Eclipse

driosketch

Ezareth wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Kobaal wrote: »

Just wait until your in a group and eclipse the wrong person and get hit with 4 or 5 Dawnbreakers of smiting by the same guy wiping out your entire group. Bet you'll stop using it then.

Buggy game is buggy. It happens. If you stopped using every ability that screwed you over you'd end up with very little on your bars these days. I know I'd never be able to use Crit-charge.

Bit of an exaggeration, but really you have to weigh the usefulness of the skill versus the drawback. I've loved eclipse ever since they fixed the ability lock bug, but I've taken it off the bar as it has limited use against the current meta with a pretty strong liability.

As far as limited use in the current meta how do you figure? It completely shuts down magick DKs (even screws the wings on stamina DKS) and forces every magic damage based class in the game to break free. If you're playing objectives keeping all the NPCs eclipsed removes most of the damage dealing abilities and reactively using it against most sorcs will usually save your life and often kill the sorc if they're not careful. I've killed myself on my own sorc by 2-shotting myself with power overload by a templar casting a well timed eclipse.

I guess to each their own but this is an ability that when used with proper skill is a game changer IMO.

There are a lot more stamina builds in Cyrodiil, and plenty of dawnbreak users. I think only AD runs an abundance of sorcerers still, which is where I go to complete that kill quest. Zergs trains are all AoE damage. I'd still spam them with with unstable core for damage, but the skill isn't doing more than that. I've found blazing spear a much more useful skill in a wider number of situations, including CCing tower mages. In fact I was dropping it on top of eclipse, which made it less useful since stunned enemies don't cast spells.

Eclipse might be the bane of a player with your build, but unless I'm certain to face a specific build, I don't use it currently in PvP. Really, this is a minor example of what you see in many nerf threads. Someone on the receiving end of a skill at it's most effective might see the skill as powerful. Where as the user of said skill has x number of success and failures to judge the skill by. All I can tell you is after getting hit by double dawnbrakers I made the decision that I was hurting my side by continuing to use the skill indiscriminately, and it's usefulness in an uncommon match up for me does not currently earn it a slot.

cazlonb16_ESO

Eclipse exemplifies the current state of the Templar class. Once in a blue moon, when pigs fly and unicorns roam the streets it's a fantastic ability.

Usually it'll just be buggy, clunky and more often than not not work at all due to immunities.

Considering the class already has severe problems cramming enough skills into the 12 slots to be prepared for a reasonable range of situations, I currently can't justify a slot for an ability with such specific uses.

Cinbri

ToRelax wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I think some people here need to be on the receiving end for once if they think that you can cc break it makes the spell useless.
Just imagine how powerful it would be if you could not - since players already use cc break jsut to get rid of that debuff for a few seconds.

Well that's a good point but it has nothing to do with CC'ing someone. If they add a small knockback or maybe root on it after it cc breaked/cleansed like fossilise, then it would make sense.
People currently casting crystal shards and break Eclipse immediately after for free cc immunity and the shards still hits to target (ok not so free, you still use stamina but you neither get CC'ed nor your projectile is reflected. so its kinda free)

Or that new soft cc immunity thingy can work for this one If it's even real.

I agree that the use of this skill kind of increases the lack of cc the templar has at his disposal, and even though I do not have a better idea how to solve it right now, I don't like the current design very much.
However, are you sure people can cast procced crystal fragments, cc break and the fragments still hit?
I know I ignored Eclipse in a similar way in teh early months of the game, but it only worked when I was hardcasting fragments and finished with a cc break. Similarly, when I use Meteor today, it consistently gets reflected when the Eclipse was on me the moment I used the skill (and otherwise not).

It it easy to get rid of Eclipse without notice, only thing that makes it harder is server lag. All hail LAGS.
Btw i still wanna see in 1.7 how Eclipse reflecting stamina abilities.

Lava_Croft

I like the combination of Dragon Knight, Meteor, Reflective Scales and Eclipse as shown in one of @Raizin's videos. Meteor pinball.

Raizin

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I like the combination of Dragon Knight, Meteor, Reflective Scales and Eclipse as shown in one of @Raizin's videos. Meteor pinball.

pew pew

Soris

ToRelax wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I think some people here need to be on the receiving end for once if they think that you can cc break it makes the spell useless.
Just imagine how powerful it would be if you could not - since players already use cc break jsut to get rid of that debuff for a few seconds.

Well that's a good point but it has nothing to do with CC'ing someone. If they add a small knockback or maybe root on it after it cc breaked/cleansed like fossilise, then it would make sense.
People currently casting crystal shards and break Eclipse immediately after for free cc immunity and the shards still hits to target (ok not so free, you still use stamina but you neither get CC'ed nor your projectile is reflected. so its kinda free)

Or that new soft cc immunity thingy can work for this one If it's even real.

I agree that the use of this skill kind of increases the lack of cc the templar has at his disposal, and even though I do not have a better idea how to solve it right now, I don't like the current design very much.
However, are you sure people can cast procced crystal fragments, cc break and the fragments still hit?
I know I ignored Eclipse in a similar way in teh early months of the game, but it only worked when I was hardcasting fragments and finished with a cc break. Similarly, when I use Meteor today, it consistently gets reflected when the Eclipse was on me the moment I used the skill (and otherwise not).

Hmm may bad. After some testing with darkflare on mage guards, I figured it actually reflects the projectile but that ping pong effect (reflected projectile animation) doesn't playing. So it looks like you don' reflect. Thanks to the damage meter addons I could actually see what was going on.

It also reflects damage from Dawnbreaker, and also it allows multiple Dawnbreaker casts. Not sure what is going on here but I think it has to do with either Eclipse morphs or Dawnbreaker morphs. See Raizin's latests video for reflected Dawnbreakers.

So buggy again.

Alcast

Ohhhh you got already CC Immunity?

Hahahah noob cant put Eclipse on me OP shizzle. Aint working

thats how usefull this skill is

Joy_Division

Alcast wrote: »

Ohhhh you got already CC Immunity?

Hahahah noob cant put Eclipse on me OP shizzle. Aint working

thats how usefull this skill is

Without question the most irritating aspect of this skill. Amazed so few people complain about it.

Cinnamon_Spider

What it all comes down to is that different skills will work for some people and not for others, but that doesn't mean they're useless. For now, I think it is really useful and it will keep a place on my bars.

Dredlord

Quite frankly the skill is garbage even without the bugs.

The major flaws are it cant be applied while the enemy is stun immune, it uses the breakout mechanic to remove it and grants the cc immunity.

It should be able to be applied any time and use the purge/cleanse mechanic to remove it.

It is only useful on clueless opponents that are easily defeated even without it.

I never slot I on my Templar, love it when someone uses it on me for the immunity I get. When fighting someone with it, it's like having immovable on my bar without having to slot it...

ToRelax

Dredlord wrote: »

Quite frankly the skill is garbage even without the bugs.

The major flaws are it cant be applied while the enemy is stun immune, it uses the breakout mechanic to remove it and grants the cc immunity.

It should be able to be applied any time and use the purge/cleanse mechanic to remove it.

It is only useful on clueless opponents that are easily defeated even without it.

I never slot I on my Templar, love it when someone uses it on me for the immunity I get. When fighting someone with it, it's like having immovable on my bar without having to slot it...

So that every magicka build is forced to run purge or cleansing ritual? Doesn't sound like a very well thought out solution.

Lava_Croft

Apart from the Jesus Beam, Eclipse is the Templar skill I am most scared of. Any group that has a Templar spamming Eclipse is a group that is greatly pissing off Magicka users. Awesome skill.

cazlonb16_ESO

ToRelax wrote: »

So that every magicka build is forced to run purge or cleansing ritual? Doesn't sound like a very well thought out solution.

In a lot of PvP situations you should do that anyway.

ToRelax

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

So that every magicka build is forced to run purge or cleansing ritual? Doesn't sound like a very well thought out solution.

In a lot of PvP situations you should do that anyway.

In many situations it is good to have, but that doesn't mean one should use it.
Not sure how this helped the discussion now, honestly.

Cinbri

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Apart from the Jesus Beam, Eclipse is the Templar skill I am most scared of. Any group that has a Templar spamming Eclipse is a group that is greatly pissing off Magicka users. Awesome skill.

Eclipse cost same as BoL, i.e. most expensive skills. Spamming BoL with invested Apprentice CP giving much more profit than Eclipse, but ofc if its not 10v2. Skill increasing survivability mostly of caster only, so this is must have skill for solo or 4-men group but useless for big groups.

Mr_Nobody

Imagine if Eclipse worked the same way as talons did There would be an increase of Stamina Sorcs & DKs ~

Too bad ZoS' baby DK is the only one to have annoying spammable CCs.

Cinbri

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Imagine if Eclipse worked the same way as talons did There would be an increase of Stamina Sorcs & DKs ~

Too bad ZoS' baby DK is the only one to have annoying spammable CCs.

Not just that. For now templar can't stand on frontline and hold enemies as long as dk can. Switching Eclipse to self-buff like Scales would make them on par in survivability.

Vilestride

Eclipse is no doubt useful, of course it's not as effective for everyone but it can definitely change a fight. I think a few small things could happen to the skill to make it 100% viable though.

1: I think it could (should IMO) have a more subtle animation/graphic. it is 100% the easiest debuff to see yourself in, and just making it little less so would make it a lot more effective, catching people who aren't paying as much attention as they should be.

2: If it cant be applied it should at least have some effect. say for example if the damage morph still did the damage or the healing morph still gave you a small heal over time ect.

3: fix the bugs (but this is a no brainer, all bugs should be fixed I have no clue how they keep braking abilities that seemed to have previously had no issues)

4: Seeing as I play templar go ahead and make it OP and reflect single target stam to lololol, that'd be nice

If you don't like it because its "circumstantial" then you are seeing it wrong. every build is circumstantial and always has a counter, eclipse is a great counter for many otherwise OP builds. I as a vampire use it alot because it covers one of my biggest weakness's, hard hitting flame lash DK's. just gotta use what is viable for yourself.

Ezareth

Giahh wrote: »

Eclipse is no doubt useful, of course it's not as effective for everyone but it can definitely change a fight. I think a few small things could happen to the skill to make it 100% viable though.

1: I think it could (should IMO) have a more subtle animation/graphic. it is 100% the easiest debuff to see yourself in, and just making it little less so would make it a lot more effective, catching people who aren't paying as much attention as they should be.

2: If it cant be applied it should at least have some effect. say for example if the damage morph still did the damage or the healing morph still gave you a small heal over time ect.

3: fix the bugs (but this is a no brainer, all bugs should be fixed I have no clue how they keep braking abilities that seemed to have previously had no issues)

4: Seeing as I play templar go ahead and make it OP and reflect single target stam to lololol, that'd be nice

If you don't like it because its "circumstantial" then you are seeing it wrong. every build is circumstantial and always has a counter, eclipse is a great counter for many otherwise OP builds. I as a vampire use it alot because it covers one of my biggest weakness's, hard hitting flame lash DK's. just gotta use what is viable for yourself.

Exactly. Eclipse is more useful in an outnumbered scenario than a zerg versus zerg scenario. Since Cinn and I play 2 V X all day eclipse is usually pretty awesome for us. A lot of times she'll get 2 DKs stuck to her or several sorcs and eclipse is the only thing saving her from death. I can't CC everyone at once in a 2 v 6 or 2 v 8.

I guess every ability has its place and its uses.

Seri

Giahh wrote: »

1: I think it could (should IMO) have a more subtle animation/graphic. it is 100% the easiest debuff to see yourself in, and just making it little less so would make it a lot more effective, catching people who aren't paying as much attention as they should be.

That's a tough one. I run eclipse on my bar, and while it is definitely a situation tool, I also need to be able to see when I've applied it successfully.

3: fix the bugs (but this is a no brainer, all bugs should be fixed I have no clue how they keep braking abilities that seemed to have previously had no issues)

One can dream

4: Seeing as I play templar go ahead and make it OP and reflect single target stam to lololol, that'd be nice

On the plus side, templar will actually have CC type move (again).

If you don't like it because its "circumstantial" then you are seeing it wrong. every build is circumstantial and always has a counter, eclipse is a great counter for many otherwise OP builds. I as a vampire use it alot because it covers one of my biggest weakness's, hard hitting flame lash DK's. just gotta use what is viable for yourself.

^^ this. Eclipse is one of the few things stopping me exploding vs sorcs and lash DKs.

Dredlord

ToRelax wrote: »

Dredlord wrote: »

Quite frankly the skill is garbage even without the bugs.

The major flaws are it cant be applied while the enemy is stun immune, it uses the breakout mechanic to remove it and grants the cc immunity.

It should be able to be applied any time and use the purge/cleanse mechanic to remove it.

It is only useful on clueless opponents that are easily defeated even without it.

I never slot I on my Templar, love it when someone uses it on me for the immunity I get. When fighting someone with it, it's like having immovable on my bar without having to slot it...

So that every magicka build is forced to run purge or cleansing ritual? Doesn't sound like a very well thought out solution.

Fail logic is fail....because the same flimsy argument can be used for every purgeable ability in the game.

Oh noes! now I have to run purge because of treb any dot/any root/any snare/any debuff/any purgeable ability!!!!

btw you only need a couple of purgers in the group, try not to be so dramatic.

Dredlord

Giahh wrote: »

1: I think it could (should IMO) have a more subtle animation/graphic. it is 100% the easiest debuff to see yourself in, and just making it little less so would make it a lot more effective, catching people who aren't paying as much attention as they should be.

That's a tough one. I run eclipse on my bar, and while it is definitely a situation tool, I also need to be able to see when I've applied it successfully.

3: fix the bugs (but this is a no brainer, all bugs should be fixed I have no clue how they keep braking abilities that seemed to have previously had no issues)

One can dream

4: Seeing as I play templar go ahead and make it OP and reflect single target stam to lololol, that'd be nice

On the plus side, templar will actually have CC type move (again).

If you don't like it because its "circumstantial" then you are seeing it wrong. every build is circumstantial and always has a counter, eclipse is a great counter for many otherwise OP builds. I as a vampire use it alot because it covers one of my biggest weakness's, hard hitting flame lash DK's. just gotta use what is viable for yourself.

^^ this. Eclipse is one of the few things stopping me exploding vs bad sorcs and bad lash DKs who don't know they can just breakout and pick up some free cc immunity.

there, fixed.

ToRelax

Dredlord wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Dredlord wrote: »

Quite frankly the skill is garbage even without the bugs.

The major flaws are it cant be applied while the enemy is stun immune, it uses the breakout mechanic to remove it and grants the cc immunity.

It should be able to be applied any time and use the purge/cleanse mechanic to remove it.

It is only useful on clueless opponents that are easily defeated even without it.

I never slot I on my Templar, love it when someone uses it on me for the immunity I get. When fighting someone with it, it's like having immovable on my bar without having to slot it...

So that every magicka build is forced to run purge or cleansing ritual? Doesn't sound like a very well thought out solution.

Fail logic is fail....because the same flimsy argument can be used for every purgeable ability in the game.

Oh noes! now I have to run purge because of treb any dot/any root/any snare/any debuff/any purgeable ability!!!!

btw you only need a couple of purgers in the group, try not to be so dramatic.

Damage can be healed. I don't know how you conclude from the fact there are other purgeable abilities in the game to the statement I should have someone with Purge in my group anyway, but it's certainly not logic.

Besides, with a "couple" of purgers in my group, there wouldn't be anyone left without Purge.

Dredlord wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

[...]

Giahh wrote: »

If you don't like it because its "circumstantial" then you are seeing it wrong. every build is circumstantial and always has a counter, eclipse is a great counter for many otherwise OP builds. I as a vampire use it alot because it covers one of my biggest weakness's, hard hitting flame lash DK's. just gotta use what is viable for yourself.

^^ this. Eclipse is one of the few things stopping me exploding vs bad sorcs and bad lash DKs who don't know they can just breakout and pick up some free cc immunity.

there, fixed.

Actually Eclipse is a very useful skill even against the best players (assuming they use magicka builds).
You're not much into high end dueling, are you?
I also repaired your quote..

Seri

Dredlord wrote: »

If you don't like it because its "circumstantial" then you are seeing it wrong. every build is circumstantial and always has a counter, eclipse is a great counter for many otherwise OP builds. I as a vampire use it alot because it covers one of my biggest weakness's, hard hitting flame lash DK's. just gotta use what is viable for yourself.

^^ this. Eclipse is one of the few things stopping me exploding vs bad sorcs and bad lash DKs who don't know they can just breakout and pick up some free cc immunity.

there, fixed.

You say that like the rest of templar skills don't already hand out free immunity

Vilestride

Seri wrote: »

Dredlord wrote: »

If you don't like it because its "circumstantial" then you are seeing it wrong. every build is circumstantial and always has a counter, eclipse is a great counter for many otherwise OP builds. I as a vampire use it alot because it covers one of my biggest weakness's, hard hitting flame lash DK's. just gotta use what is viable for yourself.

^^ this. Eclipse is one of the few things stopping me exploding vs bad sorcs and bad lash DKs who don't know they can just breakout and pick up some free cc immunity.

there, fixed.

You say that like the rest of templar skills don't already hand out free immunity

haha, I facepalm every time my biting jabs give someone that little kick back, and am tempted every time I land one to swap out toppling charge for invasion. (though the damage is no where near as good)

Kas

while we're at it, i have to out myself as a noob w.r.t eclipse.
does it work on:

soul harvest(unsure)/incapitating strike(i guess this morph is not reflected because it seems to be physical regardless the tooltip)
concealed weapon
burning embers/unstable flame
reflective light (if main target/if not main target. i'm sure it works on vbane)
valkyn skoria procs
camo hunter procs
?

Kas

Kas wrote: »

while we're at it, i have to out myself as a noob w.r.t eclipse.
does it work on:

soul harvest(unsure)/incapitating strike(i guess this morph is not reflected because it seems to be physical regardless the tooltip)
concealed weapon
burning embers/unstable flame
reflective light (if main target/if not main target. i'm sure it works on vbane)
valkyn skoria procs
camo hunter procs
?

ugh sorry, mesed up edit/quote

Cinbri

Please support this thread:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/201565/revert-eclipse-cap-change?new=1

Kas wrote: »

while we're at it, i have to out myself as a noob w.r.t eclipse.
does it work on:

soul harvest(unsure)/incapitating strike(i guess this morph is not reflected because it seems to be physical regardless the tooltip)
concealed weapon
burning embers/unstable flame
reflective light (if main target/if not main target. i'm sure it works on vbane)
valkyn skoria procs
camo hunter procs
?

Don't remember some of it, but we could test it one-by-one.