Harrassment Already A Larger Problem

MornaBaine

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Plenty of people in this thread (yourself included, it seems) want the GMs to be regulating this kind of behavior, which I see as extremely problematic.

There are mechanical issues introduced by making ignored players disappear in the game world, but those have already been brought up (and ignored) in this thread enough.

So what is your solution to this problem? Usually I agree with a fair amount of what you say, but this time you seem to be against GM involvement and against using phasing to remove people... so how would you prefer to see this situation resolved?

I'm not against the idea of ignore-phasing in principle, but I don't see how it works on a more practical level. How is PvP in Cyrodiil dealt with? What about the upcoming PvP side of the Justice System?

There would have to be exceptions within the ignore-phasing, and I see a lot of room for problems there. More importantly, I don't think that people dancing in their underwear merits such strong measures. If you find it annoying, fine. I'm not saying that feeling isn't valid. But that's what willpower is for.

You keep pretending that it was "just" that there were "people dancing in their underwear." It's been explained repeatedly that it was MUCH MORE than that in the initial incident that prompted this thread in the first place.

That you do not see how "ignore phasing" might work on a practical level does not in any way mean that the idea should not be investigated further. Only the devs at ZOS have any idea if it can work in this game. So I would really like to hear from them on this issue.

farrier_ESO

Jeremy wrote: »

If you had ever actually been physically bullied by someone before: you would know how ridiculous it is to try and compare that to watching a video game elf dance in their underwear. They aren't even in the same universe.

Thankfully, cyberbullying is now recognized in most states and civilized countries as a serious offense.

From a game-design point of view, the best place to start reading on in game harassment is probably Julian Dibell's "A *** in Cyberspace" (1993), which is a decently short article, quite famous in the game-design world, and considered one of the must-reads for both multiplayer game designers and community managers.

http://www.juliandibbell.com/articles/a-rape-in-cyberspace/

Well worth reading even for players.

nerevarine1138

MornaBaine wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Plenty of people in this thread (yourself included, it seems) want the GMs to be regulating this kind of behavior, which I see as extremely problematic.

There are mechanical issues introduced by making ignored players disappear in the game world, but those have already been brought up (and ignored) in this thread enough.

So what is your solution to this problem? Usually I agree with a fair amount of what you say, but this time you seem to be against GM involvement and against using phasing to remove people... so how would you prefer to see this situation resolved?

I'm not against the idea of ignore-phasing in principle, but I don't see how it works on a more practical level. How is PvP in Cyrodiil dealt with? What about the upcoming PvP side of the Justice System?

There would have to be exceptions within the ignore-phasing, and I see a lot of room for problems there. More importantly, I don't think that people dancing in their underwear merits such strong measures. If you find it annoying, fine. I'm not saying that feeling isn't valid. But that's what willpower is for.

You keep pretending that it was "just" that there were "people dancing in their underwear." It's been explained repeatedly that it was MUCH MORE than that in the initial incident that prompted this thread in the first place.

That you do not see how "ignore phasing" might work on a practical level does not in any way mean that the idea should not be investigated further. Only the devs at ZOS have any idea if it can work in this game. So I would really like to hear from them on this issue.

I'm not even going to bother explaining for the fourth time that I believe your specific case was an example of trolling. If you haven't gotten that by now, it's never going to sink in.

The fact remains that you (and others) are arguing that character behavior, without any offensive chat or clear attempts to grief, ought to be regulated more strictly when RPers are feeling annoyed by it. That's not a good system.

Varicite

BigM wrote: »

This is the #1 reason why megaservers just can't work for RP. They should have added one just for that and I bet it could of brought more people to the game (well after the bots and big bugs were fixed) which means more money. Hope you find a way to fix it.

This was supposed to be solved w/ the questionnaire right after creating your character that would have placed RPers on a layer of the server w/ other people who enjoyed RP, etc.

But this idea was scrapped in beta, and everybody gets to play "happily" together now.

I don't have an opinion on it either way, tbh, but I just find it interesting that on one hand ZOS constantly showcases the RP guilds and their events, but then on the other they stand idly by while these same players are becoming more and more harassed in game.

Perhaps it might have been a good idea to put SOME kind of loose measure in place when the questionnaire was scrapped.

/shrug

newtinmpls

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

. More importantly, I don't think that people dancing in their underwear merits such strong measures. If you find it annoying, fine. I'm not saying that feeling isn't valid. But that's what willpower is for.

Really .... do people actually read what they are replying to? Or is the concept of someone dancing in their underwear so enticing that it just overwhelms all other considerations?

I do not mean to be pointing fingers at any one player - but Neravarine (love the name, BTW), your comment was just so perfect and I had reached the point of taking psychic damage from the appearance of deliberate misunderstanding.

Yes, physical bullying is more physically damaging than cyber bullying. However this is just another form of bullying. And "it's just a joke" or "it's not that bad" are deflections that are making the problem worse.

IF someone is deliberately seeking to distress another - that's bullying. Yes it can be hard to detect IF the person is subtle. However when said person actually says in chat something along the lines of "I hate you" while doing very obvious emotes - well..... all I can say is that what with the existence of screenshots (and that's not even a hard mod or anything) that person is not very bright.

And yes, game people can't be everywhere so with large RP events, it's probably a good idea to let them know. Identifying folks who just can't resist a chance to attempt to cause pain. I doubt there are that many. I hope there aren't that many.

And I also concede that things can be misunderstood. I know of a very dear man who ended up losing his job over "sexual harassment" that in my very fierce opinion was nothing of the kind. So I tend to lean on the side of the person's intentions have to be pretty provable and pretty obvious.

In the particular case used as example here, it seems like things were in fact pretty obvious. That's not going to be the case every time. That doesn't mean we give up trying to have a good atmosphere.

Oh and on re-reading my post I suppose I don't have a solution other than to keep trying and communicating.

nerevarine1138

newtinmpls wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

. More importantly, I don't think that people dancing in their underwear merits such strong measures. If you find it annoying, fine. I'm not saying that feeling isn't valid. But that's what willpower is for.

Really .... do people actually read what they are replying to? Or is the concept of someone dancing in their underwear so enticing that it just overwhelms all other considerations?

I do not mean to be pointing fingers at any one player - but Neravarine (love the name, BTW), your comment was just so perfect and I had reached the point of taking psychic damage from the appearance of deliberate misunderstanding.

Yes, physical bullying is more physically damaging than cyber bullying. However this is just another form of bullying. And "it's just a joke" or "it's not that bad" are deflections that are making the problem worse.

IF someone is deliberately seeking to distress another - that's bullying. Yes it can be hard to detect IF the person is subtle. However when said person actually says in chat something along the lines of "I hate you" while doing very obvious emotes - well..... all I can say is that what with the existence of screenshots (and that's not even a hard mod or anything) that person is not very bright.

And yes, game people can't be everywhere so with large RP events, it's probably a good idea to let them know. Identifying folks who just can't resist a chance to attempt to cause pain. I doubt there are that many. I hope there aren't that many.

And I also concede that things can be misunderstood. I know of a very dear man who ended up losing his job over "sexual harassment" that in my very fierce opinion was nothing of the kind. So I tend to lean on the side of the person's intentions have to be pretty provable and pretty obvious.

In the particular case used as example here, it seems like things were in fact pretty obvious. That's not going to be the case every time. That doesn't mean we give up trying to have a good atmosphere.

Oh and on re-reading my post I suppose I don't have a solution other than to keep trying and communicating.

The thing that I take issue with is that RP events somehow get special treatment here.

If I were to stand in the center of Rawl'kha, slap on my Maw of the Infernal Hat (and nothing else) and start dancing, occasionally yelling, "Disco Inferno!", it wouldn't be griefing. But apparently doing the same thing in an RP event is supposed to change the rules.

Sengra

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

If I were to stand in the center of Rawl'kha, slap on my Maw of the Infernal Hat (and nothing else) and start dancing, occasionally yelling, "Disco Inferno!", it wouldn't be griefing. But apparently doing the same thing in an RP event is supposed to change the rules.

But that's always true when it comes to social interactions - the 'rules' always depend on the context. You wouldn't say the same behaviour is okay at a party with friends or during a job interview, would you?

farrier_ESO

I think nevarine (and others) are inadvertently attacking a strawman here, the "special snowflake" strawman.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

The fact remains that you (and others) are arguing that character behavior, without any offensive chat or clear attempts to grief, ought to be regulated more strictly when RPers are feeling annoyed by it. That's not a good system.

Who is asking for more than either better-manned GMming of harassment, or more powerful player-empowerment tools (Phasing, visual ignore in PvE zones, etc) to avoid or ignore harassment?

Where is it written -- and I might have missed it -- that the GMs should police RP events particularly, and should consider harassment a more serious issue if there are RPers there? Or that "RPers being annoyed" should constitute some special-snowflake form of harassment?

If you complain that people are not understanding that you know there was harassment in this case, perhaps that's because your arguments are against imaginary strawman cases where there is no harassment and the RPers are just being whiny gits... this is a case which nobody is talking about but you.

[quote="nerevarine1138;1700404"The thing that I take issue with is that RP events somehow get special treatment here.

If I were to stand in the center of Rawl'kha, slap on my Maw of the Infernal Hat (and nothing else) and start dancing, occasionally yelling, "Disco Inferno!", it wouldn't be griefing. But apparently doing the same thing in an RP event is supposed to change the rules.[/quote]

Nobody is asking here that RPers get special-snowflake treatment.

If someone is griefing you -- that is, deliberately making you or your group's experience worse just for the pleasure of ruining your day -- then they are griefing. It doesn't matter if the activity you're performing is RP, or whether they're chasing you around abusing you and dancing on the safeboxes you try to pick on a legerdemain run, or running around after you as you quest as a khajiit, making cat insults, or whatever.

Dancing somewhere in a public area yelling "disco inferno" in a non-targeted way is a bit trolly to other players in general, but it's not griefing. You appear to understand the difference, and yet are not addressing the thing that everyone else is talking about. You are arguing against banning a thing that everyone is fine with (eh, it's annoying, sure, but it is what it is).

Sure, being a constant public nuisance isn't OK, mind. That's why you can report names, for instance. But that's not what's being talked about in this thread.

What's being talked about here is griefing. Griefing is targeted trolling, it's online bullying, and it's not OK. No matter who it's directed at.

I will say that in PvP the line is MUCH fuzzier than in PvE. If a group keeps ganking you in PvP, well, there's meant to be conflict between players, so that's sorta par for the course, unless maybe it gets to the point where they are very obviously following you between campaigns to harass. In PvE, there's not meant to be conflict, so griefing stands out more and can be stomped on more. It's a sad fact that RPers are the most visible targetable minority group, so probably get an unfair proportion of harassment (I wouldn't know, I'm no RPer).

Where we disagree is you see the use of emotes as a lesser version of bullying. I simply see it as playing the game - or to coin a popular phrase in his thread - as role playing.

Using emotes in public spaces is not griefing, and nobody is arguing against their use, whether or not RPers are present.

This seems to be the core of your misunderstanding. Emoting is not what is being discussed here: griefing is.

Elsonso

Varicite wrote: »

BigM wrote: »

This is the #1 reason why megaservers just can't work for RP. They should have added one just for that and I bet it could of brought more people to the game (well after the bots and big bugs were fixed) which means more money. Hope you find a way to fix it.

This was supposed to be solved w/ the questionnaire right after creating your character that would have placed RPers on a layer of the server w/ other people who enjoyed RP, etc.

But this idea was scrapped in beta, and everybody gets to play "happily" together now.

I don't have an opinion on it either way, tbh, but I just find it interesting that on one hand ZOS constantly showcases the RP guilds and their events, but then on the other they stand idly by while these same players are becoming more and more harassed in game.

Perhaps it might have been a good idea to put SOME kind of loose measure in place when the questionnaire was scrapped.

/shrug

While the questionnaire sounds good, on paper, I think the implementation would have been problematic. It would be much better to divide people such that there are people of different play styles put together, and doing this has fewer technical problems and costs much less.

They have, over the last year, implemented a way to put people into certain channels. For example, guild members tend to be grouped together. This sometimes does not work, but it usually does. I am frequently in the same channel with guild mates.

There may be other criteria, but too much of this leads to long loading screens when entering a new zone.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

. More importantly, I don't think that people dancing in their underwear merits such strong measures. If you find it annoying, fine. I'm not saying that feeling isn't valid. But that's what willpower is for.

Really .... do people actually read what they are replying to? Or is the concept of someone dancing in their underwear so enticing that it just overwhelms all other considerations?

I do not mean to be pointing fingers at any one player - but Neravarine (love the name, BTW), your comment was just so perfect and I had reached the point of taking psychic damage from the appearance of deliberate misunderstanding.

Yes, physical bullying is more physically damaging than cyber bullying. However this is just another form of bullying. And "it's just a joke" or "it's not that bad" are deflections that are making the problem worse.

IF someone is deliberately seeking to distress another - that's bullying. Yes it can be hard to detect IF the person is subtle. However when said person actually says in chat something along the lines of "I hate you" while doing very obvious emotes - well..... all I can say is that what with the existence of screenshots (and that's not even a hard mod or anything) that person is not very bright.

And yes, game people can't be everywhere so with large RP events, it's probably a good idea to let them know. Identifying folks who just can't resist a chance to attempt to cause pain. I doubt there are that many. I hope there aren't that many.

And I also concede that things can be misunderstood. I know of a very dear man who ended up losing his job over "sexual harassment" that in my very fierce opinion was nothing of the kind. So I tend to lean on the side of the person's intentions have to be pretty provable and pretty obvious.

In the particular case used as example here, it seems like things were in fact pretty obvious. That's not going to be the case every time. That doesn't mean we give up trying to have a good atmosphere.

Oh and on re-reading my post I suppose I don't have a solution other than to keep trying and communicating.

The thing that I take issue with is that RP events somehow get special treatment here.

If I were to stand in the center of Rawl'kha, slap on my Maw of the Infernal Hat (and nothing else) and start dancing, occasionally yelling, "Disco Inferno!", it wouldn't be griefing. But apparently doing the same thing in an RP event is supposed to change the rules.

Not just RP events. What about auctions?

It is a matter of good behavior. It is not whether someone can do something, but whether they should be doing it there, and at that time. Those social rules already exist and the ToS covers it by prohibiting disruptive behavior. A properly behaving individual will simply stop once they realize they are being disruptive, even if they have just as much right to be dancing and yelling as an auction does to have an auction at the same place and time. This is just the way proper social rules have formed over the years.

Krist

RP'ers do not need special treatment, but their are different levels of griefing when it comes to rp, as opposed to non rp. Someone cannot purposefully grief a non rp'er by emoting goofy stuff and dragging mobs to them...etc.

It does mess up rp, and rp is a draw for some to the game. It is advertised as an rp game. GMs monitoring this is not special treatment, it is treating rp'ers with the same courtesy of allowing them to enjoy the game as non'rpers. It is called being fair.

I personally do not do "rp events". I think it is a useless form of rp. With that said, my thoughts on it should not dictate what constitutes harassment of those that find enjoyment in it. If people are actually feeling harassed, then it is something to be looked into, whether we agree or not. GMs can make that decision.

I am against a techno fix. They never seem to work out.

MornaBaine

farrier_ESO wrote: »

I think nevarine (and others) are inadvertently attacking a strawman here, the "special snowflake" strawman.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

The fact remains that you (and others) are arguing that character behavior, without any offensive chat or clear attempts to grief, ought to be regulated more strictly when RPers are feeling annoyed by it. That's not a good system.

Who is asking for more than either better-manned GMming of harassment, or more powerful player-empowerment tools (Phasing, visual ignore in PvE zones, etc) to avoid or ignore harassment?

Where is it written -- and I might have missed it -- that the GMs should police RP events particularly, and should consider harassment a more serious issue if there are RPers there? Or that "RPers being annoyed" should constitute some special-snowflake form of harassment?

If you complain that people are not understanding that you know there was harassment in this case, perhaps that's because your arguments are against imaginary strawman cases where there is no harassment and the RPers are just being whiny gits... this is a case which nobody is talking about but you.

[quote="nerevarine1138;1700404"The thing that I take issue with is that RP events somehow get special treatment here.

If I were to stand in the center of Rawl'kha, slap on my Maw of the Infernal Hat (and nothing else) and start dancing, occasionally yelling, "Disco Inferno!", it wouldn't be griefing. But apparently doing the same thing in an RP event is supposed to change the rules.

Nobody is asking here that RPers get special-snowflake treatment.

If someone is griefing you -- that is, deliberately making you or your group's experience worse just for the pleasure of ruining your day -- then they are griefing. It doesn't matter if the activity you're performing is RP, or whether they're chasing you around abusing you and dancing on the safeboxes you try to pick on a legerdemain run, or running around after you as you quest as a khajiit, making cat insults, or whatever.

Dancing somewhere in a public area yelling "disco inferno" in a non-targeted way is a bit trolly to other players in general, but it's not griefing. You appear to understand the difference, and yet are not addressing the thing that everyone else is talking about. You are arguing against banning a thing that everyone is fine with (eh, it's annoying, sure, but it is what it is).

Sure, being a constant public nuisance isn't OK, mind. That's why you can report names, for instance. But that's not what's being talked about in this thread.

What's being talked about here is griefing. Griefing is targeted trolling, it's online bullying, and it's not OK. No matter who it's directed at.

I will say that in PvP the line is MUCH fuzzier than in PvE. If a group keeps ganking you in PvP, well, there's meant to be conflict between players, so that's sorta par for the course, unless maybe it gets to the point where they are very obviously following you between campaigns to harass. In PvE, there's not meant to be conflict, so griefing stands out more and can be stomped on more. It's a sad fact that RPers are the most visible targetable minority group, so probably get an unfair proportion of harassment (I wouldn't know, I'm no RPer).

Where we disagree is you see the use of emotes as a lesser version of bullying. I simply see it as playing the game - or to coin a popular phrase in his thread - as role playing.

Using emotes in public spaces is not griefing, and nobody is arguing against their use, whether or not RPers are present.

This seems to be the core of your misunderstanding. Emoting is not what is being discussed here: griefing is.[/quote]

You Sir, or Madam, win the internet today. Thank you so much for this. It is exactly what I wanted to say but could never say half as well. I am glad to let it stand as my own answer to nerevarine. Again, thank you.

farrier_ESO

Krist wrote: »

I am against a techno fix. They never seem to work out.

In my experience of running MUDs, MMOs, forums, IRC channels, newsgroups, and other online communities, I have found providing the users the tools to avoid harassment is by far and away the most powerful thing you can do to improve the feel of a community.

There are, essentially, three possible approaches to handling trolls.

The first is to do nothing. No moderation, let them run riot, it will sort itself out and reach a stable equilibrium. This can work well, so long as you are okay with having a really toxic, cliquey, elitist equilibrium. It's ideal for small groups, but fails to scale very well at all: in my experience, growing communities invariably either die from drama, or form sets of rules and enforce them.

The next is to have moderators handle everything. This is common on IRC, and is really very difficult to get the tone right. Done well, you get a benevolent dictatorship. Done wrongly, you just get a dictatorship.

The final option, and the one most often chosen by vote, is to provide powerful tools to the players themselves (gamewide ignoring, up/downvoting, kick/ban from private areas, lockable private areas, etc). This places the power to mediate their game experience in the hands of the players themselves.

It's always faster and better to be able to handle things yourself, and only escalate to the authorities if necessary. So if someone is a jerk to you, you'd probably just ignore them. If they are a jerk in your house, you'd kick them out and don't let them back in. If they are a jerk in general, you'd warn people about them. If they're a co-worker, you might warn your boss about it.

You would probably never call 911 on someone, or take them to court, just for being a jerk.

Seems to me, the same should be able to be true in online communities, too. The GMs are the police, the courts, the last line of approach after all else has failed.

Unfortunately, if "all else" isn't much, then the GMs get called a lot, get overworked, get poor response times, and eventually, if they are effective, make the game feel like a police state where nobody can have fun.

MornaBaine

farrier_ESO wrote: »

Krist wrote: »

I am against a techno fix. They never seem to work out.

In my experience of running MUDs, MMOs, forums, IRC channels, newsgroups, and other online communities, I have found providing the users the tools to avoid harassment is by far and away the most powerful thing you can do to improve the feel of a community.

There are, essentially, three possible approaches to handling trolls.

The first is to do nothing. No moderation, let them run riot, it will sort itself out and reach a stable equilibrium. This can work well, so long as you are okay with having a really toxic, cliquey, elitist equilibrium. It's ideal for small groups, but fails to scale very well at all: in my experience, growing communities invariably either die from drama, or form sets of rules and enforce them.

The next is to have moderators handle everything. This is common on IRC, and is really very difficult to get the tone right. Done well, you get a benevolent dictatorship. Done wrongly, you just get a dictatorship.

The final option, and the one most often chosen by vote, is to provide powerful tools to the players themselves (gamewide ignoring, up/downvoting, kick/ban from private areas, lockable private areas, etc). This places the power to mediate their game experience in the hands of the players themselves.

It's always faster and better to be able to handle things yourself, and only escalate to the authorities if necessary. So if someone is a jerk to you, you'd probably just ignore them. If they are a jerk in your house, you'd kick them out and don't let them back in. If they are a jerk in general, you'd warn people about them. If they're a co-worker, you might warn your boss about it.

You would probably never call 911 on someone, or take them to court, just for being a jerk.

Seems to me, the same should be able to be true in online communities, too. The GMs are the police, the courts, the last line of approach after all else has failed.

Unfortunately, if "all else" isn't much, then the GMs get called a lot, get overworked, get poor response times, and eventually, if they are effective, make the game feel like a police state where nobody can have fun.

This is brilliant. Thank you. ZOS, please take note. We don't need you hold our hands. We just need you to give us the tools to protect OURSELVES from harassment and bullying.

Krist

I guess what I was saying earlier isn't that I would not wish to see more player tools, but there is a reason they did not implement some things, and it may well have to do with them being problematic. It doesn't pay to jump the gun on knocking them for not having a quick fix. Their service was offered, and in the mean time, take advantage of it. Maybe they will be able to work out a fix with no bugs.

newtinmpls

I was thinking about this.

I know that it can be hard (sometimes) to navigate that grey line between "expressing myself" and hurting someone else with thoughtless (or whatever) comments. Like I mentioned before I've seen a co-worker get fired for what I think was NOT actual harassment. That being said, I've also seen folks (at the same workplace) hide behind "I was just joking around" and just not choose to acknowledge the pain they were causing.

When I see someone being a jerk in chat, mostly I ignore them. But does that just contribute to their ability to cause misery to others or in other ways?

When I see peeps who are allegedly "play-acting" very nasty comments about mer-and-men sex slave trafficking and making very pointed and unkind comments about fellow players .... would it be more helpful in terms of providing a good game experience for the most people (and being welcoming to newbies) if I took the time to screenshot (including the chat window) - not to "tattle" but to give the data to ZOS and let them investigate/make the call.

Just thinkin'

Moiskormoimi

I'm not sure I follow....Basically you want to restrict others' ability to do as they please so you can do as you please? I don't get it. This is a public mmo. These things happen, in every game, and always will. It's far easier to write in "And then, the homeless of Daggerfall(or wherever), whose lives had been consumed by their skooma addiction, happened upon 'Eddie's' wake. Eddie probably would have had a chuckle or two, but we were all too consumed in our grief."

awesomepicks4231

Possible idea: making RP servers or instances, which i know would mean giving the ability to jump instances, but still, this would eliminate the problem, and would make it so that anyone on that instance would be able to RP with new people that would hadn't RP'd with them before. it was also make it seem a little more inclusive and get rid of the fear of ridecule

farrier_ESO

newtinmpls wrote: »

I was thinking about this. When I see someone being a jerk in chat, mostly I ignore them. But does that just contribute to their ability to cause misery to others or in other ways?

When I see someone being a jerk, I ignore it.
When I see something beyond the pale, I report it, even if it's a one-off.
When I see someone being a consistent or targeted jerk, I report.

Everyone has off days, but the slack you can cut them goes only so far.

timidobserver

farrier_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If you had ever actually been physically bullied by someone before: you would know how ridiculous it is to try and compare that to watching a video game elf dance in their underwear. They aren't even in the same universe.

Thankfully, cyberbullying is now recognized in most states and civilized countries as a serious offense.

From a game-design point of view, the best place to start reading on in game harassment is probably Julian Dibell's "A *** in Cyberspace" (1993), which is a decently short article, quite famous in the game-design world, and considered one of the must-reads for both multiplayer game designers and community managers.

http://www.juliandibbell.com/articles/a-rape-in-cyberspace/

Well worth reading even for players.

Yup, it is also illegal to push a live moose from an airplane in Alaska.

farrier_ESO

timidobserver wrote: »

Yup, it is also illegal to push a live moose from an airplane in Alaska.

It almost looks like you're trying to say "this side-effect of a curious reading of local bylaws is silly, and somehow therefore these widely adopted, internationally-supported laws must also be silly"... but that'd be a very strange argument to try to make. And where I think people are saying very strange things, that usually means I have misunderstood their point, or the reasoning by which they were trying to make it.

So, what was the point you were trying to make there?

MornaBaine

amber_picchiottino_ESO wrote: »

I'm not sure I follow....Basically you want to restrict others' ability to do as they please so you can do as you please? I don't get it. This is a public mmo. These things happen, in every game, and always will. It's far easier to write in "And then, the homeless of Daggerfall(or wherever), whose lives had been consumed by their skooma addiction, happened upon 'Eddie's' wake. Eddie probably would have had a chuckle or two, but we were all too consumed in our grief."

I think it's pretty clear that you don't get it. What is most ardently desired are the tools to fully ignore other players which would actually make it so that ANY player could do WHATEVER THEY WANTED TO and no one would feel the need to involve a GM to censure them. Don't care for all the underwear dancers in a bank? /Ignore them and they magically disappear from your sight. Don't like see those poncy roleplayers all dancing to a lute player in the hall of the castle in Wayrest and seeing all their silly dialogue? /Ignore and poof that party disappears from your sight. Meanwhile, that bank underwear dancers dance on, unaware of who is seeing their antics and who is not...and the RP partiers dance on in the castle with no idea of who is seeing them or not. It's a beautiful live and let live concept and what -I- don't get iswhy anyone WOULDN'T want it if it can in fact be implemented.

istateres

MornaBaine wrote: »

amber_picchiottino_ESO wrote: »

I'm not sure I follow....Basically you want to restrict others' ability to do as they please so you can do as you please? I don't get it. This is a public mmo. These things happen, in every game, and always will. It's far easier to write in "And then, the homeless of Daggerfall(or wherever), whose lives had been consumed by their skooma addiction, happened upon 'Eddie's' wake. Eddie probably would have had a chuckle or two, but we were all too consumed in our grief."

I think it's pretty clear that you don't get it. What is most ardently desired are the tools to fully ignore other players which would actually make it so that ANY player could do WHATEVER THEY WANTED TO and no one would feel the need to involve a GM to censure them. Don't care for all the underwear dancers in a bank? /Ignore them and they magically disappear from your sight. Don't like see those poncy roleplayers all dancing to a lute player in the hall of the castle in Wayrest and seeing all their silly dialogue? /Ignore and poof that party disappears from your sight. Meanwhile, that bank underwear dancers dance on, unaware of who is seeing their antics and who is not...and the RP partiers dance on in the castle with no idea of who is seeing them or not. It's a beautiful live and let live concept and what -I- don't get iswhy anyone WOULDN'T want it if it can in fact be implemented.

Is there someone who wouldn't want this? Really?? I'd love to hear the reason!

Varicite

I can see some potential for abuse here, but hey, I don't really care either way.

istateres

Varicite wrote: »

I can see some potential for abuse here, but hey, I don't really care either way.

How could it be abused?? Please explain!

Varicite

istateres wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

I can see some potential for abuse here, but hey, I don't really care either way.

How could it be abused?? Please explain!

Some of us put people on ignore for pretty frivolous reasons. : P

Didn't like the way they act in zone chat. Didn't like them spamming abilities in town. Didn't like the silly outfit they were wearing, etc.

Only now, they would simply be missing entirely from the game world. I don't think that's what ZOS intends.

But, like I said, I have no real vested interest in the topic one way or another, and I do respect that other players wish to enjoy the game in different ways, so to each their own, I suppose.

/shrug

phreatophile

istateres wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

amber_picchiottino_ESO wrote: »

I'm not sure I follow....Basically you want to restrict others' ability to do as they please so you can do as you please? I don't get it. This is a public mmo. These things happen, in every game, and always will. It's far easier to write in "And then, the homeless of Daggerfall(or wherever), whose lives had been consumed by their skooma addiction, happened upon 'Eddie's' wake. Eddie probably would have had a chuckle or two, but we were all too consumed in our grief."

I think it's pretty clear that you don't get it. What is most ardently desired are the tools to fully ignore other players which would actually make it so that ANY player could do WHATEVER THEY WANTED TO and no one would feel the need to involve a GM to censure them. Don't care for all the underwear dancers in a bank? /Ignore them and they magically disappear from your sight. Don't like see those poncy roleplayers all dancing to a lute player in the hall of the castle in Wayrest and seeing all their silly dialogue? /Ignore and poof that party disappears from your sight. Meanwhile, that bank underwear dancers dance on, unaware of who is seeing their antics and who is not...and the RP partiers dance on in the castle with no idea of who is seeing them or not. It's a beautiful live and let live concept and what -I- don't get iswhy anyone WOULDN'T want it if it can in fact be implemented.

Is there someone who wouldn't want this? Really?? I'd love to hear the reason!

Because they enjoy harassing people.

MornaBaine

Varicite wrote: »

istateres wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

I can see some potential for abuse here, but hey, I don't really care either way.

How could it be abused?? Please explain!

Some of us put people on ignore for pretty frivolous reasons. : P

Didn't like the way they act in zone chat. Didn't like them spamming abilities in town. Didn't like the silly outfit they were wearing, etc.

Only now, they would simply be missing entirely from the game world. I don't think that's what ZOS intends.

But, like I said, I have no real vested interest in the topic one way or another, and I do respect that other players wish to enjoy the game in different ways, so to each their own, I suppose.

/shrug

But how is that "abuse?" Sounds more like the crazy thing they promised us about being able to play the game your way... without people you don't want to deal with. Win-win.

istateres

phreatophile wrote: »

istateres wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

amber_picchiottino_ESO wrote: »

I'm not sure I follow....Basically you want to restrict others' ability to do as they please so you can do as you please? I don't get it. This is a public mmo. These things happen, in every game, and always will. It's far easier to write in "And then, the homeless of Daggerfall(or wherever), whose lives had been consumed by their skooma addiction, happened upon 'Eddie's' wake. Eddie probably would have had a chuckle or two, but we were all too consumed in our grief."

I think it's pretty clear that you don't get it. What is most ardently desired are the tools to fully ignore other players which would actually make it so that ANY player could do WHATEVER THEY WANTED TO and no one would feel the need to involve a GM to censure them. Don't care for all the underwear dancers in a bank? /Ignore them and they magically disappear from your sight. Don't like see those poncy roleplayers all dancing to a lute player in the hall of the castle in Wayrest and seeing all their silly dialogue? /Ignore and poof that party disappears from your sight. Meanwhile, that bank underwear dancers dance on, unaware of who is seeing their antics and who is not...and the RP partiers dance on in the castle with no idea of who is seeing them or not. It's a beautiful live and let live concept and what -I- don't get iswhy anyone WOULDN'T want it if it can in fact be implemented.

Is there someone who wouldn't want this? Really?? I'd love to hear the reason!

Because they enjoy harassing people.

But that's the beauty, they would STILL be harassing people; only the people would have an off button. The only way to argue againat this is to claim your game play requires that you be seen by all players, even if they don't want to see you. (i.e. trolls have rights superior to the rights of the trolled).

Craorach

I can see a few problems with the idea of removing them from the game world.

Prime example, what if you got invited to a group with them in, or they to a group you were in, for a Dungeon or something?

MornaBaine

Craorach wrote: »

I can see a few problems with the idea of removing them from the game world.

Prime example, what if you got invited to a group with them in, or they to a group you were in, for a Dungeon or something?

Then it would be like it is now when one of your party members is out of phase with you. All you would see is the arrow marking where they should be. So then you would have the option to un-ignore them or, if you were adamant about not playing with them, leaving the group.