Barrier needs a nerf

Garion

I have posted before about the current state of PvP and some suggestions I had for trying to move people away from the current zerg meta that dominates Cyrodiil. Not everyone agrees with my stance, but I am strongly behind creating a Cyrodiil when playing in smaller groups is viable either in small scale PvP or with a smaller group being able to take on larger groups.

Currently barrier provides a shield for an entire 24 man zerg blob. If they have just half of that group cycling barriers, that's an additional 240,000 damage (if the average barrier provides a 20k shield) any opposing force has to output in order to event start denting that group. Aside from this, with enough barriers in a raid barrier can be up permanently on a well organised rotation, making it virtually impossible to kill the zerg blob. The inevitable then happens... an endless battle ensues as more and more people pour into a keep and before you know it the server might as well be dead.

As a smaller group, it is impossible to do anything against these larger groups so long as they can cycle barriers in this way. If Zenimax are truly committed to 'spreading people out' in Cyrodiil and discouraging the zerg blob behaviour, a nerf to barrier is needed.

In an ideal world, I'd like to see barrier capped @ 6. In doing this, barrier would remain a viable ultimate for use in dungeons and trials as well as for smaller groups in PvP. For larger groups, it would simply mean that they would have to cycle more barriers (four per rotation to shield the entire raid) thus bringing them back into balance when facing a smaller force. They still have the advantage when compared to a smaller group (as they should), but it makes it viable for a smaller group of individuals to defend an outpost or keep versus a zerg / zerg blob.

Of course I understand there is going to be fierce opposition to this, but I am hoping that ZOS will pay attention to the fact that almost every change they have made only benefits the zerg mentality and look to make changes to skills such as these to reduce the attraction of this particular style of play. If they are totally against this, then I think that there should be some consideration on reducing / capping the shield size at 10k. This is still a very strong shield - particularly as it will shield the entire group - but it will significantly reduce the protection it provides to zerg blobs.

Anyway, discuss.

kkravaritieb17_ESO

Totally agree barrier is the only thing keeping zerg blobs alive. Something needs to change in order to discourage zerging.

The_Drexill

They need to make more skills group focused. If Barrier only hit the 4 people (which ideally would have been 8 people) in your group, it wouldn't be so bad... but yeah, constant barriers on a zerg is pretty crazy.

xylena

agreed completely, both barrier and purge need a much lower target cap and much higher cost

stack and spam zergblob tactics are low risk and high reward... until stacking poses a real danger of losing your entire raid to siege or small group aoe or npc nukes, expect the lags and blobs to continue, because it's the easiest way to win

players will only spread out in large battles if spreading out is equally or more effective than stacking

the issues with CC and invisible instakill gankers also continue to discourage players from striking out on their own, and encourage them to stay in the zergblob

Bashev

Yes barrier should have a cap of 6 players or the ultimate cost should be at least doubled.

Kas

i really hate the use of the word "zerg" here.
24 is a huge group, train, blob, raid, whatever you want to call it.
the "zerg" is those groups of 40-60 "solo" randoms running up and down like lemmings between alessia and sejanus (or other places).

apart form that, your numbers are off. barrier only hits 20 players, iirc. assuming a perfect rotation of said barriers is questionnable.

that being said, I don't really care too much about barrier. imho it's in credibly good to fight off siege weapon fire but apart from that mediocre at best. i'd really prefer to evolve pvp as whiole more into fights like 4v4s or 8v8s and such. barrier wont be as strong then, and randoms swimming in their zerg would have to learn to play even more so because individual performance would be much more important that way.

themdogesbite

Kas wrote: »

i really hate the use of the word "zerg" here.
24 is a huge group, train, blob, raid, whatever you want to call it.
the "zerg" is those groups of 40-60 "solo" randoms running up and down like lemmings between alessia and sejanus (or other places).

apart form that, your numbers are off. barrier only hits 20 players, iirc. assuming a perfect rotation of said barriers is questionnable.

that being said, I don't really care too much about barrier. imho it's in credibly good to fight off siege weapon fire but apart from that mediocre at best. i'd really prefer to evolve pvp as whiole more into fights like 4v4s or 8v8s and such. barrier wont be as strong then, and randoms swimming in their zerg would have to learn to play even more so because individual performance would be much more important that way.

You can still shield away arround 600k + damage from just rotating barriers alone. Most guild "raids" just have all their players using barrier, if you ever drop low? One barrier and entire raid is healed back up fully.

Purge / Barrier defiently needs to be tweaked, reducing teh ammount of players it hits should be the easiest way to do it.

And fully agree about your last comment, but anything like it seems to be something not many actually want, sadly.

cozmon3c_ESO

Kas wrote: »

i really hate the use of the word "zerg" here.
24 is a huge group, train, blob, raid, whatever you want to call it.
the "zerg" is those groups of 40-60 "solo" randoms running up and down like lemmings between alessia and sejanus (or other places).

apart form that, your numbers are off. barrier only hits 20 players, iirc. assuming a perfect rotation of said barriers is questionnable.

that being said, I don't really care too much about barrier. imho it's in credibly good to fight off siege weapon fire but apart from that mediocre at best. i'd really prefer to evolve pvp as whiole more into fights like 4v4s or 8v8s and such. barrier wont be as strong then, and randoms swimming in their zerg would have to learn to play even more so because individual performance would be much more important that way.

well its a zerg whether you like the term or not.

Lava_Croft

Instead of lowering the target cap, I'd rather see the cost greatly increased. AvA skills are special because of their target caps. If you lower the caps, then how about Retreating Maneuver? War Horn?

And calling a group of 24 players a zerg is silly.

AbraXuSeXile

Kas wrote: »

i really hate the use of the word "zerg" here.
24 is a huge group, train, blob, raid, whatever you want to call it.
the "zerg" is those groups of 40-60 "solo" randoms running up and down like lemmings between alessia and sejanus (or other places).

apart form that, your numbers are off. barrier only hits 20 players, iirc. assuming a perfect rotation of said barriers is questionnable.

I really like this post, I've been saying for a long time the real zerkers are the ones that are nuttcupping from keep to keep next to a ton of allies.

Barrier doesn't need a nerf, It's easy to kill raids who use barrier. I think this is a L2P issue.

Oughash

We are calling for barrier nerfs now?

Agreed that This is the only skill keeping anybody alive. But It only takes one siege hit to take down a full barrier. And there are usually 8000 siege for any keep defense.

King Bozo

Um no does not make any sense to nerf these abilites.

kkravaritieb17_ESO

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

i really hate the use of the word "zerg" here.
24 is a huge group, train, blob, raid, whatever you want to call it.
the "zerg" is those groups of 40-60 "solo" randoms running up and down like lemmings between alessia and sejanus (or other places).

apart form that, your numbers are off. barrier only hits 20 players, iirc. assuming a perfect rotation of said barriers is questionnable.

I really like this post, I've been saying for a long time the real zerkers are the ones that are nuttcupping from keep to keep next to a ton of allies.

Barrier doesn't need a nerf, It's easy to kill raids who use barrier. I think this is a L2P issue.

Good luck killing 2 full 24 men groups running together spamming barriers every time they drop low.

kkravaritieb17_ESO

Barrier should be unlocked at AvA 10.

cozmon3c_ESO

kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »

Barrier should be unlocked at AvA 10.

then the ones who are abusing it now will really have no counter lol. i see what you are trying to do.

Kas

kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

i really hate the use of the word "zerg" here.
24 is a huge group, train, blob, raid, whatever you want to call it.
the "zerg" is those groups of 40-60 "solo" randoms running up and down like lemmings between alessia and sejanus (or other places).

apart form that, your numbers are off. barrier only hits 20 players, iirc. assuming a perfect rotation of said barriers is questionnable.

I really like this post, I've been saying for a long time the real zerkers are the ones that are nuttcupping from keep to keep next to a ton of allies.

Barrier doesn't need a nerf, It's easy to kill raids who use barrier. I think this is a L2P issue.

Good luck killing 2 full 24 men groups running together spamming barriers every time they drop low.

Your signature suggest you already do this.
You should probably change it to: "Destroyer of Zergs (that don't use barrier)"

Kidding aside, I have yet to meet those unkillable groups. Maybe I'm just lucky there are non on Azuras. I have to admit that stacking barriers in huge groups sounds pretty annoying to fight. However, I haven't seen too much of it in the wild, tbh.

kkravaritieb17_ESO

Well every noone atm in a zerg blob can easily reach AvA 6 and be a barrier bot. Barrier needs some tweaking as to its cap thats for sure.

AbraXuSeXile

kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

i really hate the use of the word "zerg" here.
24 is a huge group, train, blob, raid, whatever you want to call it.
the "zerg" is those groups of 40-60 "solo" randoms running up and down like lemmings between alessia and sejanus (or other places).

apart form that, your numbers are off. barrier only hits 20 players, iirc. assuming a perfect rotation of said barriers is questionnable.

I really like this post, I've been saying for a long time the real zerkers are the ones that are nuttcupping from keep to keep next to a ton of allies.

Barrier doesn't need a nerf, It's easy to kill raids who use barrier. I think this is a L2P issue.

Good luck killing 2 full 24 men groups running together spamming barriers every time they drop low.

We have 2 full ep raids running every evening together on Chillrend, they are no issue when it doesnt lag. Its about tactics and countering what they do while maintaining our tactics. Im not gonna write an essay on how to deal with organised groups, it should be common knowledge now.

its highly hilarious that a sorc is calling for shield nerfs.

kkravaritieb17_ESO

Yeah everybody knows the famous exile tactics...

kkravaritieb17_ESO

Kas wrote: »

kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

i really hate the use of the word "zerg" here.
24 is a huge group, train, blob, raid, whatever you want to call it.
the "zerg" is those groups of 40-60 "solo" randoms running up and down like lemmings between alessia and sejanus (or other places).

apart form that, your numbers are off. barrier only hits 20 players, iirc. assuming a perfect rotation of said barriers is questionnable.

I really like this post, I've been saying for a long time the real zerkers are the ones that are nuttcupping from keep to keep next to a ton of allies.

Barrier doesn't need a nerf, It's easy to kill raids who use barrier. I think this is a L2P issue.

Good luck killing 2 full 24 men groups running together spamming barriers every time they drop low.

Your signature suggest you already do this.
You should probably change it to: "Destroyer of Zergs (that don't use barrier)"

Kidding aside, I have yet to meet those unkillable groups. Maybe I'm just lucky there are non on Azuras. I have to admit that stacking barriers in huge groups sounds pretty annoying to fight. However, I haven't seen too much of it in the wild, tbh.

Yeah i should change my signature thats pre 1.6 when zergs were a tad smaller

But you didnt see the huge group on Haderus Sunday evening like 3 24 man groups running together lagging everybody out and spamming barriers.

Sotha_Sil

kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »

Good luck killing 2 full 24 men groups running together spamming barriers every time they drop low.

Well sure, you run a 8-man group or whatever with your squad and of course you can't kill them

I agree with Abraxus on this subject, barrier is not really an issue as it goes down way faster with 1.6 that what it used to be.

The real issue is that you encounter lag as soon as there are large groups in cyrodiil and then groups with barrier will stand up against the masses so more people will come and so on. But it's not the player's fault. It's the server lag...

kkravaritieb17_ESO

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »

Good luck killing 2 full 24 men groups running together spamming barriers every time they drop low.

Well sure, you run a 8-man group or whatever with your squad and of course you can't kill them. Definitely a L2P issue. I agree with Abraxus on this subject, barrier is not really an issue as it goes down way faster with 1.6 that what it used to be.

So your response is in order to be able to fight the zerg we should be come a zerg too. Yeah sure we should l2p.

Sotha_Sil

kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »

Good luck killing 2 full 24 men groups running together spamming barriers every time they drop low.

Well sure, you run a 8-man group or whatever with your squad and of course you can't kill them. Definitely a L2P issue. I agree with Abraxus on this subject, barrier is not really an issue as it goes down way faster with 1.6 that what it used to be.

So your response is in order to be able to fight the zerg we should be come a zerg too. Yeah sure we should l2p.

Well right now it's how the game is played. Or are you a new player ? I'm not saying it should be played like this. I'm saying how it is. Fact.

eliisra

I could live with Barrier and pretty much all Alliance skills being nerfed down to 12 targets. That's a small raid, not enough to crash server performance and also max number of players in a PvE raid/trial. Remember that PvE'ers also grind war ranks to unlock these skills for trials, nerf it down to 6 targets and it's crap in both PvP and PvE. Than you might as well remove Barrier completely from the skill tree.

Also amazing with the sorcs in this tread asking for shield nerfs and calling other players shield bots. How about we increase the cost of Hardened Ward instead?

Sotha_Sil

There are people out there willing to play with a 24-man group as you are willing to play with a 8-man group or solo or any other type of group you want.

I don't understand why we should stop these people from having fun by removing skills used for group play (purge, barrier...) just because the server can't support lag.

The solution here is to give little groups some ways to compete but right now, experienced groups of 8-man can bring down any zerg of 24 if these large groups are not prepared or well coordinated.

I agree that against 24 well cordinated groups you will have hurdles bringing them down but maybe it just means you have found people as good as you are.

ToRelax

I totally agree, imo there should be no skills affecting more than 6 or so allies - however, from what I can remember, ZOS explained they like that the alliance war skills are better for "groups", so i dont have much hope this will change.

Worst example is Purge, how I hate Purge spamming... the msot hilarious one is Vigor.

kkravaritieb17_ESO

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

There are people out there willing to play with a 24-man group as you are willing to play with a 8-man group or solo or any other type of group you want.

I don't understand why we should stop these people from having fun by removing skills used for group play (purge, barrier...) just because the server can't support lag.

The solution here is to give little groups some ways to compete but right now, experienced groups of 8-man can bring down any zerg of 24 if these large groups are not prepared or well coordinated. I agree that against 24 well cordinated groups you will have hurdles but I mean at some point if you face 24 people as good as your 8, who should win ?

I dont have a problem with one 24 man group, but with two three 24 man groups running together.

kkravaritieb17_ESO

eliisra wrote: »

I could live with Barrier and pretty much all Alliance skills being nerfed down to 12 targets. That's a small raid, not enough to crash server performance and also max number of players in a PvE raid/trial. Remember that PvE'ers also grind war ranks to unlock these skills for trials, nerf it down to 6 targets and it's crap in both PvP and PvE. Than you might as well remove Barrier completely from the skill tree.

Also amazing with the sorcs in this tread asking for shield nerfs and calling other players shield bots. How about we increase the cost of Hardened Ward instead?

12 people cap is an acceptable number.

Sanct16

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

i really hate the use of the word "zerg" here.
24 is a huge group, train, blob, raid, whatever you want to call it.
the "zerg" is those groups of 40-60 "solo" randoms running up and down like lemmings between alessia and sejanus (or other places).

apart form that, your numbers are off. barrier only hits 20 players, iirc. assuming a perfect rotation of said barriers is questionnable.

I really like this post, I've been saying for a long time the real zerkers are the ones that are nuttcupping from keep to keep next to a ton of allies.

Barrier doesn't need a nerf, It's easy to kill raids who use barrier. I think this is a L2P issue.

So if this is a L2P issue you surely can provide a way to counter up to 480k points of damageshield (per player) as a smaller group?


@OP,
I fully agree on this topic. I think barrier should be reduced to 6 targets.

Sotha_Sil

kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »

I dont have a problem with one 24 man group, but with two three 24 man groups running together.

You might be nostalgic of ESO launch when vampires would solo zergs :)I mean at some point if you think you can kill everyone with few people...

Have you tried using siege weapons ? every zerg dies this way like it or not -when the game does not lag, ok I agree, it doesn't happen often.

I don't like the way it is personally and I wish there were more skills and gameplay diversity but the game should not punish people who want to play as a large group.

Barrier is not a big deal in 1.6!

AbraXuSeXile

Sanct16 wrote: »

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

i really hate the use of the word "zerg" here.
24 is a huge group, train, blob, raid, whatever you want to call it.
the "zerg" is those groups of 40-60 "solo" randoms running up and down like lemmings between alessia and sejanus (or other places).

apart form that, your numbers are off. barrier only hits 20 players, iirc. assuming a perfect rotation of said barriers is questionnable.

I really like this post, I've been saying for a long time the real zerkers are the ones that are nuttcupping from keep to keep next to a ton of allies.

Barrier doesn't need a nerf, It's easy to kill raids who use barrier. I think this is a L2P issue.

So if this is a L2P issue you surely can provide a way to counter up to 480k points of damageshield (per player) as a smaller group?


@OP,
I fully agree on this topic. I think barrier should be reduced to 6 targets.

Its easy, try using tactics instead of trying to faceroll and hoping for the best.