Zenimax, here's what's wrong with your PVP aspect of the game right now...

LegendaryMage

I hope someone listens, and this doesn't fall on deaf ears, really...

- You have overbuffed stamina builds in general.

- You have introduced too many high damage chance based proc sets, that when combined, are doing ridiculous amounts of damage, bursting almost anyone unlucky enough to be on the receiving end of it. Monster ones, regular ones etc. Only counter is to play a really tanky setup yourself, otherwise your number is up on the next cooldown probably.

- You have favored stamina builds in the champion system. Unchained is much better than foresight for example. Balance the cp system and make it more equal.

- You have overbuffed heavy armor with sets such as blackrose. Tone it down, there are no resource problems in heavy armor while the damage potential is there also.

- Pet sorcs are ridiculously stronger than non-pet sorcs. Competent summoners are destroying classic mag sorcs in a laughable way. This is not due to pets, it's most likely due to sets and combos such as trainee/necropotence/mage mundus/destruction mastery etc. 50k+ magicka pools are a bit too much to deal with. If you want a closer to 60k magicka pool, go and get your emperorship.

- Heavy armor magicka templars purge and heal a bit too much while being extremely tanky and with the ability to block for prolonged periods of time. Sets such as malubeth aren't helping while fighting these. Since I mentioned malubeth, there's no reason why this set should grant an additional 30% healing, it should just give minor/major buff instead.

- Potions such as vitality, immovable, detection, are a bit too strong. They need to be toned down so that classic ones such as tri-stat have more appeal.

- Poisons such as resource draining ones last for too long. Cut down the duration significantly.

- Change armor skills so that you can only use them if you wear 5 or more pieces of that same armor type.

- Crowd control is out of control. Snares, stuns, immobilizations, traps etc etc etc are totally out of control nowadays, regardless of whether you're using counters or not. It's almost as if it doesn't matter whether you're using them or not.

As of now, PVP feels more like a first person shooter instead of an mmorpg. TTK needs to be increased and resource management needs to matter again. PVP is no longer about skill and managing your resources and creating build balance, it's all about combos, procs, luck, crit, cheesy builds, whatever... I'm pretty sure a lot more players will be able to provide more input here with regards to specific details, this is just the tip of the iceberg really.

Thank you for reading this post.

@Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler

arkansas_ESO

LegendaryMage wrote: »

- Pet sorcs are ridiculously stronger than non-pet sorcs. Competent summoners are destroying classic mag sorcs in a laughable way. This is not due to pets, it's most likely due to sets and combos such as trainee/necropotence/mage mundus/destruction mastery etc. 50k+ magicka pools are a bit too much to deal with. If you want a closer to 60k magicka pool, go and get your emperorship.

I never thought I'd see the day where pet sorcs were described as "strong." Stacking magic that high isn't a bad thing (or exclusive to pet sorcs), it's one of the few good things magicka actually has left. Let's not ask ZOS to take that away, too.

DHale

I want stam left where it is and magic given some love and attention. No nerfs, pvp ers don't agree on much but no one will deny. Since April 2014 not one single nerf has made this game funner or better.

Gilvoth

LegendaryMage wrote: »

I hope someone listens, and this doesn't fall on deaf ears, really...

- You have overbuffed stamina builds in general.

totaly false and wrong, there are multiple threads right now on this forum showing heavy proof that magicka builds are Way overpowered and soloing world veteran bosses and vet dungeons and bragging about solo pvp of themselves SOLO verses groups of people in cryodiil.
magicka was allways more powerfull than stamina even in early beta 2013 [which i was a part of] and it is still that same way even today.
this forum is filled with proof of it in video for as well as other people commenting about how powerfull magicka is, there is even a thread bragging that he has 5700 magicka damage. stamina does not have any of that.
i know for a fact people are going to pull whats biblicly called a "james and brandes" on my post.

what does a "james and brandus post" mean? it means that those 2 people were caught stealing money that was meant for an offering plate, and no matter what was said to them they refused to acknowledge the truth that they stole that money.
the same thing happens here on this forum,
no matter what is said to you magicka builds you allways complain that it is stamina that is overpowered and most certainly not you. but that is simply a lie and this forum has mass amounts of threads and videos that prove you magicka builds are most assuredly the ones whom are over powered.

Gothren

pet sorcs are stronger than non-pet sorcs? umm no. fyi you can reach the same magicka levels with non pet sorcs because you have other high magicka skills such as bound aegis and magelight. pet sorcs cannot afford to slot those.

Minalan

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

- Pet sorcs are ridiculously stronger than non-pet sorcs. Competent summoners are destroying classic mag sorcs in a laughable way. This is not due to pets, it's most likely due to sets and combos such as trainee/necropotence/mage mundus/destruction mastery etc. 50k+ magicka pools are a bit too much to deal with. If you want a closer to 60k magicka pool, go and get your emperorship.

I never thought I'd see the day where pet sorcs were described as "strong." Stacking magic that high isn't a bad thing (or exclusive to pet sorcs), it's one of the few good things magicka actually has left. Let's not ask ZOS to take that away, too.

I'm with you. Pet sorcs? Too strong? Did I step into a different game?

Anyone can use destro mastery and at least four piece necropotence. You know what's better though? Any set pieces with utility. Guardian monster set. Seducer. Spinner. Lich. Julianos.

Pet sorcs still die because they have like two skills per bar outside of pets and toggles. (Mage light, pet, aegis, all double barred) Their dumb as sin pets walk into your mines and sit there picking their daedric noses. They have to bar swap like mad to shield, streak, or to get to half of their two or three attacks. Their combos are weapon-swap clumsy, and they're lucky if they can afford to slot an execute.

When they fix the double bar issue on aegis and pets, I'll run one myself.

kwisatz

LegendaryMage wrote: »

- You have introduced too many high damage chance based proc sets, that when combined, are doing ridiculous amounts of damage, bursting almost anyone unlucky enough to be on the receiving end of it. Monster ones, regular ones etc. Only counter is to play a really tanky setup yourself, otherwise your number is up on the next cooldown probably.

That.

Alucardo

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

- Pet sorcs are ridiculously stronger than non-pet sorcs. Competent summoners are destroying classic mag sorcs in a laughable way. This is not due to pets, it's most likely due to sets and combos such as trainee/necropotence/mage mundus/destruction mastery etc. 50k+ magicka pools are a bit too much to deal with. If you want a closer to 60k magicka pool, go and get your emperorship.

I never thought I'd see the day where pet sorcs were described as "strong." Stacking magic that high isn't a bad thing (or exclusive to pet sorcs), it's one of the few good things magicka actually has left. Let's not ask ZOS to take that away, too.

He probably doesn't want them nerfed, just to make a pet sorc to be as strong as a non-pet sorc probably. Thing is, he's right. Pet sorcs are the only type of mag sorcs I hate running into, because

1. They have higher shields
2. They have increased damage
3. It's hard to target them with freaking pets running around all over the place
4. They heave more healing than a regular sorc

They are a massive pain in the butt

kaithuzar

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

I hope someone listens, and this doesn't fall on deaf ears, really...

- You have overbuffed stamina builds in general.

totaly false and wrong, there are multiple threads right now on this forum showing heavy proof that magicka builds are Way overpowered and soloing world veteran bosses and vet dungeons and bragging about solo pvp of themselves SOLO verses groups of people in cryodiil.
magicka was allways more powerfull than stamina even in early beta 2013 [which i was a part of] and it is still that same way even today.
this forum is filled with proof of it in video for as well as other people commenting about how powerfull magicka is, there is even a thread bragging that he has 5700 magicka damage. stamina does not have any of that.
i know for a fact people are going to pull whats biblicly called a "james and brandes" on my post.

what does a "james and brandus post" mean? it means that those 2 people were caught stealing money that was meant for an offering plate, and no matter what was said to them they refused to acknowledge the truth that they stole that money.
the same thing happens here on this forum,
no matter what is said to you magicka builds you allways complain that it is stamina that is overpowered and most certainly not you. but that is simply a lie and this forum has mass amounts of threads and videos that prove you magicka builds are most assuredly the ones whom are over powered.

You're confused & that's incorrect information.
Magic builds might be soloing normal versions of dungeons but there is no benefit to soloing a veteran dungeon it takes entirely too long. Regardless this is PVE content you were talking about in a PVP thread. Soloing a PVE boss cannot at all be compared to fighting a proc based stamina build!
The people that are bragging are idiots and most of them don't even know how to play the game let alone spell PVP.
If your claim to fame is citing liars trolls and random instigators as reliable sources for magic being overpowered you have much bigger problems.
Magic builds might have been powerful back in the day but that time has come and gone I suggest you try playing the game in order to learn how the situation really is.

Rohamad_Ali

Double proc bugs have broke PvP completely . The proc suits themselves are just unbalanced and some of Us can live with that until a balance patch but broken and doubling up is an emergency fix situation . No reason to PvP with those bugs . That's a game breaker for me .

Soon as I left Cyrodiil tonight my blood pressure went down tremendously .

Cogo

PvP is dead. Only dumb duels and 1v1 junk.

No more glorious battles with 100s players all around.

arkansas_ESO

Alucardo wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

- Pet sorcs are ridiculously stronger than non-pet sorcs. Competent summoners are destroying classic mag sorcs in a laughable way. This is not due to pets, it's most likely due to sets and combos such as trainee/necropotence/mage mundus/destruction mastery etc. 50k+ magicka pools are a bit too much to deal with. If you want a closer to 60k magicka pool, go and get your emperorship.

I never thought I'd see the day where pet sorcs were described as "strong." Stacking magic that high isn't a bad thing (or exclusive to pet sorcs), it's one of the few good things magicka actually has left. Let's not ask ZOS to take that away, too.

He probably doesn't want them nerfed, just to make a pet sorc to be as strong as a non-pet sorc probably. Thing is, he's right. Pet sorcs are the only type of mag sorcs I hate running into, because

1. They have higher shields
2. They have increased damage
3. It's hard to target them with freaking pets running around all over the place
4. They heave more healing than a regular sorc

They are a massive pain in the butt

I hate to say it, but L2P. Tab target the sorc if you have to, slot some AOE (Infernal Guardian and Grothdarr are perfect for this, Inhale, jabs, etc etc), focus the twilight (it's usually their only heal) and then when it's dead keep bashing the sorc so he can't resummon it.

arkansas_ESO

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

I hope someone listens, and this doesn't fall on deaf ears, really...

- You have overbuffed stamina builds in general.

totaly false and wrong, there are multiple threads right now on this forum showing heavy proof that magicka builds are Way overpowered and soloing world veteran bosses and vet dungeons and bragging about solo pvp of themselves SOLO verses groups of people in cryodiil.
magicka was allways more powerfull than stamina even in early beta 2013 [which i was a part of] and it is still that same way even today.
this forum is filled with proof of it in video for as well as other people commenting about how powerfull magicka is, there is even a thread bragging that he has 5700 magicka damage. stamina does not have any of that.
i know for a fact people are going to pull whats biblicly called a "james and brandes" on my post.

what does a "james and brandus post" mean? it means that those 2 people were caught stealing money that was meant for an offering plate, and no matter what was said to them they refused to acknowledge the truth that they stole that money.
the same thing happens here on this forum,
no matter what is said to you magicka builds you allways complain that it is stamina that is overpowered and most certainly not you. but that is simply a lie and this forum has mass amounts of threads and videos that prove you magicka builds are most assuredly the ones whom are over powered.

Are you talking to us from 2014? Are you playing a different game?

Seriously, slot 2 Tremorscale, 5 Black Rose/Fury, 5 Viper. Grab potions that give Major Vitality (30% increased healing, stacks with Major Mending) and poisons that increase your target's magic and stamina costs. Congratulations! You've won ESO!

Alucardo

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

- Pet sorcs are ridiculously stronger than non-pet sorcs. Competent summoners are destroying classic mag sorcs in a laughable way. This is not due to pets, it's most likely due to sets and combos such as trainee/necropotence/mage mundus/destruction mastery etc. 50k+ magicka pools are a bit too much to deal with. If you want a closer to 60k magicka pool, go and get your emperorship.

I never thought I'd see the day where pet sorcs were described as "strong." Stacking magic that high isn't a bad thing (or exclusive to pet sorcs), it's one of the few good things magicka actually has left. Let's not ask ZOS to take that away, too.

He probably doesn't want them nerfed, just to make a pet sorc to be as strong as a non-pet sorc probably. Thing is, he's right. Pet sorcs are the only type of mag sorcs I hate running into, because

1. They have higher shields
2. They have increased damage
3. It's hard to target them with freaking pets running around all over the place
4. They heave more healing than a regular sorc

They are a massive pain in the butt

I hate to say it, but L2P. Tab target the sorc if you have to, slot some AOE (Infernal Guardian and Grothdarr are perfect for this, Inhale, jabs, etc etc), focus the twilight (it's usually their only heal) and then when it's dead keep bashing the sorc so he can't resummon it.

Eh? What does L2P have to do with us stating they are stronger? Never once did I say "Hurr I can't kill a pet sorc"

Mayrael

Tbh I got used to that its skills matters the most. Right now whts matters is what skills are triggering sets. Proc sets needs to be toned down by a lot. How you can compare 8% cost reduction to 7k dmg (tooltip values) every 4s? Lets lower the chance or lower the effect on all proc sets. 5 and 2 piece. I remember the days when skills was the only thing that was killing us. Was it rly so bad so now skills are just a way to trigger sets and poisons? I miss the times when you had to choose between being tanky or bursty. I miss the times when we complained about things like BE, Scales or dodge roll. Eh...

incite

I agree with almost everything he says, he kinda sums up what has been going through my head the past weeks

I hope zos actknowledge some of these points and adjust where possible

BurritoESO

Agree with everything

thankyourat

The snares are roots make the game so unresponsive. If you get more than one guy spamming gap closers on you good luck trying to kite anything. What's worse than everything though are these ball groups with these heal bots it's so ridiculous that you can be beating on someone but one bol will counter all your damage. Healing is way too forgiving in this game you should be punished for misplaying like not blocking a meteor not healed right back up to full.

frozywozy

I disagree about templars being too tanky in general. I made a new unique and templar build this patch running 5pc soulshine 5pc rattlecage 2pc skoria 5-1-1 heavy with proper traits all gold out. I can get my spell dmg up to 4k while still maintaining spell and physical resistances cap with 2.5k crit resist. Any well played stam class using tremor + viper combo s&b weaving can destroy me really quickly.

Until the multi proc sets are addressed, I don't think that templar survivability is a problem. And trust me, I made this templar in the first time to demonstrate how broken they are and how ridiculously easy it is to play one. But not defensively. Offensively. Radiant Destruction needs to be addressed.

Darnathian

LegendaryMage wrote: »

I hope someone listens, and this doesn't fall on deaf ears, really...

- You have overbuffed stamina builds in general.

- You have introduced too many high damage chance based proc sets, that when combined, are doing ridiculous amounts of damage, bursting almost anyone unlucky enough to be on the receiving end of it. Monster ones, regular ones etc. Only counter is to play a really tanky setup yourself, otherwise your number is up on the next cooldown probably.

- You have favored stamina builds in the champion system. Unchained is much better than foresight for example. Balance the cp system and make it more equal.

- You have overbuffed heavy armor with sets such as blackrose. Tone it down, there are no resource problems in heavy armor while the damage potential is there also.

- Pet sorcs are ridiculously stronger than non-pet sorcs. Competent summoners are destroying classic mag sorcs in a laughable way. This is not due to pets, it's most likely due to sets and combos such as trainee/necropotence/mage mundus/destruction mastery etc. 50k+ magicka pools are a bit too much to deal with. If you want a closer to 60k magicka pool, go and get your emperorship.

- Heavy armor magicka templars purge and heal a bit too much while being extremely tanky and with the ability to block for prolonged periods of time. Sets such as malubeth aren't helping while fighting these. Since I mentioned malubeth, there's no reason why this set should grant an additional 30% healing, it should just give minor/major buff instead.

- Potions such as vitality, immovable, detection, are a bit too strong. They need to be toned down so that classic ones such as tri-stat have more appeal.

- Poisons such as resource draining ones last for too long. Cut down the duration significantly.

- Change armor skills so that you can only use them if you wear 5 or more pieces of that same armor type.

- Crowd control is out of control. Snares, stuns, immobilizations, traps etc etc etc are totally out of control nowadays, regardless of whether you're using counters or not. It's almost as if it doesn't matter whether you're using them or not.

As of now, PVP feels more like a first person shooter instead of an mmorpg. TTK needs to be increased and resource management needs to matter again. PVP is no longer about skill and managing your resources and creating build balance, it's all about combos, procs, luck, crit, cheesy builds, whatever... I'm pretty sure a lot more players will be able to provide more input here with regards to specific details, this is just the tip of the iceberg really.

Thank you for reading this post.

@Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Agree with most. But lol at contradicting yourself. You say that the only counter to the proc meta is being tanky. But then say a Templar purges healz and blocks too much. lulz. ty

Kas

Alucardo wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

- Pet sorcs are ridiculously stronger than non-pet sorcs. Competent summoners are destroying classic mag sorcs in a laughable way. This is not due to pets, it's most likely due to sets and combos such as trainee/necropotence/mage mundus/destruction mastery etc. 50k+ magicka pools are a bit too much to deal with. If you want a closer to 60k magicka pool, go and get your emperorship.

I never thought I'd see the day where pet sorcs were described as "strong." Stacking magic that high isn't a bad thing (or exclusive to pet sorcs), it's one of the few good things magicka actually has left. Let's not ask ZOS to take that away, too.

He probably doesn't want them nerfed, just to make a pet sorc to be as strong as a non-pet sorc probably. Thing is, he's right. Pet sorcs are the only type of mag sorcs I hate running into, because

1. They have higher shields
2. They have increased damage
3. It's hard to target them with freaking pets running around all over the place
4. They heave more healing than a regular sorc

They are a massive pain in the butt

i'd rather say:
1) they are very strong in duel-like situations, in particular against non-templars (purging curse and jabs/sweeps vs pet is still very string) and especially against other sorcs and mag nb's
2) they are still a freaking nightmare to play outside duels (or luckily found 1v1's (or 1v2's etc)). pet control is terrible, a pet getting LoS'd makes your want to attack your own pet for how stupid it is. pet builds can't really zergsurf, pet builds can't even try to lure 1-3 players aways from the enemy zerg because of pet movement. pet builds aren't great in groups (sure matri heal is nice, but if you really needed it, you can be sure the matri has just melted in 1-2 destro ults - even if set to passive)

if anything: buff pet sorcs and maybe nerf for for duels / 1v1's.

Minalan

Well now we have LegendaryMage amongst the vast majority not having fun with PVP this patch.

Nice post Alex. The only point we don't agree on is the pet Sorc.

Gothren

he doesn't realize you can get higher magicka levels than non pet sorcs and still have higher damage levels. pet builds still have major issues such as long recast times and suboptimal health. clearly a l2p issue here.

Cathexis

I could be wrong but I am increasingly finding that stam builds being better than mag builds is not entirely accurate. I am finding it has more to do with long ranged builds vs close range builds. Stamina builds just tend to be more close ranged, but I have seen many successful close range mag builds. I think that the game does tend to favour close range fighting, but to some degree that makes a lot of sense.

Minalan

Cathexis wrote: »

I could be wrong but I am increasingly finding that stam builds being better than mag builds is not entirely accurate. I am finding it has more to do with long ranged builds vs close range builds. Stamina builds just tend to be more close ranged, but I have seen many successful close range mag builds. I think that the game does tend to favour close range fighting, but to some degree that makes a lot of sense.

With gap closer spam, EVERYTHING is close range for a stam build.

Let's please stop pretending that ranged/magicka gets all of these free hits on a poor melee character that can't reach them.

One button press. There. And then three animation cancelled attacks, two procs and a tremorscale land instantly all at once. GG.

Ankael07

Did they even acknowledge the 1 shot procs issue? As far as I know even when viper+veli+widow was an issue they didnt tone anything down and added even more high damage proc sets with update 12. Theyve fixed a bug where viper's damage was mitigated by spell resistance and now it hits even more whereas the bug that makes viper's proc on poison and disease weapon enchantment is still in the game.
All of this gives me the impression that nothing will change with next big update. Best scenario we'll get slightly defensive buffs to magicka and light armor skills.

ScruffyWhiskers

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

magicka was allways more powerfull than stamina even in early beta 2013 [which i was a part of] and it is still that same way even today.

Sorry but it doesn't really make sense to talk about stamina vs. magicka prior to the soft cap removal and the retooling of the class skills and morphs to stamina. You might have liked to focus on weapon skills and thought they were not up to snuff vs. the class skills but you were not really a stamina player. We were all hybrids.

Rohamad_Ali

Stam sorcs staking procs and shields is definitely a L2P issue. I need to learn how to survive double Selene and double vipers. I am so bad someone please teach me the way lol.

RinaldoGandolphi

A proper pet build Sorc is literally unbeatable by any other class 1v1.

There used to be two really good Sorcs that used to play on PC NA The Arcanus, and he had a friend he ran with by the name SuperMad.

Long story short even back in the day when pets were weak SuperMad literally killed everyone in the Legends Dueling guild folks HATED the guy back in the day.

If SuperMad had the sets, set buffs, and CP System and such now there would probably only be 3-4 people on PC NA that would even stand a chance of killing him
alone

Pets Sorcs are only weak in the hands of a player who don't know how to use them and not good at micro managing...The Greater Storm Atro got a ninja buff this patch, he will stand and beat his chest like the NPC Atros do and do a mega ton of AOE damage to anyone standing close...combine two pets, huge Greatet Atro for LOS on tap, big Maw of The Infernal running around breathing fire like a Crematorial Guard...in the hands of someone like SuperBad who knows how to manage pets...would probably never beat him in
today's huge resource pools.

Pet Sorcs have a much higher skill ceiling to play..but are the most powerful...Scribes touched on this briefly with his build video...Power Overload hits like a freight train with 50k Magicka...the pets do just enough to be a distraction while the pet sorc shields and bolts to recast pets and opens up opportunity to 2 shot you with Overload...it's another spin on the Overload pioneer by Ezareth...pets and 50k max Magicka with Power Overload is the new sword and board Overload it just takes more practice to master....I may have to start practicing lol I dabbled with pets but my micromanaging skills suck..I'm gonna have to work on that...SuperMad needs to come back after running into him you would never look at pet sorc the same way again...

Waffennacht

Seriously, leave Pet builds alone. It's been a really long, hard road for us.

Kas

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

A proper pet build Sorc is literally unbeatable by any other class 1v1.

There used to be two really good Sorcs that used to play on PC NA The Arcanus, and he had a friend he ran with by the name SuperMad.

Long story short even back in the day when pets were weak SuperMad literally killed everyone in the Legends Dueling guild folks HATED the guy back in the day.

If SuperMad had the sets, set buffs, and CP System and such now there would probably only be 3-4 people on PC NA that would even stand a chance of killing him
alone

Pets Sorcs are only weak in the hands of a player who don't know how to use them and not good at micro managing...The Greater Storm Atro got a ninja buff this patch, he will stand and beat his chest like the NPC Atros do and do a mega ton of AOE damage to anyone standing close...combine two pets, huge Greatet Atro for LOS on tap, big Maw of The Infernal running around breathing fire like a Crematorial Guard...in the hands of someone like SuperBad who knows how to manage pets...would probably never beat him in
today's huge resource pools.

Pet Sorcs have a much higher skill ceiling to play..but are the most powerful...Scribes touched on this briefly with his build video...Power Overload hits like a freight train with 50k Magicka...the pets do just enough to be a distraction while the pet sorc shields and bolts to recast pets and opens up opportunity to 2 shot you with Overload...it's another spin on the Overload pioneer by Ezareth...pets and 50k max Magicka with Power Overload is the new sword and board Overload it just takes more practice to master....I may have to start practicing lol I dabbled with pets but my micromanaging skills suck..I'm gonna have to work on that...SuperMad needs to come back after running into him you would never look at pet sorc the same way again...

i can guarantee you, even if you reach "beast" level in duels, taking a pet build into open-world pvp still makes you want to pull your hair out. micro managing in 1v3 etc is very hard, and has the high skill ceiling you describe, but absolutely possible to do (wrecking larger numbers of noob is ofc always possible). However even moderate slopes can completely ruin pet AI, kiting around a single tree can completely ruin pets, any situtation with more players (e.g. a 6v6 between experience players) renders pets close to useless.

The low mobility, non-doding, stupid pets just lose so much of their use once battles get bigger. that's also why they are insanely strong in 1v1.