Post 1.6 PVP Balancing Needed Badly

Zsymon

To be honest I can live with one overpowered combination, concerning regen. If you'd nerf them, you'd have to nerf other non-overpowered class and race combinations, causing their regen to be far too low.

Cody

Soris_ESO wrote: »

I've been using wrecking blow and 2h weapons exclusively since maybe october, before the 2h buff(rally etc) along with some other fellow stamina templars from EU server. So I know how it was ridiculously hard to land it on enemies in some situations like you said, I said.. We both aggre on this I guess.

However it was the benchmark that defines how skillful you are with it. You should know when to use it and when to not use it, how far you should stay when using it to prevent being bashed yadda yadda. And it was already too easy to avoid by moving in circles like now. It is not a new thing. People just realised now since everyone using it.

It offered the biggest prize by having bigger risks while also having longer cast time.
It is now indeed easy mode button because of this. And everyone using it, became masters of swords in one day.

edit: About DW example you said, that's a fair example tbh. Agree on that. But yet again, you should not spam WB like it's your only skill have in your bars.

I just want it became interrutable again, not nerfing the damage.(nerf having 4k weapon power if it's the case) And also maybe old animation if it's possible

so i should never use it against someone with a destruction staff and a bow?

great. lots of skill involved with being forced to avoid a good portion of the PvP playerbase.

Cody

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Just wanna state my opinions.

PvP is better than it was then before that melee is a actual value now. How ever the reason every one running 2H now is cause of wrecking blow. That is one of the few skills that need looked at cause it's turning into what lethal arrow used to be a "I win button".

They do need to start doing campaign resets to stop the pvdooring and hopefully cut back on the night/day capping. They should have fixed this a long time ago but they need to look at wall sieges. You know where the attackers are on a wall like say Roe's mine side where they can siege but the defenders can't do anything to them cause the counter siege can't reach them.

Last part that comes to mind is they need to look at sorc. Cause right now there "the" class to be cause all a sorc has to do is spam crystal frags, mages wrath, and of course bolt escape and they can melt any one near them. Also the need to reduce the break free of fear even with high break free cost reduction skill it still somehow always needs 1/3 of the stamina bar.

lethal arrow was never an "I win" button:/

golfer.dub17_ESO

tcgoetzub17_ESO wrote: »

[*] More than half of the people in PVP are running two hander now. That alone tells you that something is wrong. There haver been plenty of posts whats wrong with two hander, so I won't go into that here.

Fallacious reasoning first of all. Correlation-causation.

Second, try it yourself. You'll find your character just standing still staring at the enemy as the ability constantly cancels itself, and when it does hit it will be doing 6k damage max. "Oh but some guy on the PTS with a million champ points hit for.." Please do not attempt to balance it around outliers and thus ruining it for everyone else.

It's far easier, far more effective to either spam rapid strikes, or play a Nightblade and two-shot people from stealth.

People saying "make it interruptable", are you f***ing serious? Do you not realize how literally worthless it would be? It's already easily avoidable, it already has a long window for you to block it, and now you want to make canceling it even easier.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

WB is a B**** in PvP in my opinion. It is a huge pain to use. Easily dodged and simply moving slightly to the left or right screws the skill up. Practice could help, but I found the skill far to tedious to even bother with. I slot surprise attack instead.

What I would like to see is abilities damage being reduced by 30% if holding block. This isn't just for balance, it's realistic. If you are defending with your shield up you're simply not attacking with full force. The only exception to this would be spears and one or two other weapons. None of which are in the game.

Certain skills hit harder than they should. One or two shotting people in PvP is a bit ridiculous. These skills need a bit of re-balancing. Even I have done it, and I'm always like "wow, how did I just do that, that's ***!". Sure I say it with a smile because who doesn't like seeing themselves hit a target for 17k. However I realize that it's also stupid.

I don't mind "perma dodgers" because I dodge a lot as well. Just have to be patient when fighting one and not spam skills. you will waste your resources. Wait for them to attack. What they can balance is the ability to dodge and attack at the same time.

I still think shield stacking is a pain however more and more I have learned ways around it. Again, timing and using high burst skills with CC while shields are down can kill many sorcs before they can break CC. It's not easy and shield stacking is very powerful but doesn't really need a nerf. If anything perhaps increase the cost of the ability.

These are the things I consider needing "balancing" if anything at all.

Soris

Cody wrote: »

Soris_ESO wrote: »

I've been using wrecking blow and 2h weapons exclusively since maybe october, before the 2h buff(rally etc) along with some other fellow stamina templars from EU server. So I know how it was ridiculously hard to land it on enemies in some situations like you said, I said.. We both aggre on this I guess.

However it was the benchmark that defines how skillful you are with it. You should know when to use it and when to not use it, how far you should stay when using it to prevent being bashed yadda yadda. And it was already too easy to avoid by moving in circles like now. It is not a new thing. People just realised now since everyone using it.

It offered the biggest prize by having bigger risks while also having longer cast time.
It is now indeed easy mode button because of this. And everyone using it, became masters of swords in one day.

edit: About DW example you said, that's a fair example tbh. Agree on that. But yet again, you should not spam WB like it's your only skill have in your bars.

I just want it became interrutable again, not nerfing the damage.(nerf having 4k weapon power if it's the case) And also maybe old animation if it's possible

so i should never use it against someone with a destruction staff and a bow?

great. lots of skill involved with being forced to avoid a good portion of the PvP playerbase.

Noo you just need to stop spamming it for a second and use it situational like after applying stun,fear etc. Venom arrow couldn't interrupt stamina skills afaik. At least not WB, dunno about snipe. I don't remember I have ever interrupted by it even once.

You guys forgot the fact about it is un-interruptable just for couple weeks. There was a whole one year before that and there were people achieved success with it for any situation. I, myself one of these people and I know many others. Call me elitist I don't care, but it is easy mode currently sorry about that.

Here, watch this. Fights between Mage and Mumyo including CS spam vs WB. All you need was immovable and some random stun. Start at 12:50.
https://youtu.be/zYNgamnjimo

wretch200

Cody wrote: »

I am going to say this: PvP has never been balanced. It was best at launch

Wut. Your account is probably 2 months old, because it was way broken at launch.

FireCowCommando

I think the idea that there may be a few abilities that are over performing, and others that are under performing. With such a large change to the entire structure of how the game plays in 1.6 there was bound to be a few tweaks needed.

Which ones, and to what degree, ZoS will decide. I dont feel that there is anything that is broken strong.

For me the two i feel may be over performing are Steel Tornado, and Wrecking blow.

WB for me only because the CC break animation does not give you control of your character until the second WB has already landed, and 2 WB combo with no counter usually spells death.

Hard to get a complete accurate feel for the game, since there are skills that are completely broken and unable to be used, such as eclipse.

olsborg

Molten weapons (or whtvr) and heavy inferno staff attacks, wtf

Derra

Overload is a joke of an ultimate. I would love it to be working differently.

Make it a 50 cost one nuke like NBs have with some sort of buff associated to it. Atm its to farm scrubs on horseback or bust bc its so easily hardcountered (sry for templars bc they literally can´t do anything about it).

Draxys

I don't think any stamina skills are an issue. However, there is a massive gap between magicka and stamina now in terms of dmg output, and it will only get worse with time due to the champion system. Stamina generally requires more risk, so I do think it should be a little more powerful than magicka, but not to the point that it is right now.

david.haypreub18_ESO

PvP has never been balanced, but it is closer now than ever before.

What I'm most disheartened by are the Templar bugs and the fact that when I started a thread on how my Templar can kill a Sorc, the consensus seems to be that he can't (only a stamina NB attacking from stealth, a stamina DK or another Sorc can). This is of course not a universal opinion, and certainly many Sorcerors have been killed by many Templars, but it certainly seems that the deck is stacked against the Templar right now... and this is after a major round of Templar buffs.

The latest patch, rather than fixing the documented broken skills of the Templar, we got another nerf to Radiant Destruction.

So I am hoping that at least the Templar bugs can be fixed to give us a shot against Sorcs (fixing Eclipse might really help). I say this as someone who plays both classes.

Joy_Division

^^ As a fellow templar, I can't say the LOS blocking Radiant Destruction is a nerf. I do think that all skills either should be blocked by LOS or none of them should. As NBs can teleport through posterns to ambush targets behind them, I am not sure as many skills are blocked by LOS as people think there are.

And, yes, as a templar (particularly magikca) you are at a noticeable disadvantage if you are ever in a 1v1 fight with an equally skilled sorcerer. The templar, if they have the right skills slotted, can do a good job at not dying. But eventually the templar will make a mistake and be screwed. Whereas the sorc who makes a mistake can disengage and reengage at will.

Ezareth

Derra wrote: »

Overload is a joke of an ultimate. I would love it to be working differently.

Make it a 50 cost one nuke like NBs have with some sort of buff associated to it. Atm its to farm scrubs on horseback or bust bc its so easily hardcountered (sry for templars bc they literally can´t do anything about it).

Eclipse - Defensive Stance destroy Overload.

Also Harness Magicka stacked on top of your Blazing shield allows you to do some absurd damage to the Sorc.

Joy_Division wrote: »

^^ As a fellow templar, I can't say the LOS blocking Radiant Destruction is a nerf. I do think that all skills either should be blocked by LOS or none of them should. As NBs can teleport through posterns to ambush targets behind them, I am not sure as many skills are blocked by LOS as people think there are.

And, yes, as a templar (particularly magikca) you are at a noticeable disadvantage if you are ever in a 1v1 fight with an equally skilled sorcerer. The templar, if they have the right skills slotted, can do a good job at not dying. But eventually the templar will make a mistake and be screwed. Whereas the sorc who makes a mistake can disengage and reengage at will.

I think the nerf to Jesus beam is BS. Soul Assault isn't broken on LoS. I kind of liked the idea of "Beams" going staying on the target. Nerfing templar offensive abilities are pretty BS right now.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

i agree WB needs adjustment

overload is not a light attack its an ultimate that you click light attack to use, but seeing that sorcs can actually use 1000 ult pool unlike anyone else, something seems off with how strong it is.

there is no 100% dodge for 30 seconds get real. it seems dodge roll gives x seconds of dodge after rolling and there should probably be a global cooldown for that buff so there has to be a window between constant dodging where it isnt up.

Ezareth

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

i agree WB needs adjustment

overload is not a light attack its an ultimate that you click light attack to use, but seeing that sorcs can actually use 1000 ult pool unlike anyone else, something seems off with how strong it is.

there is no 100% dodge for 30 seconds get real. it seems dodge roll gives x seconds of dodge after rolling and there should probably be a global cooldown for that buff so there has to be a window between constant dodging where it isnt up.

Yeah what ever happened to my WW 1000 ult homies??

I dont know *any* sorcs who save up 1000 ult before going all Palpatine on people's asses.

rfennell_ESO

Soris_ESO wrote: »

Your combo alone hits over 30k dmg by just left clicking 3 times.

And read the topic title please.

Let's turn this into what it is.. I was trying to run away and a got hit in the back by three light overload attacks and I hate sorcs because of it.

PS any archer build would have hit you for more. So would the critical charge=>uppercut nonsense and they would have done it quicker.

tcgoetzub17_ESO

Wow, this thread is still going?

Time to clarify a few things.

Overload light attack - the sorc hit me for 22k damage is 1s. As a NB specced in to wep damage and stam, I have a high spike damage, but I can't do 22k dps ranged. The best I can do is one rotation of Focus aim (12k), cancel with light (3k), poison arrow (4.5k) == 19.5k. Now, I can get higher dps with melee, but this is ranged. Should the sorc have better ranged dps when they also have better escape (BE > cloak) and better ability to take damage (shields > med armor, blur, etc).

As to seeing enemy abilities and blocking, I don't know how many times I see one ability and I'm dead. When I look at my death recap, I see 4 things that never animated. Similarly, I saw the dotted ring for meteor on me, stopped all other actions and blocked, I took full damage and was insta killed.

I don't believe that watching you opponents animations is even close to a reliable way to counter. I think some of the people who are saying just watch what your opponent is doing and block get away with that because they're always blocking and block casting.

BTW, this is based on a 100 ping connection and a maxed out computer.

tcgoetzub17_ESO

Oh, and to the people defending two hander. You say if I just move, then WB will fail. I'm never standing still unless I'mm CCed. If I'm CCed, I'm breaking ti and evading. Yet, still crit rush, WB, WB...

My experience is that on the current code on the server, you aren't even close to right.

Seems like the gangs or 3-4 people spamming WB are multiply.

Also looks like no balance issues addressed in todays patch. How long till 80% of PVPers are running two hander? And don't bother with causation-correlation, PVPers aren't running two hander cause they like big swords.

rfennell_ESO

It's not possible to get off 3 overload light attacks in 1 second.

If there is a big battle, half the time the sorc gets stuck in the heavy attack animation and you have to block to cancel it.

Most of the time the overload light attacks gibbing is from being hit while unaware.

Archer's do far worse when you are unaware.

Ezareth

tcgoetzub17_ESO wrote: »

Wow, this thread is still going?

Time to clarify a few things.

Overload light attack - the sorc hit me for 22k damage is 1s. As a NB specced in to wep damage and stam, I have a high spike damage, but I can't do 22k dps ranged. The best I can do is one rotation of Focus aim (12k), cancel with light (3k), poison arrow (4.5k) == 19.5k. Now, I can get higher dps with melee, but this is ranged. Should the sorc have better ranged dps when they also have better escape (BE > cloak) and better ability to take damage (shields > med armor, blur, etc).

As to seeing enemy abilities and blocking, I don't know how many times I see one ability and I'm dead. When I look at my death recap, I see 4 things that never animated. Similarly, I saw the dotted ring for meteor on me, stopped all other actions and blocked, I took full damage and was insta killed.

I don't believe that watching you opponents animations is even close to a reliable way to counter. I think some of the people who are saying just watch what your opponent is doing and block get away with that because they're always blocking and block casting.

BTW, this is based on a 100 ping connection and a maxed out computer.

Click on my signature, and watch my PvP videos. Probably 70% of my many kills in those videos are from overload.

Show me any time I'm killing anyone with 3 overloads in 1 second or less. The smalllest window of time you can fit 3 overloads into using my technique is a hair over 2 seconds if I had to guess.

Secondly, just because *you* can't hit a certain amount of damage doesn't mean it can't be done. I've seen single Lethal arrows over 20K before from stealth. 22K in a rotation with a bow is actually pretty weak.

You really only want to block overload if you're a DK with a Sword and board block setup....otherwise you should be dodge roll it. A single dodge roll will cause 3 overloads in a row to miss while you will get get for half damage by all 3 with block(unless you're S&B.

Draxys

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

PvP has never been balanced, but it is closer now than ever before.

Class-wise, yes. Stamina vs magica, not even close.

tcgoetzub17_ESO

Ezareth wrote: »

Click on my signature, and watch my PvP videos. Probably 70% of my many kills in those videos are from overload.

Show me any time I'm killing anyone with 3 overloads in 1 second or less. The smalllest window of time you can fit 3 overloads into using my technique is a hair over 2 seconds if I had to guess.

So, you're saying if you can't do it, then it can't be done?

What I can say it that my health went from full to empty is about a second and when I looked at my death recap to see WTF happened, what I saw was three overload light attacks.

Ezareth wrote: »

Secondly, just because *you* can't hit a certain amount of damage doesn't mean it can't be done. I've seen single Lethal arrows over 20K before from stealth. 22K in a rotation with a bow is actually pretty weak.

Are you talking about the max you could get, say against a vulnerable target or average? I could see the numbers your talking about for a max, but not an average.

I'm specced into weapon damage, granted my melee weapon damage is higher (3200, 3500 buffed), but my bow (2800 base, plus master bow proc) isn't bad. The numbers I gave you are good averages.

Lethal might put out a little more than focused aim, but it isn't usable for me since most of the time after you use lethal you can't stealth again because of the dot. So, it's good for nuking people off of horses, but not good for real combat.

Draehl

Draxys wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

PvP has never been balanced, but it is closer now than ever before.

Class-wise, yes. Stamina vs magica, not even close.

Yes, but I feel like the issue is more sustain vs. burst. Burst skills are just so strong and sustained damage like the vast majority of DoTs or lower cost spells feel incredibly weak in comparison.

I feel like some adjustments would go a long way and I would do three things:

1. Increase the Cyrodiil Battle Spirit hp buff from 5k to 10k. Burst will still give a strong advantage in securing a kill, but the game won't consist solely around bursting.
2. Increase the Cyrodiil Battle Spirit healing penalty by 5-10% - It is currently too easy to top players off. With some take from burst you also have to take from healing to keep from healing/defense from becoming too strong.
3. Slightly reduce the damage of the half dozen or so skills that are doing too much damage. In interest of not starting a flame war I will just say everyone knows what these are, despite innumerable people who will jump to defend them to defend their current OPness. If everyone takes a small hit then it will just even the tables, rather than single anyone out. They span multiple classes, there's no sense in getting our feathers ruffled other than agreeing everyone has skills that hit too hard.

tcgoetzub17_ESO

Draehl wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

PvP has never been balanced, but it is closer now than ever before.

Class-wise, yes. Stamina vs magica, not even close.

Yes, but I feel like the issue is more sustain vs. burst. Burst skills are just so strong and sustained damage like the vast majority of DoTs or lower cost spells feel incredibly weak in comparison.

I feel like some adjustments would go a long way and I would do three things:

1. Increase the Cyrodiil Battle Spirit hp buff from 5k to 10k. Burst will still give a strong advantage in securing a kill, but the game won't consist solely around bursting.
2. Increase the Cyrodiil Battle Spirit healing penalty by 5-10% - It is currently too easy to top players off. With some take from burst you also have to take from healing to keep from healing/defense from becoming too strong.
3. Slightly reduce the damage of the handful of skills that are doing too much damage. In interest of not starting a flamewar I will just say everyone knows what these are, despite innumerable people who will just to defend them to defend their current OPness. They span multiple classes, there's no sense in getting our feathers ruffled other than agreeing everyone has skills that hit too hard.

I can't agree at all.

Yes, if you run into a burst damage toon alone, your in trouble, but a burst damage toon is in trouble in a field fight these days. The sustain builds rule those fights. As a burst damage stam build, you can't keep you stam up in those fights, even with pots. You spend a lot of time heavy attacking to regen stam.

Draehl

tcgoetzub17_ESO wrote: »

I can't agree at all.

Yes, if you run into a burst damage toon alone, your in trouble, but a burst damage toon is in trouble in a field fight these days. The sustain builds rule those fights. As a burst damage stam build, you can't keep you stam up in those fights, even with pots. You spend a lot of time heavy attacking to regen stam.

I'll just say I (attempt) to play a sustained damage/offhealer NB caster and the frustration isn't so much defensively- I can handle my own in most situations, but this game is offensively frustrating. My allies run around blowing people up before my shades, DoTs, and more efficient spells can make much impact. The role of pressure type damage that I've played in every MMO feels drastically marginalized in this game. Partly, again due to allies blowing everyone up, DoTs in particular being rather weak, and burst builds having rather strong resource management to the point that they don't even worry about efficiency. There is no negative to playing a burst build.

You're either a tanky distraction or a burstmonkey. TBH there's not much room in between in this PvP environment and its incredibly frustrating.

Joy_Division

Ezareth wrote: »

I think the nerf to Jesus beam is BS. Soul Assault isn't broken on LoS. I kind of liked the idea of "Beams" going staying on the target. Nerfing templar offensive abilities are pretty BS right now.

Can't argue with the last point I do think consistency is most important; either things are broken by LOS or they are not.

MrGhosty

Soris_ESO wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Soris_ESO wrote: »

And the other guy just clicks left mouse button while you doing all these. Lol

he has to hit cc break lol, you have to go on defensive when overload is up, i go on defensive when i see it as well as a sorc. if you try and kill a sorc with out some form of defense going, your going to get owned by it.

Hahaha yeah that's big skillz man. They have to press break free sometimes.

Like pew pew pew - reload - pew pew

I don't normally like to call people out, but you sir have some serious hangups about being classified as a "skilled" player. As someone who long ago had to make piece with Lag ruling the day in every online multiplayer game I play, it isn't about how many buttons you have to push that makes a skill use skillful. It is about knowing WHEN to push that button (it's not an I win button anyway). The skill in playing this game from the PvP perspective is more about lining up your attacks, putting together a strong bar and having the situational awareness to know when your bar can win the day and when it cannot.

I think perhaps they need to just completely scrap the PvP as it stands now and start over. Let everyone create and customize an alliance soldier of their faction that is completely separate from their champion in the PvE realm. From that point they can create entirely new trees based on the classic archetypes of the classes as we know them in PvE but they would not be as tweakable as their PvE counterparts. THEN when there are balance issues, those changes don't have unintended consequences in the PvE realm and everyone gets a balanced PvP experience and we can all get back to arguing how skillful our three button presses are compared to the two button presses.

Draehl

MrGhosty wrote: »

Soris_ESO wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Soris_ESO wrote: »

And the other guy just clicks left mouse button while you doing all these. Lol

he has to hit cc break lol, you have to go on defensive when overload is up, i go on defensive when i see it as well as a sorc. if you try and kill a sorc with out some form of defense going, your going to get owned by it.

Hahaha yeah that's big skillz man. They have to press break free sometimes.

Like pew pew pew - reload - pew pew

I don't normally like to call people out, but you sir have some serious hangups about being classified as a "skilled" player. As someone who long ago had to make piece with Lag ruling the day in every online multiplayer game I play, it isn't about how many buttons you have to push that makes a skill use skillful. It is about knowing WHEN to push that button (it's not an I win button anyway). The skill in playing this game from the PvP perspective is more about lining up your attacks, putting together a strong bar and having the situational awareness to know when your bar can win the day and when it cannot.

I think perhaps they need to just completely scrap the PvP as it stands now and start over. Let everyone create and customize an alliance soldier of their faction that is completely separate from their champion in the PvE realm. From that point they can create entirely new trees based on the classic archetypes of the classes as we know them in PvE but they would not be as tweakable as their PvE counterparts. THEN when there are balance issues, those changes don't have unintended consequences in the PvE realm and everyone gets a balanced PvP experience and we can all get back to arguing how skillful our three button presses are compared to the two button presses.

Blech. I'm not against the idea of PvP only characters, but take away the customization and I'm out. That's the whole reason to play an MMO over other types of multiplayer games, especially ones like ESO with open/limited skillbars- create the exact playstyle you enjoy. Better to have a PvP/PvE split for skill balance than kill the main thing this game has going for it.

MrGhosty

Draehl wrote: »

MrGhosty wrote: »

Soris_ESO wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Soris_ESO wrote: »

And the other guy just clicks left mouse button while you doing all these. Lol

he has to hit cc break lol, you have to go on defensive when overload is up, i go on defensive when i see it as well as a sorc. if you try and kill a sorc with out some form of defense going, your going to get owned by it.

Hahaha yeah that's big skillz man. They have to press break free sometimes.

Like pew pew pew - reload - pew pew

I don't normally like to call people out, but you sir have some serious hangups about being classified as a "skilled" player. As someone who long ago had to make piece with Lag ruling the day in every online multiplayer game I play, it isn't about how many buttons you have to push that makes a skill use skillful. It is about knowing WHEN to push that button (it's not an I win button anyway). The skill in playing this game from the PvP perspective is more about lining up your attacks, putting together a strong bar and having the situational awareness to know when your bar can win the day and when it cannot.

I think perhaps they need to just completely scrap the PvP as it stands now and start over. Let everyone create and customize an alliance soldier of their faction that is completely separate from their champion in the PvE realm. From that point they can create entirely new trees based on the classic archetypes of the classes as we know them in PvE but they would not be as tweakable as their PvE counterparts. THEN when there are balance issues, those changes don't have unintended consequences in the PvE realm and everyone gets a balanced PvP experience and we can all get back to arguing how skillful our three button presses are compared to the two button presses.

Blech. I'm not against the idea of PvP only characters, but take away the customization and I'm out. That's the whole reason to play an MMO over other types of multiplayer games, especially ones like ESO with open/limited skillbars- create the exact playstyle you enjoy. Better to have a PvP/PvE split for skill balance than kill the main thing this game has going for it.

That was sort of my point, as I read about "this is broken, that is broken" pleas on the forums it seems that is what many want but I can't say I agree.