Help Countering Stealth Spamming magicka NB's

Cathexis

Hey I'm also a stam sorc and I have problems with magicka nightblades as well. Anyone who tells you they are easy kills is full of [SNIP]/just generating nb propaganda.

Most counters are worthless. Certainly anyone who suggests magelight is just trolling you.

In groups caltrops, boundless storm, steel tornado, and either morph of batswarm will massacre nbs, especially of you stack them all.

Unless you have really good head and 300+cp it will be hard to be competitive. Staying on the offensive and using stealth is important.

Daedric Minefield and Immovable are a great combo to deter being bum rushed as well.

Potions work really well but I keep them for when you get them on the run because you really only get one shot with them per fight.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

KundaliniHero

Cathexis wrote: »

Hey I'm also a stam sorc and I have problems with magicka nightblades as well. Anyone who tells you they are easy kills is full of [SNIP]/just generating nb propaganda.

Most counters are worthless. Certainly anyone who suggests magelight is just trolling you.

In groups caltrops, boundless storm, steel tornado, and either morph of batswarm will massacre nbs, especially of you stack them all.

Unless you have really good head and 300+cp it will be hard to be competitive. Staying on the offensive and using stealth is important.

Daedric Minefield and Immovable are a great combo to deter being bum rushed as well.

Potions work really well but I keep them for when you get them on the run because you really only get one shot with them per fight.

Is this with your killer argonian stam sorc build that is so amazing its deemed too secret to share with the general public?

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/220062/high-elf-sorcerer-magicka-build-will-it-also-work-if-you-switch-to-stamina-build#latest

I have both a stam and magika sorc, a nightblade and a dragon knight and I have no problems killing them 1v1 and I am not even that good. As a matter of fact most of the time they run away: they have no sustain, no burst. The majority of magika NB's are comparable to flies, they are more annoying than lethal. This is how a fight usually goes: Lotus Fan, Fear, Concealed Weapon, Lotus Fan, Lotus Fan, Lotus Fan, Lotus Fan, Lotus Fan, Dark Cloak, Dark Cloak, Dark Cloak, Dead. If their a vampire, which the majority are, than you can expect an ultimate sprinkled in there. Once in awhile you get a really good player and that's always a welcome and rewarding challenge rather than a jump on the forums and whine scenario.

The counters work fine. I think the majority of complainers on here are just looking for easy kills instead of adapting to a sound strategy of play. You dont see any of the top tier PVP players on here complaining about cloak. But just because YOU might struggle with a specific class doesn't make everyone else full of [SNIP].

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Yonkit

My counter is to mainly just ignore them. Most have pathetically low dmg output and are just cloak spamming because well... what else are you gonna do? If they try to attack me I just self heal with vigor and go about my life. If they for one second decide that they're actually going to attack me for real I ambush and kill them.

Magicka NB's are only a problem if you treat them as such...

PainfulFAFA

Yonkit wrote: »

My counter is to mainly just ignore them. Most have pathetically low dmg output and are just cloak spamming because well... what else are you gonna do? If they try to attack me I just self heal with vigor and go about my life. If they for one second decide that they're actually going to attack me for real I ambush and kill them.

Magicka NB's are only a problem if you treat them as such...

This anzu guy fits this discription lol
Crit rush>wrecking blow cheese>dodge roll back>cloak.

Over and over again to the point i just stood there taking his initial DPS and roll dodged out of his WB..
It was cute watching his rotation be so ineffective I assume all NBs do this except the good ones who sacrifice sustain for an insane DPS burst meant to take you down as when they engage you. They'll use cloak to buy time to repeat this burst.

NB who sustain but lack DPS will be using Aspect of terror to drain your stamina so that when they fear you again, and you have no way to break free, they just kill you even with low dps.


Survive their initial burst and then go for the kill. If you can take their DPS and stay healed up it should not be a problem to out sustain him.
If aoes, cc's, and detect pots arent working for you idk what else tell ya other than l2p.

kadar

Yonkit wrote: »

My counter is to mainly just ignore them. Most have pathetically low dmg output and are just cloak spamming because well... what else are you gonna do? If they try to attack me I just self heal with vigor and go about my life. If they for one second decide that they're actually going to attack me for real I ambush and kill them.

Magicka NB's are only a problem if you treat them as such...

Couldn't have said it better.

And the comment above has a couple good ideas for killing both MNBs and SNBs without using any counters (of the plethora that exist) at all. Throw a detect pot on top of that and welcome to never-die-to-magicka-nbs-unless-you-get-outplayed-land.

Omgwtfbbq321

I am a V16 100% magika sorc and at the moment I run:

• daedric mines <-- Can help keep some distance between you and them.
• boundless storm <-- If they are within basically touching range, it will bring them out of stealth.
• defensive rune <-- if they attack you first, they will get put to the knees (99% Of the time, useless as they break instantly and become immune to cc for i think its 8 seconds?)

I am not high enough alliance war level to use flare (After reading some posts on here I am not even sure it works on cloak) and caltrops is a death sentence if you have very little stamina. (if they fear or knock you down, you are dead before getting back up.)

The biggest issue is ranged MNBs as they will just hang back shooting at you and cloaking after every shot. Its much worse if you are a sorc and they run shield breaker. I have yet to find a counter that works well against them ("gut mor heath" is not a counter).

If you are alone and can get away, I would recommend running. NBs have the (annoying) advantage of being able to pull the mobs onto you and then cloak a few times to leave you with the agro. Then, they wait till you are hurt or low on resources and cheap shot you from a distance.

SleepyTroll

Does anyone have video proof that NB cloak is out of hand? There is usually always proof when something is "OP". I mean I play a lot and I only ever run into NB's who use cloak to run away and get rid of DOT's. Then again I see a NB attacking and I ensure to lock down their cloak first and foremost. So please someone make a video of you wrecking face while spamming cloak or getting wrecked by a cloak spammer. Double points if the NB is not Sypher, or idk, who ever else is good at NB.

Omgwtfbbq321

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Does anyone have video proof that NB cloak is out of hand? There is usually always proof when something is "OP". I mean I play a lot and I only ever run into NB's who use cloak to run away and get rid of DOT's. Then again I see a NB attacking and I ensure to lock down their cloak first and foremost. So please someone make a video of you wrecking face while spamming cloak or getting wrecked by a cloak spammer. Double points if the NB is not Sypher, or idk, who ever else is good at NB.

Double points if you read the post before replying, I don't see a single thing in your reply that helps OP.

SleepyTroll

Omgwtfbbq321 wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Does anyone have video proof that NB cloak is out of hand? There is usually always proof when something is "OP". I mean I play a lot and I only ever run into NB's who use cloak to run away and get rid of DOT's. Then again I see a NB attacking and I ensure to lock down their cloak first and foremost. So please someone make a video of you wrecking face while spamming cloak or getting wrecked by a cloak spammer. Double points if the NB is not Sypher, or idk, who ever else is good at NB.

Double points if you read the post before replying, I don't see a single thing in your reply that helps OP.

Was mostly replying to all the other posts:)

Omgwtfbbq321

Yeah, fair call I guess. I personally only have a problem with night blades in IC and only because of their ability to ignore mobs or agro and run. Night blades in Cyrodill are fine, even shield breaker I can deal with.

xaraan

Make sure you keep lightning form up, it will break them out of stealth if they try and get close for a melee attack usually. (Plus gives you a bit of extra protection) Caltrops as well when you open it.

If you have trouble for a specific instance, I'd also slot Radiant Magelight. Though I don't run it on my stam sorc normally, it's a great skill when used in the right situations and keeps them from being able to stun from stealth, lowers their damage from stealth attacks and lets you see them (if you are right on top of them at least). So it can be good to use when you are having issues with NBs during a particular battle or run. Even better can be the flare when you open it up, if you know where the enemy was or think they will keep fighting, you can just hit your personal space with it, if it hits them it will put a dot on them and bring them out of stealth and keep them from going back in. Caltrops is what does wonders though, once you get that open, you'll see a big difference I think.

And if you need to change up your build for a specific fight, using some magicka abilities like curse or others than CC can sometimes give you a moment to gather yourself or get buffs up and make them waste a little stam breaking out.

Sounds like you are doing most of that stuff though, it could just be a tricky player. Wrecking blow is OP and until they bring it in line with other powers, it's hard to deal with one v one unless you just out WB them, combine with cloak and it's an even bigger pain.

JDar

Yonkit wrote: »

My counter is to mainly just ignore them. Most have pathetically low dmg output and are just cloak spamming because well... what else are you gonna do? If they try to attack me I just self heal with vigor and go about my life. If they for one second decide that they're actually going to attack me for real I ambush and kill them.

Magicka NB's are only a problem if you treat them as such...

Sigh...yup. Tried to kill you the other day...that's pretty much what happened exactly.

rordogg

I've heard the best way to do it in the Imperial city it to use aoe to pop them out. Which will happen to pull every mob around you or that was chasing the NB onto you, and then to fight all of the mobs and the NB till one or the other kills you. Or to equip a skill like flare that really has no use other than specifically fighting a stealth spamming NB. Now NBs say this skill is useful for fighting any other class though. Cause all the classes can run when they're about to die into stealth. But I'm not for sure, this is just what all the NBs tell me.

Yonkit

JDar wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

My counter is to mainly just ignore them. Most have pathetically low dmg output and are just cloak spamming because well... what else are you gonna do? If they try to attack me I just self heal with vigor and go about my life. If they for one second decide that they're actually going to attack me for real I ambush and kill them.

Magicka NB's are only a problem if you treat them as such...

Sigh...yup. Tried to kill you the other day...that's pretty much what happened exactly.

I really liked my magicka NB back in 1.5, but 1.6 really hurt that side of things and made it so ineffective in pvp compared to stamblades imo. Someday I hope to go back to it on my non-cat toon.

Ara_Valleria

Caltrops, radiant magelight, revealing flare, detect pots, piercing mark and any aoe.

Use lightning form and stay on the nb. There is absolutely no way he can cloak if you are on him with lightning form at all times.
Also use detect pots. Its your best friend against Cloak.

newtinmpls

Hydrocodone wrote: »

LOL come back and tell us how you do against a v16 NB. I can 1 shot a v5.

Could you be a teeny bit calmer?

Speaking as a casual who is new to MMORPGs and computer games - not dying against a skilled v5 after stating this was a challenge is a good improvement.

twistedmonk

Hydrocodone wrote: »

LOL come back and tell us how you do against a v16 NB. I can 1 shot a v5.

hmm...a V5 is battle leveled to have at least 30k hps.

so you are telling us you are doing 30k dmg with one attack???

mhmmmok

xylena

i leveled a magicka nb to v16 this month, nowhere near the dmg capability of my WB-spamming stam dk... opposing magicka NBs are very easy to stun/root a few times and they can't roll out of aoe range to cloak without blowing all their stamina and getting perma-cc'd

all the NBs ppl are QQing about are more likely stamblades that roll roll cloak heal, ambush SA SA SA SA SA SA, roll roll cloak heal, ad nauseum... since they only need magicka for 1 ability (cloak) they never run out, they almost all wear medium (shield breaker) and can roll 5-6 times in a row before running low, rally+vigor brings them to full health within 1-2 cloaks, and they only need to spam 1 ability to do massive dmg because of the bizarre imbalance between magicka defense and stamina defense available in the champ system and gear sets

OdinForge

xylena wrote: »

i leveled a magicka nb to v16 this month, nowhere near the dmg capability of my WB-spamming stam dk... opposing magicka NBs are very easy to stun/root a few times and they can't roll out of aoe range to cloak without blowing all their stamina and getting perma-cc'd

all the NBs ppl are QQing about are more likely stamblades that roll roll cloak heal, ambush SA SA SA SA SA SA, roll roll cloak heal, ad nauseum... since they only need magicka for 1 ability (cloak) they never run out, they almost all wear medium (shield breaker) and can roll 5-6 times in a row before running low, rally+vigor brings them to full health within 1-2 cloaks, and they only need to spam 1 ability to do massive dmg because of the bizarre imbalance between magicka defense and stamina defense available in the champ system and gear sets

Pretty much this, magblade is pretty gimped.

Success is possible, but counters hurt magblade way worse than stamblade.

Ara_Valleria

xylena wrote: »

i leveled a magicka nb to v16 this month, nowhere near the dmg capability of my WB-spamming stam dk... opposing magicka NBs are very easy to stun/root a few times and they can't roll out of aoe range to cloak without blowing all their stamina and getting perma-cc'd

all the NBs ppl are QQing about are more likely stamblades that roll roll cloak heal, ambush SA SA SA SA SA SA, roll roll cloak heal, ad nauseum... since they only need magicka for 1 ability (cloak) they never run out, they almost all wear medium (shield breaker) and can roll 5-6 times in a row before running low, rally+vigor brings them to full health within 1-2 cloaks, and they only need to spam 1 ability to do massive dmg because of the bizarre imbalance between magicka defense and stamina defense available in the champ system and gear sets

THIS.

Saltypretzels

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

I don't know how so many people are misunderstanding my question as complaining. I asked how I can improve my gameplay to better counter NB that use stealth a lot. I never once said anything about any ability needing nerfed, I even asked what I am doing wrong. Me, not other people, me. MY gameplay needs improving, not the mechanics of the game.

Other people are generally stupid.

You are right, there was no complaining here, just asking for advice.

Cathexis

KundaliniHero wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Hey I'm also a stam sorc and I have problems with magicka nightblades as well. Anyone who tells you they are easy kills is full of shjt/just generating nb propaganda.

Most counters are worthless. Certainly anyone who suggests magelight is just trolling you.

In groups caltrops, boundless storm, steel tornado, and either morph of batswarm will massacre nbs, especially of you stack them all.

Unless you have really good head and 300+cp it will be hard to be competitive. Staying on the offensive and using stealth is important.

Daedric Minefield and Immovable are a great combo to deter being bum rushed as well.

Potions work really well but I keep them for when you get them on the run because you really only get one shot with them per fight.

Is this with your killer argonian stam sorc build that is so amazing its deemed too secret to share with the general public?

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/220062/high-elf-sorcerer-magicka-build-will-it-also-work-if-you-switch-to-stamina-build#latest

I have both a stam and magika sorc, a nightblade and a dragon knight and I have no problems killing them 1v1 and I am not even that good. As a matter of fact most of the time they run away: they have no sustain, no burst. The majority of magika NB's are comparable to flies, they are more annoying than lethal. This is how a fight usually goes: Lotus Fan, Fear, Concealed Weapon, Lotus Fan, Lotus Fan, Lotus Fan, Lotus Fan, Lotus Fan, Dark Cloak, Dark Cloak, Dark Cloak, Dead. If their a vampire, which the majority are, than you can expect an ultimate sprinkled in there. Once in awhile you get a really good player and that's always a welcome and rewarding challenge rather than a jump on the forums and whine scenario.

The counters work fine. I think the majority of complainers on here are just looking for easy kills instead of adapting to a sound strategy of play. You dont see any of the top tier PVP players on here complaining about cloak. But just because YOU might struggle with a specific class doesn't make everyone else full of [SNIP].

@KundaliniHero referencing top tier players as people who don't have issues with cloak is a silly because they are a small sample of players that do not represent the average. Also your full of [SNIP]because I made top 1% on Wabbajack and last 3 seasons I have been in the top 100 DC, and last campaign on Azura I was in the top 2% DC and top 2% Sorcerers overall, so I am a top tier player. I'm also not an ArgonIan, I'm an Orc (we make boots out of argonians).

The reason it needs to be fixed is not because the average nightblade is op, it is because a practiced nightblade can completely avoid damage indefinitely, regardless of an entire group spamming counters (I know this because at least a dozen times now I've been in 5v1situations or higher where nightblades have effectively avoided all damage irrespective of the many counters we spammed). If that isn't acceptable for sorcerers spamming bolt escape, it isn't acceptable for nightblades spamming cloak. It's that simple. It has nothing to do with whether or not I find them challenging. As a side note, if you read my post, I explicitly outlined the counters that one might use. The AOE build I suggested is not my "secret build" it is pretty much a common knowledge variant of deltias aoe build using bats instead of negate.

So anyway if you take one thing away from this it should be that maybe you shouldn't talk smack before you know who you are talking smack to.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

rfennell_ESO

A whole lot of "how to use broken logic" in this thread.

The fact that the magicka nightblade lobby has appealed to things from a perspective that omits the fact that they will just cc you and then dark cloak away or reset on you might be something to think about. Lotus fan and run eliminates nearly all the "just ae them" logic. It's like lol, really? you think players can't figure out to lotus fan the furthest target, then dodge roll and then dark cloak and get away from everything?

Add that little gem to discussion and there is no way to really stop them from cloaking. The only true measure of control over their spam of one ability is piercing mark. Which as a magicka user they will just purge. Stamblade's can't purge due to magicka cost, so the only true spamming the cloak playstyle is magicka nightblades.

I like the argument of "they can't kill anyone so it's fine". Oddly I guess every magicka nightblade on the leaderboards is being carried? Laughable argument, I think some of you are jockeying for Josh Earnest's position as biggest liar in (North)America. I recall a certain nightblade who is a magblade being emporer recently and he's always solo. Fearlord was his name and darkcloak with shadow image was his game, and I never ever saw that guy running in a group. (this isn't naming and shaming, it's just naming a magblade that was doing quite well and obviously skilled and obviously was pretty good at killing people).

Gina's mentioning of locking magicka regen while cloaked seems to be the only solution. It's a solution, which is more than the "these aren't the droids you are looking for" hand waves I've seen in response. It will suck for stamblades though, but perfect solutions are pipe dreams.

KundaliniHero

@Cathexsis Never heard of ya. Regardless of your eso accomplishments my post was more about making blanket assumptions of everyone in the gaming community, theres a word for that...oh yeah arrogance. You may in your own words be gods gift to eso but I'll say it again: just because you struggle with killing nightblades doesnt mean everyone else is full of poo utilizing the many methods available to them.

Gern_Verkheart

It makes me sad that this thread was hijacked by the subject of whether or not NB stealth is "OP." Seriously, don't you guys already have enough other threads that are meant to talk about that?

Cathexis

KundaliniHero wrote: »

@Cathexsis Never heard of ya. Regardless of your eso accomplishments my post was more about making blanket assumptions of everyone in the gaming community, theres a word for that...oh yeah arrogance. You may in your own words be gods gift to eso but I'll say it again: just because you struggle with killing nightblades doesnt mean everyone else is full of poo utilizing the many methods available to them.

@KindaliniHero did you even read my post?? I wasn't making any assumptions about other players in the gaming community. I clearly explained my rational as to why cloak is a problem using examples that had nothing to do with my capacity as a player. Furthermore, the rational underlying the need to fix cloak also stems, as I have stated in many other posts, from the fact that when bolt escape was nerfed, the premise was that it allowed the player to dictate the terms of a fight; both when it starts and when it ends, at any time and that regardless of counters that capacity was deemed by popular opinion to be imbalanced. The same philosophical problem exists with cloak.

Also I dont care if you have heard of me, I don't play this game to be famous. You clearly missed my point which is that you are grandstanding for the voice of top tier players claiming to represent their values which is clearly false because, as a top tier player myself, you do not represent my opinions about cloak at all. You are a hypocrite to talk about me being arrogant and making blanket assumptions (which I didn't , and which you did). What I did do, however, was express my opinion to the op that people who claim to be nightblade killing super monsters are probably biased in some capacity. Which I still firmly believe.

If anything, you are making assumptions about my playing capacity. Just because they are challenging doesn't mean I can't beat them. I came here to offer the op information on how to counter cloakspam. You came in here and twisted my posted into some argument about whether or not cloak spam is op and @Gern_Verkheart I completely agree with you that this has turned into a hijacked conversation about cloak being op or not. I can't apologize for kindalini but I can certainly speak for myself to the op when I say I'm sorry for the shallow pissing contest kundalini has turned this into.

KundaliniHero

Cathexis wrote: »

Hey I'm also a stam sorc and I have problems with magicka nightblades as well. Anyone who tells you they are easy kills is full of [SNIP]/just generating nb propaganda.

Most counters are worthless. Certainly anyone who suggests magelight is just trolling you.

CP5

Ara_Valleria wrote: »

Caltrops, radiant magelight, revealing flare, detect pots, piercing mark and any aoe.

Use lightning form and stay on the nb. There is absolutely no way he can cloak if you are on him with lightning form at all times.
Also use detect pots. Its your best friend against Cloak.

My stamina sorc keeps boundless storm up whenever fighting a nb (which is to say, a majority of my fights) and there is one odd quirk about the skill i've noticed. It only hits once a second, you can tell by the audio and the bolt of lightning going from the sorc to targets. If a nb cloaks right when they take damage they have 1s to move out of arm's reach to avoid the next hit, and if you are both moving in the same direction they don't even have to move, just let you run ahead.

I also feel radiant magelight has the same delay as I have had nb's cloak within my range and remain invisible for about a same delay.

PrinceRyzen

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

It makes me sad that this thread was hijacked by the subject of whether or not NB stealth is "OP." Seriously, don't you guys already have enough other threads that are meant to talk about that?

It's because of the title. "Stealth spamming" sounds derogatory.


For example: hardened ward lasts 20. Unless it receives enough damage to remove it, it only needs to be activated once per 20 sec.

Cloak Lasts 2.9 seconds. That's it. If the defense of cloak is needed, it must be cast every 2.9 seconds. That's the way it was designed. Yet it's considered "spamming."

Alucardo

twistedmonk wrote: »

hmm...a V5 is battle leveled to have at least 30k hps.

so you are telling us you are doing 30k dmg with one attack???

mhmmmok

Using the ayleid wells and tri stat food I have just over 41k health