Crown Glass Mofits? Slap in the Face to the Dedicated Crafters Who Actually Earned Them

Haxnschwammer

The motifs are in store for a reason.
Many crafters are dedicated, they want to be able to create every item, every style. That's why so many spend so much time in research. And money on nirncrux. People want to be master crafters. And because they are dedicated ZOS stretched the motif pages and fragments and put them behind the grind wall. You can get them in some months, or when you spend millions for them.

But those who can't or don't want to spend that much have only one choice: buy it for real money. [snip]

Oh, and if you grind for 2 months and have half the pages, will you grind more to get the rest or buy the full motif? Another reason why they put it already in the shop.

[edited for bashing]

lathbury

Haxnschwammer wrote: »

The motifs are in store for a reason.
Many crafters are dedicated, they want to be able to create every item, every style. That's why so many spend so much time in research. And money on nirncrux. People want to be master crafters. And because they are dedicated ZOS stretched the motif pages and fragments and put them behind the grind wall. You can get them in some months, or when you spend millions for them.

But those who can't or don't want to spend that much have only one choice: buy it for real money. [snip]

Oh, and if you grind for 2 months and have half the pages, will you grind more to get the rest or buy the full motif? Another reason why they put it already in the shop.

I would add that the people buying this are encouraging more of the same and will regret it when crafters buy there molag kena gear divines or infused in the [snip] store.

[edited for bashing & to remove quote]

Prof_Bawbag

Harasdar wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Something I learned pretty quickly around here is most of those people you've just responded to aren't worth the time nor effort such is their desire to lynch anyone and everyone with their "No one is forcing you to buy it" or "you want something for nothing" nonsense. Whether it's a relevant statement or not. That's all they have. They aren't interested in anything in-between. I have no idea why people can't wrap their heads around simple statements and answer them accordingly, without thinking everyone wants something for nothing.

I don't care if somebody is buying or grinding anything. For me it is OK to subscripe, if anybody is playing without it I personally don't care, as it makes no diffenrence for me. I bought some horse from the crowns I got after they switched to B2P. They rest I kept...bought dwemer and some other motifs with ingame gold...as I don't know what to do else with it. But I really dislike if people are bashed just for supporting the game by buying stuff in the crown store.

But Iluvrien said the following

Iluvrien wrote: »

Interesting idea. Alright then, do feel free to tell me how to remain a part of the crafting economy without buying the motif from the crown store or grinding. No, really. I am interesting in how you think this can be done because, you see, it isn't my choice that I have to deal with, it is ZOS's choice...

So if he is not willing to grind or buy... at that point it is really hard not to think:

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

"you want something for nothing"

It's all about the context of the post. Reading his full post he's implying something different. For example, there is a huge difference between the current grind requirements and those pre IC.

newtinmpls

I commented:

I choose a crafting style that does not require grinding. A style that does not require fancy motifs. That is what I offer and suggest.

No, I would not advise you to "circumvent the system", nor would I unrealistically expect you to be able to do the exact same crafting the exact same way in a game that does not stay the same.

I would say consider what IS. Then choose. Then take responsibility for having chosen

lathbury wrote: »

your wrong on your first point if you classify glass,imperial and xyvkin common.

I dont believe you are making any profits regularly selling breton and imperial seducer and night-silence pieces as you claim either. Also the fact that one of the styles is imperial means that it being in the crown store has already affeced the profits you claim to make as if it wasnt you would be part of a limited number of people able to make and trade this style.

To address your points:

I don't classify any style as common or uncommon. I have not addressed that. I do own primal, but not barbaric or ancient elf (would love that one ... maybe eventually I'll find it) or daedric. I have ... maybe 3 pages of dweomer. This is after close to two years of play. Think of it as a consequence of my not choosing to grind.

I also did not discuss profits. The issue was presented as making things for people. Making money - which I do suspect would happen - was not discussed. No, I do not make tons of money. The prices I charge for a bit range from hundreds to a couple thousand for some higher level vet stuff. I sell ... assuming a fully loaded set of guild stores .... probably a couple peices every day or every other day.

I don't do this "for the money" I do it because I enjoy it. And because I'm in some trade guilds that require you to sell something, and I'd rather sell something useful than throwaway junk.

I get that it's frustrating to see something that you worked for be offered "for cash". I kind of freaked when the basic motifs were added. Then I thought 1-I can't change this, and 2-do I still want to play? yes, so 3-if I can't change it, and don't want to go away, then my only option is to let go of my reaction and deal.

Not always easy.

For example I hate the whole "mugged for telvar stones" in IC. One of my ways of letting go of my reaction is to make an effort to not know how many I have till I get to the bank. I have found that I can maneuver the skype icon to block my view of the running total. A very handy tool for me.

So yes, you are right. It sucks. But I choose not to spend my time in "it sucks" because that makes the game less fun for me. That is the advice I offer.

YMMV

OmniDevil

Purchased the motif last night. Made a full set. Didn't lose an ounce of sleep over it.

FireCowCommando

Ill keep it short.

I wanted this before it was in the store, it was a goal i wanted to go for, now that its so readily available that desire to achieve the motif was replaced with a different emotion:

Disappointment.

Now i dont want the style at all.

anitajoneb17_ESO

OmniDevil wrote: »

Purchased the motif last night. Made a full set. Didn't lose an ounce of sleep over it.

And you're right.
I would like to have it too but don't want to spend RL money over it so I will carry on grinding the pages ingame.
I would be quite mad if there was no possibility to get in in the game, but it is not the case.
Sooner or later (though admittedly rather later than sooner) we'll both have it and be happy.
I don't see what problems people have here apart from non relevant "exclusivity" issues.

OmniDevil

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

And you're right.
I would like to have it too but don't want to spend RL money over it so I will carry on grinding the pages ingame.
Sooner or later (though admittedly rather later than sooner) we'll both have it and be happy.
I don't see what problems people have here apart from non relevant "exclusivity" issues.

It's just another misconception of what the word earned means. I can completely understand someone feeling cheated after having doing writs on 5+ toons and still not have the full motif discovered, but having it available for purchase via RL money isn't game breaking nor does it prevent them from continuing to farm for the frags, should they so choose to.

Slurg

Why is everyone stuck on this false binary argument that you either have to grind for months to get this style or pay cash for it in the crown store?

There has always been a third option - to buy fragments and/or full pages off other players for gold. Anyone who had the style before it was in the crown store was not necessarily some hard working saint who grinded out the time to "earn" it.

Pangnirtung

FireCowCommando wrote: »

Ill keep it short.

I wanted this before it was in the store, it was a goal i wanted to go for, now that its so readily available that desire to achieve the motif was replaced with a different emotion:

Disappointment.

Now i dont want the style at all.

This is it for me exactly. It was a goal to earn it.

To buy it makes it much less valuable. I now no longer care about getting glass motifs and related materials.

Another reason that this game is becoming boring and pointless.

Resipsa131

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

OmniDevil wrote: »

"Earned"

I don't think that word means what you think it does.......

Dedicated alot of time doing crafting writs. Also spending alot time doing things like farming nodes and killing for drops so that i could sell them to have have gold to buy more glass frags. Aswell as buying and selling in guild auctions houses to make a profit. This is alot of time spent to be able to make glass mofit gear that i would of much rather spent in AVA in Cyrodiil actually having fun. I think i am allowed to use Earned.

I worked at my job for 2 hours, I earned it too. Just kidding I don't like the set

deadlock007

Technically didn't someone who worked for their money to spend in the crown store "EARN" it too. I think I may buy it now that it is there and sell the one page I did manage to get and any future pages/fragments as well. The extra in game gold will be nice. I think I've earned that

DaveMoeDee

Iluvrien wrote: »

Genomic wrote: »

Like it or not, with the change in payment model ZOS is now in the business of whale hunting. With B2P it's logically the means for them to make a profit.

How about actually producing enticing and enjoyable content instead?

Whale hunting is efficient. Very high margins.

Brrrofski

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

I find it crazy that an armour style if twice the price of DLC...

Can't just be me?

Actually I think it's nice that something useful and needed is less expensive than something that is pretty and useless.

Like a 5000$ room at Hilton is 100x the price of a room at the inn next door. If some have the cash and enjoy Hilton I think it's good that Hilton exist - as long as the 50$ inn still exists for those who need to use the basic feature which is sleeping overnight.

.

That's not the same.

It's like the Hilton suite costing a lot more than next door.

It has nothing in it. Just pretty walls, carpets, curtains and door handles.

Next door has a bed, toilet and shower.

I never got style over substance myself.

DaveMoeDee

andreasv wrote: »

Harasdar wrote: »

andreasv wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Adding the glass motif to the crown store three weeks after the release of the DLC, is garbage ...

I completely share this view. At least let players try to get that stuff in game for a few months before offering it in the crown store. I will carry on playing the actual game before going the credit card route.

Hm...they need to make the money to keep their servers running and allowing us to play...soooo why would it make sense to sell the motif after most people already got it?????

I really don't see the point here if they would shut down the game because they can't maintain it anymore your precios crafted motifs would be worthless too...and that kind of special is what people are buying.

And to be honest ZOS did many things really wrong, but the crown store is really fair. You can't really buy any real advantage. They need to make money and if they can't I (and you all, incl. thread opener) will not able to play the game I like....that's easy math I think it is a little bit like kickstarter and supporters of the game are able to choose between some "gifts" for supporting it. So if they sell constumes, motif, ridinglessons it is OK for me, it would be different if I would have to buy special weapons or other stuff I would need to keep up with other players.

PS: By the way...the pages are not really rare...I get one every 2-3 writs I hand in. And that I would call a fair chance.

Do you seriously believe that the additional crafting motif will rescue the game from shutting down the servers. If so I agree with @lathbury.
I stand to my view that having a crafting motif to be something to be acquired by playing only for an extended period before offering it in the cash shop.

I do get your point of the company making money; I am a subscriber on PC and bought copies for XBox One and PS4 after all. I also buy mounts in the store, which you can't get in the game. All I am saying is that some cosmetic items should stay in game only and reward people who invest time in getting them.

You still get the reward for investing the time. Nothing about that changed. As you said, "I will carry on playing the actual game before going the credit card route." In fact, by using the crown store shortcuts, players end up with less game to play. It is a great feeling each time I complete my 9th research trait, complete the psijic ambrosia fragments (which I would only buy if I sold a duplicate for the same price), or finish a motif (though I have been selling all my glass fragments while the market is hot).

Buying the motif would mean that I spent $40 to no longer have a sense of accomplishment. I play the game for the journey. Writs are now very lucrative anyway with nirncrux. Not doing them would just fill up my inventory with mats.

The problem some have is that they are worried about other people's cosmetic items. It is some virtual form of showing off. Anyone can buy glass gear from a crafter. The only difference with these things is a dye color. And the ability to link an achievement in chat if you are on a PC. So what is anyone actually showing off anyway?

Regarding shutting down the servers, revenue is the sum of many small items. We can always say X isn't the difference between being profitable and going out of business, but that is similar to this: http://www.theonion.com/article/how-bad-for-the-environment-can-throwing-away-one--2892

dlepi24

You haven't noticed that every other motif is in the crownstore lol?

TheValkyn

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

I know I am not alone on this. As a crafter I spent alot of time and work trying to get and learn these Glass mofits just so my dedication would be worth something. So I could standout as well as anyone i made armor for in my guild. I never thought this style would be in the crown store as it was one of the rare things to aim for in the game and be proud of. But now I will just be looked at like eveyone else who pulled out their credit card and took the non dedication easy route.
One more reason why I cant wait for Camelot Unchained because the actual CRAFTER CLASS will be very important and needed and rewarding and there will be no game store for real money to buy things like this!

They already said that they were going to put it on the Crown Store months ago. I don't see the big surprise here.

UltimaJoe777

I wouldn't call it a slap in the face. Don't know about ya'll but I'd rather earn my Motifs than pay $40 for 5500 crowns just to buy one, especially since I have 3 characters that each main a crafting skill to use them, ultimately ending up costing me $120.

Yeah I'll stick to earning my way up. Let those that don't care about bragging rights spend their money on them lol

JamilaRaj

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

I never thought this style would be in the crown store as it was one of the rare things to aim for in the game and be proud of. But now I will just be looked at like eveyone else who pulled out their credit card and took the non dedication easy route.

You insensitive clod! To earn dollars for motifs requires time, work and dedication too! I had to deny myself lunches for a month to save up enough for the prestigious glass motif!

Anorak

Iluvrien wrote: »

Anorak wrote: »

This isn't a slap in the face to anyone when you consider the fact that you have a story to tell behind how you learned to craft it. It is the same as getting a mount from completing a hard raid and buying the mount from a store. The fact is you earned it and will be seen as someone who is more knowledgeable and dedicated.

Also chill out it doesn't do anything extra for people and costs a *** ton of crowns. I mean you act like they sell it for 100 crowns.

Yes it is. Look at the threads when motifs were first placed in the crown store. I, among others, posted detailed explanations as to why their inclusion would (and now has) affected the crafting economy that we had experienced up to that point.

You can argue that this change is something that [snip] needs to generate income. To argue that it does not affect dedicated crafters is demonstrably wrong. My own experience is evidence of this.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how you are a dedicated crafter and have fun. Also it does not matter as you still earn it. Get upset if you want but just because someone can craft a style (one that someone may not even want on there gear) that they paid money for but you worked for. The fact is you have a story to tell... it is the same as when I beat vdsa with everyone in the group never having completed it on any character. We worked our asses off for that moment yet someone could just get carried through and get the same title. The story is what you want not the crafting motif or title.

[edited to remove quote]

k9mouse

Many people feel the same way as I do about the glass style in the crown store:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3ozbAg_Fbo

Iluvrien

Anorak wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Anorak wrote: »

This isn't a slap in the face to anyone when you consider the fact that you have a story to tell behind how you learned to craft it. It is the same as getting a mount from completing a hard raid and buying the mount from a store. The fact is you earned it and will be seen as someone who is more knowledgeable and dedicated.

Also chill out it doesn't do anything extra for people and costs a *** ton of crowns. I mean you act like they sell it for 100 crowns.

Yes it is. Look at the threads when motifs were first placed in the crown store. I, among others, posted detailed explanations as to why their inclusion would (and now has) affected the crafting economy that we had experienced up to that point.

You can argue that this change is something that [snip] needs to generate income. To argue that it does not affect dedicated crafters is demonstrably wrong. My own experience is evidence of this.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how you are a dedicated crafter and have fun. Also it does not matter as you still earn it. Get upset if you want but just because someone can craft a style (one that someone may not even want on there gear) that they paid money for but you worked for. The fact is you have a story to tell... it is the same as when I beat vdsa with everyone in the group never having completed it on any character. We worked our asses off for that moment yet someone could just get carried through and get the same title. The story is what you want not the crafting motif or title.

No. In the crafting economy people aren't interested in how you got the ability to craft in a particular style, just whether you can do so or not. Of course, if they can buy it themselves with some leftover crowns from a sub (or similar) and cut out having to hunt for, and discuss an order with, a crafter at all... they may well do that instead. This is what Crown Store inclusion does, it works to destroy the crafting economy...

...and even better, they didn't even both to address the concerns in ESO Live. Nice way to let us know that you are listening, ZOS.

k9mouse wrote: »

Many people feel the same way as I do about the glass style in the crown store:...

No kidding. Maybe now that someone actually important has raised this, rather than we non-streaming plebians, ZOS might actually dredge up a response. I'm glad that Elloa put out a video on this. I truly am.

[edited to remove quote]

Mojmir

If ZOS really wanted to make money and knew [snip] they we're doing as a business they'd have released the xivkyn polymorphs and motif in the store.
Also add a advance character progression to vr1 scroll, so we can skip the quests for the 6th+ time.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Iluvrien

newtinmpls wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

I don't grind, I don't spaz, I don't reflexively buy every new weird thing the crown store offers. I do still sub, so if/when I see something I want, I generally have the crowns to get it.

When others buy cosmetic/expensive items - I cheer. More longevity for the game, more fun for me.

If you grind, it's because you chose to. Deal with your choices.

Iluvrien wrote: »

Interesting idea. Alright then, do feel free to tell me how to remain a part of the crafting economy without buying the motif from the crown store or grinding.

<snip>

So, please, tell me how I circumvent the system so as to carry on doing what I enjoy doing (crafting for others) without having to pay attention to the fundamental change in approach that ZOS has imposed.

You seem to have confused two completely different points I was making. I will attempt to untangle them.

1-ZoS needs to simultaneously do two things: produce high quality gaming content, and keep the company running (and pay for) that development. This means that the occasional chunks of DLC/upgrades (I find the Justice System and IC in some ways comparable - but that's another sub-discussion) are going to be bankrolled by ongoing items in the store. As has been noted elswhere, the mounts and motifs are quite common.

Sub-point here: MMO's, even MMOPRGs are in a constant state of flux. Unlike single player games, they must constantly (or relatively ongoing-ly [yeah, I know that's not really a word] ) change things. Like tweaks, nerfs and the Justice System. So change will regularly happen, and as you note it will occasionally feel/be "fundamental".

You cannot continue to do exactly what you were/are doing for the entire life of the game (however long that may be). Change happens and will continue to happen.

Who's talking about not having to adapt to any change whatsoever? I have already posted that I would be more than happy to see Glass be as difficult to obtain as Dwemer. That was already a change to the initial structure of obtaining motifs. I saw that as an acceptable middle ground between the original all-or-nothing motif books that could be found and a pointlessly extended grind just to increase the time before people got bored of any new motif that was added.

The approach to Glass is not in the acceptable middle ground. It is a pointlessly extended grind. The reasoning for this has now become obvious with the near-instant inclusion of the motif on the Crown Store. This isn't about not accepting change, this is about letting ZOS know that this a change that goes too far. It has been done before (30gate for example) and ZOS has changed its approach.

newtinmpls wrote: »

2-Any given person playing the game has choices. I happen to really like crafting for others as well. However due to my intermittant and multi-player and chaotic playstyle, the highest of my 16 characters is currently vet 3. I like to gather materials and deconstruct. So I have hundreds of most of the materials up to vet 1-3, and probably at least one stack of 200 of the higher stuff (at any given time).

Two low "level" crafting sets that seem always to be in general demand are Seducer and Night's Silence. Popular styles are Breton and Imperial. So semi-regularly, I go off to one (or both) crafting stations, make a bunch of items of various levels in these sets, and put them up for sale in my guild stores. The "peripheral" items (basically everything other than curiass and leggings) tend to sell best, probably because people can still customize a lot of their look (and mix and match sets) and be extra picky about what sort of style/look they choose (there is that word again) for their most visible armor bits.

I choose a crafting style that does not require grinding. A style that does not require fancy motifs. That is what I offer and suggest.

Then you don't do crafting-to-order then. That approach to providing equipment requires that you don't decide for the client what motifs or traits you do or don't supply. The very strength of a for-order crafter is their ability to cover all of the bases. I can't do that anymore, so I expect that if I do continue to craft it will be in the sterile, non-interactive way you have described through using guild stores. You can thank ZOS for removing that possibility for me.

newtinmpls wrote: »

No, I would not advise you to "circumvent the system", nor would I unrealistically expect you to be able to do the exact same crafting the exact same way in a game that does not stay the same.

Strawman. You can accept the game doesn't stay the same without accepting specific decisions/changes that you believe harms aspects of it. Still, it is nice to see you accept that ZOS has made this playstyle untenable.

newtinmpls wrote: »

I would say consider what IS. Then choose. Then take responsibility for having chosen.

Or take a stand against it in the hope that ZOS is capable of both listening and learning. In the hope that they don't make the same mistake with the motifs to come. Of course if they do the same with the next motif then they really will prove that they have no interest in supporting the crafting economy and the community it creates. I have been an uninterrupted subscriber since PC early access. They put the next motif straight into the Crown Store with another grind like this attached to it? Sub cancelled. I have no illusions that they will care about that... but I care about this.

newtinmpls

First off @Lurien I love your passion for the game and for crafting.

Iluvrien wrote: »

I have already posted that I would be more than happy to see Glass be as difficult to obtain as Dwemer. That was already a change to the initial structure of obtaining motifs. I saw that as an acceptable middle ground between the original all-or-nothing motif books that could be found and a pointlessly extended grind just to increase the time before people got bored of any new motif that was added.

The approach to Glass is not in the acceptable middle ground. It is a pointlessly extended grind. The reasoning for this has now become obvious with the near-instant inclusion of the motif on the Crown Store. This isn't about not accepting change, this is about letting ZOS know that this a change that goes too far. It has been done before (30gate for example) and ZOS has changed its approach.

Good points; I know of the gated situation and the use of 'taco' in recipes that were both changed in response to feedback; so there is hope.

Iluvrien wrote: »

The very strength of a for-order crafter is their ability to cover all of the bases.

My spouse (primary gaming partner which is probably more applicable in this context) is a crafter more similar to what you describe. He will take 'orders' from friends, guildies and so on, and is very familiar with the various areas/crafting locations in-game. Sounds like for a dedicated crafter one important aspect would be to get the motifs as soon as possible.

I almost wish there was a way in-game (or in-guild) to "register" as a crafter and to have special access. I would not do it, but something like that could benifit you and other crafters. Probably impractical, but I can dream.

I'd said:

newtinmpls wrote: »

I would say consider what IS. Then choose. Then take responsibility for having chosen.

Iluvrien wrote: »

Or take a stand against it in the hope that ZOS is capable of both listening and learning. In the hope that they don't make the same mistake with the motifs to come.

I do agree that avocating for what is needed/wanted and what could improve the game (and to change what is imparing the game) are all important things to do and I respect you for the energy that takes.

I will also say that I think your objections here are on a higher/more mature level than the "gimmie/nerf this/that" threads which seem to proliferate too often on these forums.

On the other hand....

IF ZoS needs to have stuff in the crown store that pays for the game AND overt pay to win stuff is not on the table .. .then it seems that motifs are going to be a big item and they will show up. I have to say that I was very pleased to see glass going for double the price of the DLC. It seemed to me this would make it more likely to appeal to the "gimmie" crowd, who are likely to get bored and do something else. I thought that price would make it (slightly?) less likely to interfere with crafting type people - seemed to be pricing to a different market, if you know what I mean.

As for my choice rants - that's me. Even while asking/advocating for stuff (see my many many posts on the "I would pay X crowns for" thread) I also think it's important to let go of being in that emotional/spaz place of constantly internally growling. That's not fun for me - it doesn't look like it's fun for you.

YMMV

SahrotRein

Too soon?

acw37162

Sorry you still have Xviken if your dying to chase a style.

Love the option to buy it or find it.

Conquistador

It's kind of sad that it's out so early after its release. To compile one motif, it's extremely hard unless you are buying fragments off people, which requires a lot of gold that most people do not have. After that, you have to pray to the Gods that it's not one you already know and then AFTER THAT, you have to hope its not a stupid part like belts. If you get duplicates, you need to sell it or trade it and you're already losing money doing that because they weren't worth as much as 10 fragments + a resin. Now, since you dropped the crown store motif, the glass motif prices are going to drop even further, making it useless to build motif parts with 10 fragments.

Zenimax, you killed part of the game in less than a month of your DLC, haha. Nice work, someone should be fired, but since you are chasing actual money; I guess that is all that matters in the gaming industry. Really though, shame on you for releasing it so early. Prices of writ materials are so high right now that it's bleeding players of their gold and one of their primary sources of income is now cut [snip]

[edited for bashing]