you have problems that you don't know how to deal with what do you do? You ask around. I'm sure that if ZOS was co-operating with the community then stuff will be much better. 41 minute video to touch on the problems in PvP. That just tells you that something is really wrong. I support ZOS and I know they work hard, but I also know that they can be more effective and do better.

Fengrush has so much more common sense than Wrobel it isn't funny. It doesn't take a genius to take a look at tremor scale and viper and say 'this is ridiculous, fix it'. He called it out a long time ago. Even made a video. They didn't listen.

As for 'asking around' they do that every update, it's called the PTS forums. Again, we told them that these things were broken and over the top. Nothing changed. I don't know how we can be any more obvious. Last patch there were a thousand malubeth threads, a bunch of people even renamed their characters 'nerf malubeth already' and some were crowned emperor. I don't know how much more *** obvious we can be and they still don't listen.

In the end, some fool at ZOS thought that they knew better than the rest of us, and they put these sets in and made these changed regardless.

Anyone remember Wrobel's "Sorc Change" thread? These changes are all conscious choices, not a series of accidents. Stop giving ZOS more credit than they deserve when they do a terrible job.

@Minalan As far as I'm concerned, Wrobel was right about everything he said on that thread and we were all wrong.
Dark Exchange worked out pretty sweet, some even say OP.
Surge is amazing.
Hurricane is amazing, a lot of people say that its a little too good.
Negate is great.

Most of the stuff that was going on in the PTS forums was about Destro ultimate being crap and the 2H ultimate being OP. Not many threads were talking proc sets, especially Tremorscale. Which is why we have our current state of PvP. So its not only their fault, it is also our fault for not making them aware of the problem when it first occurred.

@IzakiBrotheSs
Dark exchange is great on stamsorcs indeed. It´s main design flaw is the spell not draining resources if interrupted. There is no drawback spamming it while running around a tree.
The problem is that dark exchange was mentioned to be a sorc heal by zos back in the days. I can count the magica sorcs that were using either morph of this ability as a heal in pvp on one hand. I can also chop of all fingers on that hand aswell and it my assessment wouldn´t change.

Powersurge in my opinion is still a crap ability for magica sorcs. I could reliably get 1.5k+ hps while also having burst heals with fragments and heavy attacks prior to changes. Now my surge hps has not changed in comparison to pre nerf but it takes longer to heal up.
Critsurge is great as it heals more and has great synergy with dots which a stamina sorc is able to access in lots of different variations.
For a magica sorc the surge changes still net a nerf for pvp in my humble opinion (which could ofc be aleviated by giving sorcs access to a dmg over time ability worth slotting).

The destro ult was mainly discussed for pve vs meteor with it´s stationary morph. The critique prior to the two major buffs was absolutely justified as it needed BOTH BUFFS to now be a situational choice over meteor for endgame pve.
The eye morph prior to buffs was trashbats for excessive cost. The problem was (and this was voiced with concern on PTS before life aswell) - it had to be buffed to compete with meteor. It was buffed in that way. It was not a good idea.
The problem with this is the basic design of the ultimate being solely dmg focused - with every class already able to access great dmg ultimates (you have to make it deal even more dmg to make it worth considering).

I think that Dark Exchange is a sustain tool more than a heal to be honest and it was never intended to be a heal. I use Dark Conversion on my Overload bar (yeah the morph for magicka sorcs). If I'm inside my Mines (which are also on that bar) behind a rock, I can get 1 or 2 of these in and then pop a potion to restore like 17k magicka in 2 seconds. Nothing to say about it, other than the fact that its great. I think that the devs never intended for Dark Deal to be used my stam sorcs and Dark Conversion by mag sorcs. I think its supposed to be the other way round. With high enough sustain of your main resource, you also have unlimited sustain on your secondary one. Imagine a stam sorc having unlimited Streak and a magicka sorc with infinite dodge roll. The problem is that people don't build that way, they prefer to go for 0 sustain.

Power surge... I use Entropy on my front bar to empower my frags. I have power surge on my Overload bar if I need extra healing. Remember the difference in healing between the morphs is only 1.5k (so 750 hp in PvP). By itself the healing sucks yeah. But if you have some CP into boosting your healing taken, this thing tops off your health in no time and keeps it topped. No need for burst heals on a magicka sorc when you have healing ward. And in PvE, power surge is just as good as crit surge. You barely even need a shield in vMA. Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade just keep you healed.

Even after the buffs people were complaining and I can name a few from memory. After all one of the most expensive ultimates in the game should be hitting harder than meteor... I'm not defending it, but I mean there isn't really a way around it. If you want to weaken Eye of the storm, you gotta take the cost down.

Except dark exchange was mentioned as a heal for sorcerers by devs and numerous players when (magica)sorcs complained about not having a healing ability without excessive requirement.
It is mainly a resource sustain tool for magica sorcs by now - it´s just the initial changes also mentioned it as a heal. A thing it fails to achieve reliably.
I respectfully disagree on what spec is supposed to use what morph because from the very beginning the skill used to turn stamina into magica (good old 3s %cost of maxstamina channel time).

So your argument on powersurge being a subpar ability overall is - you use entropy (and sometimes surge on top of that).
Ok... - ...I don´t know what to make of that.
Considering the difference in tooltip for powersurge to critsurge is 750 hp. It´s 33% more effective. There is no place for only in that. 33% is a gigantic difference when it´s your only reliable classhealing ability.
Healing ward has nothing to do with the argument of surge being inadequate because it´s the epitome of onedimensional craptastic design forcing everyone to run restostaff:
1:"Hey does it matter if powersurge is absolute bullfeces to use as a heal?"
2:"Nah - you have healing ward"
1:"I don´t want to use a restora..."
2:"You have healing ward.
1:"...well that convinced me! What an enticing argument on the usefulness of surge: You have healing ward. N1. Ironically sums up surge pretty well."

The main complaint on the destro ult after it got buffed was in my opinion (and from my memory) it´s still unasked for and redundant design.
It did not give magica users anything they needed/wanted - it just gave them something better of what they already had.

Did they really say that Dark Exchange was a heal? I don't recall that... And just as you pointed out the original functionality of the skill, it was a resource management thing, not a heal. But anyway, what do you mean by your last argument? One morph was channeling stamina into magicka and the other magicka into stamina... That part stayed the same.

No you don't get it. I have to use Entropy for the empower to the Frags since I dual wield. I could and would use power surge if I ran a destro staff.
33% may be a gigantic difference, but power surge also gives you the Major Sorcerery buff. So if you were getting the buff from elsewhere there's no reason not to use critical surge for the heal right? If you want the heal and the buff, well you have to have a less effective heal. I personally think that 33% less effectiveness is a balanced price for an important buff like that, which saves you running specific potions or Entropy. The morph adds an extra buff, do you really expect it to be just as powerful as the other morph? I did say that power surge is not great as your only heal in PvP, but neither is crit surge. Ever see any stam sorcs run with just critical surge around Cyrodiil? You might say that, its not fair that stamina sorcerers get a larger heal while getting their buff at the same time. Sure, but is if fair that the pet heals and the Ward scales only off magicka? In the end its a balanced defense/offense ability for both sorcerer specs.
In PvE, its power surge is very viable as your only heal. So is critical surge.
The surge debate can go on forever. But fact stays fact, if you build for it, surge is arguably one of the best passive HoTs in the game in PvE, and it remains a decent heal in PvP. Why isn't it as effective in PvP as it is in PvE? Because you don't build for critical chance which just reduces the uptime on the heals.
Bottom line: if you want the heal and only the heal => crit surge, if you want the heal and the buff => power surge.
Also you're not forced to run a resto staff. If you decided to use the pets (which heal just as well as Breath of Life) you would be able to drop the resto staff. So the whole "forcing people into a resto staff" has been a myth for quite a while.

Yes that is true, everyone wanted a cheap burst ultimate. They did the exact opposite. But people were complaining not only because of the redundant design, but also because of "the obvious lack of damage compared to meteor" and "the shorter DoT duration" and "the absence of utility functions" even after the buffs.

Francescolg

Derra wrote: »

WAT?

Have i played the same daoc as you have from 2002 to 2009?

Daoc was probably the most unforgiving and noobunfriendly game i ever have and ever will play.

I wrote: "before the PvP upgrade/expansion" which was New Frontiers and before New Frontiers we had months of zerg in Emain. And you know what! Some people enjoyed it more than after New Frontiers, which ruined that..
If you'd have played DAOC from the very first day, you would have better understood what I wrote and recognized what was meant.

Nuub-friendliness in PvP was not my argument (imbalance in DAOC would be too much text for this thread). I was talking about "how natural" zerg is and in fact in Emain it was, as well as in other games. Having all players concentrate at the hot spots of the battle is, I can repeat myself endless times, it is a natural thing! People like to go there in all mmos (pvp) and complaining about unorganized zergs in Cyrondil is wasted time, because the zerg comes sooner or later.. The bridge in Cyrondil is one example. And you know what!? Some people really like hanging around there for hours and hours..

Not all PvP'ers want to do strategic goals all the time, the opposite is the case! Some want just a) short travelling distances b) immediate action and c) long lasting battles on one spot, a thing about which Fengrush is complaining and many others..
Stick to topic please, if you critize!

Francescolg

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Why are you talking about 2014 when back then stamina was utter garbage?... In imperial city stam classes were only strong because of shield breaker. The only time where stamina started to really dominate was 2016 after TG and

Because, already in late-2014, you could feel how OP stamina specs would become. It started with the enormous aimed shots from stealth.. About 1 y later, came the new monster sets, like Molag Kena, with a weapon damage bonus by just using one set piece..! NOTHING comparable (to Molag Kena 1piece-bonus) was introduced for magicka, by a fairly long time.. Same applies to sets with tier 1 and 2-set bonus with stamina regeneration. The equivalent magicka-set (1st and 2nd tier regeneration bonus) was introduced much later. ...
If you make a list, you will see step-by-step that ZOS has favored stamina specs with new stuff (also Fengrush says that about the proc sets..), whereas nothing comparable for magicka specs was introduced. This list is long and it has been going on for 2 years...

And we did also point that out, when the Molag Kena set and IC were released,. We informed ZOS that Molag Kena was the only set offering a weapon damage bonus on 1 piece, whilst there was nothing comparable for magicka..
Is this how balance works? Even when very basic stuff, like set bonuses, is introduced, they favour stamina (max. weapon-dmg) builds!

Let's leave it here, if I start with every single item... I do not want to write that much. It's no longer worth it to invest my leisure time in debating with anyone.. Either take my words or not..

Derra

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

No you don't get it. I have to use Entropy for the empower to the Frags since I dual wield. I could and would use power surge if I ran a destro staff.
33% may be a gigantic difference, but power surge also gives you the Major Sorcerery buff. So if you were getting the buff from elsewhere there's no reason not to use critical surge for the heal right? If you want the heal and the buff, well you have to have a less effective heal. I personally think that 33% less effectiveness is a balanced price for an important buff like that, which saves you running specific potions or Entropy. The morph adds an extra buff, do you really expect it to be just as powerful as the other morph? I did say that power surge is not great as your only heal in PvP, but neither is crit surge. Ever see any stam sorcs run with just critical surge around Cyrodiil? You might say that, its not fair that stamina sorcerers get a larger heal while getting their buff at the same time. Sure, but is if fair that the pet heals and the Ward scales only off magicka? In the end its a balanced defense/offense ability for both sorcerer specs.
In PvE, its power surge is very viable as your only heal. So is critical surge.
The surge debate can go on forever. But fact stays fact, if you build for it, surge is arguably one of the best passive HoTs in the game in PvE, and it remains a decent heal in PvP. Why isn't it as effective in PvP as it is in PvE? Because you don't build for critical chance which just reduces the uptime on the heals.
Bottom line: if you want the heal and only the heal => crit surge, if you want the heal and the buff => power surge.
Also you're not forced to run a resto staff. If you decided to use the pets (which heal just as well as Breath of Life) you would be able to drop the resto staff. So the whole "forcing people into a resto staff" has been a myth for quite a while.

Sorry but pretty much everything here is simply - meh.

Why does stamsorc not have to make the decision between heal and buff (they do have access to a pet heal not scaling of max magica - good to know eh)? They get their heal and the buff (and also have a plenthora of pvp vaible dot effects at their disposal). They also get their other main heal in alliance war and not on a weapon line - how ironic.
I do see a lot of stamsorcs not running 2h nowadays whereas i can think of two magica sorcs i´ve encountered on trueflame eu in the past month not running resto (because it´s such a rare sight i actually remember those).

You know what? I actually build for crit and heal in pvp. I always have since thief got changed. That´s why i feel entitled to say the things i say about surge healing - i have actually played that way before and after the changes to surge (and your comments about not being built for crit in pvp lead me to believe you have not).
Surge healing used to be very vaible if built properly for it. Now the difference in healing between a 35% !base! crit build and 60% crit thief + major phrophecy build is almost neglible when able to constantly attack.
It is that bad because of the changes and the fact of magica sorcs having no reliable targetted dots.

Last but not least: Pets. Really? The clannfear is about the only option really offering a heal as the twilight will still get oneshot by any opponent who knows what they´re doing.
So you have a 17.5% HP heal with subtential cost requiring a slot on both of your bars? Have i played builds utilizing this? Yes it´s 100% the preferred option over twilight. Is it a competetive option to the alternatives (meaning healing ward)? No.

Telling a sorc to use pets for healing instead of resto is basically the same as telling a pve stam player to use blood altar when they don´t want to get vigor...

Derra

Francescolg wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

WAT?

Have i played the same daoc as you have from 2002 to 2009?

Daoc was probably the most unforgiving and noobunfriendly game i ever have and ever will play.

I wrote: "before the PvP upgrade/expansion" which was New Frontiers and before New Frontiers we had months of zerg in Emain. And you know what! Some people enjoyed it more than after New Frontiers, which ruined that..
If you'd have played DAOC from the very first day, you would have better understood what I wrote and recognized what was meant.

Nuub-friendliness in PvP was not my argument (imbalance in DAOC would be too much text for this thread). I was talking about "how natural" zerg is and in fact in Emain it was, as well as in other games. Having all players concentrate at the hot spots of the battle is, I can repeat myself endless times, it is a natural thing! People like to go there in all mmos (pvp) and complaining about unorganized zergs in Cyrondil is wasted time, because the zerg comes sooner or later.. The bridge in Cyrondil is one example. And you know what!? Some people really like hanging around there for hours and hours..

Not all PvP'ers want to do strategic goals all the time, the opposite is the case! Some want just a) short travelling distances b) immediate action and c) long lasting battles on one spot, a thing about which Fengrush is complaining and many others..
Stick to topic please, if you critize!

I have played daoc starting with the EU beta in january 2002. Then from 2002 eu release to the end EU clustering.

If you had paid any attention to what i´ve wrote then you would have probably read:

Hell i still have a killstreak spam screenshotted of our 8 person group of killing 117 enemies in old emain macha effectively clearing the zone from any enemies in there not in stealth.

I just think that old frontiers was even less noob and zerg friendly as dying meant having to wait 10 minutes for the porter in extreme cases. No comparison to new frontiers boatrides (or just walks to agramon later on).
You can have your instant action small map. You just have to wait for a 1 to 10 minute respawn. Would that be a deal for you?
Edit: Also i don´t think hibs would agree with the small map instant action statement. Druim Ligen to Emain was quite a run back in the days

Izaki

Derra wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

No you don't get it. I have to use Entropy for the empower to the Frags since I dual wield. I could and would use power surge if I ran a destro staff.
33% may be a gigantic difference, but power surge also gives you the Major Sorcerery buff. So if you were getting the buff from elsewhere there's no reason not to use critical surge for the heal right? If you want the heal and the buff, well you have to have a less effective heal. I personally think that 33% less effectiveness is a balanced price for an important buff like that, which saves you running specific potions or Entropy. The morph adds an extra buff, do you really expect it to be just as powerful as the other morph? I did say that power surge is not great as your only heal in PvP, but neither is crit surge. Ever see any stam sorcs run with just critical surge around Cyrodiil? You might say that, its not fair that stamina sorcerers get a larger heal while getting their buff at the same time. Sure, but is if fair that the pet heals and the Ward scales only off magicka? In the end its a balanced defense/offense ability for both sorcerer specs.
In PvE, its power surge is very viable as your only heal. So is critical surge.
The surge debate can go on forever. But fact stays fact, if you build for it, surge is arguably one of the best passive HoTs in the game in PvE, and it remains a decent heal in PvP. Why isn't it as effective in PvP as it is in PvE? Because you don't build for critical chance which just reduces the uptime on the heals.
Bottom line: if you want the heal and only the heal => crit surge, if you want the heal and the buff => power surge.
Also you're not forced to run a resto staff. If you decided to use the pets (which heal just as well as Breath of Life) you would be able to drop the resto staff. So the whole "forcing people into a resto staff" has been a myth for quite a while.

Sorry but pretty much everything here is simply - meh.

Why does stamsorc not have to make the decision between heal and buff (they do have access to a pet heal not scaling of max magica - good to know eh)? They get their heal and the buff (and also have a plenthora of pvp vaible dot effects at their disposal). They also get their other main heal in alliance war and not on a weapon line - how ironic.
I do see a lot of stamsorcs not running 2h nowadays whereas i can think of two magica sorcs i´ve encountered on trueflame eu in the past month not running resto (because it´s such a rare sight i actually remember those).

You know what? I actually build for crit and heal in pvp. I always have since thief got changed. That´s why i feel entitled to say the things i say about surge healing - i have actually played that way before and after the changes to surge (and your comments about not being built for crit in pvp lead me to believe you have not).
Surge healing used to be very vaible if built properly for it. Now the difference in healing between a 35% !base! crit build and 60% crit thief + major phrophecy build is almost neglible when able to constantly attack.
It is that bad because of the changes and the fact of magica sorcs having no reliable targetted dots.

Last but not least: Pets. Really? The clannfear is about the only option really offering a heal as the twilight will still get oneshot by any opponent who knows what they´re doing.
So you have a 17.5% HP heal with subtential cost requiring a slot on both of your bars? Have i played builds utilizing this? Yes it´s 100% the preferred option over twilight. Is it a competetive option to the alternatives (meaning healing ward)? No.

Telling a sorc to use pets for healing instead of resto is basically the same as telling a pve stam player to use blood altar when they don´t want to get vigor...

Wait why is everyone complaining now, when crit surge was always this way? It never provided Major Sorcerery and everyone was fine with it. Hell, magicka sorcerers even used crit surge over power surge back in the day for the heals and potions for Sorcerery. No one ever complained about power surge providing smaller heals. Now all of a sudden, when stam sorcs become popular, everyone is on about how crit surge is OP for them but not for magicka sorcs. You get an extra buff from the ability, you get less healing its logical, is it not? Surge is a perfectly viable secondary heal.
I have always used the thief since I started to PvP (cause I couldn't be bothered grabbing other mundus stones after doing trials), up until SotH where I made a second sorcerer and switched to the Mage mundus (sometimes the Shadow). No the difference is still pretty huge between 32% base crit and 48% crit, you're not able to land attacks every 1 second because shielding, repositioning and buffing up.

I'm not telling you to use pets, I'm saying that you're not forced into a resto staff. If you hated the resto that bad, there are class skills. BTW the Twilight heal > Clanfear heal because of the cost and due to the heal not being % based, at least thats from my experience with pets. Also the scamp is a great way to deal damage so the Twilight is even more preferred for the healing. Pets are a perfectly viable healing option that unties you from a resto staff.

Derra

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

I'm not telling you to use pets, I'm saying that you're not forced into a resto staff. If you hated the resto that bad, there are class skills. BTW the Twilight heal > Clanfear heal because of the cost and due to the heal not being % based, at least thats from my experience with pets. Also the scamp is a great way to deal damage so the Twilight is even more preferred for the healing. Pets are a perfectly viable healing option that unties you from a resto staff.

A heal that is able to be 1 shot is not a vaible healing option in my opinion. Especially when it also stops working entirely in lag.

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Wait why is everyone complaining now, when crit surge was always this way? It never provided Major Sorcerery and everyone was fine with it. Hell, magicka sorcerers even used crit surge over power surge back in the day for the heals and potions for Sorcerery. No one ever complained about power surge providing smaller heals. Now all of a sudden, when stam sorcs become popular, everyone is on about how crit surge is OP for them but not for magicka sorcs. You get an extra buff from the ability, you get less healing its logical, is it not? Surge is a perfectly viable secondary heal.

I actually complained about this when the whole system got changed (in the old system prior to 1.6 where surge was only a weapondmg buff with either bigger heals or longer duration).
So i´ve always been complaining about this
Because it does not make sense to have a weaker heal for having a second buff that´s 100% useless.

Paraflex

Derra wrote: »

Francescolg wrote: »

Basically Fengrush is repeating everything we've been pointing out in the forums since late 2014 (too much pro-stamina equipment being introduced / OP Nightblades / Too much root/snare!...) When Bow & NB were already OP (together with sorc at that time), ZoS FAILED to fix this for 2 years, and we've been repeating and complaining about too much Root/Snare for years (no joke..). And what did they? They very lately nurfed one single skill (Bombard), instead of reworking the whole soft-CC m_ss of the game... NOTHING was done.. Same goes for the inbalanced pro-stamina equipment (first: weapon dmg bonus on monster sets whilst NO magicka damage bonus on 1 monster set,..., to the latest proc-sets, which also favor stamina..) The stealth+NB problem won't be touched, as they failed for 2 years to find a solution to the too-strong designed class (in a game with just 4 classes, lol).

Fengrush is right when he says: "It's very easy to build a NB and gank".. It is, in fact

Most people fail to accept zerging as a positive aspect of PvP (!) Especially for single-players, PvP feels good when you can stay all the time (!) at the hot spots, this is where you go. Most people hate (!) riding for longer times. The new camps were a joke, the old camps were the way to go! (also the pvp-cities are located too far away..) WE have always said that Cyrondil per se is too large.. The map is too large.. And there are no real incentives (like very rare sets you can farm from some bosses in the open world pvp area [not refering IC!])

Fengrush has not enough mmorpg-experience (especially Daoc) to understand that zerging is a natural thing in mmorpgs which most people will do the sooner or later.. In DAOC we had an ongoing battle-area a year (! before PvP upgrade), Emain, and we loved it. ZOS has listened too much too "pro players" and they never thought about Mr. Jon Doe, who likes to just zerg..
ESO had a "pretty fair" share of experience/AP gained per player per PvP-kill but they also me__ed this up.. Healer's gain on pvp-kills was severely nurfed (HoTs).. Etc. Long time ago, playing socially and healing and supporting players, which were not in your group, was rewarding (many more AP gained). What they changed lead only to more players zerging..

The secret to make PvP a better experience is to see it from a new perspective:
1) Accept that zerg is a natural thing, which comes, no matter what you do to avoid it!
2) Design the game with the Zerg in mind: Not so large maps, Not to powerful area damage spells, no too-attractive assassin classes (so that not too many players see the advantage and chose the best assassin class, namely NB! This should have been done in late summer 2014 when Aimed Shot WAS already killing in 1-3 shots from stealth, from distance, THIS was long ago...nothing was done, just a tiny tiny nurf on Aimed Shot, lol) .

I could write much more, I'll leave it here. ZOS did never listen to players like me, who even said: "that's too powerful", to everything: vMA-weapons, pro-stamina itemization, bonus damage from stealth, too much goodies for kill-/AP-ratio if you do the highest dmg to the target, proc-sets, etc. etc. Nothing was done!

WAT?

Have i played the same daoc as you have from 2002 to 2009?

Daoc was probably the most unforgiving and noobunfriendly game i ever have and ever will play.

On top of that daoc had the most powerful aoe of every game i´ve ever played enabling you to literally obliterate half of a zerg in one second - which in combination with aoeCC being available resulted in organized groups being able to slaughter 6 or 7 times their numbers if they did it right.
Hell i still have a killstreak spam screenshotted of our 8 person group of killing 117 enemies in old emain macha effectively clearing the zone from any enemies in there not in stealth.

Daoc never followed the design of numbers trumping everything else (quite the opposite of some eso design decisions).

The daoc pvp map was probably comparable to cyrodiil. They just did a better job at designing the map funneling everything into the action with new frontiers instead of having a donut like cyrodiil.
Cyrodiil would instantly become 100% better if IC was attached to the mainland with bridges and districts were capturable objects not instanced setperately.

On top of that DAoC had an amazing community organizing 8vs8 fighting zones without adding on most european servers - because only farming the zerg eventually got boring.

I played daoc Hib Merlin and there were always Zergs to kill for 8 mans.

One big problem is we need ranged aoe CC that only breaks on damage or waste a full stamina bar. Kinda like how prolonged suffering works but better.

The CC in this game is to easy to break out of and these no penalty to just spam AOE.


Remember when you were mezzed and your purge was down? You would hope to god some idiot would break your mez before a dps train stunned you and burned you down in 1 second.


It was effective and to have a ranged aoe CC in the game...things like strategy and first strike on a group actually gave you a positive outcome.

Lokey0024

olsborg wrote: »

I'll be sitting on the edge of my seat while reading the next major patch notes, because those notes will decide if theres a point to continue playing or not. All of the issues that fengrush talks about in the video is pretty legitimate issues that contribute to a *** cyrodiil experience, but the issue that needs to be fixed asap is proccsets and heavy armor imo. (also destroult)

They got some esplainin to do, thats for sure.

Joy_Division

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

No you don't get it. I have to use Entropy for the empower to the Frags since I dual wield. I could and would use power surge if I ran a destro staff.
33% may be a gigantic difference, but power surge also gives you the Major Sorcerery buff. So if you were getting the buff from elsewhere there's no reason not to use critical surge for the heal right? If you want the heal and the buff, well you have to have a less effective heal. I personally think that 33% less effectiveness is a balanced price for an important buff like that, which saves you running specific potions or Entropy. The morph adds an extra buff, do you really expect it to be just as powerful as the other morph? I did say that power surge is not great as your only heal in PvP, but neither is crit surge. Ever see any stam sorcs run with just critical surge around Cyrodiil? You might say that, its not fair that stamina sorcerers get a larger heal while getting their buff at the same time. Sure, but is if fair that the pet heals and the Ward scales only off magicka? In the end its a balanced defense/offense ability for both sorcerer specs.
In PvE, its power surge is very viable as your only heal. So is critical surge.
The surge debate can go on forever. But fact stays fact, if you build for it, surge is arguably one of the best passive HoTs in the game in PvE, and it remains a decent heal in PvP. Why isn't it as effective in PvP as it is in PvE? Because you don't build for critical chance which just reduces the uptime on the heals.
Bottom line: if you want the heal and only the heal => crit surge, if you want the heal and the buff => power surge.
Also you're not forced to run a resto staff. If you decided to use the pets (which heal just as well as Breath of Life) you would be able to drop the resto staff. So the whole "forcing people into a resto staff" has been a myth for quite a while.

Sorry but pretty much everything here is simply - meh.

Why does stamsorc not have to make the decision between heal and buff (they do have access to a pet heal not scaling of max magica - good to know eh)? They get their heal and the buff (and also have a plenthora of pvp vaible dot effects at their disposal). They also get their other main heal in alliance war and not on a weapon line - how ironic.
I do see a lot of stamsorcs not running 2h nowadays whereas i can think of two magica sorcs i´ve encountered on trueflame eu in the past month not running resto (because it´s such a rare sight i actually remember those).

You know what? I actually build for crit and heal in pvp. I always have since thief got changed. That´s why i feel entitled to say the things i say about surge healing - i have actually played that way before and after the changes to surge (and your comments about not being built for crit in pvp lead me to believe you have not).
Surge healing used to be very vaible if built properly for it. Now the difference in healing between a 35% !base! crit build and 60% crit thief + major phrophecy build is almost neglible when able to constantly attack.
It is that bad because of the changes and the fact of magica sorcs having no reliable targetted dots.

Last but not least: Pets. Really? The clannfear is about the only option really offering a heal as the twilight will still get oneshot by any opponent who knows what they´re doing.
So you have a 17.5% HP heal with subtential cost requiring a slot on both of your bars? Have i played builds utilizing this? Yes it´s 100% the preferred option over twilight. Is it a competetive option to the alternatives (meaning healing ward)? No.

Telling a sorc to use pets for healing instead of resto is basically the same as telling a pve stam player to use blood altar when they don´t want to get vigor...

Wait why is everyone complaining now, when crit surge was always this way? It never provided Major Sorcerery and everyone was fine with it. Hell, magicka sorcerers even used crit surge over power surge back in the day for the heals and potions for Sorcerery. No one ever complained about power surge providing smaller heals. Now all of a sudden, when stam sorcs become popular, everyone is on about how crit surge is OP for them but not for magicka sorcs. You get an extra buff from the ability, you get less healing its logical, is it not? Surge is a perfectly viable secondary heal.
I have always used the thief since I started to PvP (cause I couldn't be bothered grabbing other mundus stones after doing trials), up until SotH where I made a second sorcerer and switched to the Mage mundus (sometimes the Shadow). No the difference is still pretty huge between 32% base crit and 48% crit, you're not able to land attacks every 1 second because shielding, repositioning and buffing up.

I'm not telling you to use pets, I'm saying that you're not forced into a resto staff. If you hated the resto that bad, there are class skills. BTW the Twilight heal > Clanfear heal because of the cost and due to the heal not being % based, at least thats from my experience with pets. Also the scamp is a great way to deal damage so the Twilight is even more preferred for the healing. Pets are a perfectly viable healing option that unties you from a resto staff.

For the record, I have complained about the sorcerer surge skill the day the PTS for 1.6 launched.

The idea that stam sorcerers should just get a better version than magicka is IMHO 1000% asinine and a obsolete relic of the pre 1.6 system when "weapon damage" was not just a stamina thing. The base version should provide both mag/stam 20% buffs - because we only care about 1 of them anyway - one morph should be the current low constant heal and the other morph should be the old version burst heal.

My group once asked me to try out the Twilight heal for PvP one night after the "pet patch". That lasted about 5 minutes. I disagree that they are a perfectly viable option. Perhaps viable in specific formats such as a duel or some PvE stuff. That pet wont always be able to give the heal when it is needed unlike a templar or a resto staff.

Erock25

Valencer wrote: »

My stam DK has more crit, weapon damage, healing and overall sustain (although in a different way) in heavy than in medium... this is just wrong on so many levels.

@Valencer Could you please explain to me how you have more crit and weapon dmg in heavy compared to medium? The numbers just don't add up. I also believe the healing passive from heavy is outshined by the extra weapon dmg and crit from medium armor but I'd really appreciate it if you could at least explain how you're getting more crit and weapon dmg from ehavy.

Adernath

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Battlegrounds!

Hehe thanks it was a typo