Harrassment Already A Larger Problem

nerevarine1138

MornaBaine wrote: »

Craorach wrote: »

I can see a few problems with the idea of removing them from the game world.

Prime example, what if you got invited to a group with them in, or they to a group you were in, for a Dungeon or something?

Then it would be like it is now when one of your party members is out of phase with you. All you would see is the arrow marking where they should be. So then you would have the option to un-ignore them or, if you were adamant about not playing with them, leaving the group.

And their spell effects? Would they do anything to you?

As nice as this idea sounds in some weird utopia where you would never run the risk of needing to interact with other characters, there's a myriad of technical problems.

newtinmpls

Maybe you could have this be folded into the generic "you are out of phase" problem, and then you hit agree or whatever it is you to now to get "together" with a group in the regular game.

Then if you find out they are being a poop, you hit 'ignore' again and it drops you out of the group (and if its a delve or undaunted or something) out to the 'doorway' of the area.

MrGhosty

While people interfering with other's gameplay is certainly annoying, I wouldn't be okay with the idea of having someone removed from an area for doing as they please. That sort of reaction could then be applied further into other areas, what happens when pink armor or nords in wedding dresses disturb your gameplay? What if it disturbs your gameplay when someone comes in and ruins your grind intentionally? I do wish there would be a way to put someone on ignore and then re-zone to have a world free of their influence but sadly I don't think this shall come to pass.

What I might recommend is to hold special events in Vet zones, there are some issues with the cross factioning I know but these vet zones remain largely unused and are quite peaceful.

I do fully support, and wish they would implement a guild housing/player housing system that could provide ample environment space for personal use as a means of getting away from those that annoy. I also see no reason why they couldn't make one of the guild housing instance option a "roleplayers stage" that would allow the GM to tweak and change an environment on a regular basis to allow for many different settings for important roleplay.

The only other thing I can think of is to make those trying to troll the event into unwilling participants "All eyes were pointed downward as the adventurers mourned the passing of their beloved comrade, except for the town fool who believed this was a suitable time to disrobe and express himself through interpretative dance." Yes it may change the poinancy of the mood you were striving for, but I have found more often than not if you just make the trolls really uncomfortable or perhaps present the idea they're actually involved they will leave. In some cases they might enjoy it so much you will have converted them and gained a new roleplaying ally.

Sorry to hear of your troubles though OP, feel free to drop me a message as I do a fair bit of location scouting and might be able to help until we get some official responses.

Jeremy

MornaBaine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

.

phreatophile wrote: »

The thinly veiled contempt for role-players shown by most of the people defending this behavior is the problem.

All that is being asked for here is a mechanism to avoid griefers entirely. Without that, all you need do if RP annoys you is nothing. The Role-players simply wish to be left alone. But that's the point, isn't it. You know there's not a thing they can do about it. If they just put up with it, you've ruined their ability to have a fun event: Troll wins. If they report you, ZOS will do nothing and you've still ruined their evening: Troll wins. If the roleplayers snap and get into a chat confrontation, you've still ruined their fun: Troll wins. You can wrestle a pig, but you both get dirty and the pig likes it. People that get off on hurting others are bad people, especially when they search out people who have no means to defend themselves.

Pretending that the behavior in question is just somebody playing the game how they wish and the RPers happen to be there in the wrong place at the wrong time is dishonest at best.

Again, you think you're better than those nerdy role-players, so you grief them. This is an action on your part. For any sense of moral equivalence you need to simply ignore them and move on. Those role-players aren't doing anything to you but you get in their face anyway.

The OP's event was held in group chat, and they only started reacting with reports once the griefing started. Passive then reactive.

The griefers saw a likely target and set about to offend them with action and written word in chat. Active

These are not the same thing. There is no equivalence, so stop pretending there is.

MornaBaine wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You're having an RP event. Good for you. That doesn't mean that everyone passing through has to take part in a way that you find appropriate. And the standards you apply to it are exactly why the GMs shouldn't be enforcing rules on character behavior unless it actually crosses the line in to griefing.

So how does sticking around, dancing naked, pushing through the same group of the same people and spamming zone chat with abusive language for an hour real-time NOT constitute greifing?

Standing around, dancing naked, and being in the same area as people having a roleplay session doesn't constitute griefing.

Abusive chat does constitute trolling. And they already punish that.

That (the abusive chat) was going on as well as the offender constantly swinging his weapons at us along with the dancing and spamming spells. So, you still think that wasn't deliberate and actionable griefing?

As I said on the first page of this thread: the abusive chat is absolutely something he should be actioned for.

Swinging his weapons around, dancing, and using abilities? Without the accompanying abusive chat, it's not something that anyone should be hoping a GM punishes him for.

Why not? His intent to disrupt and irritate other players was absolutely clear. If he had been following me around doing this while I quested I would have reported him for it as well. Just as the people who mobbed the dye stations when they first released and spammed spells so that people could not use them were reported and eventually dealt with. If some freak in real life followed me around acting like he was stabbing me, dancing and only wearing his underwear, you can bet I'd be calling the cops! LOL

So you think ZOS has a responsibility to make sure other players do not irritate you? Is that basically what you are saying?

I am saying ZOS has the responsibility to enable tools useable by ALL players so that we can make sure other players do not deliberately and with malice aforethought ruin our leisure time.

I also see you are unable to come up with a personal example of a roleplayer having ruined or impeded your game experience. If you can't back up the very argument you presented then you really have nothing to contribute to the discussion.

I would be fine with them giving you the tools to make other players vanish as I said.

There has been many instances where other players have annoyed/irritated me on this game and many others. Rather or not you would consider them role players or engaged in some roleplaying event is irrelevant.

For example: I've had numerous players dance around me in their underwear and talk trash. It never even occurred to me that I should call a GM over it. I've seen entire guilds dancing in their panties before inside the bank and talking nonsense. I've had bare chested nords and cat people attempt to make out with me in the rift.

I think the real issue here in this thread is that people who consider themselves role players for what ever reason believe that being a role player gives them some special privilege not to be disturbed. That's what I'm trying to highlight.

And you would be wrong. Plain and simple. No one is asking for special privileges because we think we're entitled to them by virtue of being roleplayers. We are asking for tools that would make a better player experience for everyone. Including the people who don't like roleplayers and don't want to see them. I'm not quite sure why you have a problem with that.

I don't have a problem with that.

I've already said multiple times in this thread that I don't have any issue with your idea to add tools that would allow you to ignore and disappear other players who offend you.

What I have a problem with is disciplining players or banning them because their emotes might offend someone. That's not an area I'm comfortable with the GMs acting.

phreatophile

phreatophile wrote: »

Because they enjoy harassing people.

istateres wrote: »

But that's the beauty, they would STILL be harassing people; only the people would have an off button. The only way to argue againat this is to claim your game play requires that you be seen by all players, even if they don't want to see you. (i.e. trolls have rights superior to the rights of the trolled).

Preaching to the choir with me, I love the idea of the trolls dancing away with their abusive chat and their targets not even seeing it.

Jeremy

farrier_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If you had ever actually been physically bullied by someone before: you would know how ridiculous it is to try and compare that to watching a video game elf dance in their underwear. They aren't even in the same universe.

Thankfully, cyberbullying is now recognized in most states and civilized countries as a serious offense.

From a game-design point of view, the best place to start reading on in game harassment is probably Julian Dibell's "A *** in Cyberspace" (1993), which is a decently short article, quite famous in the game-design world, and considered one of the must-reads for both multiplayer game designers and community managers.

http://www.juliandibbell.com/articles/a-rape-in-cyberspace/

Well worth reading even for players.

A video game character dancing in their underwear is not a good example of cyber bullying.

Most cases of prosecuted Cyber Bullying usually has some attachment to reality - where someone uses the internet to threaten or harass an individual that they know in real life. A judge would laugh this case out of court if it was attempted.

MornaBaine

Jeremy wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

.

phreatophile wrote: »

The thinly veiled contempt for role-players shown by most of the people defending this behavior is the problem.

All that is being asked for here is a mechanism to avoid griefers entirely. Without that, all you need do if RP annoys you is nothing. The Role-players simply wish to be left alone. But that's the point, isn't it. You know there's not a thing they can do about it. If they just put up with it, you've ruined their ability to have a fun event: Troll wins. If they report you, ZOS will do nothing and you've still ruined their evening: Troll wins. If the roleplayers snap and get into a chat confrontation, you've still ruined their fun: Troll wins. You can wrestle a pig, but you both get dirty and the pig likes it. People that get off on hurting others are bad people, especially when they search out people who have no means to defend themselves.

Pretending that the behavior in question is just somebody playing the game how they wish and the RPers happen to be there in the wrong place at the wrong time is dishonest at best.

Again, you think you're better than those nerdy role-players, so you grief them. This is an action on your part. For any sense of moral equivalence you need to simply ignore them and move on. Those role-players aren't doing anything to you but you get in their face anyway.

The OP's event was held in group chat, and they only started reacting with reports once the griefing started. Passive then reactive.

The griefers saw a likely target and set about to offend them with action and written word in chat. Active

These are not the same thing. There is no equivalence, so stop pretending there is.

MornaBaine wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You're having an RP event. Good for you. That doesn't mean that everyone passing through has to take part in a way that you find appropriate. And the standards you apply to it are exactly why the GMs shouldn't be enforcing rules on character behavior unless it actually crosses the line in to griefing.

So how does sticking around, dancing naked, pushing through the same group of the same people and spamming zone chat with abusive language for an hour real-time NOT constitute greifing?

Standing around, dancing naked, and being in the same area as people having a roleplay session doesn't constitute griefing.

Abusive chat does constitute trolling. And they already punish that.

That (the abusive chat) was going on as well as the offender constantly swinging his weapons at us along with the dancing and spamming spells. So, you still think that wasn't deliberate and actionable griefing?

As I said on the first page of this thread: the abusive chat is absolutely something he should be actioned for.

Swinging his weapons around, dancing, and using abilities? Without the accompanying abusive chat, it's not something that anyone should be hoping a GM punishes him for.

Why not? His intent to disrupt and irritate other players was absolutely clear. If he had been following me around doing this while I quested I would have reported him for it as well. Just as the people who mobbed the dye stations when they first released and spammed spells so that people could not use them were reported and eventually dealt with. If some freak in real life followed me around acting like he was stabbing me, dancing and only wearing his underwear, you can bet I'd be calling the cops! LOL

So you think ZOS has a responsibility to make sure other players do not irritate you? Is that basically what you are saying?

I am saying ZOS has the responsibility to enable tools useable by ALL players so that we can make sure other players do not deliberately and with malice aforethought ruin our leisure time.

I also see you are unable to come up with a personal example of a roleplayer having ruined or impeded your game experience. If you can't back up the very argument you presented then you really have nothing to contribute to the discussion.

I would be fine with them giving you the tools to make other players vanish as I said.

There has been many instances where other players have annoyed/irritated me on this game and many others. Rather or not you would consider them role players or engaged in some roleplaying event is irrelevant.

For example: I've had numerous players dance around me in their underwear and talk trash. It never even occurred to me that I should call a GM over it. I've seen entire guilds dancing in their panties before inside the bank and talking nonsense. I've had bare chested nords and cat people attempt to make out with me in the rift.

I think the real issue here in this thread is that people who consider themselves role players for what ever reason believe that being a role player gives them some special privilege not to be disturbed. That's what I'm trying to highlight.

And you would be wrong. Plain and simple. No one is asking for special privileges because we think we're entitled to them by virtue of being roleplayers. We are asking for tools that would make a better player experience for everyone. Including the people who don't like roleplayers and don't want to see them. I'm not quite sure why you have a problem with that.

I don't have a problem with that.

I've already said multiple times in this thread that I don't have any issue with your idea to add tools that would allow you to ignore and disappear other players who offend you.

What I have a problem with is disciplining players or banning them because their emotes might offend someone. That's not an area I'm comfortable with the GMs acting.

Well they already do and you, along with the rest of us, already agree they have every right to do so merely by playing this game. So feel free to advocate with us to get player tools in place so players can deal with it themselves so the GMs don't have to.

MornaBaine

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Craorach wrote: »

I can see a few problems with the idea of removing them from the game world.

Prime example, what if you got invited to a group with them in, or they to a group you were in, for a Dungeon or something?

Then it would be like it is now when one of your party members is out of phase with you. All you would see is the arrow marking where they should be. So then you would have the option to un-ignore them or, if you were adamant about not playing with them, leaving the group.

And their spell effects? Would they do anything to you?

As nice as this idea sounds in some weird utopia where you would never run the risk of needing to interact with other characters, there's a myriad of technical problems.

No, there are POTENTIAL technical problems. Only ZOS can tell us if these problems are insurmountable. Until they have done so it's perfectly fair to ask them to investigate this avenue. And as newtinmpls points out,

newtinmpls
newtinmpls
✭✭✭✭
Maybe you could have this be folded into the generic "you are out of phase" problem, and then you hit agree or whatever it is you to now to get "together" with a group in the regular game.

Then if you find out they are being a poop, you hit 'ignore' again and it drops you out of the group (and if its a delve or undaunted or something) out to the 'doorway' of the area.

it looks as if there might be a simple solution to hand already. Again, only the Devs know for sure.

istateres

Jeremy wrote: »

farrier_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If you had ever actually been physically bullied by someone before: you would know how ridiculous it is to try and compare that to watching a video game elf dance in their underwear. They aren't even in the same universe.

Thankfully, cyberbullying is now recognized in most states and civilized countries as a serious offense.

From a game-design point of view, the best place to start reading on in game harassment is probably Julian Dibell's "A *** in Cyberspace" (1993), which is a decently short article, quite famous in the game-design world, and considered one of the must-reads for both multiplayer game designers and community managers.

http://www.juliandibbell.com/articles/a-rape-in-cyberspace/

Well worth reading even for players.

A video game character dancing in their underwear is not a good example of cyber bullying.

Most cases of prosecuted Cyber Bullying usually has some attachment to reality - where someone uses the internet to threaten or harass an individual that they know in real life. A judge would laugh this case out of court if it was attempted.

Sure, but we're not trying to prosecute anyone. We want to ban them from OUR world, to stop their visual harassment. This is just an extention of the chat ability, where you can prevenet comments for certain indivivuals from appearing in your chat. They and all their effects on the world would be invisible to us.

istateres

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Craorach wrote: »

I can see a few problems with the idea of removing them from the game world.

Prime example, what if you got invited to a group with them in, or they to a group you were in, for a Dungeon or something?

Then it would be like it is now when one of your party members is out of phase with you. All you would see is the arrow marking where they should be. So then you would have the option to un-ignore them or, if you were adamant about not playing with them, leaving the group.

And their spell effects? Would they do anything to you?

As nice as this idea sounds in some weird utopia where you would never run the risk of needing to interact with other characters, there's a myriad of technical problems.

No, there aren't. This is a visual ban only. We don't see anything they do. Not them, not their spells, etc. The effect on the world of these characters is unchanged. If they loot a chest, it's still looted. I just don't see them do it. If I'm fighting a guard, and they cast a heal on me. I don't see them or the spell, but the effects are applied and their bounty goes up. If they are in the bank with me, their pet and spells are invisible to me, so now I can see clearly

This isn't a blanket ban of ALL characters, only those (as with chat) that you choose to NOT interact with. There will still be 1000's of other characters to interact with.

I'm not saying this is eay, but it is doable, and valuable.

MornaBaine

I have added the following to the OP:

There is nothing "fictional" about players harassing and cyber-bullying other players. Nor are the players engaging in that kind of disruptive and oftentimes outright hateful behavior in any way engaging in roleplaying. Further, while roleplayers are OFTEN victims of such player harassment, the fact remains that these "bad actors" do not "just" confine themselves to hunting down RP events to grief but often engage in harassment of other players in many other contexts as well. This post is NOT about roleplaying. It IS about player harassment and the request for ZOS to provide ALL players with the tools to deal with this on their own rather than relying on GMs who are being rendered ineffectual due to being stretched too thin.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Discussing Moderated Content]

MornaBaine

istateres wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Craorach wrote: »

I can see a few problems with the idea of removing them from the game world.

Prime example, what if you got invited to a group with them in, or they to a group you were in, for a Dungeon or something?

Then it would be like it is now when one of your party members is out of phase with you. All you would see is the arrow marking where they should be. So then you would have the option to un-ignore them or, if you were adamant about not playing with them, leaving the group.

And their spell effects? Would they do anything to you?

As nice as this idea sounds in some weird utopia where you would never run the risk of needing to interact with other characters, there's a myriad of technical problems.

No, there aren't. This is a visual ban only. We don't see anything they do. Not them, not their spells, etc. The effect on the world of these characters is unchanged. If they loot a chest, it's still looted. I just don't see them do it. If I'm fighting a guard, and they cast a heal on me. I don't see them or the spell, but the effects are applied and their bounty goes up. If they are in the bank with me, their pet and spells are invisible to me, so now I can see clearly

This isn't a blanket ban of ALL characters, only those (as with chat) that you choose to NOT interact with. There will still be 1000's of other characters to interact with.

I'm not saying this is eay, but it is doable, and valuable.

This right here. ^^ One does not have to remove the character to the point where they are not able to loot chests or otherwise play the game. I am totally willing to live with the fact that once in awhile I'll see mobs dying to an "invisible" player. Doesn't bother me at all.

ServerusEcru

timidobserver wrote: »

If someone sends offensive messages that needs to be stopped immediately, but im not in support of policing where players can stand and what they can wear.

The offense occurred when he called her game "ridiculous" and "stupid", and bragged about how he loved to do this to roleplayers (which means he has a history of bullying). He decided to dance naked continuing to taunt her group and encourage his friends to partake in this harassment. It is not about standing and wearing, but it is about taking this liberty upon yourself to intentionally ruin someone else's experience. It is a correlation of hate: because you don't understand something and you think it is stupid; you decide it is better if you destroy it. No, this can not happen. Last I checked it was called an MMORPG, which means Roleplaying is just as much a part of this online gaming experience as PVE and PVP.

ZOS_MollyH

Greetings, all. Several comments in this thread have been edited or removed for violating The Elder Scrolls Online Forum Code of Conduct.

We understand that sometimes tempers rise, but it is never acceptable to resort to rude comments and insults. This goes for rude comments and insults directed at other community members, and ZeniMax Online Studios employees alike.

Please understand that our goal is to create a fun, welcoming, and safe environment for The Elder Scrolls Online community.We encourage everyone to read our Code of Conduct in order to understand what behavior is expected on the forums. This will help alleviate future moderation actions.

MornaBaine

Keron wrote: »

ZOS_AlexD wrote: »

We're moving this thread to the Fiction and Roleplaying section as it is more fitting than the General Discussion area.

For what it's worth, I'll add in my vote to move the thread back to General. This place was just chosen to sink this topic in a corner of the forum that is not frequented by the "second side of the discussion", so to speak. I myself only found it from the "Participated"-view.

Reconsider your decision. It is not RP if we talk about rude behaviour ingame.

I would like to write more about my feelings and impressions regarding this "move topic"-decision, but that would be neither helpful nor appropriate for the topic of this conversation.

I have been in email discussions about the moving of this thread and have been told it will NOT be moved back to general discussion. The reasons given for this are "interesting" to say the least. I have asked for permission to share that exchange here and am awaiting a reply. I feel like the rest of you have a right to know. If I am denied the request that will be telling.

Keron

Whatever the reason, this thread is sunk. It will not show as "has new post" anymore. I only noticed your new post because it popped at the top of my participated list, but as "have already read everything in here".

ZOS_AmeliaR

So that everyone is on the same page here, we'd like to explain why we moved this thread to the RP section. In short, we moved the thread so that the discussion could continue without the thread needing to be closed. This move was never an attempt to hide any alleged offenses, as we take reports of harassment very seriously. That being said, leaving this thread in General Discussion would have had it continue to receive rude and inflammatory comments, resulting in further moderation and an ultimate closure of the thread. Instead, we opted to move the discussion to a less active but still relevant forum (the thread was about harassment against roleplayers), so that the discussion could continue. We'd also like to point out that we have not sunk this thread.

All this being said, this thread has veered off-topic into a discussion of moderation. If the thread is to continue, we ask that it be about the original topic so that it can remain open. If the discussion continues to derail into a different discussion, we'll have to close the thread altogether. Thank you for understanding.

Rune_Relic

Oh the irony of moving a thread about harassment because of harassment to save on excessive ZOS admin work (moderation).
/facepalm.

On topic. No wait...that is on topic....
This thread was about harassment in general and not solely RP harassment.
Specifically the concept of being able to ignore people visually as well as verbally when being griefed or trolled so that ZOS admin does not need to get involved and can concentrate on other work [see the remarkable on topic irony here].
So as far as I am concerned ZOS is simply wrong on this (please read the whole thread) and I plead with you to reconsider.
Everyone gets griefed/trolled from time to time...not just role players.
The fact an example was given from a role players perspective is neither here nor there.
This is not a "role player" only issue.
I have never been a role player in any guild.

I must say I am completely stunned at ZOS explanation why and the action taken.
You have supported those who were griefing (ie rude and inflammatory comments) and punished those who were being griefed by removing it from general (where it belonged as griefing affects everyone) and placed it where only roleplayers would respond and see it.
I am at a total loss to understand this.
Seriously if this is ZOS idea of "fair and just" moderation than please ban me for challenging you as per code of conduct.
I'll accept it gladly on principal alone.

Harva

Well I suppose what it comes down to is we just need to keep reporting players that are harassing not just roleplayers but even other players in public chat and cyrodil since I have observed a lot of very rude things outside of roleplay.

I've even ran into other players when I haven't been roleplaying that will grief enemies away from you with that Dragon knight attack that chains them away, they do it constantly so it prevents players from getting a hit in if they happen to one hit it immediately after ganking it from your grasp.

Another stupid occurance happens around bosses and anchors. There have been quite a few times where I have completed a boss or anchor and I step away to sort through items or decide where to go next and out of nowhere some player will come up and circle around me either fully naked or in gear and spamming area effect attacks, or using commands that make their character as loud and noticeable as possible. It's extremely rude if you ask me.

My first instance of this was in Glenumbra's swamp, I completed the anchor in this area and a naked argonian started to run circles around me while blocking constantly so they kept making the "Huah, Huh, Grah" sounds, over and over again! When I ran off to a different area they followed me using the electric jumping/teleporting skill which sounds really annoying when it's used repetitively. I got fed up with him and tried blocking him in hopes that maybe that would make him disappear, which sadly it didnt... So I had to deal with him harassing my character for well near half an hour.

I came from playing GW2 for a few years before ESO came out and even that game has the feature of making players disappear if you add them to block or ignore lists and it doesn't seem to affect the game at all. I never saw random mobs dying or weird things like that. I don't know how they made it work but it's a really nice feature for rpers and non-rpers alike.

The most recent instance of rp harassment that has happened in the last month was in cyrodil. Some military roleplay guild was roleplaying while taking a keep, some members chose to talk in group to keep track of things and avoid harassment, but a few others chose to roleplay in public chat so as to possibly attract other roleplayers. Sadly other roleplayers didn't show up, but someone in our faction that was leading a raid decided to take time from leading to stand around and harass our roleplayers while using the goblin disguise, hoping around and using block over and over again in order to make annoying noises, running circles and figure eights around participants. They even went as far as typing things in chat to mock us, honestly it was pretty sad on their part since they were using text speak to attempt making fun of us... It was really sad at that point. I was largely irked that they decided they had nothing better to do than embarassing themselves by harassing roleplayers.

That seems to be my biggest problem with harassment towards roleplayers in most mmo's I don't understand why someone thinks it's more fun to get on a game and troll other players and make their experience awful. That just blows my mind! They have to be children or adults that don't know any better, are not disciplined or socially inept. It's so mind boggling that it becomes infuriating.

I really hope there will be something in the near future that allows blocked and ignored players to disappear from your area so those of us that want to enjoy the game free of trolls may do so.

Until then, at least now I know how seriously ZOS takes harassment so things I find rude and annoying that happen during roleplay or just wandering the game can be reported. As it stands, it's pretty unclear what counts as something that should or shouldn't be reported when there is a warning about abuse of the report option in game. This has sort of cleared up that confusion, for me anyway.

Krist

This being moved to the rp thread makes COMPLETE SENSE. It is rp that is being harassed, not general play. A good discussion on fixes among the rp community is better than a general thread with people simply not caring about the outcome, but wanting to put their two cents in. Obviously the discussion is being followed, so flaming the staff is pointless an unproductive.

I think there have been some great ideas from all sides, and the general discussion of the thread has been pretty well presented, minus the ones I guess the staff had to remove.

xMovingTarget

Sometimes , when I come across a rp grp, I run past(out of sight), put my seadrake disguise on and walk back to them. I like to listen to them. I find it fun sometimes.
And by all means, I am no rp'er. But I don't wanna disturb them either.

Don't judge me!

MornaBaine

Krist wrote: »

This being moved to the rp thread makes COMPLETE SENSE. It is rp that is being harassed, not general play. A good discussion on fixes among the rp community is better than a general thread with people simply not caring about the outcome, but wanting to put their two cents in. Obviously the discussion is being followed, so flaming the staff is pointless an unproductive.

I think there have been some great ideas from all sides, and the general discussion of the thread has been pretty well presented, minus the ones I guess the staff had to remove.

The person above you just gave examples of being trolled while not roleplaying. I've had that happen several times before as well when I was NOT engaged in roleplaying. The reason so many people are upset about this topic being moved to the roleplay section is precisely because harassment happens to ALL players, NOT just roleplayers. Pretending otherwise is disingenuous at best and reflects poorly on the company.

MornaBaine

Found this interesting and relevant article: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/111186/AGDC_The_Psychology_Of_MMO_Players_Community_Managers_Psychologists_Speak.php

The section on griefing was particularly interesting. It begins, "Of course, griefing -- or intentionally disrupting and degrading another user's gameplay experience -- is a major problem in MMOs. "

This, from an article written clear back in 2008. Yet it seems pretty clear that the gaming industry itself has learned virtually nothing since the "best" most of them will still bother to do is give you an option to ignore chat only. Now ZOS SAYS they take player harassment seriously and that they "encourage" people to report players they feel are harassing them. But when you already KNOW that there's no way a GM will be able to deal with the situation in a timely manner and STOP it AS IT IS HAPPENING, and of course even when they do respond we are never allowed to know if our harassers ARE being disciplined in any way, how does that in any way really help players or motivate them to report in the first place? The truth is, MOST people just give up. Which seems (it may not BE but certainly FEELS like it) to be exactly what the powers that be here want.

Wrathmane

MrGhosty wrote: »

The only other thing I can think of is to make those trying to troll the event into unwilling participants "All eyes were pointed downward as the adventurers mourned the passing of their beloved comrade, except for the town fool who believed this was a suitable time to disrobe and express himself through interpretative dance." Yes it may change the poinancy of the mood you were striving for, but I have found more often than not if you just make the trolls really uncomfortable or perhaps present the idea they're actually involved they will leave. In some cases they might enjoy it so much you will have converted them and gained a new roleplaying ally.

Does this work........ this is really funny and its turning it right around on the troll itself. You'd have to be pretty quick on your feet because I imagine he would try everything he could to annoy you, but making him part of the event... priceless. I don't RP myself but to each his/her own, your RPing really dosen't effect me, in fact I've respectfully stood back and watched at times before moving on, and I really hope they figure out some way of removing the garbage from the game.

Varicite

You know, I'm curious about this now that the console is in beta.

As there is no chat box in the console version of the game and players are forced to use voice chat for communications, is there any sort of official policy for offenses or derogatory remarks made through voice chat that would normally be against the TOS?

There isn't really any way to document these types of offenses w/ the lack of evidence provided by chatboxes and screenshots.

Will ZOS have any methodology in place for dealing w/ these types of complaints, or will players be instead urged to go through the "normal" channels provided by XBL and PSN, which may not coincide w/ the practices that are normally upheld by ESO's customer service?

phreatophile

MornaBaine wrote: »

Found this interesting and relevant article: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/111186/AGDC_The_Psychology_Of_MMO_Players_Community_Managers_Psychologists_Speak.php

The section on griefing was particularly interesting. It begins, "Of course, griefing -- or intentionally disrupting and degrading another user's gameplay experience -- is a major problem in MMOs. "

This, from an article written clear back in 2008. Yet it seems pretty clear that the gaming industry itself has learned virtually nothing since the "best" most of them will still bother to do is give you an option to ignore chat only. Now ZOS SAYS they take player harassment seriously and that they "encourage" people to report players they feel are harassing them. But when you already KNOW that there's no way a GM will be able to deal with the situation in a timely manner and STOP it AS IT IS HAPPENING, and of course even when they do respond we are never allowed to know if our harassers ARE being disciplined in any way, how does that in any way really help players or motivate them to report in the first place? The truth is, MOST people just give up. Which seems (it may not BE but certainly FEELS like it) to be exactly what the powers that be here want.

Great Article. There is a link to another article in the first comment that is just as, if not more germaine to the topic. I'd post the link, but there's NSFW words in the title, and I suspect that could lead to moderation. It's mostly about how it's on the developers to try and create a social enviroment where certain behavior is unacceptable. One example given is:

In real life, people are capable of an incredibly wide variety of behaviors. People go to a bar on Saturday night and church on Sunday morning and manage not to get kicked out of either. How? They don't sing hymns and pray while at the bar, and don't smoke and drink during the sermon.

Different social settings have different expectations but are often merciless in enforcing them. A griefer will feel free to grief as long as he/she has no reasonable fear of punishment. Ideally there is a way to create that fear and thereby good behavior. I think Morna mentioned another game where you could basicly take out a hit on a bad apple, that's one way. Neither that, nor anything even remotely like that is available in ESO. We are left with GM's as the only response.

In game as in life, the jerks are the minority, but they are a minority that carves out an outsized place for themselves in a game world. They turn huge numbers of people away from online gaming, so it is in a game company's interest to find ways to shrink their effect. Using phasing to remove them from their targets is an example not mentioned in the article but very much in the spirit of the author's recommendations.

The most efficient method will always be GM action because systems can't use good judgement but people can. It all comes back to the developers deciding what kind of community they wish to have, and being willing do do something about the riff raff when they get too noisy.

Rojnaar

I'm not into RP, and likely never will be. With such stringent population caps, an RP event in Cyrodiil that isn't directly related to the taking or defending of keeps or strategic targets would result in a thorough trouncing against overwhelming odds, thereby ruining experience those who aren't RP'ing. It fosters a dislike, which evolves into a hatred between both sides of the isle, ruining the gaming experience for all. And you can bet that hatred will extend outside of Cyrodiil, to any vet or non-vet zone.

With this game's setup, I don't think 'visually' blocking someone is able to happen. But what ZOS can do, and it shouldn't be that difficult, is to create a new Cyrodiil campaign, specifically labeled (RP only). That would calm down a lot of the hatred, let it diffuse in some people. That would also give ZOS a tighter grip on disciplinary action against those who seek to disturb your RP events in and out of Cyrodiil. I'll stop now before I drone on too long.

MornaBaine

Rojnaar wrote: »

I'm not into RP, and likely never will be. With such stringent population caps, an RP event in Cyrodiil that isn't directly related to the taking or defending of keeps or strategic targets would result in a thorough trouncing against overwhelming odds, thereby ruining experience those who aren't RP'ing. It fosters a dislike, which evolves into a hatred between both sides of the isle, ruining the gaming experience for all. And you can bet that hatred will extend outside of Cyrodiil, to any vet or non-vet zone.

With this game's setup, I don't think 'visually' blocking someone is able to happen. But what ZOS can do, and it shouldn't be that difficult, is to create a new Cyrodiil campaign, specifically labeled (RP only). That would calm down a lot of the hatred, let it diffuse in some people. That would also give ZOS a tighter grip on disciplinary action against those who seek to disturb your RP events in and out of Cyrodiil. I'll stop now before I drone on too long.

I would love to see an RP version of Cyrodiil to be honest. But I sincerely doubt RPers are out there in sufficient numbers to wreck the game experience of the "hardcore PvPers". What about people who are out there to do the PvE content, of which there is a great deal? I enjoy doing that content precisely because of the possibility of PvP. If they WERE to do a RP PvP version of Cyrodiil I would love to see them make it open world PvP instead of factional. I really hate not being able to fight people in my own faction! There needs to be SOMEWHERE where that can happen!

The visual blocking I am advocating for would probably not be something that could be used in Cyrodiil but it would certainly be do-able in all the PvE zones which is where most of the griefing happens anyway.

Bulregar

Now I am new to ESO - really new, I've yet to buy the game on steam, but I have been roleplaying for a long, long time. Mostly in World of Warcraft and surprisingly Masquerade. On Roleplay servers there's nothing really wrong with Roleplaying - in fact if you're not roleplaying on the server, you're gonna have a bad time. But from what it sounds like, there are no dedicated Roleplaying servers. Why is that?

istateres

Rojnaar wrote: »

With this game's setup, I don't think 'visually' blocking someone is able to happen.

Maybe you weren't around in Beta and early release. This was a common "bug" where your buddy would be invisible to you. I feel confident that this is 100% doable in the current game.

An RP only Cyrodiil does not address the problem! That would not stop abusive players from coming to that server to abuse the RPs.

Further, this isn't an RP problem, this is a game wide problem. There will always be abusive players. Thats why we have chat block. We need an on-screen block as well to decrease the ability of individuals to ruin others gameplay.