Hi Zeni, please FIX NIRN

R0M2K

Yeah yeah, Rainbows & Unicorns...

k2blader

R0M2K wrote: »

Yeah yeah, Rainbows & Unicorns...

Not sure what game you're playing, but if you've decided to use nirn and are a stamina build, you shouldn't be having many probs with sorcs unless you're annoyed they're bolting away which isn't actually hurting you.

byrom101b16_ESO

R0M2K wrote: »

@Snit: Finish leveling where? In Howarts?

1- Perma roll requires a particular combo of gear+champion points, you sacrife stuff to achieve that, besides theres skills atm that go trough roll.
2- The fact that the "Shared stamina pool" issue was long discussed in the past changes nothing in the present, it has not been fully adressed, its like the vampire&fire thing, you can compensate the negative impact, but in doing so you sacrifice something somewhere.



All i see is Sorcs wanting to insta gib players while maintaining shields up, bolt escape, that having a full resource avaliable just to block/roll a bit while their magica regenerates and start again.

The fact that a stamina user has a bigger stamina pool/regeneration doesnt change the fact that the resource its shared with block/roll/sprint/break free...


But to me the real big offender in this Mag vs Sta war is:

A stamina user who sprints or moves shealthed stops regenerating stamina.
A magica user who sprints or moves shealthed keeps regenerating magica.



One last thing sir, with 33k spell res im still being hit by 10k-15k dmg from magica skills (non ult), so maybe its you the one who needs to finishing leveling in the goblins lair.

Let me correct a few things here;

A stamina user who sprints isn't using a closing skill and needs to ltp; and when stealthed gets a fat crit bonus on the first attack, unlike magicka.

A magicka user who sprints in combat is DESPERATE at that point; or when moving in stealth goes slower and uses their limited stamina pool much faster, and cannot auto-crit. attack.

One last thing to you too, sir. With 33K spell resist, you are NOT getting hit for 10-15K damage from 'magicka skills'. You might get a full procced and boosted frags hit from a highly CP buffed Sorc with Crystal Frags if you have your pants down not blocking, forgot to watch for the tell and didn't dodge, and are debuffed with Elemental Drain.

You just need more PvP practice and to stop grossly exaggerating your claims about magicka skill damage in general, when the rare times you get hit for this damage it's a 'best case scnerio' situation you partially or totally handed to your opponent.

The frequency you suffer this is up to you...

Septimus_Magna

Nirn will be adjusted to be more in line with the other traits, probably its will work similar to reinforced but with a higher percentage. The adjustment will be made in the next Major Content update, so when Imperial City and Orsinium come (probably around September).

Also if you dont use nirn on LA atm you dont have any spell damage mitigation because the spell penetration of most magicka build players is around 12k. I think the nirn value should increase if you have low armor rating, this will make it good for LA and not over the top for MA/HA builds.

Tankqull

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

R0M2K wrote: »

@Snit: Finish leveling where? In Howarts?

1- Perma roll requires a particular combo of gear+champion points, you sacrife stuff to achieve that, besides theres skills atm that go trough roll.
2- The fact that the "Shared stamina pool" issue was long discussed in the past changes nothing in the present, it has not been fully adressed, its like the vampire&fire thing, you can compensate the negative impact, but in doing so you sacrifice something somewhere.



All i see is Sorcs wanting to insta gib players while maintaining shields up, bolt escape, that having a full resource avaliable just to block/roll a bit while their magica regenerates and start again.

The fact that a stamina user has a bigger stamina pool/regeneration doesnt change the fact that the resource its shared with block/roll/sprint/break free...


But to me the real big offender in this Mag vs Sta war is:

A stamina user who sprints or moves shealthed stops regenerating stamina.
A magica user who sprints or moves shealthed keeps regenerating magica.



One last thing sir, with 33k spell res im still being hit by 10k-15k dmg from magica skills (non ult), so maybe its you the one who needs to finishing leveling in the goblins lair.

Let me correct a few things here;

A stamina user who sprints isn't using a closing skill and needs to ltp; and when stealthed gets a fat crit bonus on the first attack, unlike magicka.

A magicka user who sprints in combat is DESPERATE at that point; or when moving in stealth goes slower and uses their limited stamina pool much faster, and cannot auto-crit. attack.

One last thing to you too, sir. With 33K spell resist, you are NOT getting hit for 10-15K damage from 'magicka skills'. You might get a full procced and boosted frags hit from a highly CP buffed Sorc with Crystal Frags if you have your pants down not blocking, forgot to watch for the tell and didn't dodge, and are debuffed with Elemental Drain.

You just need more PvP practice and to stop grossly exaggerating your claims about magicka skill damage in general, when the rare times you get hit for this damage it's a 'best case scnerio' situation you partially or totally handed to your opponent.

The frequency you suffer this is up to you...

he might, but it is due to the overflowbug in combination with those laughable 1k shields attached to some (stamina)skills/CP passives.

Tankqull

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Nirn will be adjusted to be more in line with the other traits, probably its will work similar to reinforced but with a higher percentage. The adjustment will be made in the next Major Content update, so when Imperial City and Orsinium come (probably around September).

Also if you dont use nirn on LA atm you dont have any spell damage mitigation because the spell penetration of most magicka build players is around 12k. I think the nirn value should increase if you have low armor rating, this will make it good for LA and not over the top for MA/HA builds.

i would change nirn to give a significant % bonus to spell resists while giiving a severe reduction of the same amount towards physical resists.

e.g. it grants 20% spell reists while costing you 20% physical resists anything but light armor users will think twice if it is worth beeing used ...

R0M2K

Let me correct a few things here;

A stamina user who sprints isn't using a closing skill and needs to ltp; and when stealthed gets a fat crit bonus on the first attack, unlike magicka.

A magicka user who sprints in combat is DESPERATE at that point; or when moving in stealth goes slower and uses their limited stamina pool much faster, and cannot auto-crit. attack.

Oh man.

Soooo you asume that a Stamina player sprinting is a noob because hes not using a gap-closer and that a Magica user sprinting is just desperate.

You trolling? Theres lots of reasons to sprint, the more common one for me is the "cant mount while in combat thing"...

And know what, im spending my skill main resource AND stoping regenerating Stamina in doing so, while a Magica user regenerates its skill resource while sprinting... Ltp you say?


- And the part you say Magica skills dont get a dmg boost from Shealth... Ltp you said?
- And the part you say Magica users move slower in Shealth... Ltp you say?



You made me lol, give you credit for that.... Sir, Howarts to ltp.

eliisra

Molsondry wrote: »

Stamina users have ONE pool to block, dodge and use skills, and the stamina pool stop regenerating while runing or moving sealthed.

Do you even stam dude?

Stamina builds would rage-quit the game if dodge got it's own resource pool lol. You want it to cost stamina, it's a huge advantage since 1.6, being able to gain survivability and dmg, when only boosting one single recourse pool and it's recovery rate up to insane numbers. You even get dodge cost/cc break reduction and cheaper skills, when using Glyph of Reduce Feat Cost on jewellery.

How many times would you be able to dodge if there was a 4th resource? How much stamina, weapon dmg and stamina recovery would you be forced to sacrifice, when investing in this new resource? You also need cost reduction and recovery invested in a completely new resource. This would not be a good thing, for any pure stamina build. So please, find a more up
up-to-date argument.

Nirn: It's one of the few things keeping me alive in PvP right now. When stacking nirn, only 50-60% of the players or the stamina users, will do insane dmg. Especially since I'm forced to play vampire, because my class has 0 escapes or magicka based speed buffs and that's just mandatory in 1.6. I need my nirn badly against all fire nukes, like Meteor spam. Rememberer that nirn also protects against a lot of ultimates, even if the user is a stamina build.

Yes, it's clearly a biased trait. It's also highly unfair that all magicka users gets their dmg almost split in half, to boost overall survivability in PvP. But I honestly dont want to remove it just like that. Other adjustments are needed simultaneously.

olsborg

Fix nirn, im currently on a break indefinately until its fixed.

R0M2K

Fix Nirn ok, then make Magica to stop regenerating while sprinting/moving shealthed.

Snit

R0M2K wrote: »

Fix Nirn ok, then make Magica to stop regenerating while sprinting/moving shealthed.

You confuse me. Serious question -- is your character veteran rank? Because virtually all stamina builds find it advantageous to have dodge/ break free and their primary damage skills share a resource pool. That means they can optimize that pool, both for maxi stam and recovery.

Many of us thought stamina would be at a disadvantage because of this shared pool back when we were level 23 in a hodgepodge of green-and-blue non-set gear. But the exact opposite holds true when you level up and buy any sort of proper kit. If you're posting from the perspective of a low-level character, please point that out. Most of us are discussing what life looks like at or near endgame.

R0M2K

@Snit:

Care to explain whyyyyyyy magica keeps regenerating while sprinting or moving shealthed????

I freaking see no reason to that... If you are running or moving shealthed you should lose the concentration required to extract the powers from Howarts...


And the shared pool concern is still valid and will always be unless some benefit is given to Stamina builds, in whatever form: let it be a bigger Stamina pool per stamina point or a bigger dmg to stamina skills or a non-stopping stamina regeneration while running/moving shealthed... SOMETHING, ANYTHING.

A Magica user in light armor has the same benefits a Stamina user has in medium armor while sharing the pool with NOTHING and NEVER stoping regenerating it.... yet you asj for Nirn nerf, COME ON.

Septimus_Magna

R0M2K wrote: »

Fix Nirn ok, then make Magica to stop regenerating while sprinting/moving shealthed.

Stamina regenerates while sprinting/moving in stealth so why would this be different for magicka? Almost every stamina build has enough stamina regen (and sneak cost reduction) that they regen stamina even when moving in stealth. Magicka builds already have to stop moving when they sneak for a longer period because their stamina regen is pretty low.

R0M2K

[Stamina regenerates while sprinting/moving in stealth so why would this be different for magicka?

No, it doesnt.

Normally a Stamina build has 800-2xxx sta regeneration, sprinting/moving shealthed reduces it to 1x or so, and probably thats an unintended secondary effect of the CP system/ Legerdemain skill line.

So while yes, technically you regenerate, it can not be compared to the usual regen rate, you are comparing a regen rate in the thousand scale vs a regen rate in the decimal scale.

Besides, you, as a Magica user keep regenerating Magica at the usual rate no matter what, thats unfair, and before you start with the "but you have a bigger sta pool/better sta regen" song, so you do with light armor/magica.

Septimus_Magna

R0M2K wrote: »

[Stamina regenerates while sprinting/moving in stealth so why would this be different for magicka?

No, it doesnt.

Normally a Stamina build has 800-2xxx sta regeneration, sprinting/moving shealthed reduces it to 1x or so, and probably thats an unintended secondary effect of the CP system.

So while yes, technically you regenerate, it can not be compared to the usual regen rate, you are comparing a regen rate in the thousand scale vs a regen rate in the decimal scale.

Besides, you, as a Magica user keep regenerating Magica at the usual rate no matter what, thats unfair, and before you start with the "but you have a bigger sta pool/better sta regen" song, so you do with light armor/magica.

Fist of all, regen doesnt stop but when you move while sneaking your stamina is drained. As medium armor build you already have a huge buff towards sneaking. With full medium armor (-28% sneak cost) and legerdemain max level (-40% sneak cost), total -68% sneak cost reduction without any CPs invested.

If a stamina build stops moving for a few seconds his stamina is fully regenerated, while a magicka build has to wait 30 seconds to get his entire stamina pool back. This is while sneaking in combat, if you're out of combat stamina regen is much higher ofc.

And why is it unfair that magicka regens during sneaking? Your magicka also regenerates and no matter what class you play you will always have a couple magicka based skills on your bar.

R0M2K

Fist of all, regen doesnt stop but when you move while sneaking your stamina is drained.

1- Stand still and press "C" key to bring up your character stats sheet.
2- Note down the Stamina regeneration number.

Now:

3- Start sprinting or moving shealthed.
4- Keep sprinting/moving shealthed while you press the "C" key again, look at the stamina regeneration number.
5- Say Hello.

As medium armor build you already have a huge buff towards sneaking. With full medium armor (-28% sneak cost) and legerdemain max level (-40% sneak cost), total -68% sneak cost reduction without any CPs invested.

So what? I still spend my main resource pool, you dont, AND i stop regenerating it TOO, you dont either.

You get Spell penetration while using light armor, besides other things, i get other stuff.

If a stamina build stops moving for a few seconds his stamina is fully regenerated, while a magicka build has to wait 30 seconds to get his entire stamina pool back

If you want to compare use your resource, so the rigth question should be:

do you have to stop to regain your Magica? NO.

Vis

k2blader

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Nirn will be adjusted to be more in line with the other traits, probably its will work similar to reinforced but with a higher percentage. The adjustment will be made in the next Major Content update, so when Imperial City and Orsinium come (probably around September).

I am really hoping for sooner than that. A temporary "partial fix" should *not* be hard to implement.

Also if you dont use nirn on LA atm you dont have any spell damage mitigation because the spell penetration of most magicka build players is around 12k. I think the nirn value should increase if you have low armor rating, this will make it good for LA and not over the top for MA/HA builds.

I like that idea. Basically I think the logic of armor should be heavier armor mitigates physical damage most and is weaker against spell damage, while lighter armor mitigates physical damage least and is strong against spell damage. Whatever the case, one particular armor shouldn't "have it all" with regard to mitigation.

byrom101b16_ESO

R0M2K wrote: »

Let me correct a few things here;

A stamina user who sprints isn't using a closing skill and needs to ltp; and when stealthed gets a fat crit bonus on the first attack, unlike magicka.

A magicka user who sprints in combat is DESPERATE at that point; or when moving in stealth goes slower and uses their limited stamina pool much faster, and cannot auto-crit. attack.

Oh man.

Soooo you asume that a Stamina player sprinting is a noob because hes not using a gap-closer and that a Magica user sprinting is just desperate.

You trolling? Theres lots of reasons to sprint, the more common one for me is the "cant mount while in combat thing"...

And know what, im spending my skill main resource AND stoping regenerating Stamina in doing so, while a Magica user regenerates its skill resource while sprinting... Ltp you say?


- And the part you say Magica skills dont get a dmg boost from Shealth... Ltp you said?
- And the part you say Magica users move slower in Shealth... Ltp you say?



You made me lol, give you credit for that.... Sir, Howarts to ltp.

I was going to counterpoint everything you raised here as they are all either wrong footed, or just plain wrong.

But I read the rest of the thread and realised your true goal, which no amount of logic is going to deflect.

It's also a very, very old and tired cliché to accuse others of trolling to hide the fact you are doing it yourself, and only people half asleep or half-witted typically fall for it. Might I suggest you use an alternate tactic in future?

byrom101b16_ESO

k2blader wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Nirn will be adjusted to be more in line with the other traits, probably its will work similar to reinforced but with a higher percentage. The adjustment will be made in the next Major Content update, so when Imperial City and Orsinium come (probably around September).

I am really hoping for sooner than that. A temporary "partial fix" should *not* be hard to implement.

Also if you dont use nirn on LA atm you dont have any spell damage mitigation because the spell penetration of most magicka build players is around 12k. I think the nirn value should increase if you have low armor rating, this will make it good for LA and not over the top for MA/HA builds.

I like that idea. Basically I think the logic of armor should be heavier armor mitigates physical damage most and is weaker against spell damage, while lighter armor mitigates physical damage least and is strong against spell damage. Whatever the case, one particular armor shouldn't "have it all" with regard to mitigation.

Indeed.

There might, in some strange and badly balanced MMO somewhere, be versions of multi-damage-source mitigation armour which have the same meta as post 1.6... but this would be the extreme exception, not the rule...

... although after playing a fair few MMOs, can't say I have ever seen anything remotely similar...

That said, the 1.6 rebalance, as is now evident, entirely invalidated the use of Light Armour for anything but the passive reducing spell cost, which unfortunately means the poor saps using magicka still need to use it. They simultaneously vastly boosted stamina damage, even from range... and put medium and heavy armour spell resistance through the roof, and then put it in orbit with Nirn... and to add insult to injury, made CPs relevant to spell resistance percentage based, making it almost multiplicative.

All to deal with magicka spike damage in PvP, which would have been infinitely simpler to fix by reducing the damage...

They essentially created a ridiculous and unbalanced damage re-adjustment and mitigation 'arms race' out of nothing, making subsequent rebalancing much harder.

Go figure...

k2blader

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Nirn will be adjusted to be more in line with the other traits, probably its will work similar to reinforced but with a higher percentage. The adjustment will be made in the next Major Content update, so when Imperial City and Orsinium come (probably around September).

I am really hoping for sooner than that. A temporary "partial fix" should *not* be hard to implement.

Also if you dont use nirn on LA atm you dont have any spell damage mitigation because the spell penetration of most magicka build players is around 12k. I think the nirn value should increase if you have low armor rating, this will make it good for LA and not over the top for MA/HA builds.

I like that idea. Basically I think the logic of armor should be heavier armor mitigates physical damage most and is weaker against spell damage, while lighter armor mitigates physical damage least and is strong against spell damage. Whatever the case, one particular armor shouldn't "have it all" with regard to mitigation.

Indeed.

There might, in some strange and badly balanced MMO somewhere, be versions of multi-damage-source mitigation armour which have the same meta as post 1.6... but this would be the extreme exception, not the rule...

... although after playing a fair few MMOs, can't say I have ever seen anything remotely similar...

That said, the 1.6 rebalance, as is now evident, entirely invalidated the use of Light Armour for anything but the passive reducing spell cost, which unfortunately means the poor saps using magicka still need to use it. They simultaneously vastly boosted stamina damage, even from range... and put medium and heavy armour spell resistance through the roof, and then put it in orbit with Nirn... and to add insult to injury, made CPs relevant to spell resistance percentage based, making it almost multiplicative.

All to deal with magicka spike damage in PvP, which would have been infinitely simpler to fix by reducing the damage...

They essentially created a ridiculous and unbalanced damage re-adjustment and mitigation 'arms race' out of nothing, making subsequent rebalancing much harder.

Go figure...

Yeah, I hear you; though I have to mildly disagree with the bolded part. If stealth snipes have the potential to easily exceed damage done by, say, frags and overload (which people sometimes forget is an ultimate), why should sorc damage be nerfed?

I know all the issues going on are a complicated screwup-- I mean, mess-- but it seems the major problem is people die in 1-2 seconds far too often. JMO, I think a fair/fun fight time shouldn't be any shorter than about 8-10 seconds. It should be such that on average folks feel they have the ability to fight back.

[edit]: Wanted to add, maybe a temporary fix til Zeni figures things out (cough) would be to increase the standard health buff upon entry to any vet campaign.

byrom101b16_ESO

k2blader wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Nirn will be adjusted to be more in line with the other traits, probably its will work similar to reinforced but with a higher percentage. The adjustment will be made in the next Major Content update, so when Imperial City and Orsinium come (probably around September).

I am really hoping for sooner than that. A temporary "partial fix" should *not* be hard to implement.

Also if you dont use nirn on LA atm you dont have any spell damage mitigation because the spell penetration of most magicka build players is around 12k. I think the nirn value should increase if you have low armor rating, this will make it good for LA and not over the top for MA/HA builds.

I like that idea. Basically I think the logic of armor should be heavier armor mitigates physical damage most and is weaker against spell damage, while lighter armor mitigates physical damage least and is strong against spell damage. Whatever the case, one particular armor shouldn't "have it all" with regard to mitigation.

Indeed.

There might, in some strange and badly balanced MMO somewhere, be versions of multi-damage-source mitigation armour which have the same meta as post 1.6... but this would be the extreme exception, not the rule...

... although after playing a fair few MMOs, can't say I have ever seen anything remotely similar...

That said, the 1.6 rebalance, as is now evident, entirely invalidated the use of Light Armour for anything but the passive reducing spell cost, which unfortunately means the poor saps using magicka still need to use it. They simultaneously vastly boosted stamina damage, even from range... and put medium and heavy armour spell resistance through the roof, and then put it in orbit with Nirn... and to add insult to injury, made CPs relevant to spell resistance percentage based, making it almost multiplicative.

All to deal with magicka spike damage in PvP, which would have been infinitely simpler to fix by reducing the damage...

They essentially created a ridiculous and unbalanced damage re-adjustment and mitigation 'arms race' out of nothing, making subsequent rebalancing much harder.

Go figure...

Yeah, I hear you; though I have to mildly disagree with the bolded part. If stealth snipes have the potential to easily exceed damage done by, say, frags and overload (which people sometimes forget is an ultimate), why should sorc damage be nerfed?

I know all the issues going on are a complicated screwup-- I mean, mess-- but it seems the major problem is people die in 1-2 seconds far too often. JMO, I think a fair/fun fight time shouldn't be any shorter than about 8-10 seconds. It should be such that on average folks feel they have the ability to fight back.

[edit]: Wanted to add, maybe a temporary fix til Zeni figures things out (cough) would be to increase the standard health buff upon entry to any vet campaign.

I didn't tackle the post 1.6 stamina meta as the thread wasn't about that, so we are not disagreeing as much as focussing on different aspects of the mess Zenimax made of the damage and mitigation balance of the game.

k2blader

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

I didn't tackle the post 1.6 stamina meta as the thread wasn't about that, so we are not disagreeing as much as focussing on different aspects of the mess Zenimax made of the damage and mitigation balance of the game.

Understood, cheers. :-)

At this point, it would be really nice to hear, I dunno, some update from Zeni maybe (??), on the progress/way forward with regard to nirn. I don't think there was any mention in that PvP update thingy....

I know most people are probably like: "Get with the times, use nirn"
but I'm like: "NO"
so they're like: "'K 'den get rekt"
and I'm like: ":-("

k2blader

Hiiiii Zeniiiiii, please don't forget to fix nirn.

Also:

PeggymoeXD

When templars use other skills besides RD spam, I will remove my nirn. That is literally the only reason I wear it.

k2blader

PeggymoeXD wrote: »

When templars use other skills besides RD spam, I will remove my nirn. That is literally the only reason I wear it.

I can understand. I'm not saying to remove it or make it utterly useless. Just needs some balancing.


@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler : Any updates on the nirn issue?

R0M2K

"The Nirn issue" haha ha, still asking for a Nirn nerf? Check both Deltias/Sypher Sorcs builds.

Vanzen

Reduce the nirn bonus by 50%, make reinforced on par.

Joy_Division

PeggymoeXD wrote: »

When templars use other skills besides RD spam, I will remove my nirn. That is literally the only reason I wear it.

I only "spam" RD because it's the only skill I have that hits perma-dodge rollers.

Yonkit

R0M2K wrote: »

"The Nirn issue" haha ha, still asking for a Nirn nerf? Check both Deltias/Sypher Sorcs builds.

Just because I can hit a crit whip for 12k doesn't mean there's not a problem with nirn. I was critting another player yesterday for 2.5k. He's using nirn.

If we measure this game by our ability to beat on bad players who don't know better... then sure everything is fine.