RIP SORC!

Jowrik

"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously. Decreasing the duration of all damage shields to 6 seconds means that they are just as powerful for stopping high amounts of burst damage. However, there is now less safety with the decreased duration and more skill is required to activate damage shields at the correct time. If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time."

Makes all kinds of sense to me, not sure what's the problem here.

Lord_Hev

Jowrik wrote: »

"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously. Decreasing the duration of all damage shields to 6 seconds means that they are just as powerful for stopping high amounts of burst damage. However, there is now less safety with the decreased duration and more skill is required to activate damage shields at the correct time. If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time."

Makes all kinds of sense to me, not sure what's the problem here.

The problem, is that 6 seconds is like 3 seconds. NVM trying to play in lag with even the slightest delay.


I'd be fine with a 8-10 second duration. That would be the sweet-spot for this offense/defense they want to try and turn PvP into in regards to shields.

Rakkul

Jowrik wrote: »

"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously. Decreasing the duration of all damage shields to 6 seconds means that they are just as powerful for stopping high amounts of burst damage. However, there is now less safety with the decreased duration and more skill is required to activate damage shields at the correct time. If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time."

Makes all kinds of sense to me, not sure what's the problem here.

Makes absolutely no sense at all from a pve perspective. Who is this someone I'm finishing off and getting a kill in a boss battle? Or did they simply ignore the pve aspect of any DB changes - then it makes fractionally more sense than none at all.

WuffyCerulei

Fortunately I am not a sorc that relies on the damage shields so much. I focus more on range dps and support rather than wrapping myself in bubble wrap.

StopDropAndBear

Can't we meet somewhere in the middle and just get slightly weaker shields with a slightly shorter duration?

Magdalina

JubJub wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

JubJub wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

JubJub wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

JubJub wrote: »

It's only a 14 sec difference lol most shields are gone or reapplied within 3 secs. Gotta look on the bright side atleast they didn't add a cast time to it or made it bashable, you guys will be over it after a week.

Just, for the record, 6 is 30% of 20, meaning it was a 70% nerf in duration. Please, tell me how a 70% nerf in anything is negligible. I'll wait...

Lol whens the last time you had a full 20 sec shield in any fight? Sorcs finaly get balanced and it's the end of the world, you guys will be alright

okay so first you try and pass it off as though it's not a change that really matters as "most shields are down within 3 seconds" then you try and claim sorcs got balanced with this change?. the duration change isn't a balance change it's just an annoyance that doesn't need to be in the game.

it is an attempt at a lazy fix to a real problem. no, people have been complaining about lazy half-assed fixes since the IC update, but when it's in relation to the sorc it's okay?. no get the *** outta here with that, these lazy fixes are not okay.

Read it however you want bro it's not even that serious of a nerf, I mean harness was given phys dmg mitigation too...no pleasing you people.

the changes to harness makes sorcs obsolete. i mean are you so blind that you can't see how giving magicka templars and magicka nightblades their own 'hardened ward' is detrimental to sorcs?.

i have already said many times. the changes to harness are bad. harness should not block physical attacks.

What? Hows that make sorcs obsolete every other class has one shield while sorcs have two. Last time I checked two donuts were better than one.

Last I checked every other class has reliable selfheals(and one of them even has an amazing escape ability that does not have a stacking cost increase) and spammable class damage skills.

If you give sorc those I'll be fairly happy with the overall change. Especially from a PvE perspective since shield stacking never had much point there.

Pomaikai wrote: »

jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

It's also worth noting that there were many, many other changes to Sorcerers - not just the two listed in the first post. It may be worth looking at all the changes as a bigger picture, and remembering those while testing out the changes on the PTS.

As far as magicka sorcerers go all that was really changed was the spell absorption (still not worth slotting in normal circumstances) and the nerfs to wards (Sorcs can't afford another two slot loss for pets most of us are already gimped to 3 skills to match other classes in DPS). Everything else was classwide.

I'm a bit upset that the Sorcerers' unique all damage type shield is also now being given to all builds through the light armor and undaunted skill lines.

I'm not destroyed by the 6 second time frame, 10 would be a better compromise, but I'd survive with 6.

And with everyone in PvP now running a damage shield Surge is more useless than it was before.

I just see it as each class has a unique defense mechanic. Sorcs had their Ward, DKs had wings, NB had cloak, and Temps had BoL.

Now everyone has a damage shield comparable to a Sorcs Ward, so what is my unique defense?

I can't even run away from the fight with streak without it costing me 2 arms and 2 legs.

Just curious as to why it was decided that full damage shields would be given to all classes?

And your outrage at BoL getting nerfed last DLC was where?

Templars got free Major Mending in its place and no one took away their unique support skills(class purge, shards, repentance). What do sorc have going for them now again, especially in PvE?

Feynn

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Sorcs, you now have 3 shields, ALL of which absorb ALL DAMAGE ffs.

Whereas all other classes "only" have 2 (in addition to their class-based defences)? What's your point exactly? As if anyone could possibly be stacking 3 shields of a 6sec duration each.

Vangy

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Jowrik wrote: »

"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously. Decreasing the duration of all damage shields to 6 seconds means that they are just as powerful for stopping high amounts of burst damage. However, there is now less safety with the decreased duration and more skill is required to activate damage shields at the correct time. If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time."

Makes all kinds of sense to me, not sure what's the problem here.

The problem, is that 6 seconds is like 3 seconds. NVM trying to play in lag with even the slightest delay.


I'd be fine with a 8-10 second duration. That would be the sweet-spot for this offense/defense they want to try and turn PvP into in regards to shields.

Think the other morph of ward gives an 8 second duration shield that is slightly weaker. Its a pretty good choice and actually makes the other morph a valid pick.. Previously it was auto-pick hardened ward. Now sorcs have to choose between longer duration or stronger shield.

Derra

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Edit: And the worst part being that nerf to duration of shields only changes the survivability when ganked. Every moron with a bow is salivating already.

@Derra Don't know about you but I think there's a lot more merit now running radiant or defensive rune at minimum.

I´m already running defensive rune. Problem is a competent ganker fires a bow shot before attacking and most of the time should be able to kill you with bowheavy + style out of stealth.

Defensive rune does not help in that case.

RML might help there but i refuse to slot a skill of that limited use simply bc zos is unable to create a combat system where stealthganks are not possible.

Because stealth gameplay is a core mechanic of TES games.

Fine for PvE not for PvP.

Oneshot kills from an invisible opponent are about the least desireable thing a pvp game can offer.

Also stealth gameplay does not equal stealthgank oneshots. Funny that this is the same for you

since there are counters to one shots, that doesnt bother me. from resistance, to more health, to impen, to mage light, to shields. just because a counter gameplay does not fit into what you want to do does not mean it does not have a place.

Since shields get removed as a counter (keeping up 6s shields while traveling is unrealistic) HP at 25k+ and full impen does not save you the only thing remaining is magelight.

Which was the initial point made: If the only counter is an otherwise mostly useless ability it´s simply bad coding. Thanks for making my point a little clearer.

i would like to see a one shot with 25k health and impen please. thanks.

shields dont remove it. now you can choose to run and counter ganks or ride to get their faster. not to mention, you can go around heavy traveled areas in order to ride. mage light is useful otherwise. pulls people from stealth, gives crit, and 50% reduced damage to you and allies. not to mention empower buff.

it is simply providing more choices and more detriment to choices rather than having all the best stuff in one build.

one shot builds require low regen and low health. any ganker caught outside the shadows is done.

It's like the second post in here:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262446/incap-strike#latest

Incap can still do 10-12K to people with 3200 crit resist. That's not even counting a bow shot and ambush. That leaves you more than 'close enough' to death to even react.

Now. Can we have our *** shield back, or are you going to keep trying to convince me that I *deserve* to be your instant gank content?

Stop pissing in everyone's mouth and calling it rain.

first, dont equate a one shot to a combo.

If a combination of skills all hitting at the same time result in instantly killing you it´s a 1 shot effectively. You have no time to react and that´s bad (when there is no way to avoid it because it´s executed from invisibility). Plain and simple.

Derra

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

its moved the sorc away from no skill to skill again. No longer will you have pug sorcs being better then you just on class design. Hopefully they move all classes to more skill and less class mechanic winning designs.

THIS, finally someone gets it.

Us OG's that played sorc long before the 1.6 reroll craze have watched our class get ridiculed and attacked for months because of the terribad fotm rerolls using cheese templates.

The men will be separated from the boys now, and good riddance if you ask me. The good sorcs will stay, the bads will go away. And those of us that stay, wont really change to our opponents, we will be as strong as we ever were.

Agree. The thread should say "rip bad sorcs".

Except almost the classes stronger than sorcerer is still stronger. And most of the other classes have received buffs.

I wrote that in the context of reduced duration of hardened ward. Good sorcs won't be affected by the reduced duration in pvp, bad sorcs might. Every other magicka build getting the annulment buff is an issue for sorcs though. Can you imagine the outrage if annulment had been given a reflect mechanic instead, or a cloak mechanic?

I´d argue also above average sorcs are affected by this change.

Shields do run out consistently when fighting overly defensive players. It takes a while to take down anyone who has decided to go full turtle mode.
With this change you have to effectively reduce your offense on those players by 16% if you don´t let your guard down.
At the same time it has become easier for defensive players to turtle up because using harness on a magica build is no longer a tradeoff but a no brainer - so everyone´s gonna run with healing ward + harness + their classes other defensive abilities.

Combine that "passive" nerf to pressure sorc builds with the nerf to dawnbreaker and loss of detonation dmg for burst sorc setups they have effectively managed to nerf burst builds (taking away abilities) alongside sustained dmg ones (more time needed to keep defenses up).

I´m sure ppl will manage but i´m also certain it´s not the minor or nonissue some people make it out to be.

Jowrik wrote: »

"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously. Decreasing the duration of all damage shields to 6 seconds means that they are just as powerful for stopping high amounts of burst damage. However, there is now less safety with the decreased duration and more skill is required to activate damage shields at the correct time. If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time."

Makes all kinds of sense to me, not sure what's the problem here.

The problem is a NB for example does not let their guard down while playing offensively. Aswell as a templar or DK. They all have reliable high passive healing associated to their main DPS abilities.
If you have a reliable steady heal having reactionary defenses work (or an instant burstheal...).
However a sorc does not have that. Their defense is a shield with no reliable healing mechanics compared to other classes.
Which now results in sorc being the only class being 100% vulnerable when on the offense.

Alongside this sorcerers are the only class without access to strong DOT abilities (those reduce the need to be offensive constantly as they keep pressure on the enemy even while defensive abilities are casted) - as a consequence sorcerers need the highest offensive uptime to kill an enemy.

I agree that sorc burst builds were a little too potent (i have not played deto dawnbreaker myself as i don´t like 1 shotting ppl). But nerfing burst builds and then taking away the ability to constantly pressure aswell is a little over the top imho.
Why would a play a sorc now when i can just play my NB that has better burst, a better teleport, better CC and is safer to play at the same time?

Digiman

Derra wrote: »

Jowrik wrote: »

"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously. Decreasing the duration of all damage shields to 6 seconds means that they are just as powerful for stopping high amounts of burst damage. However, there is now less safety with the decreased duration and more skill is required to activate damage shields at the correct time. If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time."

Makes all kinds of sense to me, not sure what's the problem here.

The problem is a NB for example does not let their guard down while playing offensively. Aswell as a templar or DK. They all have reliable high passive healing associated to their main DPS abilities.
If you have a reliable steady heal having reactionary defenses work (or an instant burstheal...).
However a sorc does not have that. Their defense is a shield with no reliable healing mechanics compared to other classes.
Which now results in sorc being the only class being 100% vulnerable when on the offense.

Alongside this sorcerers are the only class without access to strong DOT abilities (those reduce the need to be offensive constantly as they keep pressure on the enemy even while defensive abilities are casted) - as a consequence sorcerers need the highest offensive uptime to kill an enemy.

I agree that sorc burst builds were a little too potent (i have not played deto dawnbreaker myself as i don´t like 1 shotting ppl). But nerfing burst builds and then taking away the ability to constantly pressure aswell is a little over the top imho.
Why would a play a sorc now when i can just play my NB that has better burst, a better teleport, better CC and is safer to play at the same time?

Hit the nail on the head, it's ridiculous that my LA magicka sorcerer must concentrate on either offense or defense while others classes don't have that worry.

Quite the double standard.

Septimus_Magna

What I dont understand is why Annulment also shields physical and spell dmg with a 6 second duration.

This basically makes Conjured Ward and Annulment the same skill.
To make it worse, the Hardened Ward and Dampen Magic morphs do the exact same thing (increase shield size).

The small difference in shield size and ability cost is not enough to give sorcs a signature defensive ability.

The logical conclusion would be to either nerf Annulment or buff Conjure Ward.
Either by changing the shield size or duration.
Many sorcs would probably agree with a 10-12 second duration on Conjure Ward for example.

Its unfair to nerf sorcs main defense (which also impairs synergy with Annulment) and give other magicka builds defense similar that sorcs have. A magicka templar can now shield as good as sorcs and insta self-heal with a class ability, this doesnt seem right in terms of balance.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

notimetocare wrote: »

Ryuho wrote: »

Conjured Ward: Reduced the duration of this ability and the Hardened Ward morph to 6 seconds from 20 seconds.
Empowered Ward (Conjured Ward morph): Reduced the duration of this morph to 8 seconds from 20 seconds.

Idk what to say..

Oh no... Sorc will take a slight bit of skill to put out damage while being uncritable with a 30-50k effective health pool? *legasp*

Well, sorcs have always required skill while you just don't seem to use your brain at all.

Mojomonkeyman

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Ryuho wrote: »

Conjured Ward: Reduced the duration of this ability and the Hardened Ward morph to 6 seconds from 20 seconds.
Empowered Ward (Conjured Ward morph): Reduced the duration of this morph to 8 seconds from 20 seconds.

Idk what to say..

Oh no... Sorc will take a slight bit of skill to put out damage while being uncritable with a 30-50k effective health pool? *legasp*

Well, sorcs have always required skill while you just don't seem to use your brain at all.

Not really since the removal of softcaps. Of course you can always bring yourself into situations that are somewhat challenging, but magSorc was on the "very easy to use, still quite easy to master" end of the difficulty scale in my opinion.

STEVIL

Rakkul wrote: »

Jowrik wrote: »

"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously. Decreasing the duration of all damage shields to 6 seconds means that they are just as powerful for stopping high amounts of burst damage. However, there is now less safety with the decreased duration and more skill is required to activate damage shields at the correct time. If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time."

Makes all kinds of sense to me, not sure what's the problem here.

Makes absolutely no sense at all from a pve perspective. Who is this someone I'm finishing off and getting a kill in a boss battle? Or did they simply ignore the pve aspect of any DB changes - then it makes fractionally more sense than none at all.

Sounds like tsctical options to me.

Do you try going in shielded and keeping them up?
Do you go in unshielded but withnother resistances and cue shields mid-fight for a window to cut loose full dps bring doen house?
Do you save shield for boss and manage minions other ways?
How do you switch up sets to adapt to this change and others?
Hey, maybe the curse set from tg as three jewel 16 and two pc (maybe hesvy maybeblt) that procs an aoe dot damage and heal starts to look better. Or Pariah?

Choices, choices.

AverageJo3Gam3r

Stop QQing. Now you'll have to wear a piece or two of heavy armor with impen. Just like every other magic class. I have a magDK, a magplar, and a sorc, and even with the change my sorc will still be my most surviveable class in PvP due to streak, and in solo PvE will be on par with my Templar due to crit surge heals.

JubJub

Magdalina wrote: »

JubJub wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

JubJub wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

JubJub wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

JubJub wrote: »

It's only a 14 sec difference lol most shields are gone or reapplied within 3 secs. Gotta look on the bright side atleast they didn't add a cast time to it or made it bashable, you guys will be over it after a week.

Just, for the record, 6 is 30% of 20, meaning it was a 70% nerf in duration. Please, tell me how a 70% nerf in anything is negligible. I'll wait...

Lol whens the last time you had a full 20 sec shield in any fight? Sorcs finaly get balanced and it's the end of the world, you guys will be alright

okay so first you try and pass it off as though it's not a change that really matters as "most shields are down within 3 seconds" then you try and claim sorcs got balanced with this change?. the duration change isn't a balance change it's just an annoyance that doesn't need to be in the game.

it is an attempt at a lazy fix to a real problem. no, people have been complaining about lazy half-assed fixes since the IC update, but when it's in relation to the sorc it's okay?. no get the *** outta here with that, these lazy fixes are not okay.

Read it however you want bro it's not even that serious of a nerf, I mean harness was given phys dmg mitigation too...no pleasing you people.

the changes to harness makes sorcs obsolete. i mean are you so blind that you can't see how giving magicka templars and magicka nightblades their own 'hardened ward' is detrimental to sorcs?.

i have already said many times. the changes to harness are bad. harness should not block physical attacks.

What? Hows that make sorcs obsolete every other class has one shield while sorcs have two. Last time I checked two donuts were better than one.

Last I checked every other class has reliable selfheals(and one of them even has an amazing escape ability that does not have a stacking cost increase) and spammable class damage skills.

If you give sorc those I'll be fairly happy with the overall change. Especially from a PvE perspective since shield stacking never had much point there.

Pomaikai wrote: »

jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

It's also worth noting that there were many, many other changes to Sorcerers - not just the two listed in the first post. It may be worth looking at all the changes as a bigger picture, and remembering those while testing out the changes on the PTS.

As far as magicka sorcerers go all that was really changed was the spell absorption (still not worth slotting in normal circumstances) and the nerfs to wards (Sorcs can't afford another two slot loss for pets most of us are already gimped to 3 skills to match other classes in DPS). Everything else was classwide.

I'm a bit upset that the Sorcerers' unique all damage type shield is also now being given to all builds through the light armor and undaunted skill lines.

I'm not destroyed by the 6 second time frame, 10 would be a better compromise, but I'd survive with 6.

And with everyone in PvP now running a damage shield Surge is more useless than it was before.

I just see it as each class has a unique defense mechanic. Sorcs had their Ward, DKs had wings, NB had cloak, and Temps had BoL.

Now everyone has a damage shield comparable to a Sorcs Ward, so what is my unique defense?

I can't even run away from the fight with streak without it costing me 2 arms and 2 legs.

Just curious as to why it was decided that full damage shields would be given to all classes?

And your outrage at BoL getting nerfed last DLC was where?

Templars got free Major Mending in its place and no one took away their unique support skills(class purge, shards, repentance). What do sorc have going for them now again, especially in PvE?

But sorcs have two seperate heals pets last time I checked.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

JubJub wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

JubJub wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

JubJub wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

JubJub wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

JubJub wrote: »

It's only a 14 sec difference lol most shields are gone or reapplied within 3 secs. Gotta look on the bright side atleast they didn't add a cast time to it or made it bashable, you guys will be over it after a week.

Just, for the record, 6 is 30% of 20, meaning it was a 70% nerf in duration. Please, tell me how a 70% nerf in anything is negligible. I'll wait...

Lol whens the last time you had a full 20 sec shield in any fight? Sorcs finaly get balanced and it's the end of the world, you guys will be alright

okay so first you try and pass it off as though it's not a change that really matters as "most shields are down within 3 seconds" then you try and claim sorcs got balanced with this change?. the duration change isn't a balance change it's just an annoyance that doesn't need to be in the game.

it is an attempt at a lazy fix to a real problem. no, people have been complaining about lazy half-assed fixes since the IC update, but when it's in relation to the sorc it's okay?. no get the *** outta here with that, these lazy fixes are not okay.

Read it however you want bro it's not even that serious of a nerf, I mean harness was given phys dmg mitigation too...no pleasing you people.

the changes to harness makes sorcs obsolete. i mean are you so blind that you can't see how giving magicka templars and magicka nightblades their own 'hardened ward' is detrimental to sorcs?.

i have already said many times. the changes to harness are bad. harness should not block physical attacks.

What? Hows that make sorcs obsolete every other class has one shield while sorcs have two. Last time I checked two donuts were better than one.

Last I checked every other class has reliable selfheals(and one of them even has an amazing escape ability that does not have a stacking cost increase) and spammable class damage skills.

If you give sorc those I'll be fairly happy with the overall change. Especially from a PvE perspective since shield stacking never had much point there.

Pomaikai wrote: »

jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

It's also worth noting that there were many, many other changes to Sorcerers - not just the two listed in the first post. It may be worth looking at all the changes as a bigger picture, and remembering those while testing out the changes on the PTS.

As far as magicka sorcerers go all that was really changed was the spell absorption (still not worth slotting in normal circumstances) and the nerfs to wards (Sorcs can't afford another two slot loss for pets most of us are already gimped to 3 skills to match other classes in DPS). Everything else was classwide.

I'm a bit upset that the Sorcerers' unique all damage type shield is also now being given to all builds through the light armor and undaunted skill lines.

I'm not destroyed by the 6 second time frame, 10 would be a better compromise, but I'd survive with 6.

And with everyone in PvP now running a damage shield Surge is more useless than it was before.

I just see it as each class has a unique defense mechanic. Sorcs had their Ward, DKs had wings, NB had cloak, and Temps had BoL.

Now everyone has a damage shield comparable to a Sorcs Ward, so what is my unique defense?

I can't even run away from the fight with streak without it costing me 2 arms and 2 legs.

Just curious as to why it was decided that full damage shields would be given to all classes?

And your outrage at BoL getting nerfed last DLC was where?

Templars got free Major Mending in its place and no one took away their unique support skills(class purge, shards, repentance). What do sorc have going for them now again, especially in PvE?

But sorcs have two seperate heals pets last time I checked.

Two separate heals that both needs two slots(3 with overload) each to actually work well. So that's 2-6 slots gone for what a templar can do with 1 slot used. How is that balanced?

Minalan

Jowrik wrote: »

"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously. Decreasing the duration of all damage shields to 6 seconds means that they are just as powerful for stopping high amounts of burst damage. However, there is now less safety with the decreased duration and more skill is required to activate damage shields at the correct time. If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time."

Makes all kinds of sense to me, not sure what's the problem here.

It makes sense if all you do is play the little Cyrodiil mini game, running from keep to keep, or hiding and one-shotting people..

It makes no f***ing sense to those of us getting thrown into fire cages in veteran White Tower raids, and then having to pick an intermediate lock before you die from damage over time. Or those of us trying to res our healer in the middle of veteran Maw because he had the misfortune of being cursed and then blown up by adds before he could make it to the purge tile.

Six. Seconds. Isn't. Enough. For. PVE. 20 is fine. Leave it be.

Whoever said that is a drooling window licking moron, and if it was a ZOS dev or designer, they need to be fired. Like, humiliated and escorted from their desk with all of their things.

Derra

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Ryuho wrote: »

Conjured Ward: Reduced the duration of this ability and the Hardened Ward morph to 6 seconds from 20 seconds.
Empowered Ward (Conjured Ward morph): Reduced the duration of this morph to 8 seconds from 20 seconds.

Idk what to say..

Oh no... Sorc will take a slight bit of skill to put out damage while being uncritable with a 30-50k effective health pool? *legasp*

Well, sorcs have always required skill while you just don't seem to use your brain at all.

Not really since the removal of softcaps. Of course you can always bring yourself into situations that are somewhat challenging, but magSorc was on the "very easy to use, still quite easy to master" end of the difficulty scale in my opinion.

I wouldn´t word it that way.

I´ve not met a sorc i´ve lost a duel to since i dropped vampire the last time (before orsinium) - and i am far from the point of considering myself a master of the class. I make mistakes all the time.

The class was too forgiving and shieldstacking made it too easy to stay alive resulting in players performing above their average on sorc. Mastering is something completely different.

Sadly sorcs being unkillable when focused will be an issue getting even worse with the next update. Yay ZOS

Mojomonkeyman

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Ryuho wrote: »

Conjured Ward: Reduced the duration of this ability and the Hardened Ward morph to 6 seconds from 20 seconds.
Empowered Ward (Conjured Ward morph): Reduced the duration of this morph to 8 seconds from 20 seconds.

Idk what to say..

Oh no... Sorc will take a slight bit of skill to put out damage while being uncritable with a 30-50k effective health pool? *legasp*

Well, sorcs have always required skill while you just don't seem to use your brain at all.

Not really since the removal of softcaps. Of course you can always bring yourself into situations that are somewhat challenging, but magSorc was on the "very easy to use, still quite easy to master" end of the difficulty scale in my opinion.

I wouldn´t word it that way.

I´ve not met a sorc i´ve lost a duel to since i dropped vampire the last time (before orsinium) - and i am far from the point of considering myself a master of the class. I make mistakes all the time.

The class was too forgiving and shieldstacking made it too easy to stay alive resulting in players performing above their average on sorc. Mastering is something completely different.

Sadly sorcs being unkillable when focused will be an issue getting even worse with the next update. Yay ZOS

Well, the game is not new, so the highest level of play available right now would be mastership in my pov, despite not being perfect play. I would say there`s about 30, maybe 40 of players around (in regards to magsorc, including good ones that have left) which I would place into the master category. You being probably at the top end of that scale, despite making flaws, just less.

But my point stands, I think it is easier to get into that category with magsorc and you will have more success with the same level of experience than with other setups.

Or that`s how it used to be since removal of softcaps (imo).

Derra

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Ryuho wrote: »

Conjured Ward: Reduced the duration of this ability and the Hardened Ward morph to 6 seconds from 20 seconds.
Empowered Ward (Conjured Ward morph): Reduced the duration of this morph to 8 seconds from 20 seconds.

Idk what to say..

Oh no... Sorc will take a slight bit of skill to put out damage while being uncritable with a 30-50k effective health pool? *legasp*

Well, sorcs have always required skill while you just don't seem to use your brain at all.

Not really since the removal of softcaps. Of course you can always bring yourself into situations that are somewhat challenging, but magSorc was on the "very easy to use, still quite easy to master" end of the difficulty scale in my opinion.

I wouldn´t word it that way.

I´ve not met a sorc i´ve lost a duel to since i dropped vampire the last time (before orsinium) - and i am far from the point of considering myself a master of the class. I make mistakes all the time.

The class was too forgiving and shieldstacking made it too easy to stay alive resulting in players performing above their average on sorc. Mastering is something completely different.

Sadly sorcs being unkillable when focused will be an issue getting even worse with the next update. Yay ZOS

Well, the game is not new, so the highest level of play available right now would be mastership in my pov, despite not being perfect play. I would say there`s about 30, maybe 40 of players around (in regards to magsorc, including good ones that have left) which I would place into the master category. You being probably at the top end of that scale, despite making flaws, just less.

But my point stands, I think it is easier to get into that category with magsorc and you will have more success with the same level of experience than with other setups.

Or that`s how it used to be since removal of softcaps (imo).

Ok semantics then

Anyway i´ll be leveling a stam DK with the next patch, now with a shield i think i´ll finally manage

Septimus_Magna

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

Stop QQing. Now you'll have to wear a piece or two of heavy armor with impen. Just like every other magic class. I have a magDK, a magplar, and a sorc, and even with the change my sorc will still be my most surviveable class in PvP due to streak, and in solo PvE will be on par with my Templar due to crit surge heals.

This argument again, 2 heavy isnt going to do anything.
In fact, 5/1/1 is way better due to Undaunted Mettle passive.

You trade 1/4 of heavy shoulder/legs/helmet armor rating for 2% extra magicka, health and stamina.

Impen is already common on sorcs, at least on the small pieces.

With these changes your magplar will be twice as tanky as your sorc, he can slot Dampen Magic to get nearly the same shield as Hardened Ward and if someone bursts this shield down it takes one BoL to get to full health instantly.

Meanwhile your sorc wont be effective in stacking shields due to the 6s duration and the healing has a 6s delay with Healing Ward.

How is this balanced?

Mojomonkeyman

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Ryuho wrote: »

Conjured Ward: Reduced the duration of this ability and the Hardened Ward morph to 6 seconds from 20 seconds.
Empowered Ward (Conjured Ward morph): Reduced the duration of this morph to 8 seconds from 20 seconds.

Idk what to say..

Oh no... Sorc will take a slight bit of skill to put out damage while being uncritable with a 30-50k effective health pool? *legasp*

Well, sorcs have always required skill while you just don't seem to use your brain at all.

Not really since the removal of softcaps. Of course you can always bring yourself into situations that are somewhat challenging, but magSorc was on the "very easy to use, still quite easy to master" end of the difficulty scale in my opinion.

I wouldn´t word it that way.

I´ve not met a sorc i´ve lost a duel to since i dropped vampire the last time (before orsinium) - and i am far from the point of considering myself a master of the class. I make mistakes all the time.

The class was too forgiving and shieldstacking made it too easy to stay alive resulting in players performing above their average on sorc. Mastering is something completely different.

Sadly sorcs being unkillable when focused will be an issue getting even worse with the next update. Yay ZOS

Well, the game is not new, so the highest level of play available right now would be mastership in my pov, despite not being perfect play. I would say there`s about 30, maybe 40 of players around (in regards to magsorc, including good ones that have left) which I would place into the master category. You being probably at the top end of that scale, despite making flaws, just less.

But my point stands, I think it is easier to get into that category with magsorc and you will have more success with the same level of experience than with other setups.

Or that`s how it used to be since removal of softcaps (imo).

Ok semantics then

Anyway i´ll be leveling a stam DK with the next patch, now with a shield i think i´ll finally manage

Yuke will be proud, im sure.

illuminousflux

Well, as someone who's only v16 toons are a magicka sorcerer and a stamina sorcerer, I think the nerf is great, for either PvE or PvP. For those of you who will be missing it in PvE, you may just have to learn to block or dodge roll a little more, maybe even through a few attribute points into stamina to help with that or if you find yourself getting one shot a lot in dungeons you might need to put a little more attention in your health pool. And as far as vMA is concerned, I know in my experience, even with 100 in bastion I'm having to constantly recast shields in a way shorter time period than 6 seconds, so I really don't think it's a huge deal. Most DPS have to run with at least 18k health, I know I do on my stam sorc. Wearing a heavy chest really helps boost your defense a little as well. And also don't forget about boundless storm, which will really help your resistances quite a bit if you start running that in dungeons/trials instead of hardened ward.

On the PvP side I'm even more excited about how now shield stacking magicka sorcs with a high regen build will be able to constantly spam annulment with hardened ward and they're both going to be blocking a lot of damage for those 6 seconds. It's going to be great for when you have to go on the defense. And honestly, if 4 players are attacking you at once who's shields are even staying up for that long anyways, you have to recast quite often when you're under attack.

peak99

Way too many people are missing the point.


This isn't about "can't go on offensive long enough cuz shields are down)

This is about sorcs not having ANY OTHER defense. No wings , no fear, no cloak, no breath of life, no major mending/vitality.


But let's give EVERYone a shield. Ya that's fair.

I might be ok with with 6 seconds if it gave them mending for 6 seconds or something ? I mean Templars r becoming. Unkilable in their house atm. Dks reflect and heal insane. nB reset fights.

Sorcs aren't dead but this definitely puts them at the bottom.

bowmanz607

Derra wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

its moved the sorc away from no skill to skill again. No longer will you have pug sorcs being better then you just on class design. Hopefully they move all classes to more skill and less class mechanic winning designs.

THIS, finally someone gets it.

Us OG's that played sorc long before the 1.6 reroll craze have watched our class get ridiculed and attacked for months because of the terribad fotm rerolls using cheese templates.

The men will be separated from the boys now, and good riddance if you ask me. The good sorcs will stay, the bads will go away. And those of us that stay, wont really change to our opponents, we will be as strong as we ever were.

Agree. The thread should say "rip bad sorcs".

Except almost the classes stronger than sorcerer is still stronger. And most of the other classes have received buffs.

I wrote that in the context of reduced duration of hardened ward. Good sorcs won't be affected by the reduced duration in pvp, bad sorcs might. Every other magicka build getting the annulment buff is an issue for sorcs though. Can you imagine the outrage if annulment had been given a reflect mechanic instead, or a cloak mechanic?

I´d argue also above average sorcs are affected by this change.

Shields do run out consistently when fighting overly defensive players. It takes a while to take down anyone who has decided to go full turtle mode.
With this change you have to effectively reduce your offense on those players by 16% if you don´t let your guard down.
At the same time it has become easier for defensive players to turtle up because using harness on a magica build is no longer a tradeoff but a no brainer - so everyone´s gonna run with healing ward + harness + their classes other defensive abilities.

Combine that "passive" nerf to pressure sorc builds with the nerf to dawnbreaker and loss of detonation dmg for burst sorc setups they have effectively managed to nerf burst builds (taking away abilities) alongside sustained dmg ones (more time needed to keep defenses up).

I´m sure ppl will manage but i´m also certain it´s not the minor or nonissue some people make it out to be.

Jowrik wrote: »

"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously. Decreasing the duration of all damage shields to 6 seconds means that they are just as powerful for stopping high amounts of burst damage. However, there is now less safety with the decreased duration and more skill is required to activate damage shields at the correct time. If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time."

Makes all kinds of sense to me, not sure what's the problem here.

The problem is a NB for example does not let their guard down while playing offensively. Aswell as a templar or DK. They all have reliable high passive healing associated to their main DPS abilities.
If you have a reliable steady heal having reactionary defenses work (or an instant burstheal...).
However a sorc does not have that. Their defense is a shield with no reliable healing mechanics compared to other classes.
Which now results in sorc being the only class being 100% vulnerable when on the offense.

Alongside this sorcerers are the only class without access to strong DOT abilities (those reduce the need to be offensive constantly as they keep pressure on the enemy even while defensive abilities are casted) - as a consequence sorcerers need the highest offensive uptime to kill an enemy.

I agree that sorc burst builds were a little too potent (i have not played deto dawnbreaker myself as i don´t like 1 shotting ppl). But nerfing burst builds and then taking away the ability to constantly pressure aswell is a little over the top imho.
Why would a play a sorc now when i can just play my NB that has better burst, a better teleport, better CC and is safer to play at the same time?

I see your point and the perspective your coming from. I really do. However, you make it seem like sorcs are dead and gone. Your perspective also over glorifies the other classes while underselling the sorc.

A mag templar basically has BOL and jabs. BOL requires going full defensive in order to survive. Jabs, although a powerful attack when followed thru on, is still easily avoidable and spamming it will get you killed against a competent player. It requires a combination to properly execute the ability against a competent player. therefore, the heals are not necessarily guaranteed. Overall, a mag templar has to go full defensive to stay protected or full offense with one ability that can not be spammed against a good player making the heals sporadic.

A mag dk effectively has flame lash, wings, and burning embers. Both of these heals leave something to be desired. Additionally, both require attacking another player. wings are a solid hard counter to projectiles. Overall, one attack requires full offense to obtain. The other requires at least attacking once and can be purged making the heals sporadic.Wings are ineffective against melee and aoe while also having a short duration and projectile cap.

A mag nb essentially has swallow soul and sap essence. Both require the player to attack another player. Swallow soul was over performing and they were right to nerf that ability. However, although the dps was soild it still wasnt going to kill a player. Sap requires being fighting close to multiple enemies which makes it a risk/reward ability. Overall, swallow soul requires attacking another player, but is otherwise sustainable while leaving dps just low enough to not sway the outcome of a battle. Sap dps is alright, but to get the heals requires attacking multiple enemies which leaves the player vulnerable to attack.

A mag sorc basically has a shield, surge, and dark magic. Surge is not always guaranteed and requires attacking another player. Dark magic requires attacking another player. The shield can operate as a full defensive ability when getting attacked hard. It can also operate as a buff right before going on the offensive giving a hard counter to attacks for a period of time while going full offensive. Overall, a competent sorc will proc surge often enough to make it semi-sustainable while also adding in the fact that many of the attacks used to get surge heals will also get you Dark magic heals making the heals more potent. Additionally, shields are a hard counter to all attacks and can can be used both to protect while going full offensive or to be spammed for full defense.

In the end i give the nod to sorcs.

PainfulFAFA

Magicka sorcs will be fine, its mostly a l2p issue

OTHO....
RIP Stam Sorcs.

apostate9

Digiman wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

It's also worth noting that there were many, many other changes to Sorcerers - not just the two listed in the first post. It may be worth looking at all the changes as a bigger picture, and remembering those while testing out the changes on the PTS.

i did, and the ward change is the only one i take issue with. i believe a far more reasonable change is 10 sec and 12 sec, the way it is now is just far far far to much of a reduction

That's fair. Shields as a whole is something that got changed so it's worth trying these out (maybe even in Cyrodiil against other players) to see how it feels. We'll be publishing individual feedback threads for all the classes in a bit, and you can post your thoughts there after giving it a test run.

@ZOS_GinaBruno The issue here isn't the duration, infact this duration puts even more pressure on Sorcerers to keep their shields up to prevent being one shotted.

It's that they completely negate crit, if you made the critable this would allow other classes to fight at full power without feeling like they just got gimped by a person with a bubble.

The fact that you are also giving shields to all classes clearly points to your team stubbornly refusing to acknowledge this big problem being solved with a tiny fix. Infact a lot of issues for people with shields would be solved by making them crittable.

Or...

Git some health. Git some inpen. Git some healing. Git some stamina...

In other words, paradigm shift from the ridiculous sorc cheese min/max FOTM template and realize that the game has other stats in addition to the size of the magicka pool.

Magdalina

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

JubJub wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

JubJub wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

JubJub wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

JubJub wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

JubJub wrote: »

It's only a 14 sec difference lol most shields are gone or reapplied within 3 secs. Gotta look on the bright side atleast they didn't add a cast time to it or made it bashable, you guys will be over it after a week.

Just, for the record, 6 is 30% of 20, meaning it was a 70% nerf in duration. Please, tell me how a 70% nerf in anything is negligible. I'll wait...

Lol whens the last time you had a full 20 sec shield in any fight? Sorcs finaly get balanced and it's the end of the world, you guys will be alright

okay so first you try and pass it off as though it's not a change that really matters as "most shields are down within 3 seconds" then you try and claim sorcs got balanced with this change?. the duration change isn't a balance change it's just an annoyance that doesn't need to be in the game.

it is an attempt at a lazy fix to a real problem. no, people have been complaining about lazy half-assed fixes since the IC update, but when it's in relation to the sorc it's okay?. no get the *** outta here with that, these lazy fixes are not okay.

Read it however you want bro it's not even that serious of a nerf, I mean harness was given phys dmg mitigation too...no pleasing you people.

the changes to harness makes sorcs obsolete. i mean are you so blind that you can't see how giving magicka templars and magicka nightblades their own 'hardened ward' is detrimental to sorcs?.

i have already said many times. the changes to harness are bad. harness should not block physical attacks.

What? Hows that make sorcs obsolete every other class has one shield while sorcs have two. Last time I checked two donuts were better than one.

Last I checked every other class has reliable selfheals(and one of them even has an amazing escape ability that does not have a stacking cost increase) and spammable class damage skills.

If you give sorc those I'll be fairly happy with the overall change. Especially from a PvE perspective since shield stacking never had much point there.

Pomaikai wrote: »

jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

It's also worth noting that there were many, many other changes to Sorcerers - not just the two listed in the first post. It may be worth looking at all the changes as a bigger picture, and remembering those while testing out the changes on the PTS.

As far as magicka sorcerers go all that was really changed was the spell absorption (still not worth slotting in normal circumstances) and the nerfs to wards (Sorcs can't afford another two slot loss for pets most of us are already gimped to 3 skills to match other classes in DPS). Everything else was classwide.

I'm a bit upset that the Sorcerers' unique all damage type shield is also now being given to all builds through the light armor and undaunted skill lines.

I'm not destroyed by the 6 second time frame, 10 would be a better compromise, but I'd survive with 6.

And with everyone in PvP now running a damage shield Surge is more useless than it was before.

I just see it as each class has a unique defense mechanic. Sorcs had their Ward, DKs had wings, NB had cloak, and Temps had BoL.

Now everyone has a damage shield comparable to a Sorcs Ward, so what is my unique defense?

I can't even run away from the fight with streak without it costing me 2 arms and 2 legs.

Just curious as to why it was decided that full damage shields would be given to all classes?

And your outrage at BoL getting nerfed last DLC was where?

Templars got free Major Mending in its place and no one took away their unique support skills(class purge, shards, repentance). What do sorc have going for them now again, especially in PvE?

But sorcs have two seperate heals pets last time I checked.

Two separate heals that both needs two slots(3 with overload) each to actually work well. So that's 2-6 slots gone for what a templar can do with 1 slot used. How is that balanced?

You forgot the part where one of those pets also has 10k health, dies from a sneeze and has a cast time to resummon. That moment when you're like "oh I'm just gonna use my OP selfheal!" and your Twilight just managed to die a few seconds before and instead you start summoning her and die in the middle of the cast...

bowmanz607 wrote: »

A mag sorc basically has a shield, surge, and dark magic. Surge is not always guaranteed and requires attacking another player. Dark magic requires attacking another player. The shield can operate as a full defensive ability when getting attacked hard. It can also operate as a buff right before going on the offensive giving a hard counter to attacks for a period of time while going full offensive. Overall, a competent sorc will proc surge often enough to make it semi-sustainable while also adding in the fact that many of the attacks used to get surge heals will also get you Dark magic heals making the heals more potent. Additionally, shields are a hard counter to all attacks and can can be used both to protect while going full offensive or to be spammed for full defense.

Wait...that's just not true ._. First of all, if this goes live, EVERYONE will have a shield. This'll make already unreliable Surge absolutely useless as a heal in Cyrodiil since shields cannot be crit. Dark Magic heal is laughable, it's like several % of your max health(it also only procs off 1 target even if your spell affects several) in Cyro.
PvP wise sorcs still will, however have Streak(Streak is love, Streak is life, Streak needs buffed to its former glory ) and Mines and ability to stack shields...this'll make good sorcs with good ping all the more annoying but it can be very bad for those of us that run >250-300 ping stably. Honestly though, it's not PvP that bothers me so much. Shields or not, at least sorcs still have Streak and Mines there so that's something special going for us. But PvE? ...yeah.