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RIP SORC!
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apostate9✭✭✭✭✭Let me spell this change out for anyone who is too stupid to understand it. Get your notebook out, you ready? Here is the new sorc killing meta:
Sorc casts ward. Play defensively for 5 seconds. CC > Burst > Dead Sorc.
Sorcs do not have cloak, Sorcs do not have BoL, Sorcs do not have wings, vigor, rally, shuffle, block or dodge roll, but now EVERYONE has conjured ward to back those abilities up.
Sorc should have the longest lasting shield. I would be happy with 10 seconds.
Figures you would be among the ones on here crying about this. Sorcs are not able to dodge roll? Or use vigor? Or rally? Sorcs can't use armor passives or skills?
Of course they can. If only they had any stamina at all. Guess you better rethink your cheese build. That green bar on the bottom of your screen is begging to be used for something in between frags and bubbles.
Kinda like the red bar, and all the traits other than divines.
Edited by apostate9 on 28 April 2016 21:513 -
apostate9✭✭✭✭✭andypappb16_ESO wrote: »Elevenstorm wrote: »andypappb16_ESO wrote: »Elevenstorm wrote: »Let me spell this change out for anyone who is too stupid to understand it. Get your notebook out, you ready? Here is the new sorc killing meta:
Sorc casts ward. Play defensively for 5 seconds. CC > Burst > Dead Sorc.
Sorcs do not have cloak, Sorcs do not have BoL, Sorcs do not have wings, vigor, rally, shuffle, block or dodge roll, but now EVERYONE has conjured ward to back those abilities up.
Sorc should have the longest lasting shield. I would be happy with 10 seconds.
Sorc's do have Vigor, Rally, Shuffle, Block and Dodge roll. You just choose to not use them.
This discussion is clearly about Magicka Sorc^^
This sort of pigeonhole thinking is what got Sorc's into this situation in the first place.
Lol wut, try to put vigor on a magicka sorc to use.
Hybrid Builds are not a thing currently, and its been a looooong time since it has been at all.
Odd. It worked ok on my mag DK. Maybe time to rethink your orthodoxy on what a "hybrid build" is? This thread is not about what sorcs CAN'T do. It's all about what you don't feel comfortable doing. Not the same thing at all.
Edited by apostate9 on 28 April 2016 21:513 -
Sureshawt✭✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »Conjured Ward: Reduced the duration of this ability and the Hardened Ward morph to 6 seconds from 20 seconds.
Empowered Ward (Conjured Ward morph): Reduced the duration of this morph to 8 seconds from 20 seconds.
Idk what to say..
Oh no... Sorc will take a slight bit of skill to put out damage while being uncritable with a 30-50k effective health pool? *legasp*
Well, sorcs have always required skill while you just don't seem to use your brain at all.
LOL....MagSorcs have always been an easy mode faceroll keyboard class and everyone knows it. Now they just have to faceroll the keyboard more often but its still easy mode compared to other classes. Get real....3 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »It's only a 14 sec difference lol most shields are gone or reapplied within 3 secs. Gotta look on the bright side atleast they didn't add a cast time to it or made it bashable, you guys will be over it after a week.
Just, for the record, 6 is 30% of 20, meaning it was a 70% nerf in duration. Please, tell me how a 70% nerf in anything is negligible. I'll wait...
Lol whens the last time you had a full 20 sec shield in any fight? Sorcs finaly get balanced and it's the end of the world, you guys will be alright
okay so first you try and pass it off as though it's not a change that really matters as "most shields are down within 3 seconds" then you try and claim sorcs got balanced with this change?. the duration change isn't a balance change it's just an annoyance that doesn't need to be in the game.
it is an attempt at a lazy fix to a real problem. no, people have been complaining about lazy half-assed fixes since the IC update, but when it's in relation to the sorc it's okay?. no get the *** outta here with that, these lazy fixes are not okay.
Read it however you want bro it's not even that serious of a nerf, I mean harness was given phys dmg mitigation too...no pleasing you people.
the changes to harness makes sorcs obsolete. i mean are you so blind that you can't see how giving magicka templars and magicka nightblades their own 'hardened ward' is detrimental to sorcs?.
i have already said many times. the changes to harness are bad. harness should not block physical attacks.
What? Hows that make sorcs obsolete every other class has one shield while sorcs have two. Last time I checked two donuts were better than one.
Last I checked every other class has reliable selfheals(and one of them even has an amazing escape ability that does not have a stacking cost increase) and spammable class damage skills.
If you give sorc those I'll be fairly happy with the overall change. Especially from a PvE perspective since shield stacking never had much point there.jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »It's also worth noting that there were many, many other changes to Sorcerers - not just the two listed in the first post. It may be worth looking at all the changes as a bigger picture, and remembering those while testing out the changes on the PTS.
As far as magicka sorcerers go all that was really changed was the spell absorption (still not worth slotting in normal circumstances) and the nerfs to wards (Sorcs can't afford another two slot loss for pets most of us are already gimped to 3 skills to match other classes in DPS). Everything else was classwide.
I'm a bit upset that the Sorcerers' unique all damage type shield is also now being given to all builds through the light armor and undaunted skill lines.
I'm not destroyed by the 6 second time frame, 10 would be a better compromise, but I'd survive with 6.
And with everyone in PvP now running a damage shield Surge is more useless than it was before.
I just see it as each class has a unique defense mechanic. Sorcs had their Ward, DKs had wings, NB had cloak, and Temps had BoL.
Now everyone has a damage shield comparable to a Sorcs Ward, so what is my unique defense?
I can't even run away from the fight with streak without it costing me 2 arms and 2 legs.
Just curious as to why it was decided that full damage shields would be given to all classes?
And your outrage at BoL getting nerfed last DLC was where?
Templars got free Major Mending in its place and no one took away their unique support skills(class purge, shards, repentance). What do sorc have going for them now again, especially in PvE?
But sorcs have two seperate heals pets last time I checked.
Two separate heals that both needs two slots(3 with overload) each to actually work well. So that's 2-6 slots gone for what a templar can do with 1 slot used. How is that balanced?
You forgot the part where one of those pets also has 10k health, dies from a sneeze and has a cast time to resummon. That moment when you're like "oh I'm just gonna use my OP selfheal!" and your Twilight just managed to die a few seconds before and instead you start summoning her and die in the middle of the cast...bowmanz607 wrote: »A mag sorc basically has a shield, surge, and dark magic. Surge is not always guaranteed and requires attacking another player. Dark magic requires attacking another player. The shield can operate as a full defensive ability when getting attacked hard. It can also operate as a buff right before going on the offensive giving a hard counter to attacks for a period of time while going full offensive. Overall, a competent sorc will proc surge often enough to make it semi-sustainable while also adding in the fact that many of the attacks used to get surge heals will also get you Dark magic heals making the heals more potent. Additionally, shields are a hard counter to all attacks and can can be used both to protect while going full offensive or to be spammed for full defense.
Wait...that's just not true ._. First of all, if this goes live, EVERYONE will have a shield. This'll make already unreliable Surge absolutely useless as a heal in Cyrodiil since shields cannot be crit. Dark Magic heal is laughable, it's like several % of your max health(it also only procs off 1 target even if your spell affects several) in Cyro.
PvP wise sorcs still will, however have Streak(Streak is love, Streak is life, Streak needs buffed to its former glory
) and Mines and ability to stack shields...this'll make good sorcs with good ping all the more annoying but it can be very bad for those of us that run >250-300 ping stably. Honestly though, it's not PvP that bothers me so much. Shields or not, at least sorcs still have Streak and Mines there so that's something special going for us. But PvE? ...yeah.
The points I made were directed at class skills. If you want to start pulling outside of class skills then fine, lets. Mag sorc have a whole skill line dedicated to heals called a rest staff. So there are your reliable heals. Additionally, Sorcs can stack 3 shields while others have one. So a sorc can apply a hot, shield stack and go offensive with all up for a short period of time before teapplying. Since these are available to all, the conversation was directed at class skills.0 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭bowmanz607 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »It's only a 14 sec difference lol most shields are gone or reapplied within 3 secs. Gotta look on the bright side atleast they didn't add a cast time to it or made it bashable, you guys will be over it after a week.
Just, for the record, 6 is 30% of 20, meaning it was a 70% nerf in duration. Please, tell me how a 70% nerf in anything is negligible. I'll wait...
Lol whens the last time you had a full 20 sec shield in any fight? Sorcs finaly get balanced and it's the end of the world, you guys will be alright
okay so first you try and pass it off as though it's not a change that really matters as "most shields are down within 3 seconds" then you try and claim sorcs got balanced with this change?. the duration change isn't a balance change it's just an annoyance that doesn't need to be in the game.
it is an attempt at a lazy fix to a real problem. no, people have been complaining about lazy half-assed fixes since the IC update, but when it's in relation to the sorc it's okay?. no get the *** outta here with that, these lazy fixes are not okay.
Read it however you want bro it's not even that serious of a nerf, I mean harness was given phys dmg mitigation too...no pleasing you people.
the changes to harness makes sorcs obsolete. i mean are you so blind that you can't see how giving magicka templars and magicka nightblades their own 'hardened ward' is detrimental to sorcs?.
i have already said many times. the changes to harness are bad. harness should not block physical attacks.
What? Hows that make sorcs obsolete every other class has one shield while sorcs have two. Last time I checked two donuts were better than one.
Last I checked every other class has reliable selfheals(and one of them even has an amazing escape ability that does not have a stacking cost increase) and spammable class damage skills.
If you give sorc those I'll be fairly happy with the overall change. Especially from a PvE perspective since shield stacking never had much point there.jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »It's also worth noting that there were many, many other changes to Sorcerers - not just the two listed in the first post. It may be worth looking at all the changes as a bigger picture, and remembering those while testing out the changes on the PTS.
As far as magicka sorcerers go all that was really changed was the spell absorption (still not worth slotting in normal circumstances) and the nerfs to wards (Sorcs can't afford another two slot loss for pets most of us are already gimped to 3 skills to match other classes in DPS). Everything else was classwide.
I'm a bit upset that the Sorcerers' unique all damage type shield is also now being given to all builds through the light armor and undaunted skill lines.
I'm not destroyed by the 6 second time frame, 10 would be a better compromise, but I'd survive with 6.
And with everyone in PvP now running a damage shield Surge is more useless than it was before.
I just see it as each class has a unique defense mechanic. Sorcs had their Ward, DKs had wings, NB had cloak, and Temps had BoL.
Now everyone has a damage shield comparable to a Sorcs Ward, so what is my unique defense?
I can't even run away from the fight with streak without it costing me 2 arms and 2 legs.
Just curious as to why it was decided that full damage shields would be given to all classes?
And your outrage at BoL getting nerfed last DLC was where?
Templars got free Major Mending in its place and no one took away their unique support skills(class purge, shards, repentance). What do sorc have going for them now again, especially in PvE?
But sorcs have two seperate heals pets last time I checked.
Two separate heals that both needs two slots(3 with overload) each to actually work well. So that's 2-6 slots gone for what a templar can do with 1 slot used. How is that balanced?
You forgot the part where one of those pets also has 10k health, dies from a sneeze and has a cast time to resummon. That moment when you're like "oh I'm just gonna use my OP selfheal!" and your Twilight just managed to die a few seconds before and instead you start summoning her and die in the middle of the cast...bowmanz607 wrote: »A mag sorc basically has a shield, surge, and dark magic. Surge is not always guaranteed and requires attacking another player. Dark magic requires attacking another player. The shield can operate as a full defensive ability when getting attacked hard. It can also operate as a buff right before going on the offensive giving a hard counter to attacks for a period of time while going full offensive. Overall, a competent sorc will proc surge often enough to make it semi-sustainable while also adding in the fact that many of the attacks used to get surge heals will also get you Dark magic heals making the heals more potent. Additionally, shields are a hard counter to all attacks and can can be used both to protect while going full offensive or to be spammed for full defense.
Wait...that's just not true ._. First of all, if this goes live, EVERYONE will have a shield. This'll make already unreliable Surge absolutely useless as a heal in Cyrodiil since shields cannot be crit. Dark Magic heal is laughable, it's like several % of your max health(it also only procs off 1 target even if your spell affects several) in Cyro.
PvP wise sorcs still will, however have Streak(Streak is love, Streak is life, Streak needs buffed to its former glory ) and Mines and ability to stack shields...this'll make good sorcs with good ping all the more annoying but it can be very bad for those of us that run >250-300 ping stably. Honestly though, it's not PvP that bothers me so much. Shields or not, at least sorcs still have Streak and Mines there so that's something special going for us. But PvE? ...yeah.
The points I made were directed at class skills. If you want to start pulling outside of class skills then fine, lets. Mag sorc have a whole skill line dedicated to heals called a rest staff. So there are your reliable heals. Additionally, Sorcs can stack 3 shields while others have one. So a sorc can apply a hot, shield stack and go offensive with all up for a short period of time before teapplying. Since these are available to all, the conversation was directed at class skills.
...not sure what your point is, my post was more about overall balance? Also commenting on the abilities you mentioned since you mentioned Surge as semi viable pvp heal. It already isn't and it definitely won't be with DB.2 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭bowmanz607 wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »its moved the sorc away from no skill to skill again. No longer will you have pug sorcs being better then you just on class design. Hopefully they move all classes to more skill and less class mechanic winning designs.
THIS, finally someone gets it.
Us OG's that played sorc long before the 1.6 reroll craze have watched our class get ridiculed and attacked for months because of the terribad fotm rerolls using cheese templates.
The men will be separated from the boys now, and good riddance if you ask me. The good sorcs will stay, the bads will go away. And those of us that stay, wont really change to our opponents, we will be as strong as we ever were.
Agree. The thread should say "rip bad sorcs".
Except almost the classes stronger than sorcerer is still stronger. And most of the other classes have received buffs.
I wrote that in the context of reduced duration of hardened ward. Good sorcs won't be affected by the reduced duration in pvp, bad sorcs might. Every other magicka build getting the annulment buff is an issue for sorcs though. Can you imagine the outrage if annulment had been given a reflect mechanic instead, or a cloak mechanic?
I´d argue also above average sorcs are affected by this change.
Shields do run out consistently when fighting overly defensive players. It takes a while to take down anyone who has decided to go full turtle mode.
With this change you have to effectively reduce your offense on those players by 16% if you don´t let your guard down.
At the same time it has become easier for defensive players to turtle up because using harness on a magica build is no longer a tradeoff but a no brainer - so everyone´s gonna run with healing ward + harness + their classes other defensive abilities.
Combine that "passive" nerf to pressure sorc builds with the nerf to dawnbreaker and loss of detonation dmg for burst sorc setups they have effectively managed to nerf burst builds (taking away abilities) alongside sustained dmg ones (more time needed to keep defenses up).
I´m sure ppl will manage but i´m also certain it´s not the minor or nonissue some people make it out to be."Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously. Decreasing the duration of all damage shields to 6 seconds means that they are just as powerful for stopping high amounts of burst damage. However, there is now less safety with the decreased duration and more skill is required to activate damage shields at the correct time. If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time."
Makes all kinds of sense to me, not sure what's the problem here.
The problem is a NB for example does not let their guard down while playing offensively. Aswell as a templar or DK. They all have reliable high passive healing associated to their main DPS abilities.
If you have a reliable steady heal having reactionary defenses work (or an instant burstheal...).
However a sorc does not have that. Their defense is a shield with no reliable healing mechanics compared to other classes.
Which now results in sorc being the only class being 100% vulnerable when on the offense.
Alongside this sorcerers are the only class without access to strong DOT abilities (those reduce the need to be offensive constantly as they keep pressure on the enemy even while defensive abilities are casted) - as a consequence sorcerers need the highest offensive uptime to kill an enemy.
I agree that sorc burst builds were a little too potent (i have not played deto dawnbreaker myself as i don´t like 1 shotting ppl). But nerfing burst builds and then taking away the ability to constantly pressure aswell is a little over the top imho.
Why would a play a sorc now when i can just play my NB that has better burst, a better teleport, better CC and is safer to play at the same time?
I see your point and the perspective your coming from. I really do. However, you make it seem like sorcs are dead and gone. Your perspective also over glorifies the other classes while underselling the sorc.
A mag templar basically has BOL and jabs. BOL requires going full defensive in order to survive. Jabs, although a powerful attack when followed thru on, is still easily avoidable and spamming it will get you killed against a competent player. It requires a combination to properly execute the ability against a competent player. therefore, the heals are not necessarily guaranteed. Overall, a mag templar has to go full defensive to stay protected or full offense with one ability that can not be spammed against a good player making the heals sporadic.
A mag dk effectively has flame lash, wings, and burning embers. Both of these heals leave something to be desired. Additionally, both require attacking another player. wings are a solid hard counter to projectiles. Overall, one attack requires full offense to obtain. The other requires at least attacking once and can be purged making the heals sporadic.Wings are ineffective against melee and aoe while also having a short duration and projectile cap.
A mag nb essentially has swallow soul and sap essence. Both require the player to attack another player. Swallow soul was over performing and they were right to nerf that ability. However, although the dps was soild it still wasnt going to kill a player. Sap requires being fighting close to multiple enemies which makes it a risk/reward ability. Overall, swallow soul requires attacking another player, but is otherwise sustainable while leaving dps just low enough to not sway the outcome of a battle. Sap dps is alright, but to get the heals requires attacking multiple enemies which leaves the player vulnerable to attack.
A mag sorc basically has a shield, surge, and dark magic. Surge is not always guaranteed and requires attacking another player. Dark magic requires attacking another player. The shield can operate as a full defensive ability when getting attacked hard. It can also operate as a buff right before going on the offensive giving a hard counter to attacks for a period of time while going full offensive. Overall, a competent sorc will proc surge often enough to make it semi-sustainable while also adding in the fact that many of the attacks used to get surge heals will also get you Dark magic heals making the heals more potent. Additionally, shields are a hard counter to all attacks and can can be used both to protect while going full offensive or to be spammed for full defense.
In the end i give the nod to sorcs.
Sure atm sorcs stacking shields are a little over the top (if they stack them - i´ve never had issues with sorcs only using hardened when i played my stam or magblade).
Also agree magplar is in a similar position to sorc atm but atleast has reliable healing and ritual is a terrific spell after the changes coming up (templar always had and will always have problems bc of their class concept as a healer and how hard it is for ZOS to scale grp healing power correctly).
But to everything you elaborate add now the decreased time for shields and the accesability of shields for virtually every class / build combination.
That is what puts sorc from top (with stam DK and NB atm imo) to bottom of the list because they have unreliable/weak heals compared to other classes and loose the ability to shield and then go offensive.
If at all i play a magbuild at all next patch it will be a magblade. Most likely i´m gonna play stamblade or stamDK.
I´m playing all classes except for DK atm (or rather played). I never saw sorcs as OP as other people view them bc everything a sorc can do to you is absolutely predictable and overwhelming someone after telling them what´s coming is really hard.
Now these sorcs will have to reapply a shield every 5 casts resulting in a significant DPS loss. I don´t think ppl realise how bad that will be.Edited by Derra on 28 April 2016 21:03<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
Dixa✭✭✭✭this game is never going to be balanced in pvp unless they take the guild wars 2 approach or other games that truly separate it out from pve - pvp using it's own gear, it's own stats, and ways for the devs to tune abilities without affecting pve.
so these intense arguments over silliness are just...i don't want to say funny because you are DERAILING the conversation about what is going to be a serious pve performance hit for a class that doesn't do very well when not in overload.
there will always be a top and a bottom in pvp. always. get over it. you want balanced pvp? go play a dedicated pvp game. this is not it. WoW is not it. MANY mmorpg's are NOT IT, and your attempts to "make it so" are futile.
these hypotheticals "i can counter this with that and what if i hit this at this exact moment..." all bull. it's like listening to my 8 year old nephew try to recount the fight scene between the hulk and iron man in age of ultron and how if the hulk did this or iron man did that the fight would be over or gone this much longer. yes, you ALL sound THAT silly.
so stop. your feedback is useless if you can not remove your emotions from it, and pvp feedback is mostly useless from anyone who does not play all 4 classes in said activity IF you are attempting to talk about balance because you have NO REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE.
kthnx.1 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭bowmanz607 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »It's only a 14 sec difference lol most shields are gone or reapplied within 3 secs. Gotta look on the bright side atleast they didn't add a cast time to it or made it bashable, you guys will be over it after a week.
Just, for the record, 6 is 30% of 20, meaning it was a 70% nerf in duration. Please, tell me how a 70% nerf in anything is negligible. I'll wait...
Lol whens the last time you had a full 20 sec shield in any fight? Sorcs finaly get balanced and it's the end of the world, you guys will be alright
okay so first you try and pass it off as though it's not a change that really matters as "most shields are down within 3 seconds" then you try and claim sorcs got balanced with this change?. the duration change isn't a balance change it's just an annoyance that doesn't need to be in the game.
it is an attempt at a lazy fix to a real problem. no, people have been complaining about lazy half-assed fixes since the IC update, but when it's in relation to the sorc it's okay?. no get the *** outta here with that, these lazy fixes are not okay.
Read it however you want bro it's not even that serious of a nerf, I mean harness was given phys dmg mitigation too...no pleasing you people.
the changes to harness makes sorcs obsolete. i mean are you so blind that you can't see how giving magicka templars and magicka nightblades their own 'hardened ward' is detrimental to sorcs?.
i have already said many times. the changes to harness are bad. harness should not block physical attacks.
What? Hows that make sorcs obsolete every other class has one shield while sorcs have two. Last time I checked two donuts were better than one.
Last I checked every other class has reliable selfheals(and one of them even has an amazing escape ability that does not have a stacking cost increase) and spammable class damage skills.
If you give sorc those I'll be fairly happy with the overall change. Especially from a PvE perspective since shield stacking never had much point there.jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »It's also worth noting that there were many, many other changes to Sorcerers - not just the two listed in the first post. It may be worth looking at all the changes as a bigger picture, and remembering those while testing out the changes on the PTS.
As far as magicka sorcerers go all that was really changed was the spell absorption (still not worth slotting in normal circumstances) and the nerfs to wards (Sorcs can't afford another two slot loss for pets most of us are already gimped to 3 skills to match other classes in DPS). Everything else was classwide.
I'm a bit upset that the Sorcerers' unique all damage type shield is also now being given to all builds through the light armor and undaunted skill lines.
I'm not destroyed by the 6 second time frame, 10 would be a better compromise, but I'd survive with 6.
And with everyone in PvP now running a damage shield Surge is more useless than it was before.
I just see it as each class has a unique defense mechanic. Sorcs had their Ward, DKs had wings, NB had cloak, and Temps had BoL.
Now everyone has a damage shield comparable to a Sorcs Ward, so what is my unique defense?
I can't even run away from the fight with streak without it costing me 2 arms and 2 legs.
Just curious as to why it was decided that full damage shields would be given to all classes?
And your outrage at BoL getting nerfed last DLC was where?
Templars got free Major Mending in its place and no one took away their unique support skills(class purge, shards, repentance). What do sorc have going for them now again, especially in PvE?
But sorcs have two seperate heals pets last time I checked.
Two separate heals that both needs two slots(3 with overload) each to actually work well. So that's 2-6 slots gone for what a templar can do with 1 slot used. How is that balanced?
You forgot the part where one of those pets also has 10k health, dies from a sneeze and has a cast time to resummon. That moment when you're like "oh I'm just gonna use my OP selfheal!" and your Twilight just managed to die a few seconds before and instead you start summoning her and die in the middle of the cast...bowmanz607 wrote: »A mag sorc basically has a shield, surge, and dark magic. Surge is not always guaranteed and requires attacking another player. Dark magic requires attacking another player. The shield can operate as a full defensive ability when getting attacked hard. It can also operate as a buff right before going on the offensive giving a hard counter to attacks for a period of time while going full offensive. Overall, a competent sorc will proc surge often enough to make it semi-sustainable while also adding in the fact that many of the attacks used to get surge heals will also get you Dark magic heals making the heals more potent. Additionally, shields are a hard counter to all attacks and can can be used both to protect while going full offensive or to be spammed for full defense.
Wait...that's just not true ._. First of all, if this goes live, EVERYONE will have a shield. This'll make already unreliable Surge absolutely useless as a heal in Cyrodiil since shields cannot be crit. Dark Magic heal is laughable, it's like several % of your max health(it also only procs off 1 target even if your spell affects several) in Cyro.
PvP wise sorcs still will, however have Streak(Streak is love, Streak is life, Streak needs buffed to its former glory ) and Mines and ability to stack shields...this'll make good sorcs with good ping all the more annoying but it can be very bad for those of us that run >250-300 ping stably. Honestly though, it's not PvP that bothers me so much. Shields or not, at least sorcs still have Streak and Mines there so that's something special going for us. But PvE? ...yeah.
The points I made were directed at class skills. If you want to start pulling outside of class skills then fine, lets. Mag sorc have a whole skill line dedicated to heals called a rest staff. So there are your reliable heals. Additionally, Sorcs can stack 3 shields while others have one. So a sorc can apply a hot, shield stack and go offensive with all up for a short period of time before teapplying. Since these are available to all, the conversation was directed at class skills.
What is the point of stacking three shields when the first one is practically gone as soon as the third is up?
I think the new sorc meta will be: Stack Harness Magicka on top of the 8 second pet damage shield shield morph of conjured ward. The extra two seconds help with the mind numbing monotony, and minor intellect buff will help with sustain.
1 -
Hymzir✭✭✭✭✭
✭Templars got free Major Mending in its place and no one took away their unique support skills(class purge, shards, repentance). What do sorc have going for them now again, especially in PvE?
Let's keep the facts straight here... Templars did not get a free major mending - they traded a stronger, albeit more limited ability, for a weaker but more general ability. The old passive gave 30% extra healing while major gives only 25%. Templars also took a hit in Jab healing because it was reasoned, that the new major mending buff, would boost Jab healing. Provided that you were sitting in your circle that is. Templar players argued that that would not be an easy thing to keep up reliably ZOS said: "Tough...Deal with it.
The old buff also enabled some tactics that are no longer possible with the new version. Most people do prefer the new version, but some players preferred the old one. But that is the way things go - they change and you adapt. In the end most people came down on the side of considering the change a buff, but it was not free by any means.
Also ZOS is planning to take away the unique class purge from Templars in this update, so there is that one as well...1 -
Ender1310✭✭✭✭Had a v16 stamina redguard NB switched him to Magicka. Instantly i was able to advance in mealstrom arena. This is due to damage shields. That simple. Magicka characters are able to solo things in pve that I can't even imagine. Thats with two shields Harness and healing ward. Its not balanced. In Pvp even with the shield nerfs Magicka characters are able to have so much more survivibility with the two shields never mind sorcs. The point of this is to make you choose right now there is too much synergy and you have it too good. That simple. I have seen both sides..with that said my stamina character hits really really hard with the extra survivability I would like to see the damage tuned a bit.0 -
cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »Conjured Ward: Reduced the duration of this ability and the Hardened Ward morph to 6 seconds from 20 seconds.
Empowered Ward (Conjured Ward morph): Reduced the duration of this morph to 8 seconds from 20 seconds.
Idk what to say..
Oh no... Sorc will take a slight bit of skill to put out damage while being uncritable with a 30-50k effective health pool? *legasp*
Well, sorcs have always required skill while you just don't seem to use your brain at all.
LOL....MagSorcs have always been an easy mode faceroll keyboard class and everyone knows it. Now they just have to faceroll the keyboard more often but its still easy mode compared to other classes. Get real....
Just as you should, next patch every single class will outperform sorcs in every way, the only thing a sorc can do is get 10k more shields while having next to no healing, while all other classes will be able to easily faceroll their keyboard now while easily getting heals in. As in your words, get real, sorcs are dead and NB's are even more OP this next patch.Edited by cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO on 29 April 2016 08:20R.I.P. Daranth Spellborn
VR16 Dunmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
He was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood
Wrobel wrote: Surge is now more effective for tank characters.
Because crit tanks are so good, LOL. xD0 -
Rylana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »It's also worth noting that there were many, many other changes to Sorcerers - not just the two listed in the first post. It may be worth looking at all the changes as a bigger picture, and remembering those while testing out the changes on the PTS.
i did, and the ward change is the only one i take issue with. i believe a far more reasonable change is 10 sec and 12 sec, the way it is now is just far far far to much of a reduction
That's fair. Shields as a whole is something that got changed so it's worth trying these out (maybe even in Cyrodiil against other players) to see how it feels. We'll be publishing individual feedback threads for all the classes in a bit, and you can post your thoughts there after giving it a test run.
@ZOS_GinaBruno The issue here isn't the duration, infact this duration puts even more pressure on Sorcerers to keep their shields up to prevent being one shotted.
It's that they completely negate crit, if you made the critable this would allow other classes to fight at full power without feeling like they just got gimped by a person with a bubble.
The fact that you are also giving shields to all classes clearly points to your team stubbornly refusing to acknowledge this big problem being solved with a tiny fix. Infact a lot of issues for people with shields would be solved by making them crittable.
Or...
Git some health. Git some inpen. Git some healing. Git some stamina...
In other words, paradigm shift from the ridiculous sorc cheese min/max FOTM template and realize that the game has other stats in addition to the size of the magicka pool.
30k health 18k stam 39k magicka Lyzara has become the new meta. Always ahead of the curve. That health is also the reason why when all other sorcs cried about shieldbreaker, i said wtf? I dont even use harness, it gets even sillier from there. So many bad bad bad sorcs out there that slapped together max magicka, max shields, yolo.
It amuses me. Fundamental building and not pulling cookie cutter off a website or video makes for stronger characters. Theres a reason why theorycrafters tend to be the best players, we actually understand mechanics and arent just button mashing with an i-win setup someone else created
PROTIP - If youre seriously running a 45k+ magicka and sub 12k stam/20k health build in cyrodiil, i consider you completely stupid, no matter the class. Literally asking for it.
but I digress, im gonna giggle all day when this hits live, as all the fotm 1.6 sorcs finally disappear back into oblivion. I shall remain behind as will my OG brethren.Edited by Rylana on 29 April 2016 10:09@rylanadionysis == Closed Beta Tester October 2013 == Retired October 2016 == Uninstalled @ One Tamriel Release == Inactive Indefinitely
Ebonheart Pact: Lyzara Dionysis - Sorc - AR 37 (Former Empress of Blackwater Blade and Haderus) == Shondra Dionysis - Temp - AR 23 == Arrianaya Dionysis - DK - AR 17
Aldmeri Dominion: Rylana Dionysis - DK - AR 25 == Kailiana - NB - AR 21 == Minerva Dionysis - Temp - AR 21 == Victoria Dionysis - Sorc - AR 13
Daggerfall Covenant: Dannika Dionysis - DK - AR 21 == The Catman Rises - Temp - AR 15 (Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade)
Forum LOL Champion (retired) == Black Belt in Ballista-Fu == The Last Vice Member == Praise Cheesus == Electro-Goblin1 -
Feynn✭✭✭
Git some health. Git some inpen. Git some healing. Git some stamina...
In other words, paradigm shift from the ridiculous sorc cheese min/max FOTM template and realize that the game has other stats in addition to the size of the magicka pool.
True, there is also spell damage
Jokes aside, you are still thinking of this only in PvP terms. I agree that in PvP your toon needs to be more well-rounded, but in PvE especially as a Sorcerer you need to min/max to a certain extent in order to bring your DPS up to your group's accepted standards. And Sorcerers still struggle on this, the only way they can keep up is through Overload (when it doesn't bugs out) and a full Molag Kena set (which not everyone has, thanks to RNG). Sorcerers do so well in vMA (some elite Sorcerers, at least, not all of us out there) thanks to Overload and mostly to Hardened Ward. The class has been nerfed massively, there's no arguing with that. These changes are not about asking Sorcerers to adapt their playstyle to take advantage of new options and possibilities, they are just about reducing the effectiveness of the class.Join us on Stormhaven RP! The largest TESO roleplay community of the Daggerfall Covenant, EU Megaserver.0 -
Force-Siphon✭✭✭✭LolThe one and only Force Siphon - PVP Sorc NA
1 man zerg
twitch.tv/forcesiphon1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »It's also worth noting that there were many, many other changes to Sorcerers - not just the two listed in the first post. It may be worth looking at all the changes as a bigger picture, and remembering those while testing out the changes on the PTS.
i did, and the ward change is the only one i take issue with. i believe a far more reasonable change is 10 sec and 12 sec, the way it is now is just far far far to much of a reduction
That's fair. Shields as a whole is something that got changed so it's worth trying these out (maybe even in Cyrodiil against other players) to see how it feels. We'll be publishing individual feedback threads for all the classes in a bit, and you can post your thoughts there after giving it a test run.
@ZOS_GinaBruno The issue here isn't the duration, infact this duration puts even more pressure on Sorcerers to keep their shields up to prevent being one shotted.
It's that they completely negate crit, if you made the critable this would allow other classes to fight at full power without feeling like they just got gimped by a person with a bubble.
The fact that you are also giving shields to all classes clearly points to your team stubbornly refusing to acknowledge this big problem being solved with a tiny fix. Infact a lot of issues for people with shields would be solved by making them crittable.
Or...
Git some health. Git some inpen. Git some healing. Git some stamina...
In other words, paradigm shift from the ridiculous sorc cheese min/max FOTM template and realize that the game has other stats in addition to the size of the magicka pool.
30k health 18k stam 39k magicka Lyzara has become the new meta. Always ahead of the curve. That health is also the reason why when all other sorcs cried about shieldbreaker, i said wtf? I dont even use harness, it gets even sillier from there. So many bad bad bad sorcs out there that slapped together max magicka, max shields, yolo.
It amuses me. Fundamental building and not pulling cookie cutter off a website or video makes for stronger characters. Theres a reason why theorycrafters tend to be the best players, we actually understand mechanics and arent just button mashing with an i-win setup someone else created
PROTIP - If youre seriously running a 45k+ magicka and sub 12k stam/20k health build in cyrodiil, i consider you completely stupid, no matter the class. Literally asking for it.
but I digress, im gonna giggle all day when this hits live, as all the fotm 1.6 sorcs finally disappear back into oblivion. I shall remain behind as will my OG brethren.
Found the build with no reg.
Seriously i´m gonna check back when you´ve actually played solo/smallscale with 6s shields and realized that you´re unable to finish off people without exposing yourself.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭People seem to forget that sorcs will have to burn through shields more often because many/most magicka builds will run Annulment.
Dampen Magic (Hardened Ward sized shield) on my magicka NB will be awesome, this means that you have the option to mitigate dmg without relying soley on Cloak. The people who played a sorc probably know that Annulment wont pull you out of stealth like Hardened Ward or Healing Ward does.
PC - EU (AD)Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer0 -
Haquor✭✭✭✭✭Sorcs do need the shield more than other classes which is why people are so upset about it. I mean as a templar or nb or dk the only shield i use is healing ward on the nb. Because on the other classes i have other utility skills or heals.
Sorc dont have reliable heals, cloaks, reflects, fears, saps that give more defence to other classes. Hardened ward was basically the only instant defensive ability worth a dam to a sorc in pvp that could be cast and left alone.
Yes it will still absorb the same amount of damage. But with good manouverability and offence often that shield will stay up longer than 6 seconds taking damage from a few sources and it expiring due to time was one less thing to worry about in the short term.
I can uderstand the dissapointment. But i also only play with 1 shield and hardened is on both bars. So im kinda used to the recast
0 -
Caza99✭✭✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »It's also worth noting that there were many, many other changes to Sorcerers - not just the two listed in the first post. It may be worth looking at all the changes as a bigger picture, and remembering those while testing out the changes on the PTS.
i did, and the ward change is the only one i take issue with. i believe a far more reasonable change is 10 sec and 12 sec, the way it is now is just far far far to much of a reduction
That's fair. Shields as a whole is something that got changed so it's worth trying these out (maybe even in Cyrodiil against other players) to see how it feels. We'll be publishing individual feedback threads for all the classes in a bit, and you can post your thoughts there after giving it a test run.
@ZOS_GinaBruno The issue here isn't the duration, infact this duration puts even more pressure on Sorcerers to keep their shields up to prevent being one shotted.
It's that they completely negate crit, if you made the critable this would allow other classes to fight at full power without feeling like they just got gimped by a person with a bubble.
The fact that you are also giving shields to all classes clearly points to your team stubbornly refusing to acknowledge this big problem being solved with a tiny fix. Infact a lot of issues for people with shields would be solved by making them crittable.
Or...
Git some health. Git some inpen. Git some healing. Git some stamina...
In other words, paradigm shift from the ridiculous sorc cheese min/max FOTM template and realize that the game has other stats in addition to the size of the magicka pool.
30k health 18k stam 39k magicka Lyzara has become the new meta. Always ahead of the curve. That health is also the reason why when all other sorcs cried about shieldbreaker, i said wtf? I dont even use harness, it gets even sillier from there. So many bad bad bad sorcs out there that slapped together max magicka, max shields, yolo.
It amuses me. Fundamental building and not pulling cookie cutter off a website or video makes for stronger characters. Theres a reason why theorycrafters tend to be the best players, we actually understand mechanics and arent just button mashing with an i-win setup someone else created
PROTIP - If youre seriously running a 45k+ magicka and sub 12k stam/20k health build in cyrodiil, i consider you completely stupid, no matter the class. Literally asking for it.
but I digress, im gonna giggle all day when this hits live, as all the fotm 1.6 sorcs finally disappear back into oblivion. I shall remain behind as will my OG brethren.
Found the build with no reg.
Seriously i´m gonna check back when you´ve actually played solo/smallscale with 6s shields and realized that you´re unable to finish off people without exposing yourself.
I couldn't help but giggle at this...Rylana please don't expose yourself to finish people off.PC NA - @MercerESO1 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »It's also worth noting that there were many, many other changes to Sorcerers - not just the two listed in the first post. It may be worth looking at all the changes as a bigger picture, and remembering those while testing out the changes on the PTS.
i did, and the ward change is the only one i take issue with. i believe a far more reasonable change is 10 sec and 12 sec, the way it is now is just far far far to much of a reduction
That's fair. Shields as a whole is something that got changed so it's worth trying these out (maybe even in Cyrodiil against other players) to see how it feels. We'll be publishing individual feedback threads for all the classes in a bit, and you can post your thoughts there after giving it a test run.
@ZOS_GinaBruno The issue here isn't the duration, infact this duration puts even more pressure on Sorcerers to keep their shields up to prevent being one shotted.
It's that they completely negate crit, if you made the critable this would allow other classes to fight at full power without feeling like they just got gimped by a person with a bubble.
The fact that you are also giving shields to all classes clearly points to your team stubbornly refusing to acknowledge this big problem being solved with a tiny fix. Infact a lot of issues for people with shields would be solved by making them crittable.
Or...
Git some health. Git some inpen. Git some healing. Git some stamina...
In other words, paradigm shift from the ridiculous sorc cheese min/max FOTM template and realize that the game has other stats in addition to the size of the magicka pool.
30k health 18k stam 39k magicka Lyzara has become the new meta. Always ahead of the curve. That health is also the reason why when all other sorcs cried about shieldbreaker, i said wtf? I dont even use harness, it gets even sillier from there. So many bad bad bad sorcs out there that slapped together max magicka, max shields, yolo.
It amuses me. Fundamental building and not pulling cookie cutter off a website or video makes for stronger characters. Theres a reason why theorycrafters tend to be the best players, we actually understand mechanics and arent just button mashing with an i-win setup someone else created
PROTIP - If youre seriously running a 45k+ magicka and sub 12k stam/20k health build in cyrodiil, i consider you completely stupid, no matter the class. Literally asking for it.
but I digress, im gonna giggle all day when this hits live, as all the fotm 1.6 sorcs finally disappear back into oblivion. I shall remain behind as will my OG brethren.
Care to post a quick link to your build or a description? I only managed about 10K Stam and 23K health with 38K Magicka. I'm curious how you did this, and how the spell damage looks.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »It's also worth noting that there were many, many other changes to Sorcerers - not just the two listed in the first post. It may be worth looking at all the changes as a bigger picture, and remembering those while testing out the changes on the PTS.
i did, and the ward change is the only one i take issue with. i believe a far more reasonable change is 10 sec and 12 sec, the way it is now is just far far far to much of a reduction
That's fair. Shields as a whole is something that got changed so it's worth trying these out (maybe even in Cyrodiil against other players) to see how it feels. We'll be publishing individual feedback threads for all the classes in a bit, and you can post your thoughts there after giving it a test run.
@ZOS_GinaBruno The issue here isn't the duration, infact this duration puts even more pressure on Sorcerers to keep their shields up to prevent being one shotted.
It's that they completely negate crit, if you made the critable this would allow other classes to fight at full power without feeling like they just got gimped by a person with a bubble.
The fact that you are also giving shields to all classes clearly points to your team stubbornly refusing to acknowledge this big problem being solved with a tiny fix. Infact a lot of issues for people with shields would be solved by making them crittable.
Or...
Git some health. Git some inpen. Git some healing. Git some stamina...
In other words, paradigm shift from the ridiculous sorc cheese min/max FOTM template and realize that the game has other stats in addition to the size of the magicka pool.
30k health 18k stam 39k magicka Lyzara has become the new meta. Always ahead of the curve. That health is also the reason why when all other sorcs cried about shieldbreaker, i said wtf? I dont even use harness, it gets even sillier from there. So many bad bad bad sorcs out there that slapped together max magicka, max shields, yolo.
It amuses me. Fundamental building and not pulling cookie cutter off a website or video makes for stronger characters. Theres a reason why theorycrafters tend to be the best players, we actually understand mechanics and arent just button mashing with an i-win setup someone else created
PROTIP - If youre seriously running a 45k+ magicka and sub 12k stam/20k health build in cyrodiil, i consider you completely stupid, no matter the class. Literally asking for it.
but I digress, im gonna giggle all day when this hits live, as all the fotm 1.6 sorcs finally disappear back into oblivion. I shall remain behind as will my OG brethren.
Found the build with no reg.
Seriously i´m gonna check back when you´ve actually played solo/smallscale with 6s shields and realized that you´re unable to finish off people without exposing yourself.
I couldn't help but giggle at this...Rylana please don't expose yourself to finish people off.
Oh damn. I knew not being a native speaker/writer would come bite me in the behind one day.
What a dirty mind you have
<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »It's also worth noting that there were many, many other changes to Sorcerers - not just the two listed in the first post. It may be worth looking at all the changes as a bigger picture, and remembering those while testing out the changes on the PTS.
i did, and the ward change is the only one i take issue with. i believe a far more reasonable change is 10 sec and 12 sec, the way it is now is just far far far to much of a reduction
That's fair. Shields as a whole is something that got changed so it's worth trying these out (maybe even in Cyrodiil against other players) to see how it feels. We'll be publishing individual feedback threads for all the classes in a bit, and you can post your thoughts there after giving it a test run.
@ZOS_GinaBruno The issue here isn't the duration, infact this duration puts even more pressure on Sorcerers to keep their shields up to prevent being one shotted.
It's that they completely negate crit, if you made the critable this would allow other classes to fight at full power without feeling like they just got gimped by a person with a bubble.
The fact that you are also giving shields to all classes clearly points to your team stubbornly refusing to acknowledge this big problem being solved with a tiny fix. Infact a lot of issues for people with shields would be solved by making them crittable.
Or...
Git some health. Git some inpen. Git some healing. Git some stamina...
In other words, paradigm shift from the ridiculous sorc cheese min/max FOTM template and realize that the game has other stats in addition to the size of the magicka pool.
30k health 18k stam 39k magicka Lyzara has become the new meta. Always ahead of the curve. That health is also the reason why when all other sorcs cried about shieldbreaker, i said wtf? I dont even use harness, it gets even sillier from there. So many bad bad bad sorcs out there that slapped together max magicka, max shields, yolo.
It amuses me. Fundamental building and not pulling cookie cutter off a website or video makes for stronger characters. Theres a reason why theorycrafters tend to be the best players, we actually understand mechanics and arent just button mashing with an i-win setup someone else created
PROTIP - If youre seriously running a 45k+ magicka and sub 12k stam/20k health build in cyrodiil, i consider you completely stupid, no matter the class. Literally asking for it.
but I digress, im gonna giggle all day when this hits live, as all the fotm 1.6 sorcs finally disappear back into oblivion. I shall remain behind as will my OG brethren.
Found the build with no reg.
Seriously i´m gonna check back when you´ve actually played solo/smallscale with 6s shields and realized that you´re unable to finish off people without exposing yourself.
I couldn't help but giggle at this...Rylana please don't expose yourself to finish people off.
Oh damn. I knew not being a native speaker/writer would come bite me in the behind one day.
What a dirty mind you have
Well, I'm sure it would be very effective against some people though...... xDR.I.P. Daranth Spellborn
VR16 Dunmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
He was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood
Wrobel wrote: Surge is now more effective for tank characters.
Because crit tanks are so good, LOL. xD0 -
Jsmalls✭✭✭✭✭
✭bowmanz607 wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »its moved the sorc away from no skill to skill again. No longer will you have pug sorcs being better then you just on class design. Hopefully they move all classes to more skill and less class mechanic winning designs.
THIS, finally someone gets it.
Us OG's that played sorc long before the 1.6 reroll craze have watched our class get ridiculed and attacked for months because of the terribad fotm rerolls using cheese templates.
The men will be separated from the boys now, and good riddance if you ask me. The good sorcs will stay, the bads will go away. And those of us that stay, wont really change to our opponents, we will be as strong as we ever were.
Agree. The thread should say "rip bad sorcs".
Except almost the classes stronger than sorcerer is still stronger. And most of the other classes have received buffs.
I wrote that in the context of reduced duration of hardened ward. Good sorcs won't be affected by the reduced duration in pvp, bad sorcs might. Every other magicka build getting the annulment buff is an issue for sorcs though. Can you imagine the outrage if annulment had been given a reflect mechanic instead, or a cloak mechanic?
I´d argue also above average sorcs are affected by this change.
Shields do run out consistently when fighting overly defensive players. It takes a while to take down anyone who has decided to go full turtle mode.
With this change you have to effectively reduce your offense on those players by 16% if you don´t let your guard down.
At the same time it has become easier for defensive players to turtle up because using harness on a magica build is no longer a tradeoff but a no brainer - so everyone´s gonna run with healing ward + harness + their classes other defensive abilities.
Combine that "passive" nerf to pressure sorc builds with the nerf to dawnbreaker and loss of detonation dmg for burst sorc setups they have effectively managed to nerf burst builds (taking away abilities) alongside sustained dmg ones (more time needed to keep defenses up).
I´m sure ppl will manage but i´m also certain it´s not the minor or nonissue some people make it out to be."Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously. Decreasing the duration of all damage shields to 6 seconds means that they are just as powerful for stopping high amounts of burst damage. However, there is now less safety with the decreased duration and more skill is required to activate damage shields at the correct time. If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time."
Makes all kinds of sense to me, not sure what's the problem here.
The problem is a NB for example does not let their guard down while playing offensively. Aswell as a templar or DK. They all have reliable high passive healing associated to their main DPS abilities.
If you have a reliable steady heal having reactionary defenses work (or an instant burstheal...).
However a sorc does not have that. Their defense is a shield with no reliable healing mechanics compared to other classes.
Which now results in sorc being the only class being 100% vulnerable when on the offense.
Alongside this sorcerers are the only class without access to strong DOT abilities (those reduce the need to be offensive constantly as they keep pressure on the enemy even while defensive abilities are casted) - as a consequence sorcerers need the highest offensive uptime to kill an enemy.
I agree that sorc burst builds were a little too potent (i have not played deto dawnbreaker myself as i don´t like 1 shotting ppl). But nerfing burst builds and then taking away the ability to constantly pressure aswell is a little over the top imho.
Why would a play a sorc now when i can just play my NB that has better burst, a better teleport, better CC and is safer to play at the same time?
I see your point and the perspective your coming from. I really do. However, you make it seem like sorcs are dead and gone. Your perspective also over glorifies the other classes while underselling the sorc.
A mag templar basically has BOL and jabs. BOL requires going full defensive in order to survive. Jabs, although a powerful attack when followed thru on, is still easily avoidable and spamming it will get you killed against a competent player. It requires a combination to properly execute the ability against a competent player. therefore, the heals are not necessarily guaranteed. Overall, a mag templar has to go full defensive to stay protected or full offense with one ability that can not be spammed against a good player making the heals sporadic.
A mag dk effectively has flame lash, wings, and burning embers. Both of these heals leave something to be desired. Additionally, both require attacking another player. wings are a solid hard counter to projectiles. Overall, one attack requires full offense to obtain. The other requires at least attacking once and can be purged making the heals sporadic.Wings are ineffective against melee and aoe while also having a short duration and projectile cap.
A mag nb essentially has swallow soul and sap essence. Both require the player to attack another player. Swallow soul was over performing and they were right to nerf that ability. However, although the dps was soild it still wasnt going to kill a player. Sap requires being fighting close to multiple enemies which makes it a risk/reward ability. Overall, swallow soul requires attacking another player, but is otherwise sustainable while leaving dps just low enough to not sway the outcome of a battle. Sap dps is alright, but to get the heals requires attacking multiple enemies which leaves the player vulnerable to attack.
A mag sorc basically has a shield, surge, and dark magic. Surge is not always guaranteed and requires attacking another player. Dark magic requires attacking another player. The shield can operate as a full defensive ability when getting attacked hard. It can also operate as a buff right before going on the offensive giving a hard counter to attacks for a period of time while going full offensive. Overall, a competent sorc will proc surge often enough to make it semi-sustainable while also adding in the fact that many of the attacks used to get surge heals will also get you Dark magic heals making the heals more potent. Additionally, shields are a hard counter to all attacks and can can be used both to protect while going full offensive or to be spammed for full defense.
In the end i give the nod to sorcs.
You literally just stated the problem we are having right now.
Surge is unreliable, and borderline USELESS with this new "every build has a shield meta" (noncrittable). So our only reliable defense is, drumroll.... Ward. Every class now has that defense. So in other words we quite literally don't have a unique defense, like every other class has. (I'm sorry pets don't count I refuse to gimp my bar on both sides for a heal that can die...)
Bad Sorcs are distracted by the 6 seconds, those Sorcs that have been adapting since 1.6 think it's BS that EVERY class is being given our class defining defense ability.
If they want to go through with this massively BUFF dark exchange, that can be our new class defining ability.Edited by Jsmalls on 29 April 2016 16:360 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭[ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »It's also worth noting that there were many, many other changes to Sorcerers - not just the two listed in the first post. It may be worth looking at all the changes as a bigger picture, and remembering those while testing out the changes on the PTS.
i did, and the ward change is the only one i take issue with. i believe a far more reasonable change is 10 sec and 12 sec, the way it is now is just far far far to much of a reduction
That's fair. Shields as a whole is something that got changed so it's worth trying these out (maybe even in Cyrodiil against other players) to see how it feels. We'll be publishing individual feedback threads for all the classes in a bit, and you can post your thoughts there after giving it a test run.
@ZOS_GinaBruno The issue here isn't the duration, infact this duration puts even more pressure on Sorcerers to keep their shields up to prevent being one shotted.
It's that they completely negate crit, if you made the critable this would allow other classes to fight at full power without feeling like they just got gimped by a person with a bubble.
The fact that you are also giving shields to all classes clearly points to your team stubbornly refusing to acknowledge this big problem being solved with a tiny fix. Infact a lot of issues for people with shields would be solved by making them crittable.
Or...
Git some health. Git some inpen. Git some healing. Git some stamina...
In other words, paradigm shift from the ridiculous sorc cheese min/max FOTM template and realize that the game has other stats in addition to the size of the magicka pool.
30k health 18k stam 39k magicka Lyzara has become the new meta. Always ahead of the curve. That health is also the reason why when all other sorcs cried about shieldbreaker, i said wtf? I dont even use harness, it gets even sillier from there. So many bad bad bad sorcs out there that slapped together max magicka, max shields, yolo.
It amuses me. Fundamental building and not pulling cookie cutter off a website or video makes for stronger characters. Theres a reason why theorycrafters tend to be the best players, we actually understand mechanics and arent just button mashing with an i-win setup someone else created
PROTIP - If youre seriously running a 45k+ magicka and sub 12k stam/20k health build in cyrodiil, i consider you completely stupid, no matter the class. Literally asking for it.
but I digress, im gonna giggle all day when this hits live, as all the fotm 1.6 sorcs finally disappear back into oblivion. I shall remain behind as will my OG brethren.
Found the build with no reg.
Seriously i´m gonna check back when you´ve actually played solo/smallscale with 6s shields and realized that you´re unable to finish off people without exposing yourself.
Pretty sure that's the point. Now you need to decide between offense or defense at crucial moments. So sorry you can't go full offensive while being full defensive at the same time. People run around in light armor right now without shields to finish people off with. We go in and sacrifice defense for 9ffesnsive capabilities. Stop acting like Sorcs are some weak pathetic bunch that drops in a second from the wind blowing without shields up. Every mag user that is not a sorc does that every fight. Add more health. Add imoen. Add resistance. Slot mutagen. Increase healthis recovery. There are ways around your issue. If you can't fight without having a shield up 24/7 than your just not that good.1 -
cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Dekkameron wrote: »As a stam sorc i welcome these changes
Stam sorcs welcome anything that doesn't negatively affect them though.... :PR.I.P. Daranth Spellborn
VR16 Dunmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
He was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood
Wrobel wrote: Surge is now more effective for tank characters.
Because crit tanks are so good, LOL. xD1 -
dagonbeer✭✭✭bowmanz607 wrote: »I see your point and the perspective your coming from. I really do. However, you make it seem like sorcs are dead and gone. Your perspective also over glorifies the other classes while underselling the sorc.
A mag templar basically has BOL and jabs. BOL requires going full defensive in order to survive. Jabs, although a powerful attack when followed thru on, is still easily avoidable and spamming it will get you killed against a competent player. It requires a combination to properly execute the ability against a competent player. therefore, the heals are not necessarily guaranteed. Overall, a mag templar has to go full defensive to stay protected or full offense with one ability that can not be spammed against a good player making the heals sporadic.
A mag dk effectively has flame lash, wings, and burning embers. Both of these heals leave something to be desired. Additionally, both require attacking another player. wings are a solid hard counter to projectiles. Overall, one attack requires full offense to obtain. The other requires at least attacking once and can be purged making the heals sporadic.Wings are ineffective against melee and aoe while also having a short duration and projectile cap.
A mag nb essentially has swallow soul and sap essence. Both require the player to attack another player. Swallow soul was over performing and they were right to nerf that ability. However, although the dps was soild it still wasnt going to kill a player. Sap requires being fighting close to multiple enemies which makes it a risk/reward ability. Overall, swallow soul requires attacking another player, but is otherwise sustainable while leaving dps just low enough to not sway the outcome of a battle. Sap dps is alright, but to get the heals requires attacking multiple enemies which leaves the player vulnerable to attack.
A mag sorc basically has a shield, surge, and dark magic. Surge is not always guaranteed and requires attacking another player. Dark magic requires attacking another player. The shield can operate as a full defensive ability when getting attacked hard. It can also operate as a buff right before going on the offensive giving a hard counter to attacks for a period of time while going full offensive. Overall, a competent sorc will proc surge often enough to make it semi-sustainable while also adding in the fact that many of the attacks used to get surge heals will also get you Dark magic heals making the heals more potent. Additionally, shields are a hard counter to all attacks and can can be used both to protect while going full offensive or to be spammed for full defense.
In the end i give the nod to sorcs.
All four of my levelled toons are magicka so I'll just focus on those. I like them all equally, just sad to see one of them in hard times (well, he's gone to join the dk in hard times.) So in terms of unique survival skills,
Templars have:
-cleanses (ok, it's nerfed a bit now, but still cheaper than purge with way more utility) which also provides easy major mending and snare and decent HoT
-jabs heal, which is nerfed too, but you still have major mending. Also a strong spammable.
-BoL
-tempted to talk about radiant oppression, but we're talking about survival abilities here...ah what the hell, I mentioned it.
DKs:
-what you said. I don't think they're in great shape in PvP right now. However, Battle Roar is huge and needs to be mentioned.
Nbs:
-Funnel and sap
-fear
Sorcs:
-Don't think the healing from dark magic deserves to be mentioned. Even if you have 30k health, that's 1200 healing per cast. You cast maybe on average 1 dark magic spell every 5 seconds? That's pitiful healing.
-so basically just surge.
Edited by dagonbeer on 29 April 2016 18:190 -
cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭bowmanz607 wrote: »I see your point and the perspective your coming from. I really do. However, you make it seem like sorcs are dead and gone. Your perspective also over glorifies the other classes while underselling the sorc.
A mag templar basically has BOL and jabs. BOL requires going full defensive in order to survive. Jabs, although a powerful attack when followed thru on, is still easily avoidable and spamming it will get you killed against a competent player. It requires a combination to properly execute the ability against a competent player. therefore, the heals are not necessarily guaranteed. Overall, a mag templar has to go full defensive to stay protected or full offense with one ability that can not be spammed against a good player making the heals sporadic.
A mag dk effectively has flame lash, wings, and burning embers. Both of these heals leave something to be desired. Additionally, both require attacking another player. wings are a solid hard counter to projectiles. Overall, one attack requires full offense to obtain. The other requires at least attacking once and can be purged making the heals sporadic.Wings are ineffective against melee and aoe while also having a short duration and projectile cap.
A mag nb essentially has swallow soul and sap essence. Both require the player to attack another player. Swallow soul was over performing and they were right to nerf that ability. However, although the dps was soild it still wasnt going to kill a player. Sap requires being fighting close to multiple enemies which makes it a risk/reward ability. Overall, swallow soul requires attacking another player, but is otherwise sustainable while leaving dps just low enough to not sway the outcome of a battle. Sap dps is alright, but to get the heals requires attacking multiple enemies which leaves the player vulnerable to attack.
A mag sorc basically has a shield, surge, and dark magic. Surge is not always guaranteed and requires attacking another player. Dark magic requires attacking another player. The shield can operate as a full defensive ability when getting attacked hard. It can also operate as a buff right before going on the offensive giving a hard counter to attacks for a period of time while going full offensive. Overall, a competent sorc will proc surge often enough to make it semi-sustainable while also adding in the fact that many of the attacks used to get surge heals will also get you Dark magic heals making the heals more potent. Additionally, shields are a hard counter to all attacks and can can be used both to protect while going full offensive or to be spammed for full defense.
In the end i give the nod to sorcs.
All four of my levelled toons are magicka so I'll just focus on those. I like them all equally, just sad to see one of them in hard times (well, he's gone to join the dk in hard times.) So in terms of unique survival skills,
Templars have:
-cleanses (ok, it's nerfed a bit now, but still cheaper than purge with way more utility) which also provides easy major mending and snare and decent HoT
-jabs heal, which is nerfed too, but you still have major mending. Also a strong spammable.
-BoL
-tempted to talk about radiant oppression, but we're talking about survival abilities here...ah what the hell, I mentioned it.
DKs:
-what you said. I don't think they're in great shape in PvP right now. However, Battle Roar is huge and needs to be mentioned.
Nbs:
-Funnel and sap
-fear
Sorcs:
-Don't think the healing from dark magic deserves to be mentioned. Even if you have 30k health, that's 1200 healing per cast. You cast maybe on average 1 dark magic spell every 5 seconds? That's pitiful healing.
-so basically just surge.
Don't forget that surge only procs on crits, which will be non-existant now that everyone and their mothers will be running shields in PvP, lol.R.I.P. Daranth Spellborn
VR16 Dunmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
He was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood
Wrobel wrote: Surge is now more effective for tank characters.
Because crit tanks are so good, LOL. xD0 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭bowmanz607 wrote: »I see your point and the perspective your coming from. I really do. However, you make it seem like sorcs are dead and gone. Your perspective also over glorifies the other classes while underselling the sorc.
A mag templar basically has BOL and jabs. BOL requires going full defensive in order to survive. Jabs, although a powerful attack when followed thru on, is still easily avoidable and spamming it will get you killed against a competent player. It requires a combination to properly execute the ability against a competent player. therefore, the heals are not necessarily guaranteed. Overall, a mag templar has to go full defensive to stay protected or full offense with one ability that can not be spammed against a good player making the heals sporadic.
A mag dk effectively has flame lash, wings, and burning embers. Both of these heals leave something to be desired. Additionally, both require attacking another player. wings are a solid hard counter to projectiles. Overall, one attack requires full offense to obtain. The other requires at least attacking once and can be purged making the heals sporadic.Wings are ineffective against melee and aoe while also having a short duration and projectile cap.
A mag nb essentially has swallow soul and sap essence. Both require the player to attack another player. Swallow soul was over performing and they were right to nerf that ability. However, although the dps was soild it still wasnt going to kill a player. Sap requires being fighting close to multiple enemies which makes it a risk/reward ability. Overall, swallow soul requires attacking another player, but is otherwise sustainable while leaving dps just low enough to not sway the outcome of a battle. Sap dps is alright, but to get the heals requires attacking multiple enemies which leaves the player vulnerable to attack.
A mag sorc basically has a shield, surge, and dark magic. Surge is not always guaranteed and requires attacking another player. Dark magic requires attacking another player. The shield can operate as a full defensive ability when getting attacked hard. It can also operate as a buff right before going on the offensive giving a hard counter to attacks for a period of time while going full offensive. Overall, a competent sorc will proc surge often enough to make it semi-sustainable while also adding in the fact that many of the attacks used to get surge heals will also get you Dark magic heals making the heals more potent. Additionally, shields are a hard counter to all attacks and can can be used both to protect while going full offensive or to be spammed for full defense.
In the end i give the nod to sorcs.
All four of my levelled toons are magicka so I'll just focus on those. I like them all equally, just sad to see one of them in hard times (well, he's gone to join the dk in hard times.) So in terms of unique survival skills,
Templars have:
-cleanses (ok, it's nerfed a bit now, but still cheaper than purge with way more utility) which also provides easy major mending and snare and decent HoT
-jabs heal, which is nerfed too, but you still have major mending. Also a strong spammable.
-BoL
-tempted to talk about radiant oppression, but we're talking about survival abilities here...ah what the hell, I mentioned it.
DKs:
-what you said. I don't think they're in great shape in PvP right now. However, Battle Roar is huge and needs to be mentioned.
Nbs:
-Funnel and sap
-fear
Sorcs:
-Don't think the healing from dark magic deserves to be mentioned. Even if you have 30k health, that's 1200 healing per cast. You cast maybe on average 1 dark magic spell every 5 seconds? That's pitiful healing.
-so basically just surge.
You fail to mention shields for sorc. You know the strongest hard counter survival tool for a class. You also mention fear. We are not talking about a cc. Also, it is important to remember how the heals by each class is recieved. Only sorcs have a hard counter to all attacks. Next would be temos. One big difference here is that a temp when cc can't heal. A sorcs shield can save a cc sorc.0 -
cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭bowmanz607 wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »I see your point and the perspective your coming from. I really do. However, you make it seem like sorcs are dead and gone. Your perspective also over glorifies the other classes while underselling the sorc.
A mag templar basically has BOL and jabs. BOL requires going full defensive in order to survive. Jabs, although a powerful attack when followed thru on, is still easily avoidable and spamming it will get you killed against a competent player. It requires a combination to properly execute the ability against a competent player. therefore, the heals are not necessarily guaranteed. Overall, a mag templar has to go full defensive to stay protected or full offense with one ability that can not be spammed against a good player making the heals sporadic.
A mag dk effectively has flame lash, wings, and burning embers. Both of these heals leave something to be desired. Additionally, both require attacking another player. wings are a solid hard counter to projectiles. Overall, one attack requires full offense to obtain. The other requires at least attacking once and can be purged making the heals sporadic.Wings are ineffective against melee and aoe while also having a short duration and projectile cap.
A mag nb essentially has swallow soul and sap essence. Both require the player to attack another player. Swallow soul was over performing and they were right to nerf that ability. However, although the dps was soild it still wasnt going to kill a player. Sap requires being fighting close to multiple enemies which makes it a risk/reward ability. Overall, swallow soul requires attacking another player, but is otherwise sustainable while leaving dps just low enough to not sway the outcome of a battle. Sap dps is alright, but to get the heals requires attacking multiple enemies which leaves the player vulnerable to attack.
A mag sorc basically has a shield, surge, and dark magic. Surge is not always guaranteed and requires attacking another player. Dark magic requires attacking another player. The shield can operate as a full defensive ability when getting attacked hard. It can also operate as a buff right before going on the offensive giving a hard counter to attacks for a period of time while going full offensive. Overall, a competent sorc will proc surge often enough to make it semi-sustainable while also adding in the fact that many of the attacks used to get surge heals will also get you Dark magic heals making the heals more potent. Additionally, shields are a hard counter to all attacks and can can be used both to protect while going full offensive or to be spammed for full defense.
In the end i give the nod to sorcs.
All four of my levelled toons are magicka so I'll just focus on those. I like them all equally, just sad to see one of them in hard times (well, he's gone to join the dk in hard times.) So in terms of unique survival skills,
Templars have:
-cleanses (ok, it's nerfed a bit now, but still cheaper than purge with way more utility) which also provides easy major mending and snare and decent HoT
-jabs heal, which is nerfed too, but you still have major mending. Also a strong spammable.
-BoL
-tempted to talk about radiant oppression, but we're talking about survival abilities here...ah what the hell, I mentioned it.
DKs:
-what you said. I don't think they're in great shape in PvP right now. However, Battle Roar is huge and needs to be mentioned.
Nbs:
-Funnel and sap
-fear
Sorcs:
-Don't think the healing from dark magic deserves to be mentioned. Even if you have 30k health, that's 1200 healing per cast. You cast maybe on average 1 dark magic spell every 5 seconds? That's pitiful healing.
-so basically just surge.
You fail to mention shields for sorc. You know the strongest hard counter survival tool for a class. You also mention fear. We are not talking about a cc. Also, it is important to remember how the heals by each class is recieved. Only sorcs have a hard counter to all attacks. Next would be temos. One big difference here is that a temp when cc can't heal. A sorcs shield can save a cc sorc.
Well, every class will have a shield next patch, so it's really a non-issue that sorcs got a shield.R.I.P. Daranth Spellborn
VR16 Dunmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
He was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood
Wrobel wrote: Surge is now more effective for tank characters.
Because crit tanks are so good, LOL. xD4 -
MoreDino✭✭✭And every class has access to heals via resto staff/vigor. I'm not seeing your point.0
