PvP Class Balance Analysis as of 2.0.7

Snit

Here's why I think TESO PvP is reasonably, though not perfectly balanced:

- In one vs one or very small groups, I sometimes win easily and I sometimes get destroyed. The opponent's class is not the primary factor. Skill and initiative (who started in stealth) are far more important. Gear probably is, too, but it's harder to recognize
- In large groups, our leaders look for a mix of all classes for a variety of legitimate reasons. If Templars are underpowered one vs one, they're indispensable in 12 vs 12, or 24 vs many

I also note that changing my own build presents radical tradeoffs in situation-specific effectiveness. I can make myself pretty reasonable in solo fights, but useless in groups, or vice versa. I can also switch up how suited I am to fight specific classes.

Snit

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

The classes are balanced but everyone thinks the other guy is OP because it's literally just war of the glass canons out there

Not everyone. The popular streamers of all classes tend to be sustain builds. Their damage is lower, as they're not built solely around spell- or weapon-power, but they survive with active defenses (shields, heals, cc, dodge rolls), then wear down and defeat larger numbers. They're winning with resource generation, not burst.

Sustain builds are pretty awesome when solo or duo against crowds of glassy sorts

Xsorus

ToRelax wrote: »

coolermh wrote: »

Sorry but I would put sorcs at defense 4.5. They are one of the hardest classes to kill. I know this because everyone tries to dump "kill sorcs" and get another kill quest.

"Defense" does not mean how hard it is to kill an actual player here. There are things like "Mobility" and "CC/zoning" listed for a reason.

I can show you a video of my nightblade wailing on a VR4 Sorc for probably 15 seconds with Surprise Attack before I kill him, all because he was spamming shields.

This is with fearing mind you as well....

ToRelax

Xsorus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

coolermh wrote: »

Sorry but I would put sorcs at defense 4.5. They are one of the hardest classes to kill. I know this because everyone tries to dump "kill sorcs" and get another kill quest.

"Defense" does not mean how hard it is to kill an actual player here. There are things like "Mobility" and "CC/zoning" listed for a reason.

I can show you a video of my nightblade wailing on a VR4 Sorc for probably 15 seconds with Surprise Attack before I kill him, all because he was spamming shields.

This is with fearing mind you as well....

Yes, raw damage by a single person. 2 players attacking the sorc and the shield won't save him, or cc when the shield is nearly or completely down can kill him.
It's not going to tank like you can do with one hand/shield and blocking.

Xsorus

ToRelax wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

coolermh wrote: »

Sorry but I would put sorcs at defense 4.5. They are one of the hardest classes to kill. I know this because everyone tries to dump "kill sorcs" and get another kill quest.

"Defense" does not mean how hard it is to kill an actual player here. There are things like "Mobility" and "CC/zoning" listed for a reason.

I can show you a video of my nightblade wailing on a VR4 Sorc for probably 15 seconds with Surprise Attack before I kill him, all because he was spamming shields.

This is with fearing mind you as well....

Yes, raw damage by a single person. 2 players attacking the sorc and the shield won't save him, or cc when the shield is nearly or completely down can kill him.
It's not going to tank like you can do with one hand/shield and blocking.

So you think I should have 2 players to bring down a VR4 sorc spamming shields?

Also did you just try and compare a VR4 sorc spamming shields to a tank with 1hd/shield and blocking? Do you not see that should not be a comparison in the first place? You should not be tanking like a Tank on a Light armor Caster..

Bouvin

My biggest complaint right now about "balance" is not seeing effects.

A lot of time Radiant Destruction just isn't showing the effect. Same thing is happening with Caltrops.

ToRelax

Xsorus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

coolermh wrote: »

Sorry but I would put sorcs at defense 4.5. They are one of the hardest classes to kill. I know this because everyone tries to dump "kill sorcs" and get another kill quest.

"Defense" does not mean how hard it is to kill an actual player here. There are things like "Mobility" and "CC/zoning" listed for a reason.

I can show you a video of my nightblade wailing on a VR4 Sorc for probably 15 seconds with Surprise Attack before I kill him, all because he was spamming shields.

This is with fearing mind you as well....

Yes, raw damage by a single person. 2 players attacking the sorc and the shield won't save him, or cc when the shield is nearly or completely down can kill him.
It's not going to tank like you can do with one hand/shield and blocking.

So you think I should have 2 players to bring down a VR4 sorc spamming shields?

Also did you just try and compare a VR4 sorc spamming shields to a tank with 1hd/shield and blocking? Do you not see that should not be a comparison in the first place? You should not be tanking like a Tank on a Light armor Caster..

No, I don't think you should be able to need 2 guys to kill one - you should be able to run him out of resources.
Sadly, that won't work against a good player right now.

No, you should not be able to tank with just light armor and shields like a blocking tank with one hand/shield.
Luckily, you can't right now.

Derthar

Yes, raw damage by a single person. 2 players attacking the sorc and the shield won't save him, or cc when the shield is nearly or completely down can kill him.
It's not going to tank like you can do with one hand/shield and blocking.

So you think I should have 2 players to bring down a VR4 sorc spamming shields?

Also did you just try and compare a VR4 sorc spamming shields to a tank with 1hd/shield and blocking? Do you not see that should not be a comparison in the first place? You should not be tanking like a Tank on a Light armor Caster..

So you think you should be able to kill any light armor user in less than 10s just spamming one skill? Just time right fear + ulticombo and he is instantly dead. As a sorc i have a very hard time against good stamina NBs, and thats the way it should be. I mostly lose because i dont have reliable CC to hit them. Streak would help but.. you know bol.

Soris

A very good unbiased and objective write up. Agree with most of the things.

As a templar i'd like to say templars may need slight damage increase(though not necessary imo) but they certainly need more tanking capabilities apart form raw healing skills. The first things come into my mind are old Aura and old Blazing Shield(shield value wise). Or something else that puts us in the position we were pre 1.6.

david.haypreub18_ESO

Soris wrote: »

A very good unbiased and objective write up. Agree with most of the things.

As a templar i'd like to say templars may need slight damage increase(though not necessary imo) but they certainly need more tanking capabilities apart form raw healing skills. The first things come into my mind are old Aura and old Blazing Shield(shield value wise). Or something else that puts us in the position we were pre 1.6.

Without any AoE CC we are still going to be playing second fiddle to DKs in the tank department. Sadly, Radiant Destruction was given to us at the cost of our only AoE CC.

This was why the recent attempts to rebalance the Templars failed. Much was given, but much was taken away at the same time, and the bugs weren't fixed.

Make Biting Jabs a root or snare, and we might rival the DKs for tankiness. At least we won't be handing out CC immunity like candy.

Folkb

One of the first fixes they should do is to remove damage scaling of abilities with stamina or majicka. After that they can better balance skill dmg numbers.

ArvenAldmeri

NoRefunds wrote: »

lol sorcs have no healing? did you ever try to kill a sorc spamming shields? well in 1vs1 its impossible, only full tanks have that kind of survability but they deal 0 dmg, while sorcs can burst you in 1 sec with the right cobination of skills, sorcs should have 5 in defense and healing...also dk has very good cc with fossilize-talons- whip-leap combos, it should have a 5 in cc

Do you realize what bulls*it you are saying right?

Soris

ArvenAldmeri wrote: »

NoRefunds wrote: »

lol sorcs have no healing? did you ever try to kill a sorc spamming shields? well in 1vs1 its impossible, only full tanks have that kind of survability but they deal 0 dmg, while sorcs can burst you in 1 sec with the right cobination of skills, sorcs should have 5 in defense and healing...also dk has very good cc with fossilize-talons- whip-leap combos, it should have a 5 in cc

Do you realize what bulls*it you are saying right?

What he said is kinda true tbh for 1v1 situations

Erock25

Soris wrote: »

ArvenAldmeri wrote: »

NoRefunds wrote: »

lol sorcs have no healing? did you ever try to kill a sorc spamming shields? well in 1vs1 its impossible, only full tanks have that kind of survability but they deal 0 dmg, while sorcs can burst you in 1 sec with the right cobination of skills, sorcs should have 5 in defense and healing...also dk has very good cc with fossilize-talons- whip-leap combos, it should have a 5 in cc

Do you realize what bulls*it you are saying right?

What he said is kinda true tbh for 1v1 situations

And there are Templar, NB, and DK builds that you can't kill 1vs1 either. Game isn't about 1vs1 and good thing for non-Sorcs is that there defenses scale better against multiple opponents.

Cinbri

Soris wrote: »

ArvenAldmeri wrote: »

NoRefunds wrote: »

lol sorcs have no healing? did you ever try to kill a sorc spamming shields? well in 1vs1 its impossible, only full tanks have that kind of survability but they deal 0 dmg, while sorcs can burst you in 1 sec with the right cobination of skills, sorcs should have 5 in defense and healing...also dk has very good cc with fossilize-talons- whip-leap combos, it should have a 5 in cc

Do you realize what bulls*it you are saying right?

What he said is kinda true tbh for 1v1 situations

Not many people ever tried to duel with sorc, most prefer zerg overrun.

Derra

Xsorus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

coolermh wrote: »

Sorry but I would put sorcs at defense 4.5. They are one of the hardest classes to kill. I know this because everyone tries to dump "kill sorcs" and get another kill quest.

"Defense" does not mean how hard it is to kill an actual player here. There are things like "Mobility" and "CC/zoning" listed for a reason.

I can show you a video of my nightblade wailing on a VR4 Sorc for probably 15 seconds with Surprise Attack before I kill him, all because he was spamming shields.

This is with fearing mind you as well....

Yes, raw damage by a single person. 2 players attacking the sorc and the shield won't save him, or cc when the shield is nearly or completely down can kill him.
It's not going to tank like you can do with one hand/shield and blocking.

So you think I should have 2 players to bring down a VR4 sorc spamming shields?

Also did you just try and compare a VR4 sorc spamming shields to a tank with 1hd/shield and blocking? Do you not see that should not be a comparison in the first place? You should not be tanking like a Tank on a Light armor Caster..

Thats the problem with shields. You can´t balance them for 1v1 because they have to remain somewhat vaible in grp situations.When the sorc is trying to kill you too you´re going to get opportunity windows for the kill.
If a player of any class decides to go full defense mode you´re going to have a hard time killing them (should you be able at all). Thats not a sorc specific.

Xsorus

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

coolermh wrote: »

Sorry but I would put sorcs at defense 4.5. They are one of the hardest classes to kill. I know this because everyone tries to dump "kill sorcs" and get another kill quest.

"Defense" does not mean how hard it is to kill an actual player here. There are things like "Mobility" and "CC/zoning" listed for a reason.

I can show you a video of my nightblade wailing on a VR4 Sorc for probably 15 seconds with Surprise Attack before I kill him, all because he was spamming shields.

This is with fearing mind you as well....

Yes, raw damage by a single person. 2 players attacking the sorc and the shield won't save him, or cc when the shield is nearly or completely down can kill him.
It's not going to tank like you can do with one hand/shield and blocking.

So you think I should have 2 players to bring down a VR4 sorc spamming shields?

Also did you just try and compare a VR4 sorc spamming shields to a tank with 1hd/shield and blocking? Do you not see that should not be a comparison in the first place? You should not be tanking like a Tank on a Light armor Caster..

Thats the problem with shields. You can´t balance them for 1v1 because they have to remain somewhat vaible in grp situations.When the sorc is trying to kill you too you´re going to get opportunity windows for the kill.
If a player of any class decides to go full defense mode you´re going to have a hard time killing them (should you be able at all). Thats not a sorc specific.

I'd personally like Dots go through them, That way they remain viable against Burst, but give the Sorc or whatever time to heal through the dots..

This would also make Dot Builds better while giving it a niche.

Then ya can go through and maybe convert other shields to Stamina or Magicka Based since a viable counter now exists.

Soris

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

coolermh wrote: »

Sorry but I would put sorcs at defense 4.5. They are one of the hardest classes to kill. I know this because everyone tries to dump "kill sorcs" and get another kill quest.

"Defense" does not mean how hard it is to kill an actual player here. There are things like "Mobility" and "CC/zoning" listed for a reason.

I can show you a video of my nightblade wailing on a VR4 Sorc for probably 15 seconds with Surprise Attack before I kill him, all because he was spamming shields.

This is with fearing mind you as well....

Yes, raw damage by a single person. 2 players attacking the sorc and the shield won't save him, or cc when the shield is nearly or completely down can kill him.
It's not going to tank like you can do with one hand/shield and blocking.

So you think I should have 2 players to bring down a VR4 sorc spamming shields?

Also did you just try and compare a VR4 sorc spamming shields to a tank with 1hd/shield and blocking? Do you not see that should not be a comparison in the first place? You should not be tanking like a Tank on a Light armor Caster..

Thats the problem with shields. You can´t balance them for 1v1 because they have to remain somewhat vaible in grp situations.When the sorc is trying to kill you too you´re going to get opportunity windows for the kill.
If a player of any class decides to go full defense mode you´re going to have a hard time killing them (should you be able at all). Thats not a sorc specific.

True. Every other class do that in some degree. But especially non dodgeroll based templar and dk builds have to trade his damaging capabilities for defence.(and for the sake of logic this way is what it should be.) That's not the case for sorcerers and barrel rollers. Problem is here imo.

Erock25 wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

ArvenAldmeri wrote: »

NoRefunds wrote: »

lol sorcs have no healing? did you ever try to kill a sorc spamming shields? well in 1vs1 its impossible, only full tanks have that kind of survability but they deal 0 dmg, while sorcs can burst you in 1 sec with the right cobination of skills, sorcs should have 5 in defense and healing...also dk has very good cc with fossilize-talons- whip-leap combos, it should have a 5 in cc

Do you realize what bulls*it you are saying right?

What he said is kinda true tbh for 1v1 situations

And there are Templar, NB, and DK builds that you can't kill 1vs1 either. Game isn't about 1vs1 and good thing for non-Sorcs is that there defenses scale better against multiple opponents.

Same applies here.

Derra wrote: »

When the sorc is trying to kill you too you´re going to get opportunity windows for the kill.

This part, while it sounds ok, it isn't effective as it sounds. Shield duration is 20 seconds if I recall corettly.

akray21

Great post. I am going to say that I do just fine as a NB healer for my group. I tend to keep my group alive in tight situations in vet dungeons. On the other hand, I have a very hard time in PvP being a magicka based NB.

Trayyacakes

Xsorus wrote: »

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

The classes are balanced but everyone thinks the other guy is OP because it's literally just war of the glass canons out there. It's rare to see someone above 20k HP and when people are hitting for 5 digit numbers with non-ultimate attacks battles don't typically last that long unless you're spamming dodges and shields.

I don't really know what the fix is for this. Sometimes things feel like they live forever (damage log not even registering anything because you hit a shield larger than the targets healthpool) and sometimes it's over in a second because you got hard CC'd and couldn't break out and it's not just fear that does this sometimes.

I think in pvp some class abilities just need cooldowns. Spamming things over and over until it lands isn't skillful or fun. At least that way with the inevitable stat inflation from CP there is a limit to what anyone can do.

You are right about the damage being high

Right now on my Nightblade, if you're under 25k with not shields (and if you're a vampire esp) I can instant kill you....

and i mean that..flat out instant death with zero time to respond.

This. Wearing 5 pieces of heavy armor I have seen death recaps from nightblades where I get hit 3 times. Hell I had a death recap the other day with only 2 hits on it. Granted I don't have a lot of hp on my character, I have just over 20k in Cyrodiil, because I would like to be able to kill things when I am solo, but that doesn't change the fact that burst damage is out of control. Sometimes fear doesn't want to break too which sucks.

I believe two things in this game need to be nerfed before class balance can truly be discussed: burst damage and shield stacking. You can't nerf one without the other because that would make the one that doesn't get nerfed even more OP.

I wish they would have a pts open for a month with character transfers with these changes:
1. take the damage shield off of healing ward. Make it a strong burst heal. It could be the breath of life for resto staff.
2. change annulment, to a shield that only lasts 4 seconds still only absorbs magicka attacks, but gives a speed boost because light armor Templars and DKs shouldn't have to go vampire to receive an escape. The morphs can both do the secondary effects they already provide, but still only last 4 seconds and grant major expedition.
3. Put Diminishing returns, NOT A SOFT CAP, on all stats. I don't think a DR curve needs to be added to pool size just the amount to which the pool size adds to damage. This would take a lot of tweaking to get the curve right, but if it is done correctly you could see the return of hybrids, burst would be at a respectable level (but not OP), and infinity resource builds would be gone. Not to mention more stats would be desirable in PVE instead of just going all weapon/spell power.
4. Increase Dot damage, let all dots damage damage shields, and if there are some dots that still don't get applied through block they should. Dots should be an effective way to deal damage to tank builds and to constantly eat away at damage shields. This probable should only apply to single target dot abilities like searing strike, cripple, sun fire, and entropy.

I just really would like to see what those changes would do to the game.

Sublime

First off, thanks everybody for your feedback it really means a lot to me.

ToRelax wrote: »

Put Templar on level 1 on CC/zoning. They have a huge issue here, they lack some reliable hard cc as well as any root and some skills like puncturing sweeps or eclipse give cc immunity without ever really stunning the opponent.

I only rarely play Templar myself, but I heard others saying that Blazing Spear CC can be really nice.

ToRelax wrote: »

Set NB/Sorc on 3/2 for healing/support, because their elusive playstyle allows them to position themselves right without dieing much more reliably than a templar. Also, Ball of Lightning can absorb projectiles for other group members.

Aren't the benefits from the elusiveness (more glassy build -> stronger heals) already covered by the mobility category? And thanks for mentioning BOL I forgot about that.

Sorcerer [Healing/Support]: 1 -> 2

ToRelax wrote: »

Resource management is hard. Simply because NBs and DKs excel in different situations. The more enemies, the more the NB gets upper hand over the DK imo if you build it for it. I wouldn't change the numbers though.

edit:

nvm, i think i would change that actually, making it for resource management:

NB 5, Sorc 3, Templar 1, DK 4

- I don't get why the NB gets the upper hand the more enemies are present, can you elaborate on that?
- I'm not sure about the Sorc, yes their base Resource Management (Magicka/Stamina) is quite bad, but I still think Power Stone is really strong.
- I agree on the suggestion regarding Templars

Templar [Ressource Management]: 2 -> 1

ToRelax wrote: »

set Templar burst on 2 and DK on 3. Templar's damage skills don't work really well together to create bursts, even though things like Dark Flare (heal debuff + empower + decent damage) are great. No good combinations.
DK however can create heavy bursts with Molten Armaments.

Good point, especially since the Templar's Backlash usually requires additional damage from allies to be effective, while the DK's Molten Armament is pretty strong itself.

Templar [Burst]: 3 -> 2
Dragonknight [Burst]: 2 -> 3

Derra wrote: »

The only thing i do not agree with is NB (stamina specifically) burst being worse than sorcs. Why is that - because ALL sorc burst dmg is blockable with no ability to break block except for using a 1.5s hardcast. NBs ambush => fear => soulharvest => suprise attack is far more dangerous (for a player with situational awareness) than timed curse and fragments IMHO.

If "using a 1.5s hardcast" is referring to Streak nvm.

Doesn't Streak go through block? I know it's pretty hard to apply, especially since the stun is only 1.5s, but it would at least open up a window. Apart from that it would require to get really close to the opponent which doesn't fit the playstyle of the rest of the combo, whereas fear is perfectly fits the NB's combo. The NB combo mentioned might be more dangerous, but that is as I see it mostly because of fear and fear belongs to the CC category. I however reducedd the Sorcerers CC/Zoning category to 5 because their block breaker doesn't fit their playstyle. (more on that later)

However, I have to say that I never played a V14 NB and therefore cannot judge it to 100% accuracy. The reason I don't put them above the SR's is that while Death Stroke does give them quite a damage burst, they don't have the option to stack less skills on top of each other than the Sorcerer. The best I've seen so far is Camflouaged Hunter+Snipe+Ambush+Incapacitating Strike but if you put that against Inevitable Detonation+Velocious Curse+Entropy+Ice Cometh+Crystal Fragments proc+Mage's Wrath, I'd say the Sorcerer one comes out on top because it has a skill more and one more Empower buff.

On the other side SR's don't have access to Minor Berserk, which certainly is a big argument in favour of the NB, they however have to attack from the back to get the full benefit. In the end I'm still the opinion that it is really close.

Zargorius wrote: »

Just a couple of things:

- Healing Ritual is not stationary, you can still move although slower
- On the resources management, I thin you forgot about the Rune Focus morph Channeled Focus that restores Magicka (although that one requires you to stay within the focus area)

- Yes you can move but the slow is so strong that it prevents most people from using it.
- Thanks for pointing out added it to OP.

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

The classes are balanced, perhaps more so than they should be for a mmo. A mmo isnt supposed to be about balance, its supposed to be combining your skills in a group effort to overcome the odds, however pvp leets will forever attempt to undermine this, and in the end we are left with a game that is a shell of its former self.

I agree that in MMO's the group gameplay should have a much higher focus than in other games. However, I still think that balance is a very important aspect of any game. It might not be about balance in 1v1 fights but there shouldn't be a skill, class, combo, tactic or strategy that strongly outperforms its contenders. Of course there should be differences between them but overall they should have the same streangth, or another way to make up for their deficits. Balancing is not only about skills and perks, it is about the whole game, all of its mechanics and how different things interact with each other.

NoRefunds wrote: »

lol sorcs have no healing? did you ever try to kill a sorc spamming shields? well in 1vs1 its impossible, only full tanks have that kind of survability but they deal 0 dmg, while sorcs can burst you in 1 sec with the right cobination of skills, sorcs should have 5 in defense and healing...

Healing is about restoring HP not about preventing damage. Sorcerers might have the ability to take quite a bit of damage thanks to their Shield, but they lack the Stamina to successfully tank for a extended period of time

NoRefunds wrote: »

also dk has very good cc with fossilize-talons- whip-leap combos, it should have a 5 in cc

The stun from fossilize is pretty long, but since it break upon damage, it's only useful to buy time. Talons is only soft CC that can be useful to keep your enemy in place, but it doesn't give you time to deal damage and Leap is as ultimate too rarely available to count it as reliable CC. In the end the DK lacks the long stun that buys him the time required to kill an enemy.

Erock25 wrote: »

Personally I think Sorc's 5 in burst DPS and 5 in CC/Zoning are too high. As someone else pointed out, a combination of block and dodge wreck our burst. Inevitable Detonation isn't a Sorc skill and the proliferation of max or way past max spell resist people in PVP is very high right now. We're good burst, but not a 5.

I agree that block or spell resistance wreck a SR's burst, but this is also true for any other class, yes a NB has fear to break block but that belongs to the CC category.

While Inevitable Detonation isn't a Sorcerer skill, the class benefits more from it in a way that is not avaialbe to other classes, which is why I mentioned it. (The same holds true for the NB Cloak+Inevitable Detonation combo).

Erock25 wrote: »

As for CC/zoning, you said it yourself that most Sorc skills are just giving free CC immunity. Encase is clunky as hell. Seriously it is one of the most annoying spells to use in PVP. Daedric Minefield alone does not = a 5 compared to what other classes have, IMO.

I agree that a 5 is too high, especially since Streak, the only tool to break block, is somewhat melee and totally misfits the Sorcerer's kit. However, I still think that Daedric Minefield is really strong, which is why I'll change it to a 4 instead of a 3.

Sorcerer [Crowd Control/Zoning]: 5 -> 4

Lava_Croft wrote: »

A very nice write up, thank you! Now I expect one that recognizes the two different 'schools' in this game: Magicka and Stamina.

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

also i know its a long write up but it really needs to be divided between magicka and stamina specs for dps as well, there are some major imbalances for just that between the classes.

I really like that idea, and it would supplement this post really nicely, so I think I'm gonna do that next.

technohic wrote: »

@Sublime Good post and I find a lot spot on about templars. I think one thing you mentioned as a weakness that does not get much credit is the resource management tools. Makes it harder to focus on adding damage when you need to focus a little harder on making sure you can keep some resources up.

I agree concerning the Templar Ressource Management, especially since Repentance is so unreliable.

technohic wrote: »

Honestly; in a full picture, I am not sure how to balance Templars out with their healing abilities. Adding more resource management lets them have stronger heals and for longer. Adding an escape along with the heals could be problematic. More practical instant burst and making the shield more effective again might be OK; but the shield then leads again to questions of the good healing to go with it.

Completely agree here, I however like the support focus of the class so I'd rather give their healing some love instead of boosting their offensive (Biting Jabs' damage is quite ok imo).

An idea I had is, give templars a passive, that whenevery they heal somebody that is at 100% HP you grant them a shield for 40% of the excessively heald HP (shield bonus is reduced by 50% on AOE heals) up to a total of 6k (the maximum shield streangth increases with you highest stat combination, i.e. either Magicka+Spell Power or Stamina+Weapon Power), for a glass cannon build. A tanky build would probably have a total shield of about 2-3k. This shield would hold for 10s.

technohic wrote: »

I'm actually afraid the way the game works just is more a part of the problem than any one class.

That's something I've started to realize as well, some skills are just rediculously hard to balance not using cooldowns without breaking their purpose. (Looking at Bolt Escape/Scales/Cloak, I know some of them are in an OK state atm, but I'm pretty sure that it wasn't that easy to balane them.)

FireCowCommando wrote: »

The summed totals:
NB - 29
Sorc - 24
Templar - 21
DK - 24

Now with the changes:
NB - 29
SR - 24
TP - 19
DK - 25

ToRelax

Sublime wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Resource management is hard. Simply because NBs and DKs excel in different situations. The more enemies, the more the NB gets upper hand over the DK imo if you build it for it. I wouldn't change the numbers though.

edit:

nvm, i think i would change that actually, making it for resource management:

NB 5, Sorc 3, Templar 1, DK 4

- I don't get why the NB gets the upper hand the more enemies are present, can you elaborate on that?
- I'm not sure about the Sorc, yes their base Resource Management (Magicka/Stamina) is quite bad, but I still think Power Stone is really strong.
- I agree on the suggestion regarding Templars

Templar [Ressource Management]: 2 -> 1

The changes to Sorc and Templar were actually meant to keep the gape to NB/DK - I wouldn't give Templar 1 without that change as they have Channeled Focus and Repentence.

However, the highest regen you can get right now is with AoE + Siphoning Attacks, especially Caltrops, that's why. If you build for tanking - Sap Tank - or even a Steel Tornado spammer, you get more resources the more players stand in your AoE. Basically, all classes got their abilities to manage resources inmidst an enemy zerg nerfed with 1.6, but NBs can do with Caltrops and the new Soul Tether just fine instead.

Sublime

ToRelax wrote: »

The changes to Sorc and Templar were actually meant to keep the gape to NB/DK - I wouldn't give Templar 1 without that change as they have Channeled Focus and Repentence.

However, the highest regen you can get right now is with AoE + Siphoning Attacks, especially Caltrops, that's why. If you build for tanking - Sap Tank - or even a Steel Tornado spammer, you get more resources the more players stand in your AoE. Basically, all classes got their abilities to manage resources inmidst an enemy zerg nerfed with 1.6, but NBs can do with Caltrops and the new Soul Tether just fine instead.

Now I see what you meant with the enemy scaling ressource regeneration.

The reason I gave Templars a 1 is because Channeled Focus Returns very few ressources (I think it's actually weaker than Restoring Aura) and even though Repentance is awesome if you manage to kill somebody until you do the 10% bonus just doesn't cut it, meaning you're basically stuck with nothing until you get a kill.

Concerning the changes to DK I'm not sure, because i still think Battle Roar can be very strong and the percent Max Stamina Bonus of Helping Hands synergizes really nicely with a Dragonknights tanky nature. However, I also see that the Regeneration provided by the SA+AOE combo can be insane and actually really boosts their tankiness.

Regarding Soul Thether, I thought they only added thethers to all targets in the AOE increasing the HP leech, but in what way does that affect Ressource Management?

Cody

detection pots are not shadow cloaks only counter.

magelight

AOE attacks

caltrops

piercing mark from other NBs

as well as others I am sure I have not listed.

I personally think that templars can tank a LITTLE better than DKs due to blazing shield... but the DK does have the ability that gives them a crap ton of armor, AND access to the best self heal in the game.

I only chase BEing sorcs if I am a DK with scales or If I have gap closers. If I am neither I let the sorc run. They are out of combat, that's good enough for me imo.

ToRelax

Sublime wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

The changes to Sorc and Templar were actually meant to keep the gape to NB/DK - I wouldn't give Templar 1 without that change as they have Channeled Focus and Repentence.

However, the highest regen you can get right now is with AoE + Siphoning Attacks, especially Caltrops, that's why. If you build for tanking - Sap Tank - or even a Steel Tornado spammer, you get more resources the more players stand in your AoE. Basically, all classes got their abilities to manage resources inmidst an enemy zerg nerfed with 1.6, but NBs can do with Caltrops and the new Soul Tether just fine instead.

Now I see what you meant with the enemy scaling ressource regeneration.

The reason I gave Templars a 1 is because Channeled Focus Returns very few ressources (I think it's actually weaker than Restoring Aura) and even though Repentance is awesome if you manage to kill somebody until you do the 10% bonus just doesn't cut it, meaning you're basically stuck with nothing until you get a kill.

Concerning the changes to DK I'm not sure, because i still think Battle Roar can be very strong and the percent Max Stamina Bonus of Helping Hands synergizes really nicely with a Dragonknights tanky nature. However, I also see that the Regeneration provided by the SA+AOE combo can be insane and actually really boosts their tankiness.

Regarding Soul Thether, I thought they only added thethers to all targets in the AOE increasing the HP leech, but in what way does that affect Ressource Management?

It doesn't (I think), I just brought it up because I mentioned the old sap tank got nerfed as well - part of it being that you have to decide between damage or your extra 30% damage mitigation when morphing Consuming Darkness now. Instead, you can now use Soul Tether as an ultimate.

iseko

Sublime wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

The changes to Sorc and Templar were actually meant to keep the gape to NB/DK - I wouldn't give Templar 1 without that change as they have Channeled Focus and Repentence.

However, the highest regen you can get right now is with AoE + Siphoning Attacks, especially Caltrops, that's why. If you build for tanking - Sap Tank - or even a Steel Tornado spammer, you get more resources the more players stand in your AoE. Basically, all classes got their abilities to manage resources inmidst an enemy zerg nerfed with 1.6, but NBs can do with Caltrops and the new Soul Tether just fine instead.

Now I see what you meant with the enemy scaling ressource regeneration.

The reason I gave Templars a 1 is because Channeled Focus Returns very few ressources (I think it's actually weaker than Restoring Aura) and even though Repentance is awesome if you manage to kill somebody until you do the 10% bonus just doesn't cut it, meaning you're basically stuck with nothing until you get a kill.

Concerning the changes to DK I'm not sure, because i still think Battle Roar can be very strong and the percent Max Stamina Bonus of Helping Hands synergizes really nicely with a Dragonknights tanky nature. However, I also see that the Regeneration provided by the SA+AOE combo can be insane and actually really boosts their tankiness.

Regarding Soul Thether, I thought they only added thethers to all targets in the AOE increasing the HP leech, but in what way does that affect Ressource Management?

I thought so too. I tried it on my temp and holy *** was I wrong... 1) you do NOT have to be in the rune for it too work. Out of the rune you still get the return. At max lvl (the skill) Its about 250 magicka per second. That is another 500 magicka regen for free.

I run with 1300 magicka regen on my temp. Which is on the low side yes BUT I am wearing 2 heavy. I have 1600 spell dmg unbuffed. 26k health (some nice blazing shield stuff right there with CP in bastion) and 20k magicka.

Now with only 20k magicka and 1300 regen you would think I run out of magicka fast right. Wrong.
1) I use full warlock so that helps
2) channeled focus.
3) pots

The combination of 2 and 3 reloads ure magicka so bloody fast... If I activate those two and spam BoL my magicka pool is still going up. Channeled focus is a pretty awesome skill to be using in terms of resource management. It costs next to nothing and it allows you to dump points into other stats. With the combination of proper skill rotation (not just spamming high cost spells), the use of selective dodges and blocks I've got near infinite magicka using this skill. Just got to keep it up as much as u can. So every 8 seconds -> channeled focus. It also gives a nice resist buff (5k). With 2 heavy that gives me 29% damage mitigation (not taking into account enemy player penetration stats offcourse).

So I can get higher spell damage, higher health and some extra armor by sacrificing both magicka and magicka regen. Channeled focus helps me fill the gap on the latter making temps some pretty nice all rounders.

Added bonus: mist reduces magicka regen to 0. Technically channeled focus is not increasing magicka regen directly. Just returning magicka at a steady rate. So it works while in mist form. --> mist is a free skill for temps.

Cinbri

iseko wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

The changes to Sorc and Templar were actually meant to keep the gape to NB/DK - I wouldn't give Templar 1 without that change as they have Channeled Focus and Repentence.

However, the highest regen you can get right now is with AoE + Siphoning Attacks, especially Caltrops, that's why. If you build for tanking - Sap Tank - or even a Steel Tornado spammer, you get more resources the more players stand in your AoE. Basically, all classes got their abilities to manage resources inmidst an enemy zerg nerfed with 1.6, but NBs can do with Caltrops and the new Soul Tether just fine instead.

Now I see what you meant with the enemy scaling ressource regeneration.

The reason I gave Templars a 1 is because Channeled Focus Returns very few ressources (I think it's actually weaker than Restoring Aura) and even though Repentance is awesome if you manage to kill somebody until you do the 10% bonus just doesn't cut it, meaning you're basically stuck with nothing until you get a kill.

Concerning the changes to DK I'm not sure, because i still think Battle Roar can be very strong and the percent Max Stamina Bonus of Helping Hands synergizes really nicely with a Dragonknights tanky nature. However, I also see that the Regeneration provided by the SA+AOE combo can be insane and actually really boosts their tankiness.

Regarding Soul Thether, I thought they only added thethers to all targets in the AOE increasing the HP leech, but in what way does that affect Ressource Management?

I thought so too. I tried it on my temp and holy *** was I wrong... 1) you do NOT have to be in the rune for it too work. Out of the rune you still get the return. At max lvl (the skill) Its about 250 magicka per second. That is another 500 magicka regen for free.

I run with 1300 magicka regen on my temp. Which is on the low side yes BUT I am wearing 2 heavy. I have 1600 spell dmg unbuffed. 26k health (some nice blazing shield stuff right there with CP in bastion) and 20k magicka.

Now with only 20k magicka and 1300 regen you would think I run out of magicka fast right. Wrong.
1) I use full warlock so that helps
2) channeled focus.
3) pots

The combination of 2 and 3 reloads ure magicka so bloody fast... If I activate those two and spam BoL my magicka pool is still going up. Channeled focus is a pretty awesome skill to be using in terms of resource management. It costs next to nothing and it allows you to dump points into other stats. With the combination of proper skill rotation (not just spamming high cost spells), the use of selective dodges and blocks I've got near infinite magicka using this skill. Just got to keep it up as much as u can. So every 8 seconds -> channeled focus. It also gives a nice resist buff (5k). With 2 heavy that gives me 29% damage mitigation (not taking into account enemy player penetration stats offcourse).

So I can get higher spell damage, higher health and some extra armor by sacrificing both magicka and magicka regen. Channeled focus helps me fill the gap on the latter making temps some pretty nice all rounders.

Added bonus: mist reduces magicka regen to 0. Technically channeled focus is not increasing magicka regen directly. Just returning magicka at a steady rate. So it works while in mist form. --> mist is a free skill for temps.

To be more clear it restore 240 magicka in a 1 sec, and after healing buff morph nerf magicka morph is only viable left.

danno8

iseko wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

The changes to Sorc and Templar were actually meant to keep the gape to NB/DK - I wouldn't give Templar 1 without that change as they have Channeled Focus and Repentence.

However, the highest regen you can get right now is with AoE + Siphoning Attacks, especially Caltrops, that's why. If you build for tanking - Sap Tank - or even a Steel Tornado spammer, you get more resources the more players stand in your AoE. Basically, all classes got their abilities to manage resources inmidst an enemy zerg nerfed with 1.6, but NBs can do with Caltrops and the new Soul Tether just fine instead.

Now I see what you meant with the enemy scaling ressource regeneration.

The reason I gave Templars a 1 is because Channeled Focus Returns very few ressources (I think it's actually weaker than Restoring Aura) and even though Repentance is awesome if you manage to kill somebody until you do the 10% bonus just doesn't cut it, meaning you're basically stuck with nothing until you get a kill.

Concerning the changes to DK I'm not sure, because i still think Battle Roar can be very strong and the percent Max Stamina Bonus of Helping Hands synergizes really nicely with a Dragonknights tanky nature. However, I also see that the Regeneration provided by the SA+AOE combo can be insane and actually really boosts their tankiness.

Regarding Soul Thether, I thought they only added thethers to all targets in the AOE increasing the HP leech, but in what way does that affect Ressource Management?

I thought so too. I tried it on my temp and holy *** was I wrong... 1) you do NOT have to be in the rune for it too work. Out of the rune you still get the return. At max lvl (the skill) Its about 250 magicka per second. That is another 500 magicka regen for free.

I run with 1300 magicka regen on my temp. Which is on the low side yes BUT I am wearing 2 heavy. I have 1600 spell dmg unbuffed. 26k health (some nice blazing shield stuff right there with CP in bastion) and 20k magicka.

Now with only 20k magicka and 1300 regen you would think I run out of magicka fast right. Wrong.
1) I use full warlock so that helps
2) channeled focus.
3) pots

The combination of 2 and 3 reloads ure magicka so bloody fast... If I activate those two and spam BoL my magicka pool is still going up. Channeled focus is a pretty awesome skill to be using in terms of resource management. It costs next to nothing and it allows you to dump points into other stats. With the combination of proper skill rotation (not just spamming high cost spells), the use of selective dodges and blocks I've got near infinite magicka using this skill. Just got to keep it up as much as u can. So every 8 seconds -> channeled focus. It also gives a nice resist buff (5k). With 2 heavy that gives me 29% damage mitigation (not taking into account enemy player penetration stats offcourse).

So I can get higher spell damage, higher health and some extra armor by sacrificing both magicka and magicka regen. Channeled focus helps me fill the gap on the latter making temps some pretty nice all rounders.

Added bonus: mist reduces magicka regen to 0. Technically channeled focus is not increasing magicka regen directly. Just returning magicka at a steady rate. So it works while in mist form. --> mist is a free skill for temps.

Back in the day, when Blazing Shield shut down magicka regen, Channelled Focus was a great workaround that not many people knew about. The tooltip was bugged so it was believed to return only half of what it stated.

The devs made this skill extremely useful in 1.6 by lowering the cost to basically nothing, and I am seeing more and more rune circles in Cyrodiil every day.

iseko

Cinbri wrote: »

iseko wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

The changes to Sorc and Templar were actually meant to keep the gape to NB/DK - I wouldn't give Templar 1 without that change as they have Channeled Focus and Repentence.

However, the highest regen you can get right now is with AoE + Siphoning Attacks, especially Caltrops, that's why. If you build for tanking - Sap Tank - or even a Steel Tornado spammer, you get more resources the more players stand in your AoE. Basically, all classes got their abilities to manage resources inmidst an enemy zerg nerfed with 1.6, but NBs can do with Caltrops and the new Soul Tether just fine instead.

Now I see what you meant with the enemy scaling ressource regeneration.

The reason I gave Templars a 1 is because Channeled Focus Returns very few ressources (I think it's actually weaker than Restoring Aura) and even though Repentance is awesome if you manage to kill somebody until you do the 10% bonus just doesn't cut it, meaning you're basically stuck with nothing until you get a kill.

Concerning the changes to DK I'm not sure, because i still think Battle Roar can be very strong and the percent Max Stamina Bonus of Helping Hands synergizes really nicely with a Dragonknights tanky nature. However, I also see that the Regeneration provided by the SA+AOE combo can be insane and actually really boosts their tankiness.

Regarding Soul Thether, I thought they only added thethers to all targets in the AOE increasing the HP leech, but in what way does that affect Ressource Management?

I thought so too. I tried it on my temp and holy *** was I wrong... 1) you do NOT have to be in the rune for it too work. Out of the rune you still get the return. At max lvl (the skill) Its about 250 magicka per second. That is another 500 magicka regen for free.

I run with 1300 magicka regen on my temp. Which is on the low side yes BUT I am wearing 2 heavy. I have 1600 spell dmg unbuffed. 26k health (some nice blazing shield stuff right there with CP in bastion) and 20k magicka.

Now with only 20k magicka and 1300 regen you would think I run out of magicka fast right. Wrong.
1) I use full warlock so that helps
2) channeled focus.
3) pots

The combination of 2 and 3 reloads ure magicka so bloody fast... If I activate those two and spam BoL my magicka pool is still going up. Channeled focus is a pretty awesome skill to be using in terms of resource management. It costs next to nothing and it allows you to dump points into other stats. With the combination of proper skill rotation (not just spamming high cost spells), the use of selective dodges and blocks I've got near infinite magicka using this skill. Just got to keep it up as much as u can. So every 8 seconds -> channeled focus. It also gives a nice resist buff (5k). With 2 heavy that gives me 29% damage mitigation (not taking into account enemy player penetration stats offcourse).

So I can get higher spell damage, higher health and some extra armor by sacrificing both magicka and magicka regen. Channeled focus helps me fill the gap on the latter making temps some pretty nice all rounders.

Added bonus: mist reduces magicka regen to 0. Technically channeled focus is not increasing magicka regen directly. Just returning magicka at a steady rate. So it works while in mist form. --> mist is a free skill for temps.

To be more clear it restore 240 magicka in a 1 sec, and after healing buff morph nerf magicka morph is only viable left.

Yes but since magicka regen is over 2 seconds, 240 magicka every second equals 480 magicka regen

Francescolg

To be just able to heal is more important for me that having the highest possible magicka regen.
That is why on top of all I need hard-CC defense in form of Immovable pots AND my heavy armor skill. Channeled focus buffs only for 8 seconds, so it has to be included in a "very tight and highly optimized" rotation of skills, which are: Immovable, Blazing shield, Heal, Heal (in between heavy attacks) and so forth. (no place left for a pure magicka-buff skill)

Any mediocre PvP player will put CC on you (when they spot the healer) and the situations where you need CC-immunity are infinte in Cyrondil. The damage numbers are SO high that you must be able to react instantly (heal), otherwise the player gets killed after you notice his HP drop.

"Breaking free" (+animation, +lag) and immediately healing afterwards TAKES too much time and is no option for me in the most important situations. Channeled focus is one of this abilities that share a spot on my skill bar with Immovable but Immovable is by far more important to me than channeled focus! (against fear spamming and every kind of hard CC)

In surplus, If you just look at those two "defensive" abilities, they share the same armor-buff. Making it unattractive to combine them. That is why I prefer to have Immovable on both bars, instead of 1 channeled focus..! If I need more magicka regen I'd pick the mundus stone first!