DK still in need of a reliable gapcloser (class ability)

Sensesfail13

Varicite wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Wy does NB Need a root if he has a fear?

Fear is like the exact opposite of a root... Root is soft CC that stops players from moving and never gives CC immunity.

Fear is a hard CC that makes players run away and gives CC immunity.

But you know that, of coruse. You're just trying to turn this into another NB whine thread like every other thread you post in.

Fear does not give CC immunity to a player unless the effect runs its entire course, and who in their right mind doesnt break this skill with 10+ people attempting to faceroll you while you run away not being able to anything about it... oh and the skill is spammable so youre dead to a fear spamming posse of worthless players.

Cernow

TheSunAlsoRises wrote: »

Bfish22090 wrote: »

Extended chains is a great gap closer

i remember during beta/release being pulled from walls by sieging DKs and that was a much deadlier tool than any other class's "gap closer" because now you had their entire raid beating on you. this doesn't happen now? i have not really seen this in the limited PvP i've done since coming back..

No, it doesn't happen now. Extended Chains can no longer be used to pull anyone down from elevation.

Extended Chains has its uses in PVE, but in PvP it is a wasted slot on the quickbar because it is too much of a gamble to use. You cannot reliably know if the enemy will be pulled to you, or you to the enemy or nothing at all (the most likely result). All other gap closers produce predictable results but Extended Chains is a throw of the dice.

For example, if you're trying to use it to pull an enemy out of the zerg, you likely don't want to be pulled into that zerg if it fails. And even if it does work, because there is no root or snare added by Extended Chains, usually the enemy just immediately dodge rolls or bolt escapes away before you can use another ability to snare or root them. So it is more likely to get you killed than pose a genuine threat.

Invasion or Critical Rush are much more reliable and effective PvP gap closers, but of course these are not class specific.

Varicite

Sensesfail13 wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Wy does NB Need a root if he has a fear?

Fear is like the exact opposite of a root... Root is soft CC that stops players from moving and never gives CC immunity.

Fear is a hard CC that makes players run away and gives CC immunity.

But you know that, of coruse. You're just trying to turn this into another NB whine thread like every other thread you post in.

Fear does not give CC immunity to a player unless the effect runs its entire course, and who in their right mind doesnt break this skill with 10+ people attempting to faceroll you while you run away not being able to anything about it... oh and the skill is spammable so youre dead to a fear spamming posse of worthless players.

You can't Break Free from Fear and get immunity? Because everybody else in the game can.

Let me know when breaking Roots will grant CC immunity. Because otherwise, you're just being deliberately argumentative when you know exactly what I meant.

Also, this thread isn't about Fear. But I do like how I basically said to give every class everything, and this is 2 people now who have decided to try to make this thread specifically about Fear, lol.

Varicite

Honestly, I use Crit Rush on my NB because it's a lot cheaper than Ambush and activates faster. <.<

BuggeX

@Varicite you started with, give other class somthing else, you agrue now with nb and wath you build there.
We know you are a NB Player (well i atleast know)

But we arent argueing or somthing about nb temps or sorc, we argue about dk and his lacks/umbalance of skills he has/doesnt has.

BuggeX

Back to Topic

i would like to know wath Dk skills you guys use in PVP?

i for real just use banner in one Slot and GDB (until i have vigor)
else i have just skills everyone can have

Varicite

BuggeX wrote: »

@Varicite you started with, give other class somthing else, you agrue now with nb and wath you build there.
We know you are a NB Player (well i atleast know)

But we arent argueing or somthing about nb temps or sorc, we argue about dk and his lacks/umbalance of skills he has/doesnt has.

I'm also a Sorc and DK player, which was why I was interested in this thread. I have multiples of all 3 of those classes, all at VR levels. You just seem to be focused on trying to limit my experiences to a single class.

/shrug

And in a thread talking about giving something that other classes have to a class that doesn't, it seems perfectly reasonable to point out that the classes aren't homogenized to attempt to provide a feeling of individuality.

PS) YOU are the one who started whining about Fear, which wasn't even mentioned whatsoever prior to YOUR post. Quit backpedaling. If you're going to complain, at least man up and admit it.

Gorthax

Yuke wrote: »

Wow, seems no1 is even reading the first post.

Take Flight is an Ultimate, so not a reliable gapcloser.

Crit Rush and Invasion cost over 3k Stamina -> not reliable gap closer considering having only 11k stamina with regfood.

Extended *** chains DONT WORK.

Whats wrong with you people?!

so wait....you are not a stamina build and want a gap closer and complain about using melee weapons gap closers because of the high cost of stamina associated with it? Makes PERFECT sense...... #forumwarriorlogic

Davadin

Cernow wrote: »

TheSunAlsoRises wrote: »

Bfish22090 wrote: »

Extended chains is a great gap closer

i remember during beta/release being pulled from walls by sieging DKs and that was a much deadlier tool than any other class's "gap closer" because now you had their entire raid beating on you. this doesn't happen now? i have not really seen this in the limited PvP i've done since coming back..

No, it doesn't happen now. Extended Chains can no longer be used to pull anyone down from elevation.

Extended Chains has its uses in PVE, but in PvP it is a wasted slot on the quickbar because it is too much of a gamble to use. You cannot reliably know if the enemy will be pulled to you, or you to the enemy or nothing at all (the most likely result). All other gap closers produce predictable results but Extended Chains is a throw of the dice.

For example, if you're trying to use it to pull an enemy out of the zerg, you likely don't want to be pulled into that zerg if it fails. And even if it does work, because there is no root or snare added by Extended Chains, usually the enemy just immediately dodge rolls or bolt escapes away before you can use another ability to snare or root them. So it is more likely to get you killed than pose a genuine threat.

THIS. A million times this. Great idea. POOR EXECUTION.

BuggeX wrote: »

Back to Topic

i would like to know wath Dk skills you guys use in PVP?

i for real just use banner in one Slot and GDB (until i have vigor)
else i have just skills everyone can have

igneous shield is nice when combined with rally (much better than GDB and costs a lot less - and im stamina DK)
unstable flame/fiery breath - depends if going solo or in a group. good DoT on both, flame is cheap and spammable and fiery takes away your armor...
fossilize/scale wings - depends if goin solo or group. fossilize is good for solo to stop people and its cheaper than the other (iron fist or sth?). and in group goin against a zerg of sorc, flap flap wings is still a good thing to have.

and sometimes i use molten weapon coz 40% increase is not somethin to sneeze at. if i mix-n-match heavy and wrecking blow, with molten up? deadly.

wrecking gives 20% increase to next attack
and heavy has a passive that it increase next attack too.

but that's only when im on gank mode or duel.

Varicite

Well, my main DK is a dual bow archer, as she has been since early access. She was my first character and I still play her daily, pretty much.

1.6+ left her a bit worse for wear, but she still manages.

DK skills I use are: GDB, Igneous Shield, Dragon Fire Scale, Corrosive Armor, and Fossilize.

Probably not too relevant to the topic at hand, though, as she doesn't really need a gap closer. My other DK is typical Pyromancer and is comfortable at mid ranges as well, so I never really felt the need for a gap closer there either.

BuggeX

Davadin wrote: »

and sometimes i use molten weapon coz 40% increase is not somethin to sneeze at. if i mix-n-match heavy and wrecking blow, with molten up? deadly.

wrecking gives 20% increase to next attack
and heavy has a passive that it increase next attack too.

but that's only when im on gank mode or duel.

gona give it a try, never thought about it

jkemmery

I would rather have a good stamina burst damage skill that because I can use weapon gap closers. As it stands I can build my DK as a stamina build and HOPEFULLY trade kills one to one in glass cannon mode, or I can build her as a tank with health and MAYBE get a kill in before I get mobbed and beaten down. Templars and Nightblades have ridiculous burst damage and I want some of that.

Yuke

Gorthax wrote: »

Yuke wrote: »

Wow, seems no1 is even reading the first post.

Take Flight is an Ultimate, so not a reliable gapcloser.

Crit Rush and Invasion cost over 3k Stamina -> not reliable gap closer considering having only 11k stamina with regfood.

Extended *** chains DONT WORK.

Whats wrong with you people?!

so wait....you are not a stamina build and want a gap closer and complain about using melee weapons gap closers because of the high cost of stamina associated with it? Makes PERFECT sense...... #forumwarriorlogic

oh dear goooooood....

i play a stamina build atm because of the gap closer issue i wrote down in the first post.

what else is there to say?

ah, i know:

CHAINS ARE BROKEN!!!

I dont care if people play stamina, magicka or *** naked!!! its a broken skill which doesnt work and has to be fixed! its easy as that.

This thread has gone out of control and i dont even know why?

broken skill = it doesnt work at all. they tried to fix it with 1.6. (read the *** notes) and it still doesnt work, so it seems that they have to revamp the skill to make it work.

cant be so difficult to understand

Davadin

Yuke wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

Yuke wrote: »

Wow, seems no1 is even reading the first post.

Take Flight is an Ultimate, so not a reliable gapcloser.

Crit Rush and Invasion cost over 3k Stamina -> not reliable gap closer considering having only 11k stamina with regfood.

Extended *** chains DONT WORK.

Whats wrong with you people?!

so wait....you are not a stamina build and want a gap closer and complain about using melee weapons gap closers because of the high cost of stamina associated with it? Makes PERFECT sense...... #forumwarriorlogic

oh dear goooooood....

i play a stamina build atm because of the gap closer issue i wrote down in the first post.

what else is there to say?

ah, i know:

CHAINS ARE BROKEN!!!

I dont care if people play stamina, magicka or *** naked!!! its a broken skill which doesnt work and has to be fixed! its easy as that.

This thread has gone out of control and i dont even know why?

broken skill = it doesnt work at all. they tried to fix it with 1.6. (read the *** notes) and it still doesnt work, so it seems that they have to revamp the skill to make it work.

cant be so difficult to understand

Stamina build should have a lot more stamina than that... and it's not 3k cost for crit rush. But maybe you're not VR yet or something? A bit odd.

But I don't think anyone's disputing that chain is broken. Relax. But looking at ZOS' attempt to fix it, nobody has any hope it'll suddenly become better at their next attempt.

And, um, I don't think the thread out of control either. Everybody's discussing what else can be done for DK, and for which build (because, again, if you're a stamina build, there's NOTHING wrong with using Crit Rush or stampede, or Invasion).

edit: ok i see you're Vr14. what kind of build that u don't at least have 18k of stamina? are u using a hybrid build or something?

joshisanonymous

Yuke wrote: »

We DKs cant use weapon ability gap closer in the 1.6. meta, because they are too expensive. Our defense is blocking, which costs stamina as well, we cant waste stamina for gapclosing and we shouldnt be forced to waste our champion points in the cost reduction tree for stamina abilities, only because there is no class ability gap closer that actually works (since beta btw).

Uhh, this is an incredibly poor argument. First of all, your defense does not have to be blocking; you can focus on blocking or dodging or shields; they all are possible for DKs. Second, if you're focused on blocking, that means your running a stamina build, which means that you're already focused on stacking stamina/regen/cost reduction. If weapon gap closers are too expensive for stamina builds, then who are they not too expensive for? Or maybe you're running a magicka setup. In that case, why are you focused on blocking to begin with? You should be focused on shields, which would mean your whole stamina bar can be used purely for gap closers. Of course, if you're going magicka, it's questionable that you'd want to close gaps in the first place.

I think instead of adding a new gap closer to the class, you should rethink how you build your character. You should maybe also realize that you chose possible the least mobile class in the game, meaning it doesn't cater well to the playstyle you're going for. That doesn't mean it's impossible, but you really can't expect a class built around a tank playstyle to have all sorts of easy access hit-and-run tools.

About the only thing suggested here that's fair is that the chain skill should be fixed, although even that you can blame on people who used it as a cheat to get behind scroll gates.

Lyzaaa

Varicite wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Wy does NB Need a root if he has a fear?

Fear is like the exact opposite of a root... Root is soft CC that stops players from moving and never gives CC immunity.

Fear is a hard CC that makes players run away and gives CC immunity.

But you know that, of coruse. You're just trying to turn this into another NB whine thread like every other thread you post in.

Just on a sidenote, nice try on making hard cc look rubbish compared to soft CC..

It's nearly as if you want Fear to only have a 50% slow.. Actually sounds really great, lets lose the minor maim and hard CC part and im fine being slowed, i mean the soft CC is all that matters.

Ontopic: on some part i agree DK's need a gapcloser, on the other part if we start filling in the demands of all classes we're going to end up being all the same, apart from Nightblade ( joke )

I believe that players need to figure a way to make certain things work. I have to say im not saying "yay" to a gapcloser, but something that's reliable and works together with most class skills is a big huray.

The ranges of the skills are.. yea ..

Lyzaaa

Gorthax wrote: »

Yuke wrote: »

Wow, seems no1 is even reading the first post.

Take Flight is an Ultimate, so not a reliable gapcloser.

Crit Rush and Invasion cost over 3k Stamina -> not reliable gap closer considering having only 11k stamina with regfood.

Extended *** chains DONT WORK.

Whats wrong with you people?!

so wait....you are not a stamina build and want a gap closer and complain about using melee weapons gap closers because of the high cost of stamina associated with it? Makes PERFECT sense...... #forumwarriorlogic

It actually does. DK's are forced to either use 2hander or 1h/shield to have a gapcloser and actually be able to use the class skills ( offensive ones )

The problem is that in the current state of the game, 1h/shield gives trash weapon dmg, thus trash spell dmg. Going magicka like this just makes us look like fools compared to other classes ( yes theres magicka DK's out there that made it work, but if they were any other class they'd be face rolling ) And 2h isn't even an idea..

The second problem is that as the person above stated; forced to use stamina skills when ur also forced to be magicka if you want to go offensive in the class tree.

These problems and the fact that DK offensive skills have no range, scale poorly, have shiity base damages make it really hard to make this work. Not only is it weak, u'll be forced to play in a playstyle - Which is against what this game is about..

I mean lets be honest, Crystal frags does double the dmg on proc than lash, is ranged , costs less.. And because it's ranged sorcs dont need that gapcloser.. Because it scales tremendously its easy to make yourself "scale"

But yea, not having a gapcloser is just 1 part of the DK problems. I don't necessarily feel DK's are horrible weak, I just feel the skills are a complete missmatch with eachother.

Naivefanboi

Sad state of affairs Game has so much potential, still cant get basic class abilities to function properly .....keep up the good work!

Armitas

TheSunAlsoRises wrote: »

Bfish22090 wrote: »

Extended chains is a great gap closer

i remember during beta/release being pulled from walls by sieging DKs and that was a much deadlier tool than any other class's "gap closer" because now you had their entire raid beating on you. this doesn't happen now? i have not really seen this in the limited PvP i've done since coming back..

People started pulling the other faction up keep walls so they could take it. ZOS chose to fix that problem by breaking chains through a reduction in the Z axis. Now it barely works on flat ground, but hey you can't pull people up a keep now and that is all that apparently matters.

Sharkano

People whined about being pulled off keep walls, so even though that's a "so what" issue they chose to blow the whole skill up and make it absolutely useless in pvp where someone might be standing a tad higher or lower than you. DK skills have been on a steady decline in this game, as they have hosed DK's over and over and over and over and over due to all the whiners here.

pecheckler

Forgive me for asking but I haven't participated in PvP in a year, but when did grip stop being able to pull players down from keep walls? I used to do that all the time.

tplink3r1

DKs are already imune to ranged abilities, no gap closer needed.

BuggeX

pecheckler wrote: »

Forgive me for asking but I haven't participated in PvP in a year, but when did grip stop being able to pull players down from keep walls? I used to do that all the time.

since ppl flamed

Davadin

tplink3r1 wrote: »

DKs are already imune to ranged abilities, no gap closer needed.

for 4 seconds. for 4 hits. and costs a ton of magicka.

GTFO.

BuggeX wrote: »

pecheckler wrote: »

Forgive me for asking but I haven't participated in PvP in a year, but when did grip stop being able to pull players down from keep walls? I used to do that all the time.

since ppl flamed

since 1.5.

the skill that's the poster boy of our class is now a nerfed skill that doesn't work when user is in difference height and sometimes pulls you TO your enemy. but more often than not, it simply doesn't do anything.

Armitas

tplink3r1 wrote: »

DKs are already imune to ranged abilities, no gap closer needed.

How would RS relieve the need for a gapcloser against bolt escape?

david.haypreub18_ESO

Give DKs a gap closer with a Global Cool down, sure.

Then you'd have to give Talons to Templars as well, to be fair.

Armitas

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Give DKs a gap closer with a Global Cool down, sure.

Then you'd have to give Talons to Templars as well, to be fair.

We have one, the issue is that it doesn't work, it's broken twice over. Fair is them fixing this thing.

Davadin

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Give DKs a gap closer with a Global Cool down, sure.

Then you'd have to give Talons to Templars as well, to be fair.

feel free to take our broken, underpowered Talons.

and in a matter of fact, take our chain pull too. Go ahead. Don't be shy.



But give me a real gap-closer. Or fix the two above to pre-1.5. To roughly the same power as NB's Fear. How's that?

Xsorus

Gorthax wrote: »

Yuke wrote: »

Wow, seems no1 is even reading the first post.

Take Flight is an Ultimate, so not a reliable gapcloser.

Crit Rush and Invasion cost over 3k Stamina -> not reliable gap closer considering having only 11k stamina with regfood.

Extended *** chains DONT WORK.

Whats wrong with you people?!

so wait....you are not a stamina build and want a gap closer and complain about using melee weapons gap closers because of the high cost of stamina associated with it? Makes PERFECT sense...... #forumwarriorlogic

Ummm...it does make perfect sense..

Every other class has a gap closer associated with Magicka

NBs have Teleport Strike
Templars have Toppling Charge
Sorcs have Streak

DK's are basically the only one that doesn't have a viable gap closer for Magicka Based, forcing them to use very expensive stamina based 1hd/shield charge....and notice I didn't say 2 hander...Because if you're going Magicka Based DK you're going to have to use Block as you don't have a extremely high delve shield like Sorcs and Streak to relieve pressure when you get people on ya, nor do you have Dark Cloak like a Nightblade...The class shield for a Magicka Dk is usually around 5k at most..and that's incredibly low because its going to get broken almost instantly by most attacks and then those attacks are going to be unmitigated against ya. You can't dodge a lot because you're either in Heavy or Light armor..so that leaves Blocking..Which means 1hd/shield ...Now you're probably asking..why not use two hander in your off weapon? Because you're going to want at least Destruction Staff or Restro Staff as a Ranged option, plus an ability to get Magicka Back if ya need to..So your options are basically 1hd shield and those two....and nothing else.

Meaning..invasion for 3k+ stamina on a class that's going to have around 11k stamina with food as magicka based..and relies on Blocking

So its a Valid complaint

Varicite

Lyzaaa wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Wy does NB Need a root if he has a fear?

Fear is like the exact opposite of a root... Root is soft CC that stops players from moving and never gives CC immunity.

Fear is a hard CC that makes players run away and gives CC immunity.

But you know that, of coruse. You're just trying to turn this into another NB whine thread like every other thread you post in.

Just on a sidenote, nice try on making hard cc look rubbish compared to soft CC..

It's nearly as if you want Fear to only have a 50% slow.. Actually sounds really great, lets lose the minor maim and hard CC part and im fine being slowed, i mean the soft CC is all that matters.

Ontopic: on some part i agree DK's need a gapcloser, on the other part if we start filling in the demands of all classes we're going to end up being all the same, apart from Nightblade ( joke )

I believe that players need to figure a way to make certain things work. I have to say im not saying "yay" to a gapcloser, but something that's reliable and works together with most class skills is a big huray.

The ranges of the skills are.. yea ..

In what world was I trying to make hard CC look bad? All I did was state the differences between a root and fear, which are completely different abilities.

I think you're reading way too far into this. The original post was about homogenization, this sidetracked line of thought was just 1 poster taking what I said about giving everything to all of the classes and trying to turn it into an "OMG NERF FEAR" thread, which wasn't even mentioned prior to his post.

Every class has a hard CC. Only 2 classes have AoE roots, which is used in a completely different manner than a hard CC.