Why ESO is getting worse patch, after patch, instead of better.(PvP)

ClassicIX

Coming from a PvP stand point.
This game takes less and less skill to play each patch. Zenimax nerfs roll dodge making medium armor builds useless, they broke shuffle and still have not removed the dodge chance all together, which we can all agree takes no skill to use this ability. They have yet to address sets like black rose, which at this point and time is the best set and no other set in the entire game can rival it.

They keep introducing sets that have similar functions as viper sting. They need to balance viper sting, veldrith, and the new monster helm selenes; these sets break pvp making it take little to no skill to play. When someone can hit you with a 3k gap closer but than proc a 4k+ viper and 7k+ it removes the challenge of landing you're hits. Zenimax patched this game to make it slower to kill players but with sets like these they made is easier to oneshot people from stealth or just off of normal attacks.

In conclusion balance black rose, viper sting, veldrith, and the new sets such as selenes visage. Until these sets get brought in line with every other sets there is not point in playing a magic class or even wearing medium as stam if black rose is all around better in every way. (yes this is rant, but it's a well deserved one that makes sense non the less.)

Smasherx74

I don't see PVP as direct 1 on 1 competition since the game is beyond "unplayable" for that specifically. The lag is just too much for me, freezing up entire seconds during a few attacks it's impossible. Sure I'll get a few kills, can apply dots and throw meteor but that's it. The best part of PVP for me is running zergs, especially pug ones. People will listen if you tell them what to do, and when you outsmart other random zone chatters or even some guilds it feels really satisfying. Especially since it's everyone else doing the real work while you just try to stay alive for support.

Dread_Guy

See, I think the problem is actually in the other direction. I think ZoS is leaving these cheese sets in because the only quick bursts DPS need to combat the unkillable builds.

I was fighting as a cancerous Templar (Blazing shield build with Malubeth, Black Rose, Fasalle's) and I went against an EP tower buster squad that consisted of 3 dragonknights and a similar templar as myself using guard with each other. Let me tell you, that was 20 straight minutes of futility going on between all of us. Its stupid these types of builds exist in the first place but I really dont see a solution without scrapping it and starting over. I doubt ZoS will do that

Armitas

PvP is starting to feel like Dungeons and Dragons where two people just roll dice against each other. This upcoming update is releasing a ton of new sets like pandoras box when we are still reeling from the last release. It gets worse and worse and worse, and they fail to hear us over and over and over and just do whatever was put on the calendar without a care in the world that part of their game is in flames.

They discovered that people don't play their game for longer than a month at a time and considered that a feature and started designing around it. Did it ever occur to them that maybe there is a good reason why people don't stick around? It reminds me of Kitchen Nightmares, no one thinks it's the food, but it's always the food. Have you tasted what you have been cooking? We sure have. Your content is fantastic, Your graphics are stellar, but your combat is dreadful and that is major portion of the game.

Forestd16b14_ESO

......Medium armor builds useless ? Black rose OP ? What game are you playing ?

Ffastyl

The shattered core of ESO's combat is resource management. When everyone, everyone runs out of resources at some point, OP builds become fodder. Most of the defense in this game is in active defenses: healing, shields, blocking and evading. Those all need resources to perform. When resources exhaust now -- if they exhaust -- they are replenished to full or near full in a matter of seconds. The strongest case of this is Dark Deal on Stamina Sorcerers. When resources take 20 seconds, 30 seconds or even 40 seconds to recover from exhaustion, several aspects of balance will fall into line. Sure, there are glass cannons and unkillable tanks, but run them out of resources (and some will run themselves out) and you have a sitting duck.

But ZOS puts buffs first in balancing. They "know how it feels to have your favorite ability or item nerfed," but we've passed a point where continued buffs destabilize the combat system further. Cost increasing poisons and resource draining mechanics are their latest endeavors to right this. But this only affects those specific PvE encounters and those players who use the poisons.


Every offense and every defense has a counter, mechanic or ability. Shields are susceptible to high damage, healing to healing reduction, armor to penetration, blocking to unblockable CC, evasion to DoTs, DoTs to purges and HoTs, CC to CC immunity, stealth to AoE, ranged to reflects, melee to CC, Mighty to Hardy, Thaumaturge to Thick Skinned, Elemental Expert to Elemental Defender, Piercing to Armor Focus, critical damage to critical resistance, but recovery to nothing and cost reduction to nothing. Yet these aspects are still unchecked, lacking an accessible or even extant counter.

olsborg

I agree about the stupidity of all the procced sets for pvp, like viper, velidreth and now more of them...

Rykmaar

Armitas wrote: »

PvP is starting to feel like Dungeons and Dragons where two people just roll dice against each other. This upcoming update is releasing a ton of new sets like pandoras box when we are still reeling from the last release. It gets worse and worse and worse, and they fail to hear us over and over and over and just do whatever was put on the calendar without a care in the world that part of their game is in flames.

They discovered that people don't play their game for longer than a month at a time and considered that a feature and started designing around it. Did it ever occur to them that maybe there is a good reason why people don't stick around? It reminds me of Kitchen Nightmares, no one thinks it's the food, but it's always the food. Have you tasted what you have been cooking? We sure have. Your content is fantastic, Your graphics are stellar, but your combat is dreadful and that is major portion of the game.

This point is so true @Armitas

Firor talked about their playerbase leaving and coming back as if it were a good thing. Here's a tip, that is not a good thing. The only think you have going for you, ZoS. Is a lack of competition. Once that changes, or once people get annoyed at your terrible design decisions, ESO's goose is cooked.

You can see where this game is going already. A largely social game that revolves around a cash shop.

What a disgrace for this IP.

AverageJo3Gam3r

Not sure I agree with you OP. The lag has gotten substantially better the last few patches. And this game is play your way. You want to run a blazing malubeth fasallas reactive Templar? Go ahead. You want to play a one shot from stealth build? Go ahead. Not everyone has to cater to your expectations of what combat "should" be.

juhasman

The simpliest answer to thread question is because there was no single patch focused on PvP only.

WeylandLabs

Lets take a look at balance in my opinion, and what i witnessed in the past year and a half.

Ok so the 1v1ers will have arena, the 1vxers will still go to cyrodill. The small group players will be in Cryodiil and the zergers will be in Cryodiil The pve players have the rest of the world of eso. And what does the i have no idea what im doing players want ?

What does the 1v1ers want ?
To showcase thier unique builds and skill in a fight.

What does the 1vXers want ? To showcase thier unique builds and skill against multiple enemys.

What does the group/trinity players want ? To win the campaign working together with builds.

What does the zergers want ? To gain Alliance points to get rank and precious gold items at the end of the campaign.

And what does pve players want ? To beat all objectives in a controlled environment.

What does the i have no idea what im doing player want ? All the above ...

Lets ask why are we upset about those builds and balance. Just ask yourself which player are you.

If you find yourself dying alot you might want to question your build skill and race thier is a counter to everything. It takes time and effort just to find it but its thier.

ku5h

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

......Medium armor builds useless ? Black rose OP ? What game are you playing ?

With questions like that, I wander what game are you playing! In Cyro this days only stam NB is still viable in medium armor. Everyone else is running either Heavy or Light, with much more ppl running Heavy. Having said that, Black Rose it the obvious choice. So, yea...

hrothbern

Ffastyl wrote: »

The shattered core of ESO's combat is resource management. When everyone, everyone runs out of resources at some point, OP builds become fodder. Most of the defense in this game is in active defenses: healing, shields, blocking and evading. Those all need resources to perform. When resources exhaust now -- if they exhaust -- they are replenished to full or near full in a matter of seconds. The strongest case of this is Dark Deal on Stamina Sorcerers. When resources take 20 seconds, 30 seconds or even 40 seconds to recover from exhaustion, several aspects of balance will fall into line. Sure, there are glass cannons and unkillable tanks, but run them out of resources (and some will run themselves out) and you have a sitting duck.

But ZOS puts buffs first in balancing. They "know how it feels to have your favorite ability or item nerfed," but we've passed a point where continued buffs destabilize the combat system further. Cost increasing poisons and resource draining mechanics are their latest endeavors to right this. But this only affects those specific PvE encounters and those players who use the poisons.


Every offense and every defense has a counter, mechanic or ability. Shields are susceptible to high damage, healing to healing reduction, armor to penetration, blocking to unblockable CC, evasion to DoTs, DoTs to purges and HoTs, CC to CC immunity, stealth to AoE, ranged to reflects, melee to CC, Mighty to Hardy, Thaumaturge to Thick Skinned, Elemental Expert to Elemental Defender, Piercing to Armor Focus, critical damage to critical resistance, but recovery to nothing and cost reduction to nothing. Yet these aspects are still unchecked, lacking an accessible or even extant counter.

Nice post on root-balancing

More or less repeating you in other words:
Without cooldown on abilities, the game has in priciple cooldowns on effects (proc delays) and limited resource recoveries and gains in order to "softcap" the spamming of abilities.
But the buffs on Resources sustain are at the moment stronger than also imo is healthy.
Generic buffs on Resource recoveries and gains are not well enough countered by (specific) debuffs like poisons.

Healing suffers imo from the same issue: many generic healing buff, few (and again specific) healing debuffs.

I think we need more debuffs, and more generic, on resources to get a better choice of counters.

Perhaps secondary effect procs can be used for this:
When for example Shock damage procs, generation Concussion, it could also generate a Magicka drain.
That principle could be applied to all kinds of resource gains and all kinds of secondary effects.
The drain would be a fixed amount or a % of the max stat and/or stat recovery.
The effect should BTW be much smaller than the Poison effect.
The weapon trait Charged would also become more usefull.

Xvorg

Ffastyl wrote: »

The shattered core of ESO's combat is resource management. When everyone, everyone runs out of resources at some point, OP builds become fodder. Most of the defense in this game is in active defenses: healing, shields, blocking and evading. Those all need resources to perform. When resources exhaust now -- if they exhaust -- they are replenished to full or near full in a matter of seconds. The strongest case of this is Dark Deal on Stamina Sorcerers. When resources take 20 seconds, 30 seconds or even 40 seconds to recover from exhaustion, several aspects of balance will fall into line. Sure, there are glass cannons and unkillable tanks, but run them out of resources (and some will run themselves out) and you have a sitting duck.

with poisons added, the resource management has become a short run between who fires his ravage stam poison first.

Skander

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

......Medium armor builds useless ? Black rose OP ? What game are you playing ?

This one, and you seem to be playing another.

LegacyDM

ClassicIX wrote: »

Coming from a PvP stand point.
This game takes less and less skill to play each patch. Zenimax nerfs roll dodge making medium armor builds useless

Huh? Medium armor is the strongest armor class by far. If anything light armor needs a buff or medium armor needs a Nerf. Useless?! Are you aware that stamina is the op meta right now?!

caeliusstarbreaker

Medium armor is useless?!? Dang it, now I gotta craft all new stuff.

Makkir

Theres a reason why everyone and his mother is WTB Vipers Sting in general chat...

This set and Vel. monster set is cancer to this game. The TTK is cancer. Stam class in general is cancer. All you turds who play stam are cancer.

texassob

Makkir wrote: »

Theres a reason why everyone and his mother is WTB Vipers Sting in general chat...

This set and Vel. monster set is cancer to this game. The TTK is cancer. Stam class in general is cancer. All you turds who play stam are cancer.

salty

CapuchinSeven

ClassicIX wrote: »

medium armor builds useless

lol what game are you even playing!?

CapuchinSeven

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

Not sure I agree with you OP. The lag has gotten substantially better the last few patches. And this game is play your way. You want to run a blazing malubeth fasallas reactive Templar? Go ahead. You want to play a one shot from stealth build? Go ahead. Not everyone has to cater to your expectations of what combat "should" be.

Sooo your idea of PVP is never dying or dying in one shot...

THEDKEXPERIENCE

"Less and less skill"

This cracks me up. What determines skill? The person who can hit buttons faster than the opponent? Or is it the person who is the best at 1vXing because they know where the cracks in the rock formations are? Or is it the PVEer who after running a dungeon 400 times knows that the best survival plan is to stand on a ledge the developers never remotely thought would affect the fight? Or is it the person who knows that they would never match some people in a fast twitch muscle competition so they've smartly built the most over powered build they can?

The only way to truly determine skill in this game is you're better at clearing content (or PVP opponents) faster and more efficiently than other people.

If you're dying because some meta has changed you need to adjust and I say it as someone who hates the current stamina dodge-dodge-auto dodge-dodge meta.

Sandman929

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

"Less and less skill"

This cracks me up. What determines skill? The person who can hit buttons faster than the opponent? Or is it the person who is the best at 1vXing because they know where the cracks in the rock formations are? Or is it the PVEer who after running a dungeon 400 times knows that the best survival plan is to stand on a ledge the developers never remotely thought would affect the fight? Or is it the person who knows that they would never match some people in a fast twitch muscle competition so they've smartly built the most over powered build they can?

The only way to truly determine skill in this game is you're better at clearing content (or PVP opponents) faster and more efficiently than other people.

If you're dying because some meta has changed you need to adjust and I say it as someone who hates the current stamina dodge-dodge-auto dodge-dodge meta.

Gotta disagree here, I think you meant "auto dodge-dodge-auto dodge-auto dodge-auto dodge-dodge-auto dodge meta".

Baconlad

this skill takes a ton of skill to play...i'm sorry, but i need to bring up "old" MMO's, where you learned a rotation, and learned where to stand...then won the fight. in those old games, PVP was not Much different but it was a bit more reactive than the PVE of those games. in ESO? the whole friggin game is reactive based, you see somthing happening, you react to it. you have to practice and learn how your enemies play, so that you can counter effectively. the way you fight a mag sorc is a bit different from fighting and stam dk.
i'm a templar, mostly magplar/ blazing shield tank/ heavy small team PVP healer. now i have tried stamina builds before, got all the "meta" gear golded out, and eventhough i wreck face on my magplar build...on my stamina build? i SUCK...even after two weeks of playing it, i die at the drop of a hat, sure i can kill ***, but i die REALLY fast when even 1v1 against a better player. my experience before the roll to stam was that stamina classes are broken AF OP. but after playing one for two weeks, i don't think they are quite as OP as initially thought, they are hard to play. magicka templar is easy when focused. hit mists, find cover, block, BOL, mists, LOS, mag potion, defensive buffs, and go offensive...for me dodge roll never worked...and shuffle doesnt seem to bless me

AverageJo3Gam3r

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

Not sure I agree with you OP. The lag has gotten substantially better the last few patches. And this game is play your way. You want to run a blazing malubeth fasallas reactive Templar? Go ahead. You want to play a one shot from stealth build? Go ahead. Not everyone has to cater to your expectations of what combat "should" be.

Sooo your idea of PVP is never dying or dying in one shot...

@CapuchinSeven that's just it...I don't have a preconceived idea of what PvP *should* be and expect everyone to play by my rules. I like tanky characters, so mostly play a sDK and mDK. I've been using black rose since IC dropped on both, before it was cool. I don't kill many people solo, but I also cannot remember a time I was one shotted by a V&V gank build. Do I get mad that a breath of life or vigor can out heal my damage? No, I'm not, because I don't expect others to not use those things. If I'm salty about it, I can reroll or change my build. But I don't expect others to change their playstyle.

CapuchinSeven

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

If you're dying because some meta has changed you need to adjust and I say it as someone who hates the current stamina dodge-dodge-auto dodge-dodge meta.

Or the game could just be going down a dumb path and some of us think it needs saying.

Rykmaar

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

Not sure I agree with you OP. The lag has gotten substantially better the last few patches. And this game is play your way. You want to run a blazing malubeth fasallas reactive Templar? Go ahead. You want to play a one shot from stealth build? Go ahead. Not everyone has to cater to your expectations of what combat "should" be.

Sooo your idea of PVP is never dying or dying in one shot...

Yeah no kidding. Going by CapSeven's logic. Everything that's OP is fine if people enjoy playing it. Balance be damned so long as that player with an OP setup is having fun.

CapuchinSeven

Rykmaar wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

Not sure I agree with you OP. The lag has gotten substantially better the last few patches. And this game is play your way. You want to run a blazing malubeth fasallas reactive Templar? Go ahead. You want to play a one shot from stealth build? Go ahead. Not everyone has to cater to your expectations of what combat "should" be.

Sooo your idea of PVP is never dying or dying in one shot...

Yeah no kidding. Going by CapSeven's logic. Everything that's OP is fine if people enjoy playing it. Balance be damned so long as that player with an OP setup is having fun.

Think you mean the other guy

WeylandLabs

Ok... I get what everyone is saying, let's look at the root of OP sets and having fun.

How do people find OP sets ? Obviously to have fun playing the game.

Skander

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

Ok... I get what everyone is saying, let's look at the root of OP sets and having fun.

How do people find OP sets ? Obviously to have fun playing the game.

To win, not to having fun.

WeylandLabs

Im sorry let me rephrase my question.

Where do people find or get OP sets ? And who tells them its OP ?