Suggestion for Dungeon Difficulty problems.

Metafae

There is a lot of talk about the nerfing of vICP and vWGT and I have an idea for what could be done to make most people happy.

It's simple really, keep veteran the same as it is on Live, right now it is at the most balanced difficulty, I can see myself being able to help a lot of my less experience guild members through the dungeon with the way it is right now, and help them get better at the game doing so.

For the people who can't get help to do veteran, the normal versions of these dungeons should be made to drop v16 gear and the monster helm, in blue and with slightly less frequency than they do in veteran right now.

The veteran modes should still be the only version that drop Daedric Shackles and Embers, and just bump up the drop rate of set items slightly to make it worth farming over the normal.

It should also be made that if a group completes the normal version of those dungeons for the pledge, they should just get a single gold key.

I feel that this is a good compromise and a lot of the players that enjoy tough content will not be annoyed with this change if it means that they can keep their dungeons challenging, and a good way to teach newer players how to get better with their characters, ultimately making more players who will be more helpful in things like vMaw and vSO.

I just don't see the point in not having a difficulty gradient in the game at all. It just doesn't make sense having trails that are insanely hard, and then the next step down from that is pretty much a joke in comparison. How are newer players supposed to get better if there is no way to make that leap from joke dungeons to intense trials?

emily3989

Your last question answered:

1. 90%+ of players in this game have no interest doing Trials (there is only 1 anyway, so why bother?)
2. The players they are listening / catering to have no interest in trying to get better - that is why they are crying for these dungeons to be easier in the first place, even though they all know they are actually beaten by many others)
3. Progression for ESO is an absolute joke. There is none, there is basically 4 different games (Solo pve, group pve, trial pve, and pvp). Being good/better at one does not translate to any of the others.

Metafae

I don't understand why people would want to finish the veteran mode and also not want to get better, if it's not to get the gear sets from those dungeons. If that's the case, I'd just plainly say no.

Why kill a group of peoples fun when they're not going to the dungeon more than once when it gets nerfed.

It makes sense to me that they would just want the gear, and if they don't want to get good, then make the normal drop the gear they want. Problem solved.

Destruent

Metafae wrote: »

There is a lot of talk about the nerfing of vICP and vWGT and I have an idea for what could be done to make most people happy.

It's simple really, keep veteran the same as it is on Live, right now it is at the most balanced difficulty, I can see myself being able to help a lot of my less experience guild members through the dungeon with the way it is right now, and help them get better at the game doing so.

Yes, please

Metafae wrote: »

For the people who can't get help to do veteran, the normal versions of these dungeons should be made to drop v16 gear and the monster helm, in blue and with slightly less frequency than they do in veteran right now.

Should work, but i'd rather let the bosses on normal drop trophies, so you can farm them and open the trophy-vaults for V16-gear. Boss should drop the helmet as you mentioned already.

Metafae wrote: »

It should also be made that if a group completes the normal version of those dungeons for the pledge, they should just get a single gold key.

They will reward you with a silver key since IC-Release...so nothing to change here.

code65536

What they really need is a third difficulty.

As much as I dislike the vICP/vWGT/vCoA nerfs, it is entirely understandable. I will happily PUG vet Spindle. But I will not PUG vICP.

And there is little indication that those dungeons are on a difficulty level of their own. Imagine a freshly-minted VR who is trying out vet dungeons for the first time. He does fine with the original six vet dungeons, and then sets foot in vCoA, which is undeniably a cut above the original vet dungeons in its difficulty.

Create a new Elite difficulty mode that share the exact same loot, achievements, etc. as Veteran, but with improved drop chances--a challenge for people who like challenges and a relief for people who grind the dungeons for drops (those two groups are often the same, too).

And for a number of pieces of content, there are just such ridiculous gaps in difficulty. nMoL vs. vMoL. Or nMA vs. vMA (even if wearing no armor/jewelry, nMA is still easier than vMA). There's basically very little for the game's sizeable "middle class" to sink their teeth into, and a third difficulty tier (nerf vMA and create a new Elite MA with the current vMA difficulty) will help tremendously.

Rune_Relic

code65536 wrote: »

What they really need is a third difficulty.

As much as I dislike the vICP/vWGT/vCoA nerfs, it is entirely understandable. I will happily PUG vet Spindle. But I will not PUG vICP.

And there is little indication that those dungeons are on a difficulty level of their own. Imagine a freshly-minted VR who is trying out vet dungeons for the first time. He does fine with the original six vet dungeons, and then sets foot in vCoA, which is undeniably a cut above the original vet dungeons in its difficulty.

Create a new Elite difficulty mode that share the exact same loot, achievements, etc. as Veteran, but with improved drop chances--a challenge for people who like challenges and a relief for people who grind the dungeons for drops (those two groups are often the same, too).

And for a number of pieces of content, there are just such ridiculous gaps in difficulty. nMoL vs. vMoL. Or nMA vs. vMA (even if wearing no armor/jewelry, nMA is still easier than vMA). There's basically very little for the game's sizeable "middle class" to sink their teeth into, and a third difficulty tier (nerf vMA and create a new Elite MA with the current vMA difficulty) will help tremendously.

I cant argue this. ^^
Training Mode (for learning the mechanics and feeding veteran mode)
Veteran Mode (for 90% of the playerbase. Challengning but not impossible. Definitely not Elite mode only. Hybrid level)
Benchmark Mode (cant be completed except by a miracle. Purely a teeth grinder to push you to limits and test different gear/skill/weapon/class combos. Drops on stages. Trinity level)

Then you cater for beginner, expert and everyone in between.
Bronze, silver and gold keys can then also be more appropriately issued and relevant.

Metafae

This is such a good idea. I just wasn't sure that something like a third tier of difficulty was on the cards.

Its something that should be definitely in the production line.

Destruent

Metafae wrote: »

This is such a good idea. I just wasn't sure that something like a third tier of difficulty was on the cards.

Its something that should be definitely in the production line.

If you look carefully, there is a third difficulty available:
- normal mode
- veteran mode
- veteran hard mode

People just refuse to do easier content bc they think they have to be able to do everything easily. As long as this doesn't change, there's no reason to add a new difficulty.

Metafae

Seems like rather than putting the book to read at the boss fight, they should really be putting a book right at the start of a veteran dungeon to activate elite mode. Still a veteran dungeon, but the whole thing becomes tougher.

code65536

Destruent wrote: »

Metafae wrote: »

This is such a good idea. I just wasn't sure that something like a third tier of difficulty was on the cards.

Its something that should be definitely in the production line.

If you look carefully, there is a third difficulty available:
- normal mode
- veteran mode
- veteran hard mode

People just refuse to do easier content bc they think they have to be able to do everything easily. As long as this doesn't change, there's no reason to add a new difficulty.

Uh, Vet HM isn't really a new difficulty level. It's applies only for the final boss. For vICP, HM isn't really much harder than normal. For vCoA, as long as you have the DPS to kill him in three platforms, HM is actually easier because his jumps are now predictable and no longer random. And there is no HM for vMA.

For content like vMA and vMoL, we need a third difficulty to cater to the vast numbers of people who are bored by normal but can't do vet.

For content like vet Darkshade, we need a third difficulty to cater to people roll through that dungeon in 10 minutes or who can solo it (and, lol, "hard mode" in Darkshade--not using the levers--is actually easier; the poison phase is the best phase, so why in bloody blazes would you want to pull that level and shorten that phase?).

Destruent

At release of IC hardmode was actually a lot harder than normal mode bc of the increased number of meteors. Now it's not that much different bc ZOS decreased the number of meteor significantly.
Don't get me wrong, i'd be happy about a third difficulty. But this will not change the fact that (at least it seems like) the worst players want to beat this and then cry for a nerf if they cannot beat it.

code65536

Destruent wrote: »

At release of IC hardmode was actually a lot harder than normal mode bc of the increased number of meteors. Now it's not that much different bc ZOS decreased the number of meteor significantly.
Don't get me wrong, i'd be happy about a third difficulty. But this will not change the fact that (at least it seems like) the worst players want to beat this and then cry for a nerf if they cannot beat it.

Not if Elite drops the exact same loot and gets the exact same achievements and rewards as Veteran. Tie the reward of doing Elite to something like doubled drop rates. And name it Insanity mode or Nightmare mode or whatever name that would properly convey, "enter at your own risk".

Destruent

code65536 wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

At release of IC hardmode was actually a lot harder than normal mode bc of the increased number of meteors. Now it's not that much different bc ZOS decreased the number of meteor significantly.
Don't get me wrong, i'd be happy about a third difficulty. But this will not change the fact that (at least it seems like) the worst players want to beat this and then cry for a nerf if they cannot beat it.

Not if Elite drops the exact same loot and gets the exact same achievements and rewards as Veteran. Tie the reward of doing Elite to something like doubled drop rates. And name it Insanity mode or Nightmare mode or whatever name that would properly convey, "enter at your own risk".

Sure, but as stated in another thread. You can get all sets from the IC dungeons at V16 without doing the vet-version on V16. So following your logic, there is no reason to nerf them.

code65536

Destruent wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

At release of IC hardmode was actually a lot harder than normal mode bc of the increased number of meteors. Now it's not that much different bc ZOS decreased the number of meteor significantly.
Don't get me wrong, i'd be happy about a third difficulty. But this will not change the fact that (at least it seems like) the worst players want to beat this and then cry for a nerf if they cannot beat it.

Not if Elite drops the exact same loot and gets the exact same achievements and rewards as Veteran. Tie the reward of doing Elite to something like doubled drop rates. And name it Insanity mode or Nightmare mode or whatever name that would properly convey, "enter at your own risk".

Sure, but as stated in another thread. You can get all sets from the IC dungeons at V16 without doing the vet-version on V16. So following your logic, there is no reason to nerf them.

Very slowly, though. The actual drops are still VR15, and the VR16 comes only from the shackles, which drop only from the final boss. Plus no helm. Plus only a silver key on pledge day. Plus different achievements and vet-only achievements.

Yes, if a third difficulty can't be made, then the 2nd best option would be to make normal more appealing. But right now, nICP just isn't very attractive.

The people who want vICP nerfed are (1) people who want the achievements, drops, gold keys, and other rewards (like the pet) and/or (2) people who have grown accustomed to "Veteran" difficulty meaning one thing in vDarkshade walking unprepared into vICP. An extra difficulty tier would allow them get more consistency in the difficulty of "Veteran" instances (so a new player who doesn't know that "Veteran" means very different things difficulty-wise depending on whether it's Wayrest, CoA, or MA isn't in for a rude surprise) and it would allow for the rewards to be more accessible, giving people less reason to cry for nerfs.

Destruent

code65536 wrote: »

Very slowly, though. The actual drops are still VR15, and the VR16 comes only from the shackles, which drop only from the final boss. Plus no helm. Plus only a silver key on pledge day. Plus different achievements and vet-only achievements.

You can farm the Vetversion on V1 to get the trophys and buy the helmet at the vendor in cyro and silver keys give the same loot as gold keys
And the achievements shouldn't be the reason to nef content....

code65536

Destruent wrote: »

You can farm the Vetversion on V1

Gonna be hard to find a VR1 after DB.

Destruent wrote: »

And the achievements shouldn't be the reason to nef content....

I agree. I personally like to feel that I achieved something, so I got my pet much later than some people because I had refused to scale down for the vICP no-death. But that's my personal opinion, and I don't want to impose that view on people who don't care about that and just want to get the pet or the costume or whatever. I don't agree with their view, but I understand it and am sympathetic to it.

Destruent

code65536 wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

You can farm the Vetversion on V1

Gonna be hard to find a VR1 after DB.

Sure, but everyone had one year to do this. And new players are able to scale those dungeons to V1 (CP10...) bc they are new.

Aeaeren

I am against making these easier. My group just started doing City of Ash and yes we struggle with it but we are starting to figure it out and finally managed to beat it. The last boss isn't as bad to us as the Ash Titan and that one boss with the billions of adds that keep coming and coming. We are starting to figure it out and while it is frustrating to no end when we do finish it I know I feel like I accomplished something. This one dungeon has made me start thinking about my skill layout, mundus stone, weapons, pretty much everything. These dungeons MAKE you improve in order to do them in a reasonable amount of time.