Post 1.6 PVP Balancing Needed Badly

Cody

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

The only thing I have a problem with is Wrecking Blow being uninterruptable.

I say this as a Templar who sometimes plays two-handed. There was nothing wrong with the skill before: it did good damage and had the CC aspect. Sure, it is hard to land, but they over-corrected, and the fact that half the population of Cyrodiil is now using Two-Handers reveals the extent of the problem. Melee should out-damage ranged due to the inherent danger of being in melee... yet no skill should be uninterruptable. That is just broken.

WB is uninterruptable because you have to be almost directly in front of the player to use it. if it was interruptable, then it would be impossible to use against crushing shock, venom arrow, and shield bash users. I know this because this is how it was pre 1.6. I could not use uppercut at all against crushing shock users or venom arrow users. I had to dump it for DW.

Soris

Cody wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

The only thing I have a problem with is Wrecking Blow being uninterruptable.

I say this as a Templar who sometimes plays two-handed. There was nothing wrong with the skill before: it did good damage and had the CC aspect. Sure, it is hard to land, but they over-corrected, and the fact that half the population of Cyrodiil is now using Two-Handers reveals the extent of the problem. Melee should out-damage ranged due to the inherent danger of being in melee... yet no skill should be uninterruptable. That is just broken.

WB is uninterruptable because you have to be almost directly in front of the player to use it. if it was interruptable, then it would be impossible to use against crushing shock, venom arrow, and shield bash users. I know this because this is how it was pre 1.6. I could not use uppercut at all against crushing shock users or venom arrow users. I had to dump it for DW.

Umm it was the beuty of the skill that it requires some real skill to use it as your main dps. It wasn't for the kids and nannys that's for sure. Not only crushing shock but also everyone could interrupt you with bash. So you had to adjust your range by using the advantage of its 7 meter max range to stay outside of bash range. And stun the CS users/use immovable before you channel WB. It was indeed harder to use with all the LOS issues, longer cast time and being interruptable. Something like risk/gain issue.
Now it's just an easy mode win button. See the difference?

Soris

Makkir wrote: »

Soris_ESO wrote: »

Yes it's easy to counter only if you see that coming at non melee range. Most of the time you don't notice it in fights outside of 1v1 duels, since its animation is quite similar to lighting staff light attacks and there is no sound clue like snipe.

Situational Awareness. I don't think the game should cater to tunnel vision.

Situational awareness of course. However when someone spam the *** out to you with minimal effort,(left clicking at this point) dont you think the game catering them with such easy mode insta gib abilities?

Then what's the point being a skill based mmo game where eveyone can literallly 2 shot everything? It wasn't an Action FPS game when I start playing this.

tist

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

Welcome to Tamriel Unlimited Stamina!!!

Joy_Division

To the OP's points.

• Stop making stuff up. The number of people using two-handers is NOT more than half.
• One of the combat developers specifically said the dodge chance from something like the Hist-Bark set does not stack with the evasion buff. People are not dodging 100% of the stuff by "standing." As for roll-dodging, that's another story and I agree perma-dodge rolling is already an issue and hopefully ZoS will do something eventually because it will get worse as more people gain CPs and mimic this style.
• I do think the sorceror overload power is "balanced" awfully. It is utterly useless vs someone who can reflect or spam harness magicka and is stupidly powerful against those who can do neither.

AltusVenifus

I agree with the OP. Balance is a mess and I'm not saying this because I need to learn to play or even that certain classes have overpowering skills. I currently abuse these same mechanics...

block casting + shield stacking or (cloak / Bolt /some add dodgeroll, but personally don't see the issue with this ability) + resource regeneration + animation canceling while cc immune = superman... Not to mention certain classing abusing that formula also have super high damage...

IMO need to get rid of block casting + shield stacking
Nerf resource regen or increase ability costs
Decrease duration of CC immunity
Add a 50% miss chance to animation canceled attacks if followed by a ability within .5 seconds
Increase armor mitigation to cap at 55% damage reduction in heavy 30% in medium 20% in light
Change all shields to mitigate 30% of damage to a maximum cap of 55% for a certain damage number (i.e. 10k), make all sheilds based of magicka and all damage shields off stamina

steliosfenris

NERF SORCS....
thnx

tcgoetzub17_ESO

With my original post I was just calling for ZOS to do some balancing.

Here's my thought on some imbalances and how to fix them:

Block casting - blocking has a bigger stam cost when you block something. There should be a little stam cost to holding block. That way characters with low stam can't hold block for minutes at a time. They could, however, hold block for short periods of time. You need to hit them in the gaps between blocks.

Stam regen is too high - stam regen needs to be dialed back a bit. Thats the fix for infinite dodge rolling, etc. Is the new drinks the issue?

Magicka regen - same as stam regen - I think this is why sorcs can blink half way across the map and still nuke you down

nirn - is this how sorcs that have to be specced for regen (assuming they're speccced in regen based on how much they can blink, refresh shields, etc) can still nuke you down in three shots with overload light attacks?

meteor - not a balance issue per se, since I can block them as long as I have stam - but I swear every time I get major lag, I hear meteors

Ezareth

tcgoetzub17_ESO wrote: »

With my original post I was just calling for ZOS to do some balancing.

Here's my thought on some imbalances and how to fix them:

Block casting - blocking has a bigger stam cost when you block something. There should be a little stam cost to holding block. That way characters with low stam can't hold block for minutes at a time. They could, however, hold block for short periods of time. You need to hit them in the gaps between blocks.

Stam regen is too high - stam regen needs to be dialed back a bit. Thats the fix for infinite dodge rolling, etc. Is the new drinks the issue?

Magicka regen - same as stam regen - I think this is why sorcs can blink half way across the map and still nuke you down

nirn - is this how sorcs that have to be specced for regen (assuming they're speccced in regen based on how much they can blink, refresh shields, etc) can still nuke you down in three shots with overload light attacks?

meteor - not a balance issue per se, since I can block them as long as I have stam - but I swear every time I get major lag, I hear meteors

I dont think blocking is at all that powerful or unbalanced right now. I'm not really seeing many people exploiting block other than a couple of DK holdouts who do nothing other than hold block and they are easily ignored.

On the regen I agree, this is causing many of the issues with the game.

Nirnhoned is relatively garbage right now as you're not really able to pierce *any* level of spell resist to any great degree.

Sorcs are able to nuke you down with 3 overloads the same as any high damage ability(Lethal Arrow, Wrecking block, DK Heavy Staff attack, Boosted Crystal frags) can kill anyone in 3 (or less) hits if someone isn't engaging in any active defenses. Block, Dodge roll, Defensive Posture, Damage shields, Ball of Lightning, Eclipse all work very well again Power overload but chief among those is dodge roll.

Meteor - Out of all of these this is the weakest thing and players using meteor (unless they're exploiting the double reflect bug) are generally bad players. No balance necessary...it's an ultimate and a weak one at that.

k2blader

Your sorc complaint makes you seem like a poor player, at least versus sorcs, and especially if you main a sorc yourself. A sorc hitting you 3 times with overload for a total of 22k damage means each overload would've hit for an average of 7300, an entirely reasonable number compared to other damage numbers out there (10k+ for physical and bow abilities for starters). Dodge rolling totally screws overload-it's not even a contest-so why weren't you dodge rolling, or at least putting some defensive ability up?

If you were ganked off your horse or while standing idly in the open, so you got ganked by a sorc doing reasonable damage for his class- how does that warrant justification for "rebalance"? If you must cry about being ganked, why not keep it to that? Should classes be "rebalanced" any and every time you die and don't like it?

Rune_Relic

Ezareth wrote: »

tcgoetzub17_ESO wrote: »

With my original post I was just calling for ZOS to do some balancing.

Here's my thought on some imbalances and how to fix them:

Block casting - blocking has a bigger stam cost when you block something. There should be a little stam cost to holding block. That way characters with low stam can't hold block for minutes at a time. They could, however, hold block for short periods of time. You need to hit them in the gaps between blocks.

Stam regen is too high - stam regen needs to be dialed back a bit. Thats the fix for infinite dodge rolling, etc. Is the new drinks the issue?

Magicka regen - same as stam regen - I think this is why sorcs can blink half way across the map and still nuke you down

nirn - is this how sorcs that have to be specced for regen (assuming they're speccced in regen based on how much they can blink, refresh shields, etc) can still nuke you down in three shots with overload light attacks?

meteor - not a balance issue per se, since I can block them as long as I have stam - but I swear every time I get major lag, I hear meteors

I dont think blocking is at all that powerful or unbalanced right now. I'm not really seeing many people exploiting block other than a couple of DK holdouts who do nothing other than hold block and they are easily ignored.

On the regen I agree, this is causing many of the issues with the game.

Nirnhoned is relatively garbage right now as you're not really able to pierce *any* level of spell resist to any great degree.

Sorcs are able to nuke you down with 3 overloads the same as any high damage ability(Lethal Arrow, Wrecking block, DK Heavy Staff attack, Boosted Crystal frags) can kill anyone in 3 (or less) hits if someone isn't engaging in any active defenses. Block, Dodge roll, Defensive Posture, Damage shields, Ball of Lightning, Eclipse all work very well again Power overload but chief among those is dodge roll.

Meteor - Out of all of these this is the weakest thing and players using meteor (unless they're exploiting the double reflect bug) are generally bad players. No balance necessary...it's an ultimate and a weak one at that.

I don't think regen is the issue...its just revealed an issue that was already present.
Previoulsy regen for stam was useless and relied on burst to kill anything.
There was no such thing as stamina sustain.
So we needed higher weapon damage to get any kind of parity with the burst.
Now the stamina regen appears to have been improved but the bust damage potential and overall damage hasn't been scaled back to allow for the improved sustain.

Basically what I am saying is nerfing regen/sustain is just putting us back to the old stamina issues.
Reducing damage across the board is the way forward to allow good sustained damage rather than massive burst damage.
Not only would this increase the length of fight but reduce the chance of instagabs.

It was suggested to limit shield strength to health too above.
This would enable magicka based shields to also increase their life expectancy as the damge to them is dropped even though their shields have also dropped.

DaveMoeDee

This is an interesting discussion. The great shame is that rebalancing for PvP has to affect people focused on PvE.

technohic

You know what? I started typing up stuff that I have an issue with being balanced as it pertains to my templar compared to others, but maybe its just a matter of choice. You either chose to be a healer with mediocre magicka damage and maybe some tankiness depending on how you do it and what heals, or you give up the healing and can do some damage with a stam build just like everyone else can and where they have escapes, you can still heal a little bit without a staff. Of course a lot of people in your group will see templar and expect heals, but its about choices.

Cody

Soris_ESO wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

The only thing I have a problem with is Wrecking Blow being uninterruptable.

I say this as a Templar who sometimes plays two-handed. There was nothing wrong with the skill before: it did good damage and had the CC aspect. Sure, it is hard to land, but they over-corrected, and the fact that half the population of Cyrodiil is now using Two-Handers reveals the extent of the problem. Melee should out-damage ranged due to the inherent danger of being in melee... yet no skill should be uninterruptable. That is just broken.

WB is uninterruptable because you have to be almost directly in front of the player to use it. if it was interruptable, then it would be impossible to use against crushing shock, venom arrow, and shield bash users. I know this because this is how it was pre 1.6. I could not use uppercut at all against crushing shock users or venom arrow users. I had to dump it for DW.

Umm it was the beuty of the skill that it requires some real skill to use it as your main dps. It wasn't for the kids and nannys that's for sure. Not only crushing shock but also everyone could interrupt you with bash. So you had to adjust your range by using the advantage of its 7 meter max range to stay outside of bash range. And stun the CS users/use immovable before you channel WB. It was indeed harder to use with all the LOS issues, longer cast time and being interruptable. Something like risk/gain issue.
Now it's just an easy mode win button. See the difference?

it is not an easy win button, I constantly have my WBs dodged just by my enemies moving 5 meters to the right or left. it is easy as heck to dodge, the only "easy win" part, is that it sometimes hits players while they are roll dodging, which needs to be fixed. you have to get thru all the knockbacks, snares, bolt escapes, and all that crap, just to hit someone with it. That alone is risk enough.

you should have tried using it while it was interruptable; it was literally almost impossible to use. the crushing shock spam, the venom arrow spam, all that crap, made it almost impossible to use the ability. Now it is viable, and you want it made nonviable again? Well let me tell you what my view on it is; I do not think the skill should be made interruptable all because ranged players are complaining that a melee player is hitting them with hard hitting abilities(and lets be honest, most of the people complaining about it are ranged players) I have to get thru the snares your crushing shock hits me with(if YOU use it anyway; you may be a melee player for all i know; i am only providing examples) i have to get thru all the caltrops, i have to keep up with all the bolt escapes and the overloads and all that stuff; dang right I, as a melee player, should have a hard hitting ability that will knock you off your feet and deal a crap ton of damage to you if i can manage to land it. dang right it should be uninterruptable; you are ranged, your weakness is supposed to be close quarters.

Now if be you a melee player, then just block it or step 5 meters to the left or right. heck if you are DW you can hit the WB spammer with hidden blade or rending slashes(snares), and pummel the 2H with rapid strikes, dancing around them, while they consistently fail to land WBs on you.

if it were made interruptable, then the 2H line would literally become almost useless overnight, it only being used for the stamina based self heal and maybe the gap closer if the player was not using a class based gap closer.

If you want the skill nerfed, fine, but consider the consequences if it happens.

Soris

I've been using wrecking blow and 2h weapons exclusively since maybe october, before the 2h buff(rally etc) along with some other fellow stamina templars from EU server. So I know how it was ridiculously hard to land it on enemies in some situations like you said, I said.. We both aggre on this I guess.

However it was the benchmark that defines how skillful you are with it. You should know when to use it and when to not use it, how far you should stay when using it to prevent being bashed yadda yadda. And it was already too easy to avoid by moving in circles like now. It is not a new thing. People just realised now since everyone using it.

It offered the biggest prize by having bigger risks while also having longer cast time.
It is now indeed easy mode button because of this. And everyone using it, became masters of swords in one day.

edit: About DW example you said, that's a fair example tbh. Agree on that. But yet again, you should not spam WB like it's your only skill have in your bars.

I just want it became interrutable again, not nerfing the damage.(nerf having 4k weapon power if it's the case) And also maybe old animation if it's possible

cozmon3c_ESO

templars are the most susceptible to overlaod as its the only class that cannot absorb or reflect it or invis it.

Soris

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

templars are the most susceptible to overlaod as its the only class that cannot absorb or reflect it or invis it.

Actually templars can reflect it with Eclipse if it worked correctly. Though if it worked correctly, now the CC immunity gift from breaking free from Eclipse is problem

so *sigh*

cozmon3c_ESO

Soris_ESO wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

templars are the most susceptible to overlaod as its the only class that cannot absorb or reflect it or invis it.

Actually templars can reflect it with Eclipse if it worked correctly. Though if it worked correctly, now the CC immunity gift from breaking free from Eclipse is problem

so *sigh*

well there you go every class has a counter, i forgot about eclipse.

technohic

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Soris_ESO wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

templars are the most susceptible to overlaod as its the only class that cannot absorb or reflect it or invis it.

Actually templars can reflect it with Eclipse if it worked correctly. Though if it worked correctly, now the CC immunity gift from breaking free from Eclipse is problem

so *sigh*

well there you go every class has a counter, i forgot about eclipse.

Yeah, but eclipse is affected by CC immunity. All you have to do is not left click for a second then break free.

Soris

Yeah if you call that proper counter in its current state. Maybe ok after a fix

cozmon3c_ESO

technohic wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Soris_ESO wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

templars are the most susceptible to overlaod as its the only class that cannot absorb or reflect it or invis it.

Actually templars can reflect it with Eclipse if it worked correctly. Though if it worked correctly, now the CC immunity gift from breaking free from Eclipse is problem

so *sigh*

well there you go every class has a counter, i forgot about eclipse.

Yeah, but eclipse is affected by CC immunity. All you have to do is not left click for a second then break free.

eclipse, they cc break, roll dodge, sun shield, eclispe, attack or recover health whil they cc break, roll dodge, shield, eclipse, attack or recover.... rinse repeat forever till the over load is done.

Soris

And the other guy just clicks left mouse button while you doing all these. Lol

cozmon3c_ESO

Soris_ESO wrote: »

And the other guy just clicks left mouse button while you doing all these. Lol

he has to hit cc break lol, you have to go on defensive when overload is up, i go on defensive when i see it as well as a sorc. if you try and kill a sorc with out some form of defense going, your going to get owned by it.

Soris

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Soris_ESO wrote: »

And the other guy just clicks left mouse button while you doing all these. Lol

he has to hit cc break lol, you have to go on defensive when overload is up, i go on defensive when i see it as well as a sorc. if you try and kill a sorc with out some form of defense going, your going to get owned by it.

Hahaha yeah that's big skillz man. They have to press break free sometimes.

Like pew pew pew - reload - pew pew

cozmon3c_ESO

Soris_ESO wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Soris_ESO wrote: »

And the other guy just clicks left mouse button while you doing all these. Lol

he has to hit cc break lol, you have to go on defensive when overload is up, i go on defensive when i see it as well as a sorc. if you try and kill a sorc with out some form of defense going, your going to get owned by it.

Hahaha yeah that's big skillz man. They have to press break free sometimes.

Like pew pew pew - reload - pew pew

or its an ultimate and cant do it into infinitey, and lets be honest its easy as hell to counter it.

Soris

Yeah but that doesn't mean it should melt mountains.

It should however hit big but not big as half health of someone.

Tintinabula

Blocking...Its called "tanking"..and when you have 5 plus ppl focusing you its about all you can do until back up arrives...if they arrive.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Just wanna state my opinions.

PvP is better than it was then before that melee is a actual value now. How ever the reason every one running 2H now is cause of wrecking blow. That is one of the few skills that need looked at cause it's turning into what lethal arrow used to be a "I win button".

They do need to start doing campaign resets to stop the pvdooring and hopefully cut back on the night/day capping. They should have fixed this a long time ago but they need to look at wall sieges. You know where the attackers are on a wall like say Roe's mine side where they can siege but the defenders can't do anything to them cause the counter siege can't reach them.

Last part that comes to mind is they need to look at sorc. Cause right now there "the" class to be cause all a sorc has to do is spam crystal frags, mages wrath, and of course bolt escape and they can melt any one near them. Also the need to reduce the break free of fear even with high break free cost reduction skill it still somehow always needs 1/3 of the stamina bar.

Maudieu

I don't see the appeal about 2-handers, kill people just fine with dual-wield.

Zsymon

Regeneration is only a problem for one class/race combination, and that is Bosmer Werewolf Nightblades, everything combined they can stack about +140% stamina regen.

- 21% racial.
- 30% class.
- 15% werewolf.
- 20% potions.
- 28% armor.
- Champion points.

They don't have to sacrifice weapon damage because of that huge number, they don't need set bonuses to increase their regeneration if they use drinks. Their regen will be 3x higher than anything a caster can achieve. Magicka regeneration isn't a problem, because the only way to stack it is from set bonuses, sacrificing spell damage. If a Sorcerer is constantly streaking and renewing his shields, or a Nightblade constantly using Dark Cloak, it means he'll have no spell damage. The problem with Sorcerers is more their overpowered skills, rather than magicka regeneration.