Let's talk about gap close spamming.

Huggalump

READ FIRST: THE GOAL IS BALANCE. We all can make every character ranged or melee. This isn't about nerfing you and buffing me. It's about finding balance, which can help save the game.

Nothing in the game makes me alt-f4 faster than getting Ambush spammed to death by two nightblades. An ability that gap closes and roots and empowers the next ability and does ok damage and is instant cast. You can't escape even for a second, so there's no counter play. This is a poor design.

Listen. I'm a stam sorc and I've been trying to make a pvp bow focused build work for a long time. Now I can't say for certain because I still have only 250 champion points (that's what doing only pvp gets you...), but I'm starting to think a bow focused build simply does not work in this game for the sole reason that gap closers are spammable and do so much damage.

I've even been 1v1ed by guys who literally do nothing but spam critical rush. Using magnum shot, bombard, snipe, poison injection, weaving light/medium attacks, shuffle, bolt, and lightening form. He used critical rush. Even with the self healing of critical surge, I couldn't keep up.

It was a problem for magic sorcs to blink endlessly. Why isn't it also a problem for melee to gap close with high damage endlessly? Gap closers should get you in range so you can do your damage. It shouldn't kill the target for you.

I would suggest one of two things:

1) The obvious option of adding an increased cost on each gap closer used, like bolt and dodge rolling.

OR

2) Make gap closers that have higher utility with lower damage (if any damage). Have gap closers put a slow debuff on the enemy or a speed buff on yourself. This will allow gap closers to get you in range, then stay in range to do some actual damage.

The second is my preferred option. It would give melee more utility, which makes their builds more fun. But it also allows the possibility of counter play, which makes them also more fun to play against.

Omgwtfbbq321

Gap closers would be fine, if they had a counter.

Allow me to pop a immovable pot and be on my way and I will have no problem with the gap closers.

As it stands, not even an emp can get away from endless SpamBush and related attacks.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

Agreed, gap closer shouldn't be a reliable source of dealing damage. Especially not when they come with additional utility (empower, knockdown, root, you name it).

As for the counter, someone from ZOS said that they'll remove the root and put a snare on you instead... not sure how that will turn out, but sounds better than not being able to move at all.

GreenSoup2HoT

I personally believe gap closer's should have some sort of immunity applied to their target. This way you will never see 20 guy's "gap close" on one target instantly killing them.

If there was some type of immunity, you would see much more "1v1's" and smaller fight's happening. Why? Once i gap close onto someone, no one else will. It will be just me and the target i closed on.

Other player's could simply run over and assist but i think this would be a big step in the right direction. Or 1 other player could gap close on me and now's it's a 2v1, this is a scenario a lot of player's actually like, it challenge's you for your decision to jump in.

If you have 10 people vs 10 people. There would be a fun trade off, some would jump in and some would not. You would have so many little engagement's that the fight would not be that one sided (varies of course).

I think this would also give ranged player's a little more room to kite. If i'm sniping and someone gap close's on me when im far away, it is now a 1v1 between me and that player. This would be very interesting.

This is not a perfect system by any mean's. However i would much rather this that what we have now.

arcantonias

every gap closer has a minimum range with the exception of ambush. this means you cant spam critical rush, shield assault, toppling charge if you are already in melee range of people. if a sorc blinks away 3 times or a nightblade cloaks only to reveal himself later i should be able to gap close him again. it is their choice to try and kite. the only issue i see is spambush.

oibam

Huggalump wrote: »

Nothing in the game makes me alt-f4 faster than getting Ambush spammed to death by two nightblades.

1vs2 - nerf, so I can win

Huggalump

arcantonias wrote: »

every gap closer has a minimum range with the exception of ambush. this means you cant spam critical rush, shield assault, toppling charge if you are already in melee range of people. if a sorc blinks away 3 times or a nightblade cloaks only to reveal himself later i should be able to gap close him again. it is their choice to try and kite. the only issue i see is spambush.

good post. That's something I didn't consider, as I'm a bow build and I'm always at range :P

I'm not sure if that changes how I feel about gap closers, but I'd definitely like to see what other people think.

And seems we still agree on that damn spambush haha

nordsavage

Minimum distance like all the other gap closers. Problem solved.

Huggalump

oibam wrote: »

Huggalump wrote: »

Nothing in the game makes me alt-f4 faster than getting Ambush spammed to death by two nightblades.

1vs2 - nerf, so I can win

not even close to the point I was making.

Nothing in the game makes me alt-f4 faster than getting Ambush spammed to death by two nightblades...You can't escape even for a second, so there's no counter play

Huggalump

nordsavage wrote: »

Minimum distance like all the other gap closers. Problem solved.

I'm not sure if that's enough if we're just talking about ambush. The problem is we need to get away for a moment to reposition or have the possibilty of escaping. But as ambush is spammable, does decent damage, and has a root, there is no counter play. It's too many effects tagged onto one ability

Laggus

Theres still way too many Sorcs able to bolt & shield multiple times consecutively for gap closers not to be able to do damage (non-crit too against shields remember). I don't see how a slow debuff would work with bolt escape either.

The problem with changing the gap closers would not be Stamina Sorcs but Magicka ones. I don't see an easy way of balancing one type without making the other OP as hell.

Ambush needs a minimum distance applied. I think most people would agree except apparently ZOS. I went bow build because of this alone (was a melee build) and receive hate tells almost daily since from the same l33t NBs that do nothing but spam this in my face. Will see how their suggested fix for gap closers works in the next major release as promised (not hopeful though). Make other classes attractive to use again.

skckzeybek

Well i am playing mag/sta hybrid templar and I've been a victim of one red nightblade (later two red nightblades) in imperial sewers yesterday, and all he did was fear me and spambushed me down. That isnt funny. I use almost all my skills in bar. From structural entropy over vulcanic rune to puncturing sweep. last but not least my execution skill overpressing that he blocked resisted well or sth. else, healed up, and interrupted me finally. He had only 19k Health, so what is going on with these nightblades? Because my gear (armor and weapon) is v16 legendary and well enchanted. In my opinion the costs of ambush should be 2.5times higher same to blink of sorcerer. It doesnt makes sense to be stunned every 5seconds or immunity duration have to be high enough. Eventually we need a balancing in the spaming of roll to dodge manier. Always what I can see live is: how a stamina pvp nightblade is rolling 30time across the battlefield and go in vanish until he can start his spambush attacks.

nordsavage

Huggalump wrote: »

nordsavage wrote: »

Minimum distance like all the other gap closers. Problem solved.

I'm not sure if that's enough if we're just talking about ambush. The problem is we need to get away for a moment to reposition or have the possibilty of escaping. But as ambush is spammable, does decent damage, and has a root, there is no counter play. It's too many effects tagged onto one ability

OK then change the stun/root to snare instead like what was done to 2h Stampede then give it a minimum distance. Problem solved

Huggalump

nordsavage wrote: »

Huggalump wrote: »

nordsavage wrote: »

Minimum distance like all the other gap closers. Problem solved.

I'm not sure if that's enough if we're just talking about ambush. The problem is we need to get away for a moment to reposition or have the possibilty of escaping. But as ambush is spammable, does decent damage, and has a root, there is no counter play. It's too many effects tagged onto one ability

OK then change the stun/root to snare instead like what was done to 2h Stampede then give it a minimum distance. Problem solved

completely agree

Huggalump

Laggus wrote: »

Theres still way too many Sorcs able to bolt & shield multiple times consecutively for gap closers not to be able to do damage (non-crit too against shields remember). I don't see how a slow debuff would work with bolt escape either.

The problem with changing the gap closers would not be Stamina Sorcs but Magicka ones. I don't see an easy way of balancing one type without making the other OP as hell.

Ambush needs a minimum distance applied. I think most people would agree except apparently ZOS. I went bow build because of this alone (was a melee build) and receive hate tells almost daily since from the same l33t NBs that do nothing but spam this in my face. Will see how their suggested fix for gap closers works in the next major release as promised (not hopeful though). Make other classes attractive to use again.

yeah, magicka sorcs with shield spamming is a whole other can of worms. I completely agree that it's a problem. I mean, on one hand they need it because it's their only defense. On the other hand, it's a horribly boring mechanic to play as and to play against. If there is a gap close rework, I'm sure other things (specifically magicka sorc) will need readjusting as well. But again, that's a different issue for a different thread.

I'm also waiting for the balance rework. I'm optimistic, so we'll see how that works out for me... O_O


EDIT: Judging by replies, Ambush is the main concern people have with gap closers.

SeventhCelestial

I personally don't get Ambush spam as a Mag NB. My main bar, has my Ambush, Cloak, Swallow Soul, Fear and Drain Essence on it. I use every one of these skills, but I would say I use Swallow Soul the most as I weave with my Destro. If I have to close gap I'll cloak and ambush, fear, drain essence and repeat with some weaving here and there. Ambush spam has never worked for me, seeing that my best Crit is typically always the Cloak/Ambush then from there it's not worth it.

That makes me feel that if this is a serious problem for the Stam Sorcs (I see a lot of Stam Sorcs complain about this topic actually) or any other built then I agree that ZoS should raise the cost of the ability as they did with Dodge rolling. I'd admit I love it when I have a buddy on and we Ambush a guy at the same time getting a x2 hit between the both of us, but the two of us to just hit there hitting one button over and over, when you can Fear and Drain them and watch them squirm...? Hm I know which one I pick every time.

Ghosted

gap close immunity sounds interesting, an increased cost in resource like streak and dodge could also be a solution. The issue I see in small scale pvp is big groups of players spamming one skill on one or a few players. That goes for gap closers, buffs, debuffs, snares, AoE ect.

Don't really see a problem with a Sorc bolting away from me or a stamina build roll dodging away, if they are running that means I won the fight and can continue on to my objective. It's the groups spamming one ability that ruins the experience for me.

I'm coming from the side where I believe there should be escapability for players, if they use terrain or map area knowledge, to escape from groups of enemies. Gap closers make it extremely difficult at the moment, especially ambush because it has the ability to teleport onto rocks or to places where crit Rush and toppling charge cannot go.

I can pull off some hardcore parkour, only to be impeded by magic teleport strikes and what not

one question, does ZoS prefer us to spam one ability, if that's the case I will just slot wrecking blow on all my bars and call it a day, the 2nd wrecking B is 20% more powerful after you land the first one??? Seriously????

TheBonesXXX

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Agreed, gap closer shouldn't be a reliable source of dealing damage. Especially not when they come with additional utility (empower, knockdown, root, you name it).

As for the counter, someone from ZOS said that they'll remove the root and put a snare on you instead... not sure how that will turn out, but sounds better than not being able to move at all.

That means everything gets nerfed.

oibam

best: 1 class - 5 skills for all. then still people cry for nerf

TheBonesXXX

Huggalump wrote: »

READ FIRST: THE GOAL IS BALANCE. We all can make every character ranged or melee. This isn't about nerfing you and buffing me. It's about finding balance, which can help save the game.

Nothing in the game makes me alt-f4 faster than getting Ambush spammed to death by two nightblades. An ability that gap closes and roots and empowers the next ability and does ok damage and is instant cast. You can't escape even for a second, so there's no counter play. This is a poor design.

There are a lot of questionable designs in this game; just like Snipe+Autoattack stack from a MW DK and Crystal Frags damage out of stealth.


Listen. I'm a stam sorc and I've been trying to make a pvp bow focused build work for a long time. Now I can't say for certain because I still have only 250 champion points (that's what doing only pvp gets you...), but I'm starting to think a bow focused build simply does not work in this game for the sole reason that gap closers are spammable and do so much damage.

Then you need to learn how to pop that Boundless and stay 23 meters away from your enemy.

I've even been 1v1ed by guys who literally do nothing but spam critical rush. Using magnum shot, bombard, snipe, poison injection, weaving light/medium attacks, shuffle, bolt, and lightening form. He used critical rush. Even with the self healing of critical surge, I couldn't keep up.

Unfortunately Archery is pigeonholed into certain niche roles, it works great when you have proper elevation levels.

It was a problem for magic sorcs to blink endlessly. Why isn't it also a problem for melee to gap close with high damage endlessly? Gap closers should get you in range so you can do your damage. It shouldn't kill the target for you.
Now your thread looks like a veiled nerf NB thread instead of addressing the issue, kiting is either too powerful or too weak.

I would suggest one of two things:

1) The obvious option of adding an increased cost on each gap closer used, like bolt and dodge rolling.

OR

2) Make gap closers that have higher utility with lower damage (if any damage). Have gap closers put a slow debuff on the enemy or a speed buff on yourself. This will allow gap closers to get you in range, then stay in range to do some actual damage.

The second is my preferred option. It would give melee more utility, which makes their builds more fun. But it also allows the possibility of counter play, which makes them also more fun to play against.

I'm not trying to be a turd, but this REALLY looks like a veiled nerf NB thread.

I don't like either of your suggestions, truthfully. My proposal would be this, let snares debuff the range of gap closers. Like Defile works for Healing, let Snares apply a % of the total range be cut in half on top of the slow, that also makes the Champion point in that ability useful.

Ashamray

Gap closers do have a counter. It's called roots. Ambush ignores roots (unique gap closer), and in my oponion ambush immobilizer should be deleted as micro stun of all gap closers.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Agreed, gap closer shouldn't be a reliable source of dealing damage. Especially not when they come with additional utility (empower, knockdown, root, you name it).

As for the counter, someone from ZOS said that they'll remove the root and put a snare on you instead... not sure how that will turn out, but sounds better than not being able to move at all.

That means everything gets nerfed.

How so? A minimum range requirement for Ambush would be sufficient, as has already been suggested.

Vangy

1) Fix stupid snare/stun gap closers have. (already underway by ZOS)
2) Give ambush min range

No to increase cost on consecutive use for gap closers as they cannot be spammed unless your target is running away from you like a headless chicken. Yes. (hint --> use cc/snare before you try to run). Also u can do cool stuff like curse>streak>mines then wait for gap close spammer to rush into your mines and slap him on the face with crystal shards and watch them go blooop into the ground.

Morozov

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Huggalump wrote: »

READ FIRST: THE GOAL IS BALANCE. We all can make every character ranged or melee. This isn't about nerfing you and buffing me. It's about finding balance, which can help save the game.

Nothing in the game makes me alt-f4 faster than getting Ambush spammed to death by two nightblades. An ability that gap closes and roots and empowers the next ability and does ok damage and is instant cast. You can't escape even for a second, so there's no counter play. This is a poor design.

There are a lot of questionable designs in this game; just like Snipe+Autoattack stack from a MW DK and Crystal Frags damage out of stealth.


Listen. I'm a stam sorc and I've been trying to make a pvp bow focused build work for a long time. Now I can't say for certain because I still have only 250 champion points (that's what doing only pvp gets you...), but I'm starting to think a bow focused build simply does not work in this game for the sole reason that gap closers are spammable and do so much damage.

Then you need to learn how to pop that Boundless and stay 23 meters away from your enemy.

I've even been 1v1ed by guys who literally do nothing but spam critical rush. Using magnum shot, bombard, snipe, poison injection, weaving light/medium attacks, shuffle, bolt, and lightening form. He used critical rush. Even with the self healing of critical surge, I couldn't keep up.

Unfortunately Archery is pigeonholed into certain niche roles, it works great when you have proper elevation levels.

It was a problem for magic sorcs to blink endlessly. Why isn't it also a problem for melee to gap close with high damage endlessly? Gap closers should get you in range so you can do your damage. It shouldn't kill the target for you.
Now your thread looks like a veiled nerf NB thread instead of addressing the issue, kiting is either too powerful or too weak.

I would suggest one of two things:

1) The obvious option of adding an increased cost on each gap closer used, like bolt and dodge rolling.

OR

2) Make gap closers that have higher utility with lower damage (if any damage). Have gap closers put a slow debuff on the enemy or a speed buff on yourself. This will allow gap closers to get you in range, then stay in range to do some actual damage.

The second is my preferred option. It would give melee more utility, which makes their builds more fun. But it also allows the possibility of counter play, which makes them also more fun to play against.

I'm not trying to be a turd, but this REALLY looks like a veiled nerf NB thread.

I don't like either of your suggestions, truthfully. My proposal would be this, let snares debuff the range of gap closers. Like Defile works for Healing, let Snares apply a % of the total range be cut in half on top of the slow, that also makes the Champion point in that ability useful.

so, im gonna have to agree with @nordsavage on this one. The thread isn't a veild nerf NB tread, the problem is gap closer spam. Its been done with Ambush, but it can also be done with Crit rush. Just spamspamspamspamspamspamspam...dead opponent whos character gets locked down because of the mechanics of a gap closer and cant use abilities to counter/escape. That's the issue.

nord said it....minimum distance. No need to change abilities or CP or percentages of whatever. Make a gap closer a GAP closer. Once the gap is closed, use other abilities.

SturgeHammer

I can't see a whole lot changing about gap closers in the future, so it may be more appropriate to ask for buffs to bow abilities instead. Magum Shot/Draing Shot needs a range buff (22m) and damage buff to make it a more effective counter to melee dps builds.

tplink3r1

LOL, people want melee to be nerfed even more?

timidobserver

I do not agree with the unavoidable cc that all gap closers apply but, other than that, I am okay with gap closer spamming. Hard to keep up with a fleeing Sorc any other way. I would be okay with removing the minimum range from all gap closers but also removing the mini cc.

cschwingeb14_ESO

It's several separate issues:

1) Ambush spam (talked to death already. minimum range...done)

2) Kite vs counter-kite does not exist in this game like it does in most other MMOs (I don't count tree-humping, because that works in melee-vs-melee too). It's due to gap-closers not having a cooldown. I don't want a cooldown, just pointing out the flaw

3) Gap closers do way too much damage/CC or cost too little resources. This was a design decision that came from having only 5 bar slots I assume. But right now there is not enough downside to spamming a gap closer

IMO gap closers need to have their costs revised and increased according to what they do. Just about all charge abilities are insanely good, and we'd spam them if there wasn't a minimum range.

We'll see what ZOS does

skckzeybek

Ghosted wrote: »

... It's the groups spamming one ability that ruins the experience for me.

Point.

Ghosted wrote: »

... Gap closers make it extremely difficult at the moment, especially ambush because it has the ability to teleport onto rocks or to places where crit Rush and toppling charge cannot go.

Thats true

Vynist

I agree that gap closers are too spammable.

Having them increase in cost like dodge roll would make people think twice about spamming crit rush. This might give bow more utility as the sole damage weapon.

NOTE: This would make sorcs even stronger, so I honestly think bolt should be looked at again IF this is implemented.

Jsmalls

oibam wrote: »

Huggalump wrote: »

Nothing in the game makes me alt-f4 faster than getting Ambush spammed to death by two nightblades.

1vs2 - nerf, so I can win

This comment made me so angry...

So 2 players spammimg one button should beat a player running through the majority of their abilities on both bars... There has to be some skill gap in the game or there would be no reason to better yourself.

If it's two players running through their rotations vs 1 player than yeah, they should have an advantage, but 2 people spamming one button shouldn't be successful.