The problem with proc sets in general

Kas

They're balanced around their internal cooldown and compared in a PvE setting.
In PvP, where you don't continuously attack but spend actions/time for self defence, positioning, and utility, they get a lot stronger compared to other sources of damage.
The threat of proc-induced burst is just the icing on the cake.

I would really prefer sensible balancing around a proc chance (in the past, e.g. very early skoria, the problem often was over-stacking these sources and wonky mechanics, e.g. almost everything a dot). But at least something like this transfers properly between PvE and PvP (unlike current viper / veldi).

Czirne

I think Viper is kinda "ok". its 5 piece set, works only meele, and you loose some stats by using it.
Problem is with velidreth and some upcomming sets (selene) - Big burst comming from 2 piece is too much.
If they really want proc on hit sets in game, it really should be only 5 piece sets. People would have to choose - do i wanna use overperforming black rose set, or do i wanna have insane burst with on hit sets?
In current state of game, people take black rose, velitreth, and viper(3x jewelery + S&B) and have it all. Thats serious issue that kills skill in pvp and has basicly no counterplay (unless you running in around cyrodil holding block permanently in case someone gank you from crouch and burst you down with those sets xD )

Kas

Czirne wrote: »

I think Viper is kinda "ok". its 5 piece set, works only meele, and you loose some stats by using it.
Problem is with velidreth and some upcomming sets (selene) - Big burst comming from 2 piece is too much.
If they really want proc on hit sets in game, it really should be only 5 piece sets. People would have to choose - do i wanna use overperforming black rose set, or do i wanna have insane burst with on hit sets?
In current state of game, people take black rose, velitreth, and viper(3x jewelery + S&B) and have it all. Thats serious issue that kills skill in pvp and has basicly no counterplay (unless you running in around cyrodil holding block permanently in case someone gank you from crouch and burst you down with those sets xD )

no, it's not. viper was/is a viable (not 100% perfect, but the better alternatives involve minor slayer anyway) addition to tbs and msa weapons on stamina PvE DDs where you constantly attacked - sure you cannot fully compared it to, say, hundings because hundings has no jewelry, but it's in the same overall category at least. In PvP the 4sec cooldown is almost like no cooldown at all (maybe unless you go for a dedicated burst phase). It's just an insane amount of damage. You no longer sacrifice overall damage (compares to pure weapon damage setups for example) for some proc-burst, you actually gain both, burst and raw dps in a typical fight. sure, it's not totally game-breaking but with a proc chance (instead of 100% + cooldown) that would result in a proc every 4sec in a PvE setting, it'd be much better balanced in PvP as well. Same goes for velidreth which already has a proc chance but 20% on every damage is insanely high and teh set is also essentially capped by it's cooldown, not by the chance

olsborg

Velidreth and Selene gonna be even more cancer for pvp, they are too strong. If everyone uses something it needs looked at, as it is now, 50% of stamina builds I fight are using veli and just as often viper too.

Czirne

Kas wrote: »

no, it's not. viper was/is a viable (not 100% perfect, but the better alternatives involve minor slayer anyway) addition to tbs and msa weapons on stamina PvE DDs where you constantly attacked - sure you cannot fully compared it to, say, hundings because hundings has no jewelry, but it's in the same overall category at least. In PvP the 4sec cooldown is almost like no cooldown at all (maybe unless you go for a dedicated burst phase). It's just an insane amount of damage. You no longer sacrifice overall damage (compares to pure weapon damage setups for example) for some proc-burst, you actually gain both, burst and raw dps in a typical fight. sure, it's not totally game-breaking but with a proc chance (instead of 100% + cooldown) that would result in a proc every 4sec in a PvE setting, it'd be much better balanced in PvP as well. Same goes for velidreth which already has a proc chance but 20% on every damage is insanely high and teh set is also essentially capped by it's cooldown, not by the chance

I see your point. When i think about it, you are right. 4 sec cooldown is next to nothing in pvp with people dodging, LoSing and moving in general. From PvP perspective, proc sets should not be in game, especialy in "skill based game". ESO is slowly becaming gear based game. That makes me sad.

Mayrael

COPY/PASTE from my thread in General disc.:

Sucha situation (unfortunetly i dont record my gameplay so I need to descibe it). EU Truflame. I was messing arround Alleswel Keep resources (Im AD), killed mobs and was burning the flag. Sudenly some DC guy shows up so I rush him, Curse, Crushing Shock, Frags, Crushing - hes down #easy_kill (Im not sure he even noticed that flag is burning). Sudenly some magblade starts to spam swallow soul on me. Hardened, curse, crushing, frags. He uses healing ward and dampen - hes mine. More presure on him, he panics and jumps on me to prolly fear me. Not very smart as I stand in the middle of minefield covered with volcanic rune. He dies before he touches ground again. Again someone jumps on me, this time 2 of them - crit rush and dizzy to my face, magplar beams me. My arse is saved by habbit of recasting shield every few seconds, my health drops to 30%. Im breaking free, healing ward, hardened, curse on magplar (he stars to beam me again), frags proc (evil leaugh in my head) and 11k crit followed by 8k curse crit (gods are loving me), crushing to finish him (this is so pleasant feeling to kill beam spammer). Now the stam melee (didnt noticed.what class he was as the only he did was crit rush and dizzy so im not surprised he died fast), nothing special here either. Im starting to hear voice from Unreal Tournament "Killing spree!" and then this happends:

[here will be ss as Im on my phone now but Ill describe it]
I have eat Focused Aim 10k crit from stealth... With almost 2k poison damage... With 3k viper sting... With 7k Widowmaker crit. So basicaly after fighting off four guys I was one shoted by RNG sets.... Balance my arse ZOS -_- Yeah my health pool isnt big since im pure glass canon but this? Same is melee combo with Velidreth and Viper.

RNG sets that deal damage should have global cool down so they cannt % all at the same time! It could be even 2-3s, right now its total madness.

Oh and never forget:
#nerf_malubeth (yeah I have magplar to but dont use this set as its broken as frack)

LycanNaryko

Mayrael wrote: »

COPY/PASTE from my thread in General disc.:

My arse is saved by habbit of recasting shield every few seconds, my health drops to 30%. Im breaking free, healing ward, hardened, curse on magplar (he stars to beam me again), frags proc (evil leaugh in my head) and 11k crit followed by 8k curse crit (gods are loving me), crushing to finish him (this is so pleasant feeling to kill beam spammer). Now the stam melee (didnt noticed.what class he was as the only he did was crit rush and dizzy so im not surprised he died fast), nothing special here either. Im starting to hear voice from Unreal Tournament "Killing spree!" and then this happends:

[here will be ss as Im on my phone now but Ill describe it]
I have eat Focused Aim 10k crit from stealth... With almost 2k poison damage... With 3k viper sting... With 7k Widowmaker crit. So basicaly after fighting off four guys I was one shoted by RNG sets.... Balance my arse ZOS -_- Yeah my health pool isnt big since im pure glass canon but this? Same is melee combo with Velidreth and Viper.

RNG sets that deal damage should have global cool down so they cannt % all at the same time! It could be even 2-3s, right now its total madness.

The difference to a RNG Skill is exactly what? You wrote gods are loving me - it was RNG on your side just like the Set with a 20% proc chance. He was lucky - he was just a glass cannon like you.

The everything i do is skill and all others that burst me down dont have skill and use no skill tactics mentality is the most annoying thing in ESO.

ManDraKE

Kas wrote: »

no, it's not. viper was/is a viable (not 100% perfect, but the better alternatives involve minor slayer anyway) addition to tbs and msa weapons on stamina PvE DDs where you constantly attacked - sure you cannot fully compared it to, say, hundings because hundings has no jewelry, but it's in the same overall category at least. In PvP the 4sec cooldown is almost like no cooldown at all (maybe unless you go for a dedicated burst phase). It's just an insane amount of damage. You no longer sacrifice overall damage (compares to pure weapon damage setups for example) for some proc-burst, you actually gain both, burst and raw dps in a typical fight. sure, it's not totally game-breaking but with a proc chance (instead of 100% + cooldown) that would result in a proc every 4sec in a PvE setting, it'd be much better balanced in PvP as well. Same goes for velidreth which already has a proc chance but 20% on every damage is insanely high and teh set is also essentially capped by it's cooldown, not by the chance

Viper is a 5 piece set, so for PvP builds in general, you will be running something like this:

- 3 viper jewerly + 2 viper weapons
. need DW or 1H&s
. you need to drop vMA/Master weapons.
. drop agility jewerly (that is 3 pieces set that is stronger than 4 pieces bonus normal set)

- or 3 viper jewerly + 2 body pieces.
. In a classic build using 5 pieces body set, you probably need to drop the monster set (or vMA weapons again if you go with weapons to pair with the body set)
. you need to drop agility

(There are other small variants, but they are pretty much the same, almost nobody will run more than 2 pieces in the body because there is no impen viper.)

As you can see, you loss a lot: max stam, max weapon damage, less healing, less impen, and effects from vMa weapons/monset sets, in order to access the viper proc. Viper is indeed very strong, but it should be, nobody is going to drop all those stats for a crappy proc.
If viper is overpowered, then agility + 2 monster mask is also overpowered because compared to the alternatives, is way better. Just because viper is better in SOME builds (compared to the classic 3 agility + 2 monster + vma weapons), it dosn't mean that is OP, it means that there is more build diversity.

Kas

ManDraKE wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

no, it's not. viper was/is a viable (not 100% perfect, but the better alternatives involve minor slayer anyway) addition to tbs and msa weapons on stamina PvE DDs where you constantly attacked - sure you cannot fully compared it to, say, hundings because hundings has no jewelry, but it's in the same overall category at least. In PvP the 4sec cooldown is almost like no cooldown at all (maybe unless you go for a dedicated burst phase). It's just an insane amount of damage. You no longer sacrifice overall damage (compares to pure weapon damage setups for example) for some proc-burst, you actually gain both, burst and raw dps in a typical fight. sure, it's not totally game-breaking but with a proc chance (instead of 100% + cooldown) that would result in a proc every 4sec in a PvE setting, it'd be much better balanced in PvP as well. Same goes for velidreth which already has a proc chance but 20% on every damage is insanely high and teh set is also essentially capped by it's cooldown, not by the chance

Viper is a 5 piece set, so for PvP builds in general, you will be running something like this:

- 3 viper jewerly + 2 viper weapons
. need DW or 1H&s
. you need to drop vMA/Master weapons.
. drop agility jewerly (that is 3 pieces set that is stronger than 4 pieces bonus normal set)

- or 3 viper jewerly + 2 body pieces.
. In a classic build using 5 pieces body set, you probably need to drop the monster set (or vMA weapons again if you go with weapons to pair with the body set)
. you need to drop agility

(There are other small variants, but they are pretty much the same, almost nobody will run more than 2 pieces in the body because there is no impen viper.)

As you can see, you loss a lot: max stam, max weapon damage, less healing, less impen, and effects from vMa weapons/monset sets, in order to access the viper proc. Viper is indeed very strong, but it should be, nobody is going to drop all those stats for a crappy proc.
If viper is overpowered, then agility + 2 monster mask is also overpowered because compared to the alternatives, is way better. Just because viper is better in SOME builds (compared to the classic 3 agility + 2 monster + vma weapons), it dosn't mean that is OP, it means that there is more build diversity.

msa weapons are not viable for pvp unless you want to play with poisons (often frowned upon, better Xv1 than 1vX, also relatively bad in group v X) or in oen of the few builds that actually use the ability altering enchats. the pure weapn/spell damge is outclassed by classic enchats and utility / direct damage enchats can be very strong as well

all that said, my initial point stands: if viper was able to beat something like agility+mephala or agility+skoria in pve builds (pre velidreth and for people who didn't have VO/alkosh yet), than it's safe to say that it will completely outclass those in pvp where the 4second timer is much better aligned with your actual attacking speed

Sandman929

I don't want my armor killing anything. I'd rather have sets that boost damage potential; potential that the player has to capitalize on rather than direct damage. High regens in short windows, boosted heavy/light damage, increased damage of specific skills even, things like that.
If you're killing with burst armor proc damage, you forfeit bragging rights IMO.

ManDraKE

Kas wrote: »

msa weapons are not viable for pvp unless you want to play with poisons (often frowned upon, better Xv1 than 1vX, also relatively bad in group v X) or in oen of the few builds that actually use the ability altering enchats. the pure weapn/spell damge is outclassed by classic enchats and utility / direct damage enchats can be very strong as well

all that said, my initial point stands: if viper was able to beat something like agility+mephala or agility+skoria in pve builds (pre velidreth and for people who didn't have VO/alkosh yet), than it's safe to say that it will completely outclass those in pvp where the 4second timer is much better aligned with your actual attacking speed

WHAT? lol, vMA weapons are BiS for 90% of the stamina builds, 2h+bow builds pretty much requires you to have a vMA 2h sharpened and a vMA/Master's bow, and DW dot builds are only viable with vMA daggers (stamdks and stamsorcs are running flurry builds a lot, the DPS is insane). The only kind of builds that don't have vMA as a BiS gear are 1h&s builds.

And your comparision with subpar PvE gear combinatio like agility+mephala is pointeless. If you are going to pull the PvE card, at least use actual BiS PvE gear for the comparision.

Kas

ManDraKE wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

msa weapons are not viable for pvp unless you want to play with poisons (often frowned upon, better Xv1 than 1vX, also relatively bad in group v X) or in oen of the few builds that actually use the ability altering enchats. the pure weapn/spell damge is outclassed by classic enchats and utility / direct damage enchats can be very strong as well

all that said, my initial point stands: if viper was able to beat something like agility+mephala or agility+skoria in pve builds (pre velidreth and for people who didn't have VO/alkosh yet), than it's safe to say that it will completely outclass those in pvp where the 4second timer is much better aligned with your actual attacking speed

WHAT? lol, vMA weapons are BiS for 90% of the stamina builds, 2h+bow builds pretty much requires you to have a vMA 2h sharpened and a vMA/Master's bow, and DW dot builds are only viable with vMA daggers (stamdks and stamsorcs are running flurry builds a lot, the DPS is insane). The only kind of builds that don't have vMA as a BiS gear are 1h&s builds.

And your comparision with subpar PvE gear combinatio like agility+mephala is pointeless. If you are going to pull the PvE card, at least use actual BiS PvE gear for the comparision.

UNLESS YOU USE POISONS:

If you're taking an msa bow in pvp over a dsa bow, everything is lost.
Even if you're using a dsa bow, a wd/sd glpyh is competitive (pros and cons for either) and so are other, completely underrated, glyphs. granted, psn injection + dsa bow is a decent combo.

if you want to use the 2hander charge buff, fine. personally i'm, once again, not a fan of it but that's something debatable. however for spamming wb/sa/jabs/execute/etc, it's worse than glyphs, especially if your extra possible set piece is not an unused one. even more so on dual wield bars where you can get two extra set piece slots instead of one and two glyphs.

msa weapons are great if you want to make use of their ability altering effect (i don't know where you find decent players with flurry in pvp, i don't think i've every had problems with one) or if you want to run poisons and get some juicy extra stats. if you don't, you can do better.

Using BiS PvE comparisons make no sense, since all of them involve minor slayer and viper is actually fairly close to any agi+2. There aren't too many alternatives with jewellery.

ManDraKE

Kas wrote: »

UNLESS YOU USE POISONS:

Even with poisons, vMA weapons are still BiS for most of the cases, because it provides a weapon damage bonus in a 1 piece item (that it dosn't get disabled when a posion is slotted), so is BiS for the meta 5 body + 2 monster + 3 agility meta for 2h/bow stam builds.
And flurry is really effective on PvP, specialy on duels, the amount of singletarget pressure is really high. Unless you are fighting a templar, DoTs build are really effective. Also posions are for ***

At this point is pretty obvious that you are talking about stam builds/gear, withouth actually knowing what is the meta for stam, and what is BiS.

Back to the original topic of the discussion: as i said in my first reply, Viper is really strong for some builds, but is not OP, you have to sacrifice a lot in order to use it, and most (if not all) viper's builds fall behind compared to the 5 BR +2 velidreth + 3 agility + vma weapons meta in open world. The only situation when Viper's can be overperforming, is in gank builds (i know this for a fact because i have 2 ganking builds with viper lol), but even in a gank build, there are other things i can use to replace Vipers and the build will still oneshoot most of the people.

Kas

lol, just lol. the poison msa weapon mechanic is exactly when i'm talking about. they are ONLY good when using poisons. but since you seem unable to comprehend anything, are you EU at any chance? let's duel. show me how you stand a chance with flurry and your msa 2hander... i'm fine with recording the results and posting here

Most_Awesome

Ambush>Block Cancel>Incap = Dead

Didn't even have a chance to cc break

ManDraKE

Kas wrote: »

lol, just lol. the poison msa weapon mechanic is exactly when i'm talking about. they are ONLY good when using poisons. but since you seem unable to comprehend anything, are you EU at any chance? let's duel. show me how you stand a chance with flurry and your msa 2hander... i'm fine with recording the results and posting here

no, im not from EU, and not i don't need to duel to prove you something. I could loss the duel in 3 seconds and still wouldn't mean nothing to the discussion itself, a *** measuring constest won't make your arguments right (and at this point, nothing will do, but feel free to try).

Cathexis

Czirne wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

no, it's not. viper was/is a viable (not 100% perfect, but the better alternatives involve minor slayer anyway) addition to tbs and msa weapons on stamina PvE DDs where you constantly attacked - sure you cannot fully compared it to, say, hundings because hundings has no jewelry, but it's in the same overall category at least. In PvP the 4sec cooldown is almost like no cooldown at all (maybe unless you go for a dedicated burst phase). It's just an insane amount of damage. You no longer sacrifice overall damage (compares to pure weapon damage setups for example) for some proc-burst, you actually gain both, burst and raw dps in a typical fight. sure, it's not totally game-breaking but with a proc chance (instead of 100% + cooldown) that would result in a proc every 4sec in a PvE setting, it'd be much better balanced in PvP as well. Same goes for velidreth which already has a proc chance but 20% on every damage is insanely high and teh set is also essentially capped by it's cooldown, not by the chance

I see your point. When i think about it, you are right. 4 sec cooldown is next to nothing in pvp with people dodging, LoSing and moving in general. From PvP perspective, proc sets should not be in game, especialy in "skill based game". ESO is slowly becaming gear based game. That makes me sad.

I would be fine with it becoming a gear based game if then gear didn't also cost 1000+ mats for a full set plus 68k+ per full piece upgrade. There has to be a better way.

Kas

ManDraKE wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

lol, just lol. the poison msa weapon mechanic is exactly when i'm talking about. they are ONLY good when using poisons. but since you seem unable to comprehend anything, are you EU at any chance? let's duel. show me how you stand a chance with flurry and your msa 2hander... i'm fine with recording the results and posting here

no, im not from EU, and not i don't need to duel to prove you something. I could loss the duel in 3 seconds and still wouldn't mean nothing to the discussion itself, a *** measuring constest won't make your arguments right (and at this point, nothing will do, but feel free to try).

it could prove your claim, that i don't know anything about stam pvp, incorrect.
i've played with msa weapons myself during TG and in the beginning of DB only to realize how strong updated glyphs are.

if it isn't the meta yet, it will become the meta: poison+msa (when against a single enemy) > msa/dsa for the effect (e.g. psn inject bow) > oldschool glyphs >>>>>>>> msa for the weapon damage. using the lousy msa enchant for weapon damage certainly should not make you drop sets like viper or velidreth.

your arguments are solely based on "because that is the way it is". no math/reasons to back it up, not willing to prove how your "knowledge" (lol) has impact on your performance in practice, no overall message except "i play with viper but it's not OP because (careful, hyperbole ahead) somewhere there are significant players who dominate duels with their rapid strikes build" ...

PS: I also use proc sets, I'm not stupid. I even farmed sharpend widowmaker weapons to use over viper in AoE fights, i own legendary viper jewellery, I use velidreth. I don't want to cry about those sets here, I just think there's something wrong with them (the proc evolving around cooldowns rather than proc chances) and I hope that this part will be adjusted and that the sets won't be nerfed useless (also for pve in case of velidreth and upcoming sets) in some other way.

skoria is designed much better. it's will also be very strong next patch but relying on dots and proc chance so heavily makes you have to adjust your build for it and gives others the chance to counteract by purging and/or moving out of walls etc. 20 or especially 100% chance to proc on any attack is just boring in comparison.

mtwiggz

Most_Awesome wrote: »

Ambush>Block Cancel>Incap = Dead

Didn't even have a chance to cc break

This is exactly the problem. A lot of players are even throwing Widowmaker in there, which is another 4-8k proc depending on defenses, etc.

If this setup was only viable on a gank build then it wouldn't be as much as a problem. As walking in Cyro you expect to be ganked at some point. Yet this build is completely viable in all aspects of PvP. Which goes more towards the argument of how easy it is to play stamina in the current meta.

Either way these proc sets need to be looked at. Combinations of sets like these completely go around any kind of balance. Negates any chance a player has of defending itself when someone can put out an instant 25-35k damage in ~1 second.

Erock25

Most_Awesome wrote: »

Ambush>Block Cancel>Incap = Dead

Didn't even have a chance to cc break

When *** like this happens, I just turn the game off. I will uninstall if I keep seeing hoarvor explosion on my death recap.

Mojomonkeyman

Most_Awesome wrote: »

Ambush>Block Cancel>Incap = Dead

Didn't even have a chance to cc break

That screeshot sums up the entire problem. We need it stickyed at combat lead dev`s computer monitor.

Ashamray

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Most_Awesome wrote: »

Ambush>Block Cancel>Incap = Dead

Didn't even have a chance to cc break

That screeshot sums up the entire problem. We need it stickyed at combat lead dev`s computer monitor.

The problem is guys with zero crit resistance.

Erock25

Ashamray wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Most_Awesome wrote: »

Ambush>Block Cancel>Incap = Dead

Didn't even have a chance to cc break

That screeshot sums up the entire problem. We need it stickyed at combat lead dev`s computer monitor.

The problem is guys with zero crit resistance.

I don't care if extra crit resistance would have caused that to be 10k total dmg from procs instead of 16k, it's still too much unavoidable proc dmg. Proc dmg is just the worst.

CapuchinSeven

Ashamray wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Most_Awesome wrote: »

Ambush>Block Cancel>Incap = Dead

Didn't even have a chance to cc break

That screeshot sums up the entire problem. We need it stickyed at combat lead dev`s computer monitor.

The problem is guys with zero crit resistance.

While this maybe true, that still doesn't justify the amount of damage which would have come some fast the attacker likely didn't even render from stealth before his target was dead.

Sandman929

If your armor kills things, it's not your kill.

ManDraKE

Kas wrote: »

your arguments are solely based on "because that is the way it is". no math/reasons to back it up, not willing to prove how your "knowledge" (lol) has impact on your performance in practice, no overall message except "i play with viper but it's not OP because (careful, hyperbole ahead) somewhere there are significant players who dominate duels with their rapid strikes build" ...

There is a diference beetwen what i said, and what you understand. I said viper is not OP because you have to sacrifice a lot to get that proc, and you just took once of the things that i said that you need to sacrifice (vMA weapons) and said that they are not good and you don't have to sacrifice anything. I explained pretty well in my first post the reasons behind my opinion, i didn't pulled out things out of my ass. 2h vma weapons are BiS, and daggers/axes are really powerful in dueling builds (just the empowered trap beast dot is insane). Maybe in EU those builds are not very popular, but for sure there are top duelers in NA using them and being super effective with them.

Oh, i almost forgot, today's patch notes:

Cruel Flurry (Maelstrom Dual Wield enchantment): Reduced this enchantment’s bonus to Weapon and Spell Damage on your next single-target damage over time ability to 2003 from 3096.

Now with this, MAYBE, you are right about daggers. But 2h still remains BiS.

Berenhir

Gonna quote myself, from the velidreth is op thread, as it fits perfect here.
Was about the comparison between a magnb ganker and a stamnb velidreth/viper proctard

Berenhir wrote: »

But concerning the topic you will have to admit that while you i]the MagNB[/i
a) sacrifice a ton of regen for your damage and
b) have to prepare every successful burst

an rng burst combatant (like Velidreth/Viper/Widowmaker) does not need to do either. His high damage sets proc with significant damage values just as long as he keeps hitting the opponent wether he has high weapon damage and low sustain or low weapon damage and high sustain or an average value for both. That means while you have to rely on a successful first attempt and an exit strategy (fear > cloak or shadow > cloak) this trade off does not exist for someone wearing velidreth and viper/widowmaker. They are rewarded for doing an initial burst from stealth (viper firing reliably, option on velidreth, poison and widowmaker) and are rewarded for staying in the fight as every moment rng can end the fight for them as long as they keep hitting the opponent. All they have to provide is a single target dps pressure and enough penetration, so nothing that isnt already built into any stamina build.

Actually its very much like a DoT Build. A DoT Build initiates the DoTs and provides the Debuffs while sustaining until the fight is over. A proc build provides the debuffs like armor pen or defile until the fight is over.
The problem is: DoTs due to their very nature can be anticipated and purged. Procs just proc. If they proc in the beginning you have all the benefits of a burst build withouth any of its disadvantages. If they proc later on, well, you have all the benefits of a DoT/sustained damage build without its disadvantages.

The_Duke

The problem with Veli is its currently a DLC only set. Which spurs the pay wall arguements. Do You want to be competitive in PVP? Buy this DLC

Most_Awesome wrote: »

Ambush>Block Cancel>Incap = Dead

Didn't even have a chance to cc break

I have an almost identical one to yours. I walked around a corner and I was Dead. Viper proc off of heavy bow posion injection incap and done. This was done with me having 30k hp. Had a few viper veli instant deaths as well. Good job zos. Lets take all the skill out of the game.

Derra

Czirne wrote: »

I think Viper is kinda "ok". its 5 piece set, works only meele, and you loose some stats by using it.
Problem is with velidreth and some upcomming sets (selene) - Big burst comming from 2 piece is too much.
If they really want proc on hit sets in game, it really should be only 5 piece sets. People would have to choose - do i wanna use overperforming black rose set, or do i wanna have insane burst with on hit sets?
In current state of game, people take black rose, velitreth, and viper(3x jewelery + S&B) and have it all. Thats serious issue that kills skill in pvp and has basicly no counterplay (unless you running in around cyrodil holding block permanently in case someone gank you from crouch and burst you down with those sets xD )

I think viper is actually the worst of all the procc sets followed by velidreth and widowmaker.

Viper outperforms them all because the procc is 100% controllable and not avoidable. If i could choose which set i want mirrored on a magica set it would be viper without hesitation.

PurifedBladez

ManDraKE wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

msa weapons are not viable for pvp unless you want to play with poisons (often frowned upon, better Xv1 than 1vX, also relatively bad in group v X) or in oen of the few builds that actually use the ability altering enchats. the pure weapn/spell damge is outclassed by classic enchats and utility / direct damage enchats can be very strong as well

all that said, my initial point stands: if viper was able to beat something like agility+mephala or agility+skoria in pve builds (pre velidreth and for people who didn't have VO/alkosh yet), than it's safe to say that it will completely outclass those in pvp where the 4second timer is much better aligned with your actual attacking speed

WHAT? lol, vMA weapons are BiS for 90% of the stamina builds, 2h+bow builds pretty much requires you to have a vMA 2h sharpened and a vMA/Master's bow, and DW dot builds are only viable with vMA daggers (stamdks and stamsorcs are running flurry builds a lot, the DPS is insane). The only kind of builds that don't have vMA as a BiS gear are 1h&s builds.

And your comparision with subpar PvE gear combinatio like agility+mephala is pointeless. If you are going to pull the PvE card, at least use actual BiS PvE gear for the comparision.

VMA weapons add 60 weapon damage to my build while losing out on the chance to proc my enchants and this is a stamina pvp 2h/bow build.

There's plenty of good dw builds without vma weapons.. like are you serious bro?

ManDraKE

PurifedBladez wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

msa weapons are not viable for pvp unless you want to play with poisons (often frowned upon, better Xv1 than 1vX, also relatively bad in group v X) or in oen of the few builds that actually use the ability altering enchats. the pure weapn/spell damge is outclassed by classic enchats and utility / direct damage enchats can be very strong as well

all that said, my initial point stands: if viper was able to beat something like agility+mephala or agility+skoria in pve builds (pre velidreth and for people who didn't have VO/alkosh yet), than it's safe to say that it will completely outclass those in pvp where the 4second timer is much better aligned with your actual attacking speed

WHAT? lol, vMA weapons are BiS for 90% of the stamina builds, 2h+bow builds pretty much requires you to have a vMA 2h sharpened and a vMA/Master's bow, and DW dot builds are only viable with vMA daggers (stamdks and stamsorcs are running flurry builds a lot, the DPS is insane). The only kind of builds that don't have vMA as a BiS gear are 1h&s builds.

And your comparision with subpar PvE gear combinatio like agility+mephala is pointeless. If you are going to pull the PvE card, at least use actual BiS PvE gear for the comparision.

VMA weapons add 60 weapon damage to my build while losing out on the chance to proc my enchants and this is a stamina pvp 2h/bow build.

There's plenty of good dw builds without vma weapons.. like are you serious bro?

you really don't know what vMA weapons are for right? try testing the damage of trap beast with vma 1h weapons....