@Zeni - Please reconsider the cumulative 50% cost increase to BE

k2blader

Hi Zeni devs / designers / lurkers,

I can only guess the intent behind the announced cumulative 50% cost increase to BE is to prevent sorcs from "bolting away endlessly" in Cyrodiil.

However, there are many sorcs who don't use BE for that reason; rather we use it for strategic and positioning purposes-- both offensive and defensive-- when engaging in battle. I believe the morphs of BE are specifically designed for those purposes in order to allow light-armored sorcs to be an active part of the fray with some means to challenge and/or survive enemy damage and CC.

So while implementing the announced additive cost on BE will likely end player complaints of sorcs "bolting away endlessly," it will also significantly negatively impact the natural play style of the class by reducing sorcerers' maneuverability as described above. Maneuverability via BE is essential to proper functioning of the class in PvP, in any active battle scenario. Even without this newest penalty to BE, sorcerers will already have to endure the harsher cost of dodge roll (being the class with the lowest stamina pool) and the reduction to defensive shields.

Maybe the plan is to take the approach of "let's see how it pans out"-- but I hope you'll consider all the implications of a disproportionate cost increase to BE before allowing it to go live. I don't want to have to wait months for "readjustments" after the fact. I don't want to have to give up playing the class I enjoy most because its design has been made too dysfunctional to be enjoyable in PvP.

Hopefully when the PTS is up, if not sooner, the announced BE cost increase will be evaluated thoroughly and fairly. I think you'll find the additive cost penalty at that percentage increase will result in unintended consequences detrimental to the sorcerer class and ultimately to class variety in PvP. Please keep the sorc class functional and fun. :-)

Thank you for reading!

ToRelax

I don't think the combat team is able to consider even a fraction of the implications in most of their "balance" changes, but I wish you luck...

leepalmer95

Instead of spamming it 6 times, just don't and use it when it's actually benefitial.

Hypertionb14_ESO

im fine with a hard limit on Bolt Escape and Roll Dodge.

the Block changes however seriously worry me... as its clearly a purely PvP intended change that will have drastic concequences for PvE gameplay that ZOS is SEVERELY underestimating...

its bad enough that many tanks utterly fail with the currently avilable mechanics... now finding a good tank will be next to impossible....

Domander

How many times in a row do you need to bolt escape to "strategically position"

kevlarto_ESO

As someone said in these forums it is Bolt ESCAPE not Bolt TRAVEL... plus with the regen rates in this game, it may not be as much gloom and doom as you think, it will be on the pts at some point.

tist

It's just poor design. As someone who uses streak offensively often I don't want to sit there and have to wait and make sure 4 seconds have passed so I can use it again. Make the skill reset on enemy player hit or by casting an offensive spell on a player.

Turelus

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

im fine with a hard limit on Bolt Escape and Roll Dodge.

the Block changes however seriously worry me... as its clearly a purely PvP intended change that will have drastic concequences for PvE gameplay that ZOS is SEVERELY underestimating...

its bad enough that many tanks utterly fail with the currently avilable mechanics... now finding a good tank will be next to impossible....

Actually one of the things they spoke about was their dislike in PVE that a tank would enter a dungeon and just hold block.
When they developed the game they invisioned a combat where players reacted to incoming power attacks or hits by bringing their shields up at the right times, however in the current state of the game a tank can enter a fight hold block and spam magicka skills with out ever losing block.

Honestly although I am sacred of the change I do feel it's better for the game PVE and PVP wise. It means tanks will be a bit more active in their gameplay past taunt and block endlessly.

olsborg

the % stacking is far too high...50%, 33% would be better and not penalize those that use it "properly" in combat

Kupoking

Sorry OP, bolt is not balanced right now and the 50 percent cost is needed. Sorcs still have other weapon in their arsenal.

As of maneuverability, sorcs can still instantly blink 10+ yards away while stunning everyone in the way. No other class has this and no other games has this, unless its available to everyone.

Its just that now, you wont see a sorc chase a scroll across the map on streak and manage to get enough magika then to stun the whole raid.

Francescolg

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

As someone said in these forums it is Bolt ESCAPE not Bolt TRAVEL... plus with the regen rates in this game, it may not be as much gloom and doom as you think, it will be on the pts at some point.

THIS and you still will be able to do double/triple bolt escape, without loosing too much mana, so the mobility is still there but not infinite! You can still bolt into the enemy, do your stuff (mine field, bomb, etc.) and escape again without the malus.. (and many other possibilities)

And please, TE, do not try to "rewash" old arguments by using new terms like "maneuverability". We've used the word "mobility" for months now... Even "escapability" is better! You're not the greece-gov. who needs to be "creative"..! ;-)
There are enough threads about Bolt Escape, why do we need more!?

BigTone

Please see:
forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190454/the-big-problem-with-the-bolt-escape-nerf/p1

k2blader

olsborg wrote: »

the % stacking is far too high...50%, 33% would be better and not penalize those that use it "properly" in combat

Agreed. 33% would be much more reasonable (if it "has to" be done).

I think a good majority of sorcs use BE "properly" so I just don't get who are these people still crying over BE "spam." Once a night when I see an enemy sorc seemingly "spamming" he's not harming anyone. It's like, "Hmmk, who is a threat."

[edit] typo

k2blader

BigTone wrote: »

Please see:
forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190454/the-big-problem-with-the-bolt-escape-nerf/p1

Yep, thanks, good thread.

Thought maybe a Zeni lurker or two might visit this forum as well.

david31741

k2blader wrote: »

I can only guess the intent behind the announced cumulative 50% cost increase to BE is to prevent sorcs from "bolting away endlessly" in Cyrodiil.

However, there are many sorcs who don't use BE for that reason; rather we use it for strategic and positioning purposes-- both offensive and defensive-- when engaging in battle.

LOL

chevalierknight

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

im fine with a hard limit on Bolt Escape and Roll Dodge.

the Block changes however seriously worry me... as its clearly a purely PvP intended change that will have drastic concequences for PvE gameplay that ZOS is SEVERELY underestimating...

its bad enough that many tanks utterly fail with the currently avilable mechanics... now finding a good tank will be next to impossible....

Dont comment on changes plz as you seem to have not read them its in pvp only you're a qqer

k2blader

david31741 wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

I can only guess the intent behind the announced cumulative 50% cost increase to BE is to prevent sorcs from "bolting away endlessly" in Cyrodiil.

However, there are many sorcs who don't use BE for that reason; rather we use it for strategic and positioning purposes-- both offensive and defensive-- when engaging in battle.

LOL

Care to expand? In skirmishes I typically use BoL as a defensive measure against magicka builds or to move away from a melee build who will smash me if I don't.

Or is all you can say "lol" because you have nothing reasoned or reasonable to contribute?

TheElementalPlatypus

k2blader wrote: »

david31741 wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

I can only guess the intent behind the announced cumulative 50% cost increase to BE is to prevent sorcs from "bolting away endlessly" in Cyrodiil.

However, there are many sorcs who don't use BE for that reason; rather we use it for strategic and positioning purposes-- both offensive and defensive-- when engaging in battle.

LOL

Care to expand? In skirmishes I typically use BoL as a defensive measure against magicka builds or to move away from a melee build who will smash me if I don't.

Or is all you can say "lol" because you have nothing reasoned or reasonable to contribute?

k2blader clearly understands what he is saying and has extremely good reasoning for why this nerf is atrocious, not thought out, and all around hurtful to sorcs as a class. Sorc has one playstyle, one main set of skills for a build. We cant go stamina (We can but it SUCKS and will be impossible next patch). There is very little variety. What defines a sorc? I would say cfrags, curse, hardened ward, and bolt, all stand out.

Any class can catch up if they BUILD for mobility, all you NB's say "Equip radiant magelight not to get oneshot" so for us equip a skill to catch up! It takes a good 6-8 bolts in a hectic situation to get space, have a moment, and effectively target your opponents. Its extremely easy to spam gap closers and if you cant do that to a sorc you should l2p before you qq.

NB's are going to be 90% of the game next patch because of cloak, cloak is what bolt is, an escape, but next patch it will AVOID ALL DAMAGE (as it already does) but I mean IT REALLY WILL, because it will be "fixed" and extremely easy to sit in. We have to use AoE to pull them out? Sorc's only practical AoE is streak, as it is NOW I have to use streak 5-6 times to keep pulling a cloak spamming NB out of cloak.

and yes, it will be doom and gloom.

Also to whatever idiot on ZOS thought bolt was the problem, it wasnt, if you played your game it was our 30k shields we could infinitely stack due to your removal of softcaps.

Removal of softcaps removed skill, no resource management, nothing anymore, spam everything without thinking. But when something has a penalty, THAT STACKS, its ridiculous. Hey ZOS newsflash, we couldnt spam bolt as much if you didnt remove softcaps.

k bye

hereiamhereibe2

I use Bolt escape as an attack an hardly ever use it within the 4 seconds its on cooldown so this is fine to me, in fact The Only time i spam bolt escape is when im trying to catch up to another Bolt Escaping coward. So ya i like this fix.

leepalmer95

How many times do you 'strategically position' yourself in 4 seconds? , for sorc's that actually use the skill properly and not just spam it or teleport half of cyrodiil with it, the change is fine.

Theres more QQ BE threads than there is dodging or Blocking threads, stamina builds are being nerfed with both there survivability xD

BigTone

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

NB's are going to be 90% of the game next patch because of cloak, cloak is what bolt is, an escape, but next patch it will AVOID ALL DAMAGE (as it already does) but I mean IT REALLY WILL, because it will be "fixed" and extremely easy to sit in. We have to use AoE to pull them out? Sorc's only practical AoE is streak, as it is NOW I have to use streak 5-6 times to keep pulling a cloak spamming NB out of cloak.

THIS is one of my big issues. Against a nightblade I use streak to pull them out of cloak. The big problem now is that the streak/cloak battle puts me at a disadvantage because the damaging ability I am using to counter the person trying to escape has been nerfed, not the ability of the person trying to escape.

If a nighblade and a sorc have equal amounts of magicka and the sorc is trying to streak to pull the nightblade out of stealth, the sorc will run out of magicka MUCH faster

TheElementalPlatypus

leepalmer95 wrote: »

How many times do you 'strategically position' yourself in 4 seconds? , for sorc's that actually use the skill properly and not just spam it or teleport half of cyrodiil with it, the change is fine.

Theres more QQ BE threads than there is dodging or Blocking threads, stamina builds are being nerfed with both there survivability xD

Problem number 1. You cant explain "using a skill properly". Its a skill, if its being used, its being used properly. Was cloak intended to be spammed? No but next patch with half of my friends list and a quarter of all my guilds already rerolling NB (if they havent already) cloak will only be the ruler of cyrodiil, as anyone and almost everyone has predicted, NB's will be the best (were already) but this time have less competition.

Problem number 2. You dont play a sorc, and if you did, you might be able to use your brain and realize WHY we are forced to spam it, sometimes not even to runaway. If 90% of cyrodiil wasnt "24 man raids" (yes I'm looking at you all you people who say "we dont zerg" yes I've played in the 24 man environment all you have to do is spam a few buttons and stay on crown = profit, for people with a larger brain capacity and less enjoyment of being a mindless zombie, we dont enjoy that), then maybe we wouldnt have everyone rerolling 2 classes (and next patch) NB because it is the only that can escape that. For you zegers any class is fine, for the rest of us we are more pigeon holed into one viable option.

Zsymon

It does seem like ZOS wants to completely eliminate small scale and solo combat in Cyrodil, it makes sense in a way since Cyrodil was meant for large armies, but at the same time I think it will cause a lot of players to quit, as they feel being reduced to a zergling is far too boring, and there are no player skill-heavy alternatives such as arenas. If ZOS continues on this road they will eliminate all use for player skill in PvP.

Rakshat

leepalmer95 wrote: »

How many times do you 'strategically position' yourself in 4 seconds? , for sorc's that actually use the skill properly and not just spam it or teleport half of cyrodiil with it, the change is fine.

Theres more QQ BE threads than there is dodging or Blocking threads, stamina builds are being nerfed with both there survivability xD

BE spam is how sorcs avoid damage. And no, I don't mean running away. Sorcs don't have any other means to sustain apart from one shield that is also getting nerfed in next update (not complaining about that one), and bound armor that no sane person would ever use. Do you expect a light armored sorc to just stand in place hard-casting frags? Do you know how many hits it would take to kill him? None. He would suicide on someones shield reflect.

BrassRazoo

Sorc is dead in the water after next patch.
Time to rethink skills or even the class as a whole.

leepalmer95

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

How many times do you 'strategically position' yourself in 4 seconds? , for sorc's that actually use the skill properly and not just spam it or teleport half of cyrodiil with it, the change is fine.

Theres more QQ BE threads than there is dodging or Blocking threads, stamina builds are being nerfed with both there survivability xD

Problem number 1. You cant explain "using a skill properly". Its a skill, if its being used, its being used properly. Was cloak intended to be spammed? No but next patch with half of my friends list and a quarter of all my guilds already rerolling NB (if they havent already) cloak will only be the ruler of cyrodiil, as anyone and almost everyone has predicted, NB's will be the best (were already) but this time have less competition.

Problem number 2. You dont play a sorc, and if you did, you might be able to use your brain and realize WHY we are forced to spam it, sometimes not even to runaway. If 90% of cyrodiil wasnt "24 man raids" (yes I'm looking at you all you people who say "we dont zerg" yes I've played in the 24 man environment all you have to do is spam a few buttons and stay on crown = profit, for people with a larger brain capacity and less enjoyment of being a mindless zombie, we dont enjoy that), then maybe we wouldnt have everyone rerolling 2 classes (and next patch) NB because it is the only that can escape that. For you zegers any class is fine, for the rest of us we are more pigeon holed into one viable option.

i play a dk, unfortunately dk's don't have convenient spamable 'runaway' skills such as cloak or bolt, i don't see why using it once every few seconds is really a problem, combine it with some cc/stuns/knockdowns and you won't need to escape as much.

AbraXuSeXile

BoL should get the nerf, not streak. Its the BOL sorcs who run away forever. The streak sorcs are killable because they are offensive. Your also messing up streak which we use to kill trains, dodge roll is another tool to kill trains.

xMois

I feel like they just need to set aside some time to make PvP and PvE work differently. It's annoying that I (a mostly PvE player) constantly have stuff nerfed out of existence just because it might work too well against other players.

AbraXuSeXile

xMois wrote: »

I feel like they just need to set aside some time to make PvP and PvE work differently. It's annoying that I (a mostly PvE player) constantly have stuff nerfed out of existence just because it might work too well against other players.

I completely agree with this and ive said this from the start.

Balancing Pve and Pvp along with getting rid of soft caps has now allowed unlimited overpowered silly builds which will in turn all get nerfed patch by patch till the end of ESO. You cant give unlimited freedom in an MMO you will never get balance and it will lead to angry nerfed gamers, less populations and a deserted game.

In my opinion the developers are naive to think giving so much freedom wont be abused.

#bringbacksoftcaps

eliisra

leepalmer95 wrote: »

i play a dk, unfortunately dk's don't have convenient spamable 'runaway' skills such as cloak or bolt, i don't see why using it once every few seconds is really a problem, combine it with some cc/stuns/knockdowns and you won't need to escape as much.

It is a problem, because they want to be able to escape a zerg or larger group clearly. Than cc, knockdown or whatever skill is pointless. You either manage to escape/disengage or you die. Than you do need to Bolt Escape 10 times in a row.

DK+ templars cant gtfo as you might know, not even with Mist Form since you're still on target and Taloned. We always die when a raid spots us solo or small group and back to sneak- or riding simulator. But sorcs still have a good chance, with ridiculous amount if shield and BoL, allowing them to roam solo and freely in Cyrodiil while having loads of fun.

I guess the fundamental question is whether it should be possible to roam around solo and get away from zergs? I think so of course, more play styles the better. No one should feel forced to always be in a group. But I also feel all classes should be able to do it, not just sorcs. Apparently ZoS disagrees, since NB will be the only viable option for solo roaming in 1.7 with pretty much unbreakable cloak. At least based on the little info we have.

SkylarkAU

Anyone know if the cumulative effect wears off 4 seconds after your first bolt, or after the last bolt you use?

Anyway, I've been paying more attention to how I use the ability with 1.7 in mind and the reality is (for me at least) when using it offensively anymore than 2 streaks in a row is blatantly wasteful.. it's either streak to cc then again to re-position/gap close, or streak to evade then again to cc/re-position.

I think many sorcs (me especially) have become a bit lazy since the last major update, basking themselves in nirn and bolting away when things get hot rather than working on more resilient and adaptive builds and play styles. With the changes to dodge and block coming in to effect at the same time as the changes to BE I think it's positive on the whole.