Help Countering Stealth Spamming magicka NB's

usmcjdking

I don't find Magicka NBs that problematic because I ignore their existance.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Inappropriate Content and Language]

Omgwtfbbq321

For example: hardened ward lasts 20. Unless it receives enough damage to remove it, it only needs to be activated once per 20 sec.

Cloak Lasts 2.9 seconds. That's it. If the defense of cloak is needed, it must be cast every 2.9 seconds. That's the way it was designed. Yet it's considered "spamming." [/quote]

Bad example. Hardened ward doesn't prevent taking damage. Rather, it takes it for you. (no resistance from armor either) I would be doing well if my hardened ward lasted 2.9 seconds in a fight. Most attacks will knock it down instantly, forcing a recast or massive damage. (light armor)

The cloak on the other hand, will just negate most incoming damage. Projectiles seem to be the most effected. Hell, I cant even streak out the way of a comet.

****Not stating that cloak is OP or needs to be changed in anyway, just pointing out that hardened ward isnt 20 seconds of freedom****

Hexys

Go to the support skill line, the 4th ability revealing flare, morph it into Scorching Flare and check the tooltip damage. Also keep in mind that alot of nightblades are vampires and receive extra flame damage!

CP5

Hexys wrote: »

Go to the support skill line, the 4th ability revealing flare, morph it into Scorching Flare and check the tooltip damage. Also keep in mind that alot of nightblades are vampires and receive extra flame damage!

And Dark Cloak still purges that dot, correct?

Cathexis

KundaliniHero wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Hey I'm also a stam sorc and I have problems with magicka nightblades as well. Anyone who tells you they are easy kills is full of [SNIP]/just generating nb propaganda.

Most counters are worthless. Certainly anyone who suggests magelight is just trolling you.

...and? Lets see how much cp do you have? Are you actually able to counter on your stam sorc or are you just speaking from a general perspective across your chars? For someone who takes my point very seriously you are very vague about your own experience. Its easy to say nightblades are easy if you are walking around with 600cp. You are taking a casual statement and blowing it way, way out of proportion.

Furthermore most people will tell you magelight is a poor counter, and I am allowed to express my feelings about most counters being worthless. Most counters ARE worthless, either because they are two low DPS and/or they are too easily evaded and/or they are extremely resource heavy and/or they cost gold and time to produce.

Cathexis

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

It makes me sad that this thread was hijacked by the subject of whether or not NB stealth is "OP." Seriously, don't you guys already have enough other threads that are meant to talk about that?

It's because of the title. "Stealth spamming" sounds derogatory.


For example: hardened ward lasts 20. Unless it receives enough damage to remove it, it only needs to be activated once per 20 sec.

Cloak Lasts 2.9 seconds. That's it. If the defense of cloak is needed, it must be cast every 2.9 seconds. That's the way it was designed. Yet it's considered "spamming."

Hardened ward also doesn't make you immune to damage, give you an instant crit, allow you to control the pace and positioning in a battle.

DannyLV702

KundaliniHero wrote: »

The best way to counter a magicka cloaking night blade in my experience:

Step 1:
Go to the forums and create a thread titled "cloak needs a nerf, a pack of wild cloaking nightblades are destroying my legacy"

Step 2:
Pontificate profusely about how eso, like life, should be fair and that you deserve to be entertained with immortal victories rather than developing any humility, sense of humor or skill.

Step 3:
Wait patiently for 1 year while Zenimax's top minds debate the best method of eating flaming hot cheetos:
directly from the bag vs grazing them off a make shift trough on their shirt.

Step 4:
At the 13th month mark after Zenimax finally caves in to your whim, take a small break to say hi to your parents who had reported you missing 12 months ago and had no idea you were living in their basement then proceed back into the game in search of something else to complain about. Repeat Steps 1 through 4.

works everytime.

He's asking for legit help, not complaining, and this is the *** you pull?

PrinceRyzen

Omgwtfbbq321 wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

For example: hardened ward lasts 20. Unless it receives enough damage to remove it, it only needs to be activated once per 20 sec.

Cloak Lasts 2.9 seconds. That's it. If the defense of cloak is needed, it must be cast every 2.9 seconds. That's the way it was designed. Yet it's considered "spamming."

Bad example. Hardened ward doesn't prevent taking damage. Rather, it takes it for you. (no resistance from armor either) I would be doing well if my hardened ward lasted 2.9 seconds in a fight. Most attacks will knock it down instantly, forcing a recast or massive damage. (light armor)

The cloak on the other hand, will just negate most incoming damage. Projectiles seem to be the most effected. Hell, I cant even streak out the way of a comet.

****Not stating that cloak is OP or needs to be changed in anyway, just pointing out that hardened ward isnt 20 seconds of freedom****

Uhh.. I gave an example of two damage mitigating abilities. One lasting 2.9 seconds and the other 20.


The point is that if the defense of either is to be maintained, one must be cast every 20 seconds and the other every 2.9 seconds. Same concept yet only the later is considered spamming.


I never made any claims of "20 seconds of freedom" nor any mention of prevented damage. <not sure how that creates a bad example. Never mentioned either.

Cathexis wrote: »

Hardened ward also doesn't make you immune to damage, give you an instant crit, allow you to control the pace and positioning in a battle.

That's because hardened ward has its own benefits. Like not being negated by a potion or mitigating AOE.

If you think I'm comparing which is better you're missing the point.



The guy questioned why the thread got hijacked by cloak discussion.


I simply pointed out that it was perhaps because the title referred to users of cloak as spammers.

Any defensive ability you need that only lasts 2.9 seconds is naturally going to be used more frequently. Hardened ward was used as an example because it lasts longer and doesn't need to be recast every 3 seconds.

That was all.

Domander

Cathexis wrote: »

Hey I'm also a stam sorc and I have problems with magicka nightblades as well. Anyone who tells you they are easy kills is full of [SNIP]/just generating nb propaganda.

Most counters are worthless. Certainly anyone who suggests magelight is just trolling you.

In groups caltrops, boundless storm, steel tornado, and either morph of batswarm will massacre nbs, especially of you stack them all.

Unless you have really good head and 300+cp it will be hard to be competitive. Staying on the offensive and using stealth is important.

Daedric Minefield and Immovable are a great combo to deter being bum rushed as well.

Potions work really well but I keep them for when you get them on the run because you really only get one shot with them per fight.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Between lightning form and steel tornado, I dont have issues with cloak on my stam sorc.

KundaliniHero

@Cathexis

I have about 224 CP. Between boundless storm, steel tornado, restraining prison and a well placed streak here and there I dont seem to have a problem (I have around 4500 weapon damage). Now I admit there is the occasional instance where the *** will get away but if he is running then I've done my job. I mostly pvp with my stam sorc (its my fav) but once in awhile i'll jump to my NB or Magika Sorc just to do something different.

I dont use magelight so I cant comment on its direct effectiveness, but I have gotten killed by sorcs using it with my nightblade. I can also attest to the fact that caltrops is really effective but the only reason I dont use it with my stam sorc is because of the stamina cost, especially when I have other tools that are just as effective.

Im not saying your opinion is wrong, everyones experience in a game is going to be different, I am just saying that I personally havent struggled against nightblades. This isnt to say I havent gotten ganked, it has happened occasionally by NB's while farming in IC. Its especially frustrating to be fighting mobs only to have some jack ass drop clouding swarm on you before you know whats going on and then spam one move on you until your dead. But hey its made me a better player and I would say I just got caught slipping. However when I am out there looking for a fight I dont have some of the problems you have outlined in your posts. Namely the one where you and 4 other "very skilled" players were throwing the kitchen sink at a "god of a nightblade" and were unable to kill him. I have never seen or even heard of anything like that except for Sypher. Generally, even in group PVP once a few people get on said nightblade and crowd him there's no flipping way he's getting away unless he gets really lucky. Who knows that nightblade could have been running around with 600cp's or it could have even been Sypher lol but then thats a problem with the CP system and not the class as a whole. Just my experience.

PS I have seen Sypher kill rooms of people even before IC so maybe it was him.

Cathexis

@KundaliniHero I would agree with you that that situation could easily be attributed to flaws in the cp system just as it could be attributed to cloak. I may not have been clear before but to reiterate - the god of a nightblade scenario is not the norm. My stance on cloak has always been that cloak spam itself is not always op, but rather that some players have learned how to use cloak in such a way that they can completely avoid both all of the supposed hard counters and damage indefinitely. It wasnt Sypher, but every instance was a name nightblade. Anyway, the community pushed for that capacity to be taken away from sorcs, it only follows that the same the should be true of nightblades as well. Yes, irrespective of counters - I never had problems with teleporting sorcs , there were lots of counters. Maybe not a potion, but it certainly was never difficult to drop a 30k snipe at 45 meters.

I also used magelight extensively (pre-IC it was a staple on bar). Ultimately I found that magelight was better as a 20% damage proc than as a deterrent to getting jumped or a way to hunt nightblades. Nightblades in a straight up head to head are not impossible, even the being jumped scenario is resistable. Perhaps to reiterate my own position, that is probably the most challenging standard situation that I face against nightblades.

JDar

Cathexis wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

It makes me sad that this thread was hijacked by the subject of whether or not NB stealth is "OP." Seriously, don't you guys already have enough other threads that are meant to talk about that?

It's because of the title. "Stealth spamming" sounds derogatory.


For example: hardened ward lasts 20. Unless it receives enough damage to remove it, it only needs to be activated once per 20 sec.

Cloak Lasts 2.9 seconds. That's it. If the defense of cloak is needed, it must be cast every 2.9 seconds. That's the way it was designed. Yet it's considered "spamming."

Hardened ward also doesn't make you immune to damage, give you an instant crit, allow you to control the pace and positioning in a battle.

1) Cloak doesn't make you immune to damage. That's an incorrect assertion.

2) A point of information. I should point out that only the highly unpopular Shadowy Disguise morph gives a guaranteed crit. There is an Assassination perk that gives increased Spell and Weapon damage when attacking from cloak, but this is only 10% with two out of two skill points into it.

3) I am not disagreeing with you that cloak allows you to control the pace and positioning of a battle, because that's what i do all the time. But any player of any class can do that. That's not just a nightblade thing. Only facerollers can't control the pace of a battle. You're probably doing it without even realizing.

edit: slight changes in word choice

JDar

Cathexis wrote: »

...but rather that some players have learned how to use cloak in such a way that they can completely avoid both all of the supposed hard counters and damage indefinitely...

If your problem is with only with the top tier of magicka nightblades then I'm with you. I think all the top players in the game should be nerfed down to my level too. But nerfing cloak isn't going to do that. If you get pwned by a magicka nightblade, that player has probably spent months learning how to play what we all agree is a very difficult class. So difficult that there are almost no middle-class magicka nightblades -- you either get past the learning curve or you go stamina. (I'm an exception, I remain mediocre after all these months).

It's not a stand and fight class at all. Your timing and combos have to be perfect, and so does your judgement and target selection. You should know -- you've killed me a ton when I haven't gotten it right.

Knootewoot

Funny about this post is

1. There are people complain nightblade are OP ( due to cloak )

2. Then there are people saying NB's (escpecially magicka) are weak and oppose no thread and they kill them easily

3. Then there are NB's who cry cloak is the only protection they have (which is true since magicka blades also do little damage compared to their counterparts the stamblades)

4. And there are NB's who also claim cloak is OP which are probably stamblades who encountered a magblade and got owned.


1 and 2 nullify eachother and so do 3 and 4

So basically... there is no problem


#BuffMagbladeDPS