Let's talk about gap close spamming.

FriedEggSandwich

I would have absolutely no issue with any kind of gap closer spam, ambush included, if the mini-stun was completely removed. Why? Because I could simply turn around and fight back. The gap-closer mini-stun currently prevents me from doing this though, it prevents me from doing anything. Remove gap-closer mini-stun and most of the ambush spam qq would stop.

Angus

Huggalump wrote: »

Nothing in the game makes me alt-f4 faster than getting Ambush spammed to death by two nightblades.

Almost as ineffective of a way to learn counters as QQ'ing on a forum is.

Huggalump wrote: »

Listen. I'm a stam sorc and I've been trying to make a pvp bow focused build work for a long time.... I'm starting to think a bow focused build simply does not work in this game for the sole reason that gap closers are spammable and do so much damage.

Every build has a counter. You met yours. If you can't make an arbitrary build work the way you want it to, try a different build.

Huggalump wrote: »

I've even been 1v1ed by guys who literally do nothing but spam critical rush.... Even with the self healing of critical surge, I couldn't keep up.

Break LoS, or block, or dodge, or stay close so they can't crit rush, or knock them back, or buff your armor... there's plenty of options.

Huggalump wrote: »

Why isn't it also a problem for melee to gap close with high damage endlessly?

Because the game's gap closers don't do comparatively high damage when compared with other skills. If you're repeatedly letting an opponent get hits on you with max-distance critical rushes (which do hit moderately hard), that's a L2P issue.

Huggalump wrote: »

Gap closers should get you in range so you can do your damage. It shouldn't kill the target for you.

Why not? Even light attacks kill targets.

If the point is that it shouldn't be a primary damage output - then why not? Could make for some interesting utility builds. Regardless, as things are now, they aren't.

Huggalump wrote: »

1) The obvious option of adding an increased cost on each gap closer used, like bolt and dodge rolling.

Why should anyone be penalized for gap closing two (or more) people successively?

Huggalump wrote: »

2) Make gap closers that have higher utility with lower damage (if any damage). Have gap closers put a slow debuff on the enemy or a speed buff on yourself. This will allow gap closers to get you in range, then stay in range to do some actual damage.

That's how one branch of morphs work. The other offers more damage, but it's a tradeoff since the move or follow-up move for morphs giving buffs have to be properly played.

Tankqull

arcantonias wrote: »

every gap closer has a minimum range with the exception of ambush. this means you cant spam critical rush, shield assault, toppling charge if you are already in melee range of people. if a sorc blinks away 3 times or a nightblade cloaks only to reveal himself later i should be able to gap close him again. it is their choice to try and kite. the only issue i see is spambush.

that is BS sorry. you can spam any closer by simply keep your backstep key pressed while chargeing, you land at ~3m range one half step back and you are out of the lockout range befor your ability CD is gone.

Mojmir

Don't bolt,then there's no gap.

Draxys

Gap closers need to target the area where the enemy player is and not the enemy. This mechanic already exists for skills like dragon leap, so it's not something they have to invent. This would allow gap closers to go off and not bug out, while not putting a completely unfair and unbalanced 100% snare on the enemy player.

Cathexis

Mojmir wrote: »

Don't bolt,then there's no gap.

Telling sorcs not to bolt is like telling nightblades not to cloak or dks and temps not to heal.

Pvping is not standing still playing shot for shot.


The problem with gap closers is the gap closer stun. It simply makes the game not worth playing (I just come here now to keep up with patches - if they fix it I'll come play again but I'm not going to play this game while that sort of *** remains implemented).

Lifecode666

Add Cooldown on all gapclosers or make it so it drain more juice if you spam it on one target within a certain timeframe

Fixed

Alferino

Huggalump wrote: »

READ FIRST: THE GOAL IS BALANCE. We all can make every character ranged or melee. This isn't about nerfing you and buffing me. It's about finding balance, which can help save the game.

Nothing in the game makes me alt-f4 faster than getting Ambush spammed to death by two nightblades. An ability that gap closes and roots and empowers the next ability and does ok damage and is instant cast. You can't escape even for a second, so there's no counter play. This is a poor design.

Listen. I'm a stam sorc and I've been trying to make a pvp bow focused build work for a long time. Now I can't say for certain because I still have only 250 champion points (that's what doing only pvp gets you...), but I'm starting to think a bow focused build simply does not work in this game for the sole reason that gap closers are spammable and do so much damage.

I've even been 1v1ed by guys who literally do nothing but spam critical rush. Using magnum shot, bombard, snipe, poison injection, weaving light/medium attacks, shuffle, bolt, and lightening form. He used critical rush. Even with the self healing of critical surge, I couldn't keep up.

It was a problem for magic sorcs to blink endlessly. Why isn't it also a problem for melee to gap close with high damage endlessly? Gap closers should get you in range so you can do your damage. It shouldn't kill the target for you.

I would suggest one of two things:

1) The obvious option of adding an increased cost on each gap closer used, like bolt and dodge rolling.

OR

2) Make gap closers that have higher utility with lower damage (if any damage). Have gap closers put a slow debuff on the enemy or a speed buff on yourself. This will allow gap closers to get you in range, then stay in range to do some actual damage.

The second is my preferred option. It would give melee more utility, which makes their builds more fun. But it also allows the possibility of counter play, which makes them also more fun to play against.

Tbh i feel like if ambush and lotus fan worked like every other gap closer and couldnt be spammed (hada minimum range to be able to use, like crit rush) it would be fine
i also think that you shouldnt get that small cc from a gap closer before it hits, nothing annoys me more than being stuck in 1 spot when someone hasnt even hit me with there gap closer yet

SmalltalkJava

All teleport skills are hokey. Why have ranged and melee skills when you can teleport ad nauseam.

Didgerion

Huggalump wrote: »

READ FIRST: THE GOAL IS BALANCE. Nothing in the game makes me alt-f4 faster than getting Ambush spammed to death by two nightblades. An ability that gap closes and roots and empowers the next ability and does ok damage and is instant cast. You can't escape even for a second, so there's no counter play. This is a poor design.

What does alt+f4

Didgerion

Didgerion wrote: »

Huggalump wrote: »

READ FIRST: THE GOAL IS BALANCE. Nothing in the game makes me alt-f4 faster than getting Ambush spammed to death by two nightblades. An ability that gap closes and roots and empowers the next ability and does ok damage and is instant cast. You can't escape even for a second, so there's no counter play. This is a poor design.

What does alt+f4

Nvm just figured it out

Swernik

Ambush spam is the most annoying thing ever in the game, for me its even more annoying then a bit of lag.


Make the gap closers have a higher minimum range. So that you can only use it whenever you are further away then, lets say 6 meters or so.
I dont think the increased cost like dodge roll will help a lot. Usually there are 2 - 3 nightblades spamming it. With 5 or so ambush attacks you are dead (because you cant heal or anything during the spam) So that is only 2 attacks most per nightblade.

SmalltalkJava

Just remove gap closures. Teleport skills are just blah. I don't like the sorcs port and I don't like the melee(joke) ports. its like 100 The Flashes zooming around. Battle teleport skills are not needed, they never have been.

Joy_Division

First: Ambush is a trash skill because no minimum distance requirement
Second: the whole stun/root "fix" needs to go away.

That out of the way, I don't see an issue with gap closers Vs. range.

You bow has a range of 38 meters and I know snipe is even longer (45?). Gap closers are 22. Your bow has a passive that gives you major expedition. Your class also has a (good) skill that gives you access to major expedition. If you cannot keep the distance, that's your fault ... not the game's.

If a melee does close the gap on you ... do you really think it would be fair for your bow to outperform her melee weapon in close quarters combat? If it did...why ever use a melee weapon? This is why there is weapon swap. If you failed to keep your distance, you could always pull out your own melee weapon and fight just as well (this game, unlike most fantasy games, has no "primary" weapon). It sounds like to me use use magnum shot and then keep firing arrows, rather than use the disorient to escape/kite or swap to a more appropriate weapon.

Farorin

I personally think they are fine the way they are, that being said, I would still be happy if they did the increase cost for spamming it, or if they added some form of counter play against gap close spamming.

Anything to encourage players not to just spam one skill over and over is okay in my books, so long as it doesn't wreck it for us non-spammers.

dodgehopper_ESO

Not all gap closers are created equal. Chains and Toppling/Focused charge have problems. The problem with Ambush is that it is so good and doesn't break. Other gap closers have trouble with pathing at the least. One of the big issues as well are the way things are snaring. Even so, the chain pull for DK's is pretty terrible and has been so for a while. Toppling/focused charge has been a disaster for as long as I can remember.

dodgehopper_ESO

Please bear in mind as well, that while the main problem people complain about with gap closers has to do with Ambush, nerfing all the closers in general will take already broken skills (DK/Templar) and make them worse. Those same classes also have no mobility built in, and are reliant on some *** poor options to compete with Sorc/Nb escapes. They need to be very careful how they go about changing things if they create blanket ruination of Gap Closers. I do think that snares and roots are pretty strong considering the way they are treated as soft cc (and snares can't be purged anymore). I realize Forward Momentum and Immovable pots should help.

terrasight

Well...I'm a nightblade, but I've no problems with other blades and ambush. Or wrecking blow, or cloak...

I don't like self-healing DKs... ^^

Soneca798

Until some sort of stamina based attack is given to stam sorc critical rush remains my primary damage dealer alongside wrecking blow. I need crit rush, coupled with streak I think it can be used in a fun, unique way. Until zos gives stam sorcs some love I need crit rush to stay primarily as a high damage gap closer because it fits my setup and synergizes well with my class.

Brrrofski

Just get rid of the stun that wasn't there before.

Why is there a locking system? Is out be because the lag is so bad the game has to lock you in place to figure out where the closer is going end up?

Frawr

Put min range on spambush.

Prevent spambush while the nb is rooted (must break first).

Remove the stupid auto cc on gap closers designed 'to make then look right' ./facepalm. And do not replace with a snare.

My favourite suggestion here was the one about making all gap closers target an area rather than focus on the player. If the player moves away then the gap closer should bloody well miss.

BigTone

arcantonias wrote: »

every gap closer has a minimum range with the exception of ambush. this means you cant spam critical rush, shield assault, toppling charge if you are already in melee range of people. if a sorc blinks away 3 times or a nightblade cloaks only to reveal himself later i should be able to gap close him again. it is their choice to try and kite. the only issue i see is spambush.

Tge main problem I see is that the minimum range for crit rush is minuscule. Personally I agree with the OP that either make it's cost stack like roll dodge or cut the damage in half. A gap closer should mostly be used for utility, not insane damage.My buddy often brags about hitting 10k crit rushes and my ambush hits for ~9k. Also that fact that gap closer pull people out of cloak is ridiculous. Anytime I'm outnumbered I get gap close spammed, and it even happens with crit rush despite its minimum range.

Lorkhan

ambush is the problem. it doesnt need a minimal range and cant be dodge.
it should work like critical rush: dodgeble and requires distance to activate

BigTone

pogopwns_ESO wrote: »

A stam sorc has no right to complain about ambush. This means you, and certain streamers I won't name that people actually think are good, but they cry all the time when they get killed, because the game is broken if they can't 1vZerg, obviously. I shouldn't have to explain just how much more viable crit rush with crit surge is than ambush. It heals the *** out of you! I know what you're thinking."Wait, what? You can streak to create a gap AND cc at the same time, then crit rush to close the gap, healing yourself by doing it?!" Yes. Yes you can. "Can you also parse the animation on WB to make it hit faster with a light attack bump in between, and still hit someone with it from 15 meters away because they're running from you, even though the range is supposed to be 7 meters?" Again, yes. Yes you certainly can. "Does that heal you as well? While you have crit surge up, healing from DOING the damage, Not having as much need to stop damage and heal?" You guessed it. Yes. Unequivocally yes. "Does WB give an empower?" You catch on fast. Yes.
Go cry somewhere else please. If you as a stam sorc can't fight 2 nightblades, it's not because ambush is broken. It's because you need to change your tactics as a stam sorc. I have a level 30 stam dk with a 2h sword, and I can take out 2 v16 nightblades with almost nothing but crit rush and WB. And I dont even have the wonderous ability called crit surge! It really is amazing. A level 30! I really don't want to be condescending or mean, but I'm so tired of hearing the same QQ over ambush or "gap closing" when its really not that big of a deal, nor an imbalance. By the way, go out on your nb and ambush spam. It's not really instant. the animation makes it take about .5 - .75 second to impact and it does pretty low damage itself.
I have a v16 gank build stam nb, a v16 frag build magicka sorc, a v16 magicka sword/board templar healer, and a 30 stam dk burger flipper. I PvP on all of them pretty much equally. No nightblade(s) give me too many problems on any toon, but out of all of them, my nb is the most fragile and easiest to kill. And ambush spam is one of the easiest ways to get yourself killed as a nb. It's literally impractical to use unles your target runs away and you need to close the gap.
All that being said, I wouldn't be opposed to a min range, because it affects a GOOD nb not one bit. If you are at face range and you ambush you are BAD! Surprise attack is 100% better at face range than ambush, hands down.

Wait.

Stop the thread.

Hold up.

Is this guy serious? First he takes a weak shot at THE LORD and then he claims that a stam sorc is OP and should be able to easily take on two nightblades. Do you even PvP bro? Or has Fengrush owned you one too many times?

Takes-No-Prisoner

From my side of the fence;

I see NBs using this mainly as a 'panic' button when they have a hard time getting into the position they need to do melee damage. The solution to that is simply to adjust the camera speed so it spins around faster. Not a good choice for people that are prone to motion sickness. But that really helps out a lot.

I also see my targets play ring-around-the-obstacle with me a lot. For those targets, I will hit you with Teleport Strike more then once, since its more beneficial to me to get free damage if they are going to try to run away. If your gonna play that game with me, I will punish you for that.

If they nerfed the skill lines to have a min-range, make the min range 5~6m. Conceal and I think Surprise Attack has a range of 5m. If your close enough to be hitting them with this skill out of cloak, why would you use Teleport Strike that close? That is a serious question. I get Ambush has a empower buff, but the animation start up and cool down is long enough you can get almost 2 Concealed attacks off in that time. Not to mention if you look up the cost, it is more expensive to cast Teleport Strike+Morphs versus Veiled Strike + Morphs.

Therium104

Gap closers are fine and required for a melee character to be successful. Same applies to roots but the NB version is so overpowered it breaks the game. NB are a joke and anyone who plays them should be ashamed. NB must get a comprehensive nerf soon. The player base cannot take anymore. The time has come.

Jsmalls

Why can't every gap closer act like Streak, just instead of stunning everyone in the area in Stuns your target with a short HARD CC for 1.5 seconds that can be broken, and thus giving CC immunity. That gives you a chance to catch up without doing massive damage, and it can't be spammed to keep a player locked in place and unable to fight back.

I believe Streak is an ideal model that all other gap closers should follow. It's damage is noticeable but not significant, it has a penalty for being spammed, it cannot stun lock anyone without using up your Hard CC causing immunity, and its very reactive. And who has EVER complained about dying to Streak? Seriously.

fred.thomsonb16_ESO

If they got rid of the pre-root we would all have a better time, getting locked in place while the spammer is on his way to you is a joke; but don't forget! ZOS is fixing all the things!

Tryxus

Therium104 wrote: »

Gap closers are fine and required for a melee character to be successful. Same applies to roots but the NB version is so overpowered it breaks the game. NB are a joke and anyone who plays them should be ashamed. NB must get a comprehensive nerf soon. The player base cannot take anymore. The time has come.

Wait a moment, imma get a cup to collect and taste your QQ

Anyways

Gap Closers are a necessity for Stamina Melee builds to keep pressure on their enemy or to get closer to Bow/Magicka Users. But I believe the root before the Gap Closer connects should be gotten rid to make the skill more dodgeable.

In the case of Ambush, which is instant, how about applying the Major Empower buff only if the skill is used from stealth? That way the skill could be used as a normal Gap Closer in regular combat without taking away a StamBlade's melee options or gank abilities.

Xeniph

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

From my side of the fence;

I see NBs using this mainly as a 'panic' button when they have a hard time getting into the position they need to do melee damage. The solution to that is simply to adjust the camera speed so it spins around faster. Not a good choice for people that are prone to motion sickness. But that really helps out a lot.

I also see my targets play ring-around-the-obstacle with me a lot. For those targets, I will hit you with Teleport Strike more then once, since its more beneficial to me to get free damage if they are going to try to run away. If your gonna play that game with me, I will punish you for that.

If they nerfed the skill lines to have a min-range, make the min range 5~6m. Conceal and I think Surprise Attack has a range of 5m. If your close enough to be hitting them with this skill out of cloak, why would you use Teleport Strike that close? That is a serious question. I get Ambush has a empower buff, but the animation start up and cool down is long enough you can get almost 2 Concealed attacks off in that time. Not to mention if you look up the cost, it is more expensive to cast Teleport Strike+Morphs versus Veiled Strike + Morphs.

This guy gets it.