Lets talk about Vigor.

Lucky28

Knootewoot wrote: »

Vigor should only be available at alliance rank 30 and in cyrodill

why at 30?. I'm always in cyrodiil and am not even close to rank 30. and no, Stam users need something like Vigor in order to complete content like vet MA. take away Vigor and i don't think stamina users will ever be able to complete Vet MA.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Wow thread is still going on thought ZOS would have shut it down by now.

MrGigglypants

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Thought they should've kept it at the level it was at, yes you could still get it but it's insanely easy to get now. And I don't get how stamina users are healing on par with magicka users, sometimes better. I didn't see vigor being used until they basically made it available to everyone, on console that is. The problem with this move is you don't even have to spec any cp points into blessed or quick recovery for it to be great.

I've even tested it myself, the heal for it is ridiculous.

It's can crit is why. Though I'd take a stamp morph of bol healing ward hardened ward swallow or really any magic based skill that heals. If you can't DPS through a vigor that means your doing less than 2k DPS which is ***. AND that's assuming the person using vigor is well geared. I doubt people are using vigor without rolls cloaks flappies or cc involved to maintain themselves in pvp.

Lord-Otto

bardx86 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

What exactly is the big counterargument the "pro Vigor faction" has?


I remember moaning about 1.6 and how stamina hits so much harder and in BURSTS than Magicka. Has to do with champion points and stealth modifier and passives like med armor and Flawless Dawnbreaker. Back in those days, I've been told stamina is supposed to hit harder since it's lacking the healing of magicka. People babbled about "risk vs reward" and stuff like that.
Now, with Vigor giving stamina AT LEAST as much healing as magicka users, where is that justification now? Stamina still hits way harder and multiplies with sneak.

People now defend stamina with class abilities. Hey, that was a 1.0 problem! ZOS have acknowledged and given stamina morphs to many skills. There even is a "Stamina Sorc" now in this game, which sounds ABSURD to me, but let's not get too deep into that.
Anyway, some of those stamina morphs are even BETTER than their magicka counterpart. Gladly would I take a magicka version of Unstable Flames on my DK for more damage, as healing is cut. How often do you die in Cyrodiil to Lotus Fan spam? As for me, I always only see Ambush!
And above all, magicka users get a sh*tty destruction staff skill line which many casters abandon for increased DW spellpower. Abandoning light weaving, something staminas can do without drawbacks. Doesn't this already show magicka doesn't have a monopoly any more? No? Okay, what about our healing staff line? Unlike Vigor, we have to SLOT a frikkin' healing staff to get our heals! And staffs are weak! What do stamina users get? A near-completely useful 2H skill line and a high-damage DW skill line with the best AoE in the game. And a bow. Give me a magicka morph of Wrecking Blow and Steel Tornado, and then we can talk about equality!

Finally, after going through all instances, stamina users are grasping for straws and claiming having to pay everything with their main resource. Um, hello? Have I hit my head to hard or what? Isn't that an ADVANTAGE???
Look, magicka DK vampire here. 1200 magicka regen, ~600 stamina. My magicka recharges TWICE as fast as my stamina. I would happily break free or sprint with my magicka, as I simply have much more of that!
Further, when you ask people how to beat a Sorcerer without Shield Breaker, the answer is almost always "target their stamina bar". Yeah, this is PROOF that having an "unused" stamina bar isn't godmode, as people claim to be. Yes, there is a bit of a stamina pool. But once it's empty, it's gone for good. And we magickas are dead. Dodgeroll nerf hit us harder, as we have less stamina. Blocking? No option! When stamina guys run out of stamina, they can just flee for cover *cough* dark cloak *cough* and come back with half the bar afterwards, ready to do whatever the situation calls for! Casters have to keep a very sharp eye on how many stamina is left, even though they could lay waste to Molag Bal himself with their 40k magicka left. But the best magicka pool is useless when you get cc'ed.
And a last thing, your magicka is not wasted if you're a stamina char. Dark Cloak is the best example, but also Fossilize and Mass Hysteria and Purge and whatever are skills that do not require spellpower. See, the roles are equal, just reversed. Magicka users may break free with their "reserve" stamina bar, but stamina users cc people with their "reserve" magicka bar.


So, let me ask the question again:
What is your strongest argument that justifies Vigor taking away the one little weakness stamina builds had and not downscaling the strengths for recompensation?

great post

Thank you!
(^_^)

OdinForge

bardx86 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

What exactly is the big counterargument the "pro Vigor faction" has?


I remember moaning about 1.6 and how stamina hits so much harder and in BURSTS than Magicka. Has to do with champion points and stealth modifier and passives like med armor and Flawless Dawnbreaker. Back in those days, I've been told stamina is supposed to hit harder since it's lacking the healing of magicka. People babbled about "risk vs reward" and stuff like that.
Now, with Vigor giving stamina AT LEAST as much healing as magicka users, where is that justification now? Stamina still hits way harder and multiplies with sneak.

People now defend stamina with class abilities. Hey, that was a 1.0 problem! ZOS have acknowledged and given stamina morphs to many skills. There even is a "Stamina Sorc" now in this game, which sounds ABSURD to me, but let's not get too deep into that.
Anyway, some of those stamina morphs are even BETTER than their magicka counterpart. Gladly would I take a magicka version of Unstable Flames on my DK for more damage, as healing is cut. How often do you die in Cyrodiil to Lotus Fan spam? As for me, I always only see Ambush!
And above all, magicka users get a sh*tty destruction staff skill line which many casters abandon for increased DW spellpower. Abandoning light weaving, something staminas can do without drawbacks. Doesn't this already show magicka doesn't have a monopoly any more? No? Okay, what about our healing staff line? Unlike Vigor, we have to SLOT a frikkin' healing staff to get our heals! And staffs are weak! What do stamina users get? A near-completely useful 2H skill line and a high-damage DW skill line with the best AoE in the game. And a bow. Give me a magicka morph of Wrecking Blow and Steel Tornado, and then we can talk about equality!

Finally, after going through all instances, stamina users are grasping for straws and claiming having to pay everything with their main resource. Um, hello? Have I hit my head to hard or what? Isn't that an ADVANTAGE???
Look, magicka DK vampire here. 1200 magicka regen, ~600 stamina. My magicka recharges TWICE as fast as my stamina. I would happily break free or sprint with my magicka, as I simply have much more of that!
Further, when you ask people how to beat a Sorcerer without Shield Breaker, the answer is almost always "target their stamina bar". Yeah, this is PROOF that having an "unused" stamina bar isn't godmode, as people claim to be. Yes, there is a bit of a stamina pool. But once it's empty, it's gone for good. And we magickas are dead. Dodgeroll nerf hit us harder, as we have less stamina. Blocking? No option! When stamina guys run out of stamina, they can just flee for cover *cough* dark cloak *cough* and come back with half the bar afterwards, ready to do whatever the situation calls for! Casters have to keep a very sharp eye on how many stamina is left, even though they could lay waste to Molag Bal himself with their 40k magicka left. But the best magicka pool is useless when you get cc'ed.
And a last thing, your magicka is not wasted if you're a stamina char. Dark Cloak is the best example, but also Fossilize and Mass Hysteria and Purge and whatever are skills that do not require spellpower. See, the roles are equal, just reversed. Magicka users may break free with their "reserve" stamina bar, but stamina users cc people with their "reserve" magicka bar.


So, let me ask the question again:
What is your strongest argument that justifies Vigor taking away the one little weakness stamina builds had and not downscaling the strengths for recompensation?

great post

This thread.