Remove or change drink

Domander

and players will need to manage resources again.

Just sayin'

Soris

softcaaaaaaaap. thats all you need

Bashev

Add soft cap. Don't change them, not everyone is abusing them. Add 1500 soft cap for regen and 25000 soft cap for Magicka and Stamina. Right now there is a cap for defense but no cap for offense.

ToRelax

I'll just add this post of mine from another thread...

ToRelax wrote: »

That's a pile of...

Seriously, yes, burst is the way to go, yes TTK can be pretty low, but offense is not stronger than defense. If you build as a tank you can not expect to win a fight on your own except against very bad players. Of course, if you tank a group long enough that more people show up you may die if you're now to heavily outnumbered - or win the fight if you got some allies.
Sure, escape skills are nice, but how does that make offense stronger? Death in this game is meaningless. It does not do anything other than you have to ride a minute. And with some luck even get a nice fight on the way.

In a group, a tank is useful. You have to make a compromise between the individual playtyles in a group obviously, and that can mean a tank or a kiter or w/e is not always what you need now, but a tank can have it's use.

I have a very balanced build on my Sorc - mobility, defense, offense, support, regen, I have some of each of them and it works very well unless people use a lot of nirnhoned armor (wich will be changed).
I could deal a LOT more damage if I invested into it at the expense of defense for example. But it's not needed.

The problem that I think makes people speculate about things like these are the "infinite resources" - basically, with the removal of softcaps you are able to invest a lot more into specific attributes you favoured before already or you invest actually less and add other things to your build. For example my magicka regen is a good bit lower than it was in 1.5, but I got more cost reduction and max magicka, giving me much higher sustain and yet can use the Arena set instead of Seducer, thus gain stamina management on top of it.

A player who focuses purely on damage, will have a hard time against good players who simplay outlast him, as well as multible bad players because he often won't have the time to kill them one by one, since he is very squishy himself.
A player who focuses purely on regen, will have less damage and so on (even a build with 2500-3000 magicka/stamina regen and a lot of cost reduction will usually also have some damage, in sets and CP).
It simply wouldn't be a problem if you couldn't have to much attributes in total.

Hope someone understands what I mean, not the best post I ever wrote ^^.

Drinks are not OP. They are on par with food now. If you nerf drinks, people will use food and nothing will change because people will just invest their available resources for their build differently.

BTW:

Bashev wrote: »

Add soft cap. Don't change them, not everyone is abusing them. Add 1500 soft cap for regen and 25000 soft cap for Magicka and Stamina. Right now there is a cap for defense but no cap for offense.

I would then start using drinks, drop atronach for apprentice, go with Warlock x3, Torug's Pact x2, Engine Guardian x2, Martial Knowledge x4.
Welcome in the world where I deal more damage at the expense defense and my enemies are weaker than before, grats.

Bashev

ToRelax wrote: »

BTW:

Bashev wrote: »

Add soft cap. Don't change them, not everyone is abusing them. Add 1500 soft cap for regen and 25000 soft cap for Magicka and Stamina. Right now there is a cap for defense but no cap for offense.

I would then start using drinks, drop atronach for apprentice, go with Warlock x3, Torug's Pact x2, Engine Guardian x2, Martial Knowledge x4.
Welcome in the world where I deal more damage at the expense defense and my enemies are weaker than before, grats.

I said that there is no cap for offense (spell damage, weapon damage). I just don't know what numbers will be fine. Probably 2000?

Jitterbug

Bashev wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

BTW:

Bashev wrote: »

Add soft cap. Don't change them, not everyone is abusing them. Add 1500 soft cap for regen and 25000 soft cap for Magicka and Stamina. Right now there is a cap for defense but no cap for offense.

I would then start using drinks, drop atronach for apprentice, go with Warlock x3, Torug's Pact x2, Engine Guardian x2, Martial Knowledge x4.
Welcome in the world where I deal more damage at the expense defense and my enemies are weaker than before, grats.

I said that there is no cap for offense (spell damage, weapon damage). I just don't know what numbers will be fine. Probably 2000?

Off the top of my head, and purely for arguments sake:

Softcaps
Health 30k
Stam/Mag 25k
Spell/Weapon damage 3k
Stam/Mag regens 2k

Bashev

Jitterbug wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

BTW:

Bashev wrote: »

Add soft cap. Don't change them, not everyone is abusing them. Add 1500 soft cap for regen and 25000 soft cap for Magicka and Stamina. Right now there is a cap for defense but no cap for offense.

I would then start using drinks, drop atronach for apprentice, go with Warlock x3, Torug's Pact x2, Engine Guardian x2, Martial Knowledge x4.
Welcome in the world where I deal more damage at the expense defense and my enemies are weaker than before, grats.

I said that there is no cap for offense (spell damage, weapon damage). I just don't know what numbers will be fine. Probably 2000?

Off the top of my head, and purely for arguments sake:

Softcaps
Health 30k
Stam/Mag 25k
Spell/Weapon damage 3k
Stam/Mag regens 2k

Spell/Weapon damage 3k is too much.

Jitterbug

Bashev wrote: »

Jitterbug wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

BTW:

Bashev wrote: »

Add soft cap. Don't change them, not everyone is abusing them. Add 1500 soft cap for regen and 25000 soft cap for Magicka and Stamina. Right now there is a cap for defense but no cap for offense.

I would then start using drinks, drop atronach for apprentice, go with Warlock x3, Torug's Pact x2, Engine Guardian x2, Martial Knowledge x4.
Welcome in the world where I deal more damage at the expense defense and my enemies are weaker than before, grats.

I said that there is no cap for offense (spell damage, weapon damage). I just don't know what numbers will be fine. Probably 2000?

Off the top of my head, and purely for arguments sake:

Softcaps
Health 30k
Stam/Mag 25k
Spell/Weapon damage 3k
Stam/Mag regens 2k

Spell/Weapon damage 3k is too much.

I won't argue, cause it's mostly as a thought experiment I posted that, but seeing as 4k can be achieved do you figure half that would be more appropriate?

ToRelax

Bashev wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

BTW:

Bashev wrote: »

Add soft cap. Don't change them, not everyone is abusing them. Add 1500 soft cap for regen and 25000 soft cap for Magicka and Stamina. Right now there is a cap for defense but no cap for offense.

I would then start using drinks, drop atronach for apprentice, go with Warlock x3, Torug's Pact x2, Engine Guardian x2, Martial Knowledge x4.
Welcome in the world where I deal more damage at the expense defense and my enemies are weaker than before, grats.

I said that there is no cap for offense (spell damage, weapon damage). I just don't know what numbers will be fine. Probably 2000?

You would have to bring back softcaps in every stat that had one pre 1.6, and rather lower than it was 1.5, than higher (x10).

A change that would allow me to simply swap around my attributes with little to no effect in my actual performance, or just stay on my level of power, wouldn't really balance things out, right?

Jitterbug wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Jitterbug wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

BTW:

Bashev wrote: »

Add soft cap. Don't change them, not everyone is abusing them. Add 1500 soft cap for regen and 25000 soft cap for Magicka and Stamina. Right now there is a cap for defense but no cap for offense.

I would then start using drinks, drop atronach for apprentice, go with Warlock x3, Torug's Pact x2, Engine Guardian x2, Martial Knowledge x4.
Welcome in the world where I deal more damage at the expense defense and my enemies are weaker than before, grats.

I said that there is no cap for offense (spell damage, weapon damage). I just don't know what numbers will be fine. Probably 2000?

Off the top of my head, and purely for arguments sake:

Softcaps
Health 30k
Stam/Mag 25k
Spell/Weapon damage 3k
Stam/Mag regens 2k

Spell/Weapon damage 3k is too much.

I won't argue, cause it's mostly as a thought experiment I posted that, but seeing as 4k can be achieved do you figure half that would be more appropriate?

Answer above this quote... don't remember what softcap was in 1.5, 200 or something. With damage the problem is more that you can so easily achieve so much of it, just slot dualwield and you hit that cap already, and there are a lot of efficient sets especially for weapon damage.

Domander

ToRelax wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

BTW:

Bashev wrote: »

Add soft cap. Don't change them, not everyone is abusing them. Add 1500 soft cap for regen and 25000 soft cap for Magicka and Stamina. Right now there is a cap for defense but no cap for offense.

I would then start using drinks, drop atronach for apprentice, go with Warlock x3, Torug's Pact x2, Engine Guardian x2, Martial Knowledge x4.
Welcome in the world where I deal more damage at the expense defense and my enemies are weaker than before, grats.

I said that there is no cap for offense (spell damage, weapon damage). I just don't know what numbers will be fine. Probably 2000?

You would have to bring back softcaps in every stat that had one pre 1.6, and rather lower than it was 1.5, than higher (x10).

A change that would allow me to simply swap around my attributes with little to no effect in my actual performance, or just stay on my level of power, wouldn't really balance things out, right?

You mean something that would cause players to move toward balancing out their stats? lol

I don't really care if this gets done, I'm just saying some players no longer need resource management skills. Take advantage I guess

ToRelax

Domander wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

BTW:

Bashev wrote: »

Add soft cap. Don't change them, not everyone is abusing them. Add 1500 soft cap for regen and 25000 soft cap for Magicka and Stamina. Right now there is a cap for defense but no cap for offense.

I would then start using drinks, drop atronach for apprentice, go with Warlock x3, Torug's Pact x2, Engine Guardian x2, Martial Knowledge x4.
Welcome in the world where I deal more damage at the expense defense and my enemies are weaker than before, grats.

I said that there is no cap for offense (spell damage, weapon damage). I just don't know what numbers will be fine. Probably 2000?

You would have to bring back softcaps in every stat that had one pre 1.6, and rather lower than it was 1.5, than higher (x10).

A change that would allow me to simply swap around my attributes with little to no effect in my actual performance, or just stay on my level of power, wouldn't really balance things out, right?

You mean something that would cause players to move toward balancing out their stats? lol

Note that that's not a change I would propose - as I said, my own build is pretty balanced (besides the fact that I have 62 points in magicka... but seriously, much more balanced than most builds).
People have a to high total of "resources", here meaning what they can invest in regen, max stats, damage, crit, cost reduction, penetration, mitigation and lots and lots of perks like healing done or physical damage.
If you would actually simply put softcaps on all these available options, it will be like in 1.5 where people simply spend their resources to hit the for them important softcaps first, then went on to push some over the cap.
You need to reduce the effects of some things like CP bonuses and add diminishing returns (and I mean real ones, not the *** in the CS) on things like regen and max stats, meanwhile increase the health multiplicator again. I know that all these changes would affect PvE as well, but then, @ZOS, get your asses up and balance the dungeons/trials accordingly. Thank you.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Jitterbug wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

BTW:

Bashev wrote: »

Add soft cap. Don't change them, not everyone is abusing them. Add 1500 soft cap for regen and 25000 soft cap for Magicka and Stamina. Right now there is a cap for defense but no cap for offense.

I would then start using drinks, drop atronach for apprentice, go with Warlock x3, Torug's Pact x2, Engine Guardian x2, Martial Knowledge x4.
Welcome in the world where I deal more damage at the expense defense and my enemies are weaker than before, grats.

I said that there is no cap for offense (spell damage, weapon damage). I just don't know what numbers will be fine. Probably 2000?

Off the top of my head, and purely for arguments sake:

Softcaps
Health 30k
Stam/Mag 25k
Spell/Weapon damage 3k
Stam/Mag regens 2k

Why should I have to lose over a 1000 points Weapon damage? I only have 1800~ stamina regen I give up a lot for that that's the point of the Champion System play your way problem is people have way to much burst or regen but that what we all wanted remember

Honesty as I would be well over Damage cap and near regen cap I would ignore by x% with Physical damage so would a lot of people we will all be doing the same things just like 1.5 the thing people wanted and got removed well this is freedom

Jitterbug

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Jitterbug wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

BTW:

Bashev wrote: »

Add soft cap. Don't change them, not everyone is abusing them. Add 1500 soft cap for regen and 25000 soft cap for Magicka and Stamina. Right now there is a cap for defense but no cap for offense.

I would then start using drinks, drop atronach for apprentice, go with Warlock x3, Torug's Pact x2, Engine Guardian x2, Martial Knowledge x4.
Welcome in the world where I deal more damage at the expense defense and my enemies are weaker than before, grats.

I said that there is no cap for offense (spell damage, weapon damage). I just don't know what numbers will be fine. Probably 2000?

Off the top of my head, and purely for arguments sake:

Softcaps
Health 30k
Stam/Mag 25k
Spell/Weapon damage 3k
Stam/Mag regens 2k

Why should I have to lose over a 1000 points Weapon damage? I only have 1800~ stamina regen I give up a lot for that that's the point of the Champion System play your way problem is people have way to much burst or regen but that what we all wanted remember

Honesty as I would be well over Damage cap and near regen cap I would ignore by x% with Physical damage so would a lot of people we will all be doing the same things just like 1.5 the thing people wanted and got removed well this is freedom

Breathe....

I'm not saying you should. Just put some numbers up there to see what people thought of them and how it theoretically could work out were the soft caps to be reintroduced.

Bashev

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Jitterbug wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

BTW:

Bashev wrote: »

Add soft cap. Don't change them, not everyone is abusing them. Add 1500 soft cap for regen and 25000 soft cap for Magicka and Stamina. Right now there is a cap for defense but no cap for offense.

I would then start using drinks, drop atronach for apprentice, go with Warlock x3, Torug's Pact x2, Engine Guardian x2, Martial Knowledge x4.
Welcome in the world where I deal more damage at the expense defense and my enemies are weaker than before, grats.

I said that there is no cap for offense (spell damage, weapon damage). I just don't know what numbers will be fine. Probably 2000?

Off the top of my head, and purely for arguments sake:

Softcaps
Health 30k
Stam/Mag 25k
Spell/Weapon damage 3k
Stam/Mag regens 2k

Why should I have to lose over a 1000 points Weapon damage? I only have 1800~ stamina regen I give up a lot for that that's the point of the Champion System play your way problem is people have way to much burst or regen but that what we all wanted remember

Honesty as I would be well over Damage cap and near regen cap I would ignore by x% with Physical damage so would a lot of people we will all be doing the same things just like 1.5 the thing people wanted and got removed well this is freedom

It is not a freedom. It is more like tyranny. You can stack weapon damage as much as you want but I cannot stack armor as much as I want. You can stack crit I can not counter the cirt hits anymore and so on....

ToRelax

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Jitterbug wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

BTW:

Bashev wrote: »

Add soft cap. Don't change them, not everyone is abusing them. Add 1500 soft cap for regen and 25000 soft cap for Magicka and Stamina. Right now there is a cap for defense but no cap for offense.

I would then start using drinks, drop atronach for apprentice, go with Warlock x3, Torug's Pact x2, Engine Guardian x2, Martial Knowledge x4.
Welcome in the world where I deal more damage at the expense defense and my enemies are weaker than before, grats.

I said that there is no cap for offense (spell damage, weapon damage). I just don't know what numbers will be fine. Probably 2000?

Off the top of my head, and purely for arguments sake:

Softcaps
Health 30k
Stam/Mag 25k
Spell/Weapon damage 3k
Stam/Mag regens 2k

Why should I have to lose over a 1000 points Weapon damage? I only have 1800~ stamina regen I give up a lot for that that's the point of the Champion System play your way problem is people have way to much burst or regen but that what we all wanted remember

Honesty as I would be well over Damage cap and near regen cap I would ignore by x% with Physical damage so would a lot of people we will all be doing the same things just like 1.5 the thing people wanted and got removed well this is freedom

Do you understand how rediculous high those stats are? in 1.5, the cap for stam regen was on like 135, you have now a LOT more than that x10, and over 4000 weapon damage on TOP of that. That should not even be remotely possible.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

What yes you can buff your armor for light, medium and Heavy starting at 1% just like the damage buff. So don't say you can't stack armor, do say you don't want to cause you feel that light armor rating buff makes little sense. All be it true if I keep buffing my Physical damage and you never buff your armor rating then the gap will just get bigger and bigger if you buff you armor by 10% and I buff my damage by 10% nothing will change but no you are buffs shields and other stuff and some of us go for power it's freedom to choose we made the choice for raw power you chose not a match with more armor

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

@ToRelax but I'm an Assassin power is what I need it's what I go for and it's really all I got power and regen 21k health and just 18k stamina I lose a lot to get that I choose that path and I have to walk it

OdinForge

If you think players running regen don't have to resource manage, you're very mistaken.

ToRelax

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

@ToRelax but I'm an Assassin power is what I need it's what I go for and it's really all I got power and regen 21k health and just 18k stamina I lose a lot to get that I choose that path and I have to walk it

If you have 1.8k regen, weapon damage is NOT all you got. Just stop trying to justify your stats, that way balance won't be achievable. I freely admit that my stats are way, way to high and my skills far to efficient. If this games should ever be balanced, and not as a shooter, then every build will have to loose attributes.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

@Jitterbug but what you are saying is that if you put 200 points weapon damage and you pass the cap at 100 then you should only get half of the rest just 50 out of 100 you have to add more to get lose to force players to spread points around is 1.5 with higher caps if I cripple myself to play one very specific way why can't I hate sorcs with 38k Magic but they do lose a lot to get it their should always be a trade off hold people back with caps like that is just wrong.

Petros

You do realize, the OP is bored and made this thread for conversation and arguments as he/she sits back in their chair and smiles

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

@ToRelax my gear is pure power and my CP and green drink is for pure regen not seeing a problem what that it's what the system was made for in a year people will have a crazy high enough of cp and the numbers will still be too high somewhere the problem is so long as the CS is ingame play will go fully into what they want or have capped damage, regen, stat in what ever they use meaning once again right back to 1.5 most players have nearly the same stats

now powers should be balanced but that's about it

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

All nerfs start somewhere

ToRelax

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

@ToRelax my gear is pure power and my CP and green drink is for pure regen not seeing a problem what that it's what the system was made for in a year people will have a crazy high enough of cp and the numbers will still be too high somewhere the problem is so long as the CS is ingame play will go fully into what they want or have capped damage, regen, stat in what ever they use meaning once again right back to 1.5 most players have nearly the same stats

now powers should be balanced but that's about it

If you change something, good players will adjust and change their resource distribution accordingly.
You lower the damage, add more hp? I focuse more on sustain.
You lower my passive mitigation? I spec into active mitigation.
You lower my cost reduction? I go for regen.
You nerf skill X and I use Y instead.

Fighting symptoms is never going to lead to a solution.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

That's what I saying and we will all end up with that same number like in 1.5 we are in agreement but we are somehow still arguing about this

Oughash

Bashev wrote: »

It is not a freedom. It is more like tyranny. You can stack weapon damage as much as you want but I cannot stack armor as much as I want. You can stack crit I can not counter the cirt hits anymore and so on....

Exactly.

Softcaps would not be needed if the Champion System had a balanced set of offensive and defensive bonus for both magic and physical damage AND if item sets offered the ability to stack defense according to offensive potential. Neither case is true. Additionally, the ratio of player health to damage potential has dramatically swung. Thus some have proposed the reintroduction of softcaps.

Jitterbug wrote: »

Off the top of my head, and purely for arguments sake:

Softcaps
Health 30k
Stam/Mag 25k
Spell/Weapon damage 3k
Stam/Mag regens 2k

This actually isn't too far from what I'd suggest. First, I think the hp:stam:mag ration should be changed back to 1.5:1:1. Then

Softcaps
Health 45k
Stam/Mag 30k
Spell/Weapon damage 2k
HP/Stam/Mag regens 1.5k

maryriv

Bashev wrote: »

Add soft cap. Don't change them, not everyone is abusing them. Add 1500 soft cap for regen and 25000 soft cap for Magicka and Stamina. Right now there is a cap for defense but no cap for offense.

How exactly are people "abusing' regen?

Bashev

maryriv wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Add soft cap. Don't change them, not everyone is abusing them. Add 1500 soft cap for regen and 25000 soft cap for Magicka and Stamina. Right now there is a cap for defense but no cap for offense.

How exactly are people "abusing' regen?

Do you think that 3k stamina or magicka regen is normal? And this is not the maximum. The maximum is probably 4k+. Anyway with nice builds you need 2k magicka or stamina regen. This is every 2 seconds.

OdinForge

Bashev wrote: »

maryriv wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Add soft cap. Don't change them, not everyone is abusing them. Add 1500 soft cap for regen and 25000 soft cap for Magicka and Stamina. Right now there is a cap for defense but no cap for offense.

How exactly are people "abusing' regen?

Do you think that 3k stamina or magicka regen is normal? And this is not the maximum. The maximum is probably 4k+. Anyway with nice builds you need 2k magicka or stamina regen. This is every 2 seconds.

Where are you getting 3K or 4K from?

Bashev

OdinForge wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

maryriv wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Add soft cap. Don't change them, not everyone is abusing them. Add 1500 soft cap for regen and 25000 soft cap for Magicka and Stamina. Right now there is a cap for defense but no cap for offense.

How exactly are people "abusing' regen?

Do you think that 3k stamina or magicka regen is normal? And this is not the maximum. The maximum is probably 4k+. Anyway with nice builds you need 2k magicka or stamina regen. This is every 2 seconds.

Where are you getting 3K or 4K from?

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/167769/how-much-regen-does-teargrants-need/p1

Soulac

I have 2.9k stam reg (full buffed), running 7/7 medium and I can run out of stamina using animation cancel.
Either light attack > skill > bash or light attack > skill > dodge
For this amount of stamina recovery I drop a hell lot of weapondamage and probably good 5pc bonis, but this fits my playstyle.

You reverse the removal of softcaps and you will see people with same builds and same stats all over the place as it was before.
Without soft cap you can freely push the stat you want and ofc some people will get huge dmg or huge defense, but overall everything is counterable and nothing unbeatable.
What you want is a build working against everything as it was in 1.5.
I don't want that, I want to play as I want and not as the soft caps want me to.