Why do people hate tanks in PVP

MalakithAlamahdi

Baconlad wrote: »

Proper tanking requires that the tank be doing something for the group, for example a high health high mag regen DK should be spamming talons, the longer he can hold out the more talons get spammed! For blazing tanks their purpose is to divert the attention of the enemy raid so that allies can focus targets, blazing tanks do this by becoming the absolute most threatening thing on the field. Many groups like to say they aren't stupid enough to target the blazing tank but the truth is, even the most organized raids end up hitting the tank long enough to get one or even two shield pops before realizing he's a shield plar, by that time the shield tank has already done enough damage to equal roughly two proxy sets...from one toon in two seconds. Blazing tanks in a raid ball for enemy raid to not stack on top of the shieldplars raid, forcing good raids to spread out, allowing the shieldplars buddies to focus down a single target instead of just AOE spamming the raid. Most primary target being the healers...soo we have role, its a damn good one, and its not easy to play properly...

Also when us blazing tanks are running solo or zerg surfing uncoordinated, we are just out right TROLLS, and happily claim the title

I actually wanted to make a shieldplar but never really got to figure out what sets to use. I've been trying to stack as much hp and magicka regen as possible. Do you perhaps have a tip or two for it? Always seemed like a fun thing to do against zergs.

LegendaryMage

Alucardo wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Because they cannot one-shot you with 1 button . That is why . Continue playing tank and spread the hate and cancer !

I play a DK tank also . It is insanely useful in PvP but that is not the main reason of having fun . It is the hate whispers and duel invitations .

Sometimes , I throw myself between my buddies and enemy so I can take the damage . One day , this dude seriously reported me and my friend because he thought I was using Surprise Attack and my NB friend was using Volatile Armor . *salt intensifies*

You must *** people off . If you are getting hate whispers , then it means you are a good tank .

I don't actually enjoy the hate whispers, and although I've only been playing tank for a week now I was wanting to stop it was getting so bad. I still got rage tells on my DPS, but no where near as many as I'm getting now.
It's sad, because out of all my builds, this is the one I'm enjoying the most, and feel it's the most effective especially when it comes to small group play.
Maybe I'll just stick with it and start reporting people if it gets any worse. I don't mind getting called a noob, but some of the other stuff is completely off the charts.

I'm sorry but I just can't resist. I remember you giving me a lot of crap some months ago along with your lowlife bully colleagues. Why are you complaining now? Enjoy the hate, feels good huh?

Alucardo

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Because they cannot one-shot you with 1 button . That is why . Continue playing tank and spread the hate and cancer !

I play a DK tank also . It is insanely useful in PvP but that is not the main reason of having fun . It is the hate whispers and duel invitations .

Sometimes , I throw myself between my buddies and enemy so I can take the damage . One day , this dude seriously reported me and my friend because he thought I was using Surprise Attack and my NB friend was using Volatile Armor . *salt intensifies*

You must *** people off . If you are getting hate whispers , then it means you are a good tank .

I don't actually enjoy the hate whispers, and although I've only been playing tank for a week now I was wanting to stop it was getting so bad. I still got rage tells on my DPS, but no where near as many as I'm getting now.
It's sad, because out of all my builds, this is the one I'm enjoying the most, and feel it's the most effective especially when it comes to small group play.
Maybe I'll just stick with it and start reporting people if it gets any worse. I don't mind getting called a noob, but some of the other stuff is completely off the charts.

I'm sorry but I just can't resist. I remember you giving me a lot of crap some months ago along with your lowlife bully colleagues. Why are you complaining now? Enjoy the hate, feels good huh?

Eh?

Alucardo

jhharvest wrote: »

People hate tanks in PVP because they're boring to play against.

I don't mind the tanks who deal moderate damage, have moderate heals and eventually run out of resources and die when they're being hit by 3+ players for an extended time (and I mean an extended time, I don't mean 10-30 seconds). I don't like the tanks who can heal back to full with the push of a button, who weave in and out of batswarm and mist and can take being walloped on by a fire ballista and 5+ players indefinitely, and if ignored, turn around and drop meteors on you when you start sieging.

Are they good tanks? Yeah, they are. Is it bad game design? Yes, it is, in my opinion. I know I can build to counter those guys and you can't indefinitely tank against people who have set their gear / skills / poisons to counter you. But I can't change gear in combat, can't really even slot things on the quickslots in combat half the time with the spastic inventory scrolling. It just results in a very boring gameplay experience.

I think the problem is that currently it's just possible to build too extreme; ganking builds that blow you up from stealth in under 2 seconds, tanks that don't die, etc. The cap on healing, mitigation, damage and regen is too high. I honestly just wish that the game discouraged tryharding and encouraged fun, interesting builds that are unique and fluffy and made of rainbows and butterflies. ...

I'm happy to report that Honor the Dead heals me for a massive 2.2k non-crit. My stam builds vigor ticks higher than my templars heal.

Docmandu

Alucardo wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

I don't hate tanks in PvP. Just hate Blazing Shield builds. That ability needs a major nerf. Being able to 10k+ damage to all players in a Radius bigger than Steel Tornado while having 65k is no way balanced. Especially since they usually also have Guard on a nearby DD.

I play in TF, the largest campaign on EU and I very rarely see Blazing Shield builds there. You have to give up a fair bit to run one of those and they are very specific. They're really useful to have in a team though.

There's actually a couple of Blazing Shields temps running around on TF/EU... it's funny since people can't seem to grasp that they're no issue at all if you don't go in melee range, but most of the time you see people pile onto those guys and kill themselves.
Can't see it being much fun after a couple of play sessions though, but seems some people enjoy the troll playstyle.

Alucardo

Docmandu wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

I don't hate tanks in PvP. Just hate Blazing Shield builds. That ability needs a major nerf. Being able to 10k+ damage to all players in a Radius bigger than Steel Tornado while having 65k is no way balanced. Especially since they usually also have Guard on a nearby DD.

I play in TF, the largest campaign on EU and I very rarely see Blazing Shield builds there. You have to give up a fair bit to run one of those and they are very specific. They're really useful to have in a team though.

There's actually a couple of Blazing Shields temps running around on TF/EU... it's funny since people can't seem to grasp that they're no issue at all if you don't go in melee range, but most of the time you see people pile onto those guys and kill themselves.
Can't see it being much fun after a couple of play sessions though, but seems some people enjoy the troll playstyle.

Yeah a few organised groups will know how to take one down. People who know me won't bother attacking if they have any less than 3 people, so it can get a little dull sometimes. Can't say I blame them - they probably have better things to do than beating on a tank for 10-15 minutes.
I still find it rather fun, and it has really helped turn the tides of larger fights. I usually log my tank after being beat on by every stam nightblade running viper and velidreth/eternal hunt. It's a direct counter to them kind of bursty builds, which is a blessing when you're playing magicka.

Kas

reasons to get many hate whispers:

1) you have a name that's easy to type.
2) you're recognized a lot. e.g. becaue people fight your for a longer time. also possible, because you're in their death recaps

i don't think a particular playstyle is causing more hate. the above reasons are usually enough to get hate whispers en masse. changes are, your tank is very visible becuase he stands for a long time. people that just love to flame anybody anyway, will always whisper you, provided they can type your name

Ashamray

I dislike those bricks which lies on my road doing nothing effectively and being unkillable. It's stupid.

Alucardo

Ashamray wrote: »

I dislike those bricks which lies on my road doing nothing effectively and being unkillable. It's stupid.

Not sure if you missed the comments above, but tanks can be useful. I also said I dislike the ones that just stand there holding block offering nothing.

Swainburg

I see tanking as more sustain and bring able to take on multiple people at once without dying. The kicker is with the recent heavy armor changes, you can kill them all too after a significant beating.

On my dragonknight tank, i wear black rose, fury, and bloodspawn. I've tested it fully procced and i have had up to 4500 weapon damage... On a tank (2 weapon damage glyphs on jewelry and 1 on sword). This is kinda insane but you have to be able to take it first.

This is why I like "tanking". I dislike the literal unkillables (full tank templars) because they need friends to kill someone. I totally understand how it would be awesome in a mindset where you play with friends, but thats partially the reason I dislike it. I just dislike the zerg mindset and I am addicted to solo pvp.

Lexxypwns

susmitds wrote: »

I don't hate tanks in PvP. Just hate Blazing Shield builds. That ability needs a major nerf. Being able to 10k+ damage to all players in a Radius bigger than Steel Tornado while having 65k is no way balanced. Especially since they usually also have Guard on a nearby DD.

Blazing shield templars are hard countered by ranged damage and very susceptible to stamina drain, CC them on cooldown

Taleof2Cities

Liofa wrote: »

Because they cannot one-shot you with 1 button . That is why . Continue playing tank and spread the hate and cancer !

I play a DK tank also . It is insanely useful in PvP but that is not the main reason of having fun . It is the hate whispers and duel invitations .

Sometimes , I throw myself between my buddies and enemy so I can take the damage . One day , this dude seriously reported me and my friend because he thought I was using Surprise Attack and my NB friend was using Volatile Armor . *salt intensifies*

You must *** people off . If you are getting hate whispers , then it means you are a good tank .

^This.^


On my Templar dedicated healer I never ever got hate whispers.

Now, on my magicka DK, I started getting hate whispers ... and this character is still only Level 40 ...

Hopefully, you're not feeling lonely, @Alucardo ...

Escorpiao_Noturno

I used to receive few compliments before.
And a little hate tells.

[img][/img]

Dasovaruilos

Haha... I understand the hate, but know some, like me, really admire how certain players just won't die.

Yesterday on HADERUS XBOX NA me (a low lever beginner PVPer) and 3 more 531CP chased a DK tank from one keep to another. It was a good 7-10 minutes of hitting him while he painfully walked from the failed attack back to his keep.

He just blocked all the time, and his health never really got below 40% to be Jesus Beamed. He never seemed to ran out of stamina, he couldn't be knocked out, stunned...

I'm sure the other players hated him, badly.

I deeply admired his patience and knowledge of how to play his class and role.

He took 4 of us, 3 very high level players, out of the fight fot a long stretch of time.

If there is a definition of support, that is it!

OldGamerESO

On a related note, you could create a chat tab which suppresses all communication except your group. Then you would not see their hate speech.

Does anyone know if there are addon's that let you white list your game mail? So you can set it so people not in a guild or in your alliance can send you in-game mail?

SwaminoNowlino

A lot of people just assuming tank hatred is from people not being able to one-shot...

There are really three kinds of tanks in PVP. One is a good addition to combat and should be supported by all players, the second is more annoying but works within the confines of the game (may or may not be broken), the third is the most irritating and are generally the ones that good players rage about.

Lets start with the first. This tank is well built and balances survival with group utility. They excel at staying alive while providing support to their group. See @FENGRUSH's youtube for his Dragon Disruptor build for a good example of this. No decent player should have a problem with this type of build, as it is generally built for small group play and requires skillful gameplay. Several other guys have good builds like this, I've just tried Fengrush's which is why its fresh in my mind.

The second type is the Black Rose DD that people like to rage about. May or may not be broken depending on who you ask. The important thing about this is that its not going to make a bad player suddenly good or anything, but it will even out the gaps in player ability. Make up your own mind.

Then there is the third type of PVP tank, that I feel justifies the rage. The 100% health tank. The caveat to this is the blazing shield build. But the 100% health tank is the guy who runs out on the battlefield and provides exactly nothing in terms of battle. They don't have the resources to provide group utility, their only role is to stay alive until their zerg gets there. They do no damage, don't cc or debuff enemies, and don't generate utility ultimate. Just giant blobs of health. The rage from these is they generally are not skillful players (seriously there are folks who run 100% health and health recovery and don't even have the stam for more than 1 cc break). In my experience these are the ones people get angriest at. Most folks have just learned to ignore them as they pose no threat, which is the problem.

If you are on the battlefield you should be providing some substance to the battle, I shouldn't just want to ignore you. The type one tanks need to be dealt with quickly because they can change the tide of battles almost single-handedly. Type 2 is just a DD in heavy armor. The type 3 poses no threat and can safely be ignored. Be a type 1 or 2.

Or you can just rage against elitism and glass cannons and ignore the details of PVP tanking.

There is also a 4th class of tank that I want eradicated from the game in every fashion. This tank is the 100% health tank templar who isn't even good enough to run sun shield, but spam jesus beam on everyone. People with 60k+ health who can still hit 10k plus RD. RAGE!!!!!!!!!

Curtdogg47

Tanks are great to have in a group. Both PVE and PVP. In PVP if your tank leads the charge into battle its amazing how people will swarm to attack him. While they are distracted your group can pick everyone else off. I love playing with great tanks.

I hate when I waste big my opening shot on a tank. Nothing is more depressing than launching a fully buffed up snipe, only to hit a tank and see nearly no movement on the health bar!!! Then see all his squishy buddies come swarming after me!!!

tplink3r1

Because i should be able to one shot you with my 5k weapon damage easy mode build.

Maole1989

Curtdogg47 wrote: »

Tanks are great to have in a group. Both PVE and PVP. In PVP if your tank leads the charge into battle its amazing how people will swarm to attack him. While they are distracted your group can pick everyone else off. I love playing with great tanks.

I agree. Tanks are really useful in PVP and I'm glad we are no longer an endangered species in Cyrodiil.

I know everyone has their own opinion on what makes a good tank, but for me if a tank can simply get the enemy to focus them instead of their allies then they're a good tank.

My logic being:
1) In essence a tank (regardless of builds) should be able to take the punishment so that their allies don't need to, subsequently freeing them up to do their own jobs.
2) The more enemies focused on the tank means the less enemies focused on the rest of the group.

If a tank can't do that then that's what makes them bad imo. If a tank brings something extra (ie buffs, debuffs, cc, heals, purge, guard, etc) to the table than just gaining the enemies attention, in my books that makes them a great tank. A good tank allows its allies to DO their jobs. A great tank allows its allies to EXCEL at their jobs.

Feel free to disagree or share your opinion, this is just mine.

nlevesque3

Maole1989 wrote: »

Curtdogg47 wrote: »

Tanks are great to have in a group. Both PVE and PVP. In PVP if your tank leads the charge into battle its amazing how people will swarm to attack him. While they are distracted your group can pick everyone else off. I love playing with great tanks.

I agree. Tanks are really useful in PVP and I'm glad we are no longer an endangered species in Cyrodiil.

I know everyone has their own opinion on what makes a good tank, but for me if a tank can simply get the enemy to focus them instead of their allies then they're a good tank.

My logic being:
1) In essence a tank (regardless of builds) should be able to take the punishment so that their allies don't need to, subsequently freeing them up to do their own jobs.
2) The more enemies focused on the tank means the less enemies focused on the rest of the group.

If a tank can't do that then that's what makes them bad imo. If a tank brings something extra (ie buffs, debuffs, cc, heals, purge, guard, etc) to the table than just gaining the enemies attention, in my books that makes them a great tank. A good tank allows its allies to DO their jobs. A great tank allows its allies to EXCEL at their jobs.

Feel free to disagree or share your opinion, this is just mine.

Thanks for sharing your opinion - I think you've captured the root of the role - very simply get the enemy to focus on them instead of their allies. Every single attack that hits a tank is an attack that doesn't hit a squishy ally.

Anything else is icing on the cake - if a tank can spread thin enemy healing balls, or do enough single-target damage to help finish off enemies, or support other players with defensive/offensive boosts, then they can be more effective in groups (but not necessarily more effective solo - tank dueling is fun too)

vamp_emily

My baby tank was fighting another tank yesterday. He couldn't kill me nor could I kill him. However, I did enjoy taking flight on him and making him fall off the wall then watching him come back so I could do it again.

Well we got to a point where we knew it was just a waste of time, so he sat down and I was about to sit down but his friends came over and killed me.

The best part of the fight was, as I was laying there dead the tank whispered me and said "I like you"

Alucardo

vamp_emily wrote: »

My baby tank was fighting another tank yesterday. He couldn't kill me nor could I kill him. However, I did enjoy taking flight on him and making him fall off the wall then watching him come back so I could do it again.

Well we got to a point where we knew it was just a waste of time, so he sat down and I was about to sit down but his friends came over and killed me.

The best part of the fight was, as I was laying there dead the tank whispered me and said "I like you"

Is that tank love I see blossoming? =D

Cathexis

I build for tank in pvp these days specifically because it can (sometimes) lead to long drawn out fights that require timing and playing strategically rather than just mashing buttons to win. I dont really consider this 5+v1, focus fire with no counter, uncounterably high dps nonsense to be legitimate pvp. (Im surprised there are even any actual players at this point and someone hasnt just started multiboxing 10 templar bots that spam critrush and heals)

Unfortunately, the game has also shifted away from the use of skills and mobility as a potential source of strategic play. In an even match endurance fights have largely been reduced to who can healbot the longest running the best counter gear sets (as a sidenote this would be fine except then you have certain classes DESIGNED for healbotting which presents a clear uneven footing)

I think there is a place for both high dps play styles and tank play styles in pvp. But I think that there has to be a way to bridge the interaction between these play styles so that one is not excessively dominant over the other. I think this has been a problem since the removal of soft caps and split between stamina and magicka builds, and it has been bandaid fixed by saying "oh well an anti meta build x can take out meta build y" but that doesnt solve the problem for the individual player fighting in that moment, and it reduces the game to who has what gear or the most gold.

nlevesque3 wrote: »

Maole1989 wrote: »

Curtdogg47 wrote: »

Tanks are great to have in a group. Both PVE and PVP. In PVP if your tank leads the charge into battle its amazing how people will swarm to attack him. While they are distracted your group can pick everyone else off. I love playing with great tanks.

I agree. Tanks are really useful in PVP and I'm glad we are no longer an endangered species in Cyrodiil.

I know everyone has their own opinion on what makes a good tank, but for me if a tank can simply get the enemy to focus them instead of their allies then they're a good tank.

My logic being:
1) In essence a tank (regardless of builds) should be able to take the punishment so that their allies don't need to, subsequently freeing them up to do their own jobs.
2) The more enemies focused on the tank means the less enemies focused on the rest of the group.

If a tank can't do that then that's what makes them bad imo. If a tank brings something extra (ie buffs, debuffs, cc, heals, purge, guard, etc) to the table than just gaining the enemies attention, in my books that makes them a great tank. A good tank allows its allies to DO their jobs. A great tank allows its allies to EXCEL at their jobs.

Feel free to disagree or share your opinion, this is just mine.

Thanks for sharing your opinion - I think you've captured the root of the role - very simply get the enemy to focus on them instead of their allies. Every single attack that hits a tank is an attack that doesn't hit a squishy ally.

Anything else is icing on the cake - if a tank can spread thin enemy healing balls, or do enough single-target damage to help finish off enemies, or support other players with defensive/offensive boosts, then they can be more effective in groups (but not necessarily more effective solo - tank dueling is fun too)

I agree that in the current state of tanking a pure tank dedicated to that role assists by being a damage soaking attention grabber who may have secondary functions. In that regard I think there is a lot of room for creatively expanding the skills and abilities of tanks. I think guard was a nice attempt with interesting results. I think a big piece of what has deminished tanks im this game is that physical placement of players in this game does not play a particularly significant role. AoE and players lack collision, so it deminishes your capacity to throw yourself on the bomb as a tank.

Baconlad

man, there is alot of templar shieldplar hate in here...i don't understand why some people get so angry. its also funny to see one poster claim that a shieldplar health blob can be safely ignored...lol...

i fel like the poster has never accually come across a good shieldplar. an inexperienced one doesnt fully understand his role, or what he should be doing, not much different than a player playing a new build for the first couple of weeks, he's kinda bad at it untill he fully understands what he needs to be doing WHen he needs to do it.

i like tanking, i've played a templar tank on and off at least 75% of my time in this game since game launch...i know how to play a tank, i know what my strengths are, i know what my enemies weaknesses are. very rarely do i get a group of players that i miss estimate on what they will do, therefore, you cannot just "range me down" unless you have rediculous numbers. i place my self in situations that force you to be close. i single out your healers so that they feel pressured and burn through resources, i DO CC those healer on cooldown if i can. when playing in my small man, i provide purge casting on breaches or sieges, i provide minor crit damage buffs on war horn, i provide cambat prayer so when i can, i jump head first into a zerf so that the immediate focus is on ME and not my TEAM, i provide AMAZING AOE damage in situations where i hide amongst my team and targetting gets hard. many players hit me quite a bit in these situations, even if they do not WANT to hit me...they HAVE TO.

above all...i PUNISH YOU for hitting me, and just when you think you've figured me out, i PUNISH you for NOT hitting me. any who knows me in-game and has gone against me or seen me in action, knows what i can do, i'm damn good at it. don't underestimate a shieldplar just because you have not come across one of the greats of trollplaring. and don't cry on the forums claiming we are Broken when we are not. we build for a reason, our reason may not be defined, but we're here to stay. watch out, we blow up

Baconlad

oh and by the way, if i come across one single person whos trying to attack me? yeah i'll troll him, and laugh after a minute goes by and he hasnt touched my health when his has gone down to 50% or worse in one shield blow. i don't care about these fights, i'm not build to last against one player, two players, three players or four. i'm build to provide support for my team, to win a campaign, and run in 8 man teams of *** you kick ass.

don't get mad at me for your failures to kill me XD.

jhharvest

@Baconlad You seem like a real nice guy. No wonder everyone loves tanks in PVP.

timidobserver

Escorpiao_Noturno wrote: »

I used to receive few compliments before.
And a little hate tells.

[img][/img]

There is... so ...much... name and shame in the screenshot. I have saved it for after they make you remove it.

nlevesque3

Reading this thread has convinced me that the truly great players don't post on the forums much :P

Baconlad

@jhharvest ......XD yeah i get hyped up somtimes. have a hard time getting my thoughts out of my brain and into the screen. i am a nice guy i promise. just don't like being called a bad player because i choose to build a tank!...i got tired of the DPS race in PVP and PVE, so i created a tank. and i became the best damn tank i could in my early days. not trying to say by any means that tanking is as hard as DPS, or that it's easier than DPS. just that i wish more players could recognize the role of tanking in PVP, and the micro roles of the different tanks in PVP.

for example, it's my understanding that blazing tanks are not very good VS trials. but are amazing in pledges. even then there are some gold key instances that we cannot complete because of the the way to absorb and deal AOE damage. so certain pledges are better to be done by non blazing templars. not much different in PVP, i cannot compete in 1v1. in 1vX situations, it still hard, because i'm build to support, and when i don't have the players i'm supposed to be supporting, i suffer. in XvX play, i perform great...thats what i'm built for!

not trying to offend anyone here, but i am trying to get my perspective out there. GL, see you all on the field

Unsent.Soul

jhharvest wrote: »

@Baconlad You seem like a real nice guy. No wonder everyone loves tanks in PVP.

I'd say @Baconlad is extremely helpful and nice. I've learned a few things from this guru.