Harrassment Already A Larger Problem

istateres

[[/quote]So I don't think having GMs start banning a lot of people would protect RPers from disparaging emotes. The best solution here I think is just not to let the emotes bother you.[/quote]

Hummm, sounds like "sticks and stone will break my bones but names will never harm me". An emote, or ANY action in ESO is nothing more than pixels on screen. Certainly they can't be hurtful or bulling, right? The problem is clearly with those who take offense with the pixels. RIGHT . . . .

Sorry, I'm with MornaBaine. I'm adding you to my ignore list. You are not part of the solution. The term CyberBulling can't exist without allowing for pixels to "harm" others. Do players in ESO intentionally try and ruin others games? Yes. Should we have better tools to mitigate this? Yes. Is this only an RP issue? No, its not even primarilly an RP issue.

We want a tool to block visual effects generated by players just like we can with their chat. A visual block would prevent you from seeing ANYTHING them or their effects, emotes, pets, etc. It would do NOTHING to their game play and wouldn't require GM involvement.

Jeremy

LariahHunding wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

istateres wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

farrier_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If you had ever actually been physically bullied by someone before: you would know how ridiculous it is to try and compare that to watching a video game elf dance in their underwear. They aren't even in the same universe.

Thankfully, cyberbullying is now recognized in most states and civilized countries as a serious offense.

From a game-design point of view, the best place to start reading on in game harassment is probably Julian Dibell's "A *** in Cyberspace" (1993), which is a decently short article, quite famous in the game-design world, and considered one of the must-reads for both multiplayer game designers and community managers.

http://www.juliandibbell.com/articles/a-rape-in-cyberspace/

Well worth reading even for players.

A video game character dancing in their underwear is not a good example of cyber bullying.

Most cases of prosecuted Cyber Bullying usually has some attachment to reality - where someone uses the internet to threaten or harass an individual that they know in real life. A judge would laugh this case out of court if it was attempted.

Sure, but we're not trying to prosecute anyone. We want to ban them from OUR world, to stop their visual harassment. This is just an extention of the chat ability, where you can prevenet comments for certain indivivuals from appearing in your chat. They and all their effects on the world would be invisible to us.

My comment was in reference to a poster who brought up laws against cyber bullying and suggested that was the case here. The point I was making is that an underwear dancing emote doesn't qualify as cyber bullying. I'm confident every court in America would back me up on that.

If you want to be able to ignore players visually that's fine. I don't have an issue with that. I just wish people would stop exaggerating this incident and comparing it criminal behavior or a bully beating someone up.

It's an emote on a video game for crying out loud.

The comparison does not come from the actions of the players but, rather, their intent. The intent of these actions, when done up in the faces of other characters and continued even when politely asked to stop, IS to "bully." The intent IS to upset and harass. When an action is taken solely in order to, in any way, hurt someone who is powerless to fight back, that IS bullying. Does it fit as an actionable offense under the law? No. But it's still bullying and ZOS HAS the means to put a stop to it. Therefore, they should.

Video game emotes do not cause you any physical injuries (and shouldn't cause you any mental ones either). So I think the bullying comparison needs to stop. That's going too far and exaggerating what is taking place. It also makes light of actual bullying - which can be serious and very harmful - unlike video game emotes.

I don't have an issue with you describing it as a mild form of harassment if the player continuously follows you around doing the emote or something to that effect. But to dance naked at your role playing funeral - I would be wary to even call it that.

I also think expecting GMs to punish players on the basis of their intent behind the emotes they perform is a bit ridiculous. What's next? Hate crime legislation to protect RPers against emotes intended to make fun of them?

I think it's fairly obvious you and many of us here are simply not going to agree on this issue. While not bullying under any defined laws, I will contend that this sort of behavior is driven by the very same sort of personality maladjustment that causes bullying. It is an unfortunate fact that when placed in a situation where they know there will be no consequences for their actions a disappointingly large number of people will behave in pretty appalling ways towards other people. And that is what is happening here. So, one way or another, it needs to be addressed and stopped. My, and most others people's here, preferred method is the one that doesn't actually punish these people but simply makes it so we don't have to put up with them. So arguments about whether or not it's legally "bullying" are indeed moot. Therefore I will no longer engage with you over this difference of opinion as it is fairly obvious we are never going to agree on it. Have a nice day.

Fair enough.

Though I should point out people act in pretty appalling ways toward each other in real life too: even when there are consequences.

So I don't think having GMs start banning a lot of people would protect RPers from disparaging emotes. The best solution here I think is just not to let the emotes bother you.

Typical victim blaming. Victim is being too sensitive.

I believe in this case: and where it concerns video game emotes of players dancing in their underwear during an RP event . Then yes - players are allowing themselves to be too bothered by it. I would even object somewhat to your use of the word victim to describe it. Victim of what? Victim of the cruel intent of a video game emote? I just have a hard time seeing this as a situation that requires administrative action.

If a person persistently follows you around on the game doing emotes then perhaps I would support maybe some slight GM involvement. But it would have to involve a dedicated attempt to follow and harass the individual. Not merely a player disrupting a player event with an emote. I see that as just harmless player interaction and part of playing an MMORPG.

newtinmpls

MornaBaine wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

So was there any harassment? Was it dealt with appropriately?

If you read the original post you will know that there indeed was a specific instance of harassment that prompted this discussion. .

If you are regular reader of this thread, you might have noticed that I have posted more than once. So just to clarify, my question was specifically related to the information I'd posted on the 29th about an RP even being mentioned by the ZoS team on a podcast. Since they had mentioned it - I wondered if it was handled appropriately.

MornaBaine

newtinmpls wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

So was there any harassment? Was it dealt with appropriately?

If you read the original post you will know that there indeed was a specific instance of harassment that prompted this discussion. .

If you are regular reader of this thread, you might have noticed that I have posted more than once. So just to clarify, my question was specifically related to the information I'd posted on the 29th about an RP even being mentioned by the ZoS team on a podcast. Since they had mentioned it - I wondered if it was handled appropriately.

Could you link the specific podcast and mention the time stamp? Thank you.

MornaBaine

newtinmpls wrote: »

speaking of ZoS supporting RP, i watched the youtube of the most recent ... whadycallit .... the every-other-week podcast thingie and I was interested to note that they were announcing planned RP events.

I'm hoping that means a GM will be on hand on troll-watch duty. Sad, but possibly needed.

Ah, you mean this post? The connection to it from your previous post was not clear. However, I did not attend the RP event in question so do not know if it was "handled appropriately." Indeed, I'm not even sure what you mean by that.

Jeremy

seanvwolf wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Video game emotes do not cause you any physical injuries (and shouldn't cause you any mental ones either). So I think the bullying comparison needs to stop. That's going too far and exaggerating what is taking place. It also makes light of actual bullying - which can be serious and very harmful - unlike video game emotes.

I don't have an issue with you describing it as a mild form of harassment if the player continuously follows you around doing the emote or something to that effect. But to dance naked at your role playing funeral - I would be wary to even call it that.

I also think expecting GMs to punish players on the basis of their intent behind the emotes they perform is a bit ridiculous. What's next? Hate crime legislation to protect RPers against emotes intended to make fun of them?

I understand what you are saying, @Jeremy and would tend to agree about the severity, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be less of a priority to address. How much longer will it be till the forms of harassment escalate when the pestering underwear-clad dancing fool decides it's too boring just to dance and would like to see what other way they can grief other players.

Understand that bullying also includes mild harassment if it is either repeated or has the potential to be repeated against a defenseless party (here the defenseless party is the one who has no tools to stop the harassment, save move to another location or log out - which if it happens is the aggressor coercing the defenseless party to take an action they don't want to take; i.e. also bullying.)

How do you decide which player should have to move?

The player dancing in his underwear has just as much right to be at the location as does the player role playing a funeral ceremony. To try and judge a player's right to perform emotes at certain locations based on their intent would be impossible to enforce and wouldn't be worth a fraction of the time it would require.

I also can't relate to adjectives such as coercion or bullying being used in this situation. And why would you be defenseless? You can emote them back if you want and have all of the same tools/weapons they have. So I don't understand the defenseless claim.

If a player continuously follows or stalks another player then I believe some action should be taken. That would be a mild form of video game harassment. But I don't see using emotes during an RP event in that same category. I just see it as other players goofing off in a public area with emotes and I think that should be allowed.

If Role Players want to avoid the reactions of their fellow players I think it's incumbent on them to find a more isolated area to RP in.

MornaBaine

Jeremy wrote: »

seanvwolf wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Video game emotes do not cause you any physical injuries (and shouldn't cause you any mental ones either). So I think the bullying comparison needs to stop. That's going too far and exaggerating what is taking place. It also makes light of actual bullying - which can be serious and very harmful - unlike video game emotes.

I don't have an issue with you describing it as a mild form of harassment if the player continuously follows you around doing the emote or something to that effect. But to dance naked at your role playing funeral - I would be wary to even call it that.

I also think expecting GMs to punish players on the basis of their intent behind the emotes they perform is a bit ridiculous. What's next? Hate crime legislation to protect RPers against emotes intended to make fun of them?

I understand what you are saying, @Jeremy and would tend to agree about the severity, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be less of a priority to address. How much longer will it be till the forms of harassment escalate when the pestering underwear-clad dancing fool decides it's too boring just to dance and would like to see what other way they can grief other players.

Understand that bullying also includes mild harassment if it is either repeated or has the potential to be repeated against a defenseless party (here the defenseless party is the one who has no tools to stop the harassment, save move to another location or log out - which if it happens is the aggressor coercing the defenseless party to take an action they don't want to take; i.e. also bullying.)

How do you decide which player should have to move?

The player dancing in his underwear has just as much right to be at the location as does the player role playing a funeral ceremony. To try and judge a player's right to perform emotes at certain locations based on their intent would be impossible to enforce and wouldn't be worth a fraction of the time it would require.

I also can't relate to adjectives such as coercion or bullying being used in this situation. And why would you be defenseless? You can emote them back if you want and have all of the same tools/weapons they have. So I don't understand the defenseless claim.

If a player continuously follows or stalks another player then I believe some action should be taken. That would be a mild form of video game harassment. But I don't see using emotes during an RP event in that same category. I just see it as other players goofing off in a public area with emotes and I think that should be allowed.

If Role Players want to avoid the reactions of their fellow players I think it's incumbent on them to find a more isolated area to RP in.

One last time. There are no such areas. Nor should it be roleplayers who are forced to try to find them in order to avoid harassment. And let's just call it harassment because that's exactly what it is.

newtinmpls

Jeremy wrote: »

The player dancing in his underwear has just as much right to be at the location as does the player role playing a funeral ceremony.

If two peeps show up, and one starts to dance, and another starts to weep and dig a grave, then I doubt they would care much about each other.

If a group are gathered together, and a new person walks by and says "whatcha doin" and they say "having a funeral" and then he starts dancing in his undies - anyone with more than two working brain cells can figure out s/he's being a jerk, and should be ignored/modded/reported or whatever.

It's not rocket science here.

icebladess

Jeremy wrote: »

seanvwolf wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Video game emotes do not cause you any physical injuries (and shouldn't cause you any mental ones either). So I think the bullying comparison needs to stop. That's going too far and exaggerating what is taking place. It also makes light of actual bullying - which can be serious and very harmful - unlike video game emotes.

I don't have an issue with you describing it as a mild form of harassment if the player continuously follows you around doing the emote or something to that effect. But to dance naked at your role playing funeral - I would be wary to even call it that.

I also think expecting GMs to punish players on the basis of their intent behind the emotes they perform is a bit ridiculous. What's next? Hate crime legislation to protect RPers against emotes intended to make fun of them?

I understand what you are saying, @Jeremy and would tend to agree about the severity, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be less of a priority to address. How much longer will it be till the forms of harassment escalate when the pestering underwear-clad dancing fool decides it's too boring just to dance and would like to see what other way they can grief other players.

Understand that bullying also includes mild harassment if it is either repeated or has the potential to be repeated against a defenseless party (here the defenseless party is the one who has no tools to stop the harassment, save move to another location or log out - which if it happens is the aggressor coercing the defenseless party to take an action they don't want to take; i.e. also bullying.)

How do you decide which player should have to move?

The player dancing in his underwear has just as much right to be at the location as does the player role playing a funeral ceremony. To try and judge a player's right to perform emotes at certain locations based on their intent would be impossible to enforce and wouldn't be worth a fraction of the time it would require.

Here you go Jeremy, cyberbullying in MMOs which you should read.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/07/05/us-internet-bullying-idUSN0343424320070705

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/128664/Opinion_Cyberbullying_And_Gamers.php

http://proc.conisar.org/2014/pdf/3307.pdf

http://www.cyberrisknetwork.com/2014/04/30/gaming-risks-mmorpgs/

Have fun reading and then have a good knowledge of cyberbullying on what they are talking about.




Edit a part of the messange.

Jeremy

newtinmpls wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

The player dancing in his underwear has just as much right to be at the location as does the player role playing a funeral ceremony.

If two peeps show up, and one starts to dance, and another starts to weep and dig a grave, then I doubt they would care much about each other.

If a group are gathered together, and a new person walks by and says "whatcha doin" and they say "having a funeral" and then he starts dancing in his undies - anyone with more than two working brain cells can figure out s/he's being a jerk, and should be ignored/modded/reported or whatever.

It's not rocket science here.

So ignore him or her. That's fine. But expecting the game masters to ban or remove jerks who are using emotes you don't approve of is more than a bit unreasonable.

MornaBaine

Jeremy wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

The player dancing in his underwear has just as much right to be at the location as does the player role playing a funeral ceremony.

If two peeps show up, and one starts to dance, and another starts to weep and dig a grave, then I doubt they would care much about each other.

If a group are gathered together, and a new person walks by and says "whatcha doin" and they say "having a funeral" and then he starts dancing in his undies - anyone with more than two working brain cells can figure out s/he's being a jerk, and should be ignored/modded/reported or whatever.

It's not rocket science here.

So ignore him or her. That's fine. But expecting the game masters to ban or remove jerks who are using emotes you don't approve of is more than a bit unreasonable.

You keep completely misrepresenting what is happening despite having it explained several times. We're not talking about the ubiquitous underwear dancers in banks. We're talking about those players who will stand directly in your face spamming spells and doing their best to disrupt and distract from whatever you are doing. Just move, you say? They follow you. When all I can see on my screen is a seizure inducing light show and the person doing it refuses to stop, that's player harassment. And until they give us the tools to actually make these people invisible then yes, GMs MUST take an active hand in policing this kind of behavior. Yes, there ARE better ways to deal with this. And that is what is being asked for.

newtinmpls

I'd said:

newtinmpls wrote: »

If two peeps show up, and one starts to dance, and another starts to weep and dig a grave, then I doubt they would care much about each other.

If a group are gathered together, and a new person walks by and says "whatcha doin" and they say "having a funeral" and then he starts dancing in his undies - anyone with more than two working brain cells can figure out s/he's being a jerk, and should be ignored/modded/reported or whatever.

It's not rocket science here.

Jeremy wrote: »

So ignore him or her. That's fine. But expecting the game masters to ban or remove jerks who are using emotes you don't approve of is more than a bit unreasonable.

This is not "using e-motes I don't approve of" - since personally I love the rich options we have (and which I could RMEMBER them a bit better - but that's another issue)

What I mean is behavior deliberately designed to distress/mock/interfere with another player in an ongoing way (i.e. for more than a minute real-time).

So for example, if my character is in the middle of digging a grave for a dead horse in front of a bank (to use an example that happened in Daggerfall a while back) and a character walks by and say ... flips me the bird (I don't actually recall there being an e-mote for that, but stipulate that there was one) and walks on by ... I don't really care.

If said other player continues to hop around my charcter, strips down to his undies and basically bops and emotes (and possibly says derogatory things in chat) they are not just "using a e-mote" they are putting energy and time into being a jerk. I think that should require some sort of response.

The ideal (meaning both most convenient and most effective) would be if I had an /ignore X option that not only would block their chat, but would also block their visuals (effectively putting us out of phase with each other). They could still (by definition) "use whatever e-mote they wanted" but not be doing it in a way to successfull cause anyone else distress.

icebladess

I like how he ignores my post, cause he is trying to fight a losing battle.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

Ysne58

I like the idea of expanding /ignore player to include not seeing what they are doing in game. That would be much less work for our understaffed GMs.

MornaBaine

Ysne58 wrote: »

I like the idea of expanding /ignore player to include not seeing what they are doing in game. That would be much less work for our understaffed GMs.

This right here. It's just silly to think GMs should have to police bad player behavior when they have a gazillion other concerns relating to actual gameplay to attend to. It ends up meaning they can't do EITHER job effectively. It's annoying that they can no longer GET to a problem player to catch them in the act and remove them WHEN they are being disruptive and wrecking people's game experience but also, if I'm stuck in a wall somewhere and the /stuck command isn't doing the trick I'm going to be pretty darned annoyed that a GM who could be helping me is actually chasing down some tool who just can't learn to leave people alone. It's lose-lose for the GMs and THAT is part of the problem.

Elsonso

Ysne58 wrote: »

I like the idea of expanding /ignore player to include not seeing what they are doing in game. That would be much less work for our understaffed GMs.

I actually like the idea of players being placed in different channels due to ignore. Much the same way party and guild members are placed into the same one.

Now, I realize this makes things complicated and I am not sure how effective they can be, but maybe if there is a choice, pick the one that keeps people separated that are ignored. As a low or bottom priority thing.

SeñorCinco

This adopted lewd behavior is written off in my mind through my own role playing. These skeever droppings are just a bunch of crazed skooma junkies. I don't look at other characters as other players. Every rendering in front of me is just another NPC. An NPC that I choose to interact with or not.

I envision an in depth implementation of the Dark Brotherhood or the Morag Tong. If done correctly, these pitiful souls will be bathed in their own blood from a humble letter sent to the Night Mother. For me, that would be more satisfying than a PM to a GM.

Nonetheless, I support the idea of a mechanic tied to the ignore option.

Krist

SeñorCinco wrote: »

This adopted lewd behavior is written off in my mind through my own role playing. These skeever droppings are just a bunch of crazed skooma junkies. I don't look at other characters as other players. Every rendering in front of me is just another NPC. An NPC that I choose to interact with or not.
I envision an in depth implementation of the Dark Brotherhood or the Morag Tong. If done correctly, these pitiful souls will be bathed in their own blood from a humble letter sent to the Night Mother. For me, that would be more satisfying than a PM to a GM.
Nonetheless, I support the idea of a mechanic tied to the ignore option.

I am with you on the rp'ing it away. Be careful though, they are insisting it is not an rp problem.

I have been playing MMOs for 20 years (or something like MMOs, dont remember when they got called that) and never had a problem with griefers that I could not handle myself. Griefers search out victims, and when they cannot find one, they move on. They are usually kids, or very immature adults. They get bored very quick as well.

Sometimes I have my own fun with them, and they leave in a huff. Oh well, at my age, I get my entertainment when I can.

newtinmpls

Krist wrote: »

Sometimes I have my own fun with them, and they leave in a huff. Oh well, at my age, I get my entertainment when I can.

Now you have me curious

Krist

newtinmpls wrote: »

Krist wrote: »

Sometimes I have my own fun with them, and they leave in a huff. Oh well, at my age, I get my entertainment when I can.

Now you have me curious

Example, on another game, a male elf kept dancing in front of rp'ers, especially the ones sitting down so that they were waist level. I started calling him my small breasted female elf slave, and ordering him to dance more. I knew I had him when he started feeling the need to say "I am a guy"....of course I just ignored that and rp'ed him as my female slave.

He left.

"She isn't much up top, but then most elves are small. Look at her dance though! Dance slave dance!"

MornaBaine

Krist wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Krist wrote: »

Sometimes I have my own fun with them, and they leave in a huff. Oh well, at my age, I get my entertainment when I can.

Now you have me curious

Example, on another game, a male elf kept dancing in front of rp'ers, especially the ones sitting down so that they were waist level. I started calling him my small breasted female elf slave, and ordering him to dance more. I knew I had him when he started feeling the need to say "I am a guy"....of course I just ignored that and rp'ed him as my female slave.

He left.

"She isn't much up top, but then most elves are small. Look at her dance though! Dance slave dance!"

Ha! You Sir, win the internet today! I'll be the first to say that there can be some fun to be had with trolls. But it's so bad in this game that it just becomes really tedious after awhile. Again, I feel this is because of the lack of instancing so that there is no such thing as a private instance where a group of roleplayers can get away from these tools.

newtinmpls

Krist wrote: »

Example, on another game, a male elf kept dancing in front of rp'ers, especially the ones sitting down so that they were waist level. I started calling him my small breasted female elf slave, and ordering him to dance more. I knew I had him when he started feeling the need to say "I am a guy"....of course I just ignored that and rp'ed him as my female slave.

He left.

"She isn't much up top, but then most elves are small. Look at her dance though! Dance slave dance!"

OMG .... you get an awesome for that.

Francis_Toliver

MornaBaine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

seanvwolf wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

How do you decide which player should have to move?

The player dancing in his underwear has just as much right to be at the location as does the player role playing a funeral ceremony. To try and judge a player's right to perform emotes at certain locations based on their intent would be impossible to enforce and wouldn't be worth a fraction of the time it would require.

I also can't relate to adjectives such as coercion or bullying being used in this situation. And why would you be defenseless? You can emote them back if you want and have all of the same tools/weapons they have. So I don't understand the defenseless claim.

If a player continuously follows or stalks another player then I believe some action should be taken. That would be a mild form of video game harassment. But I don't see using emotes during an RP event in that same category. I just see it as other players goofing off in a public area with emotes and I think that should be allowed.

If Role Players want to avoid the reactions of their fellow players I think it's incumbent on them to find a more isolated area to RP in.

One last time. There are no such areas. Nor should it be roleplayers who are forced to try to find them in order to avoid harassment. And let's just call it harassment because that's exactly what it is.

No offense here but using the real world as an example, you will find your argument is not just fallacious, it is a very silly. It sounds like the argument of someone that wants to continue to do something wrong and is looking for a reason for it to be o.k.

Real world example:
A group of people (in the real world) are holding an event in a public forum (say a park) and someone or a group of someones come along and disrupt the event. They are wrong. This is not up for argument. If a police officer is on hand he will explain this (once) to the people disrupting the event and then he will cuff them and give them a ride to the precinct. This IS what will happen (trust me, I have watched it happen more then once).

Saying "this is a public forum and I have as much right to stand here being disruptive as they have to have their event" will not fly. Suggesting that the police officer will not be able to make the judgement about the intent of the person disrupting the event is ridiculous. That is what police do. Saying that someone that does this regularly is not bullying and harassing is a misunderstanding of bullying (to target a person or group and abuse them repeatedly). The police would tell you it was both.

The only exception to this real world example is for political protests, and even then the police tend to err on the side of hauling the protesters off to lockup. For private situations the above example is pretty much the rule.

All of this is so easily transferable to the virtual world of ESO, I am not going to bother to do a step by step.

Simply put, ZOS either needs to police these event more thoroughly or offer a means for players to handle the emotionally infantile trolls themselves.

Zhoyzu

domenthechief wrote: »

civilizedsavage wrote: »

Player housing, yeah...best case scenario. Solver of most RP'ers problems.

They know we want it, but no response except the generic, "Oh, that would be cool, but no immediate plans."
grammar edit.

PvP arena? Oh, that would be cool, no immediate plans, though.

PvP for justice system? Oh, we were thinking about that, it would be cool. No plans at the moment, though.

Listening to the majority of people who don't want p2w items in crown store? Oh, that would be cool, but no immediate plans, though.

Releasing all the "ALREADY FINISHED" DLCs as it was promised? Oh, that would be cool, no immediate plans, though.

Implementing some of the most important Add-Ons into the game to make our UI better? Oh, that would be cool, no immediate plans, though.

Fixing the lag in Cyrodiil? Uh, oh, that would be cool. No immediate plans, though, so we'll just decrease the player cap.

Horse racing? OH, we mentioned that about two weeks after release, right? Uh, no immediate plans, though.

its clear ZoS has the inability to plan. im surprised this game actually launched sometimes because of this.

Jeremy

MornaBaine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

The player dancing in his underwear has just as much right to be at the location as does the player role playing a funeral ceremony.

If two peeps show up, and one starts to dance, and another starts to weep and dig a grave, then I doubt they would care much about each other.

If a group are gathered together, and a new person walks by and says "whatcha doin" and they say "having a funeral" and then he starts dancing in his undies - anyone with more than two working brain cells can figure out s/he's being a jerk, and should be ignored/modded/reported or whatever.

It's not rocket science here.

So ignore him or her. That's fine. But expecting the game masters to ban or remove jerks who are using emotes you don't approve of is more than a bit unreasonable.

You keep completely misrepresenting what is happening despite having it explained several times. We're not talking about the ubiquitous underwear dancers in banks. We're talking about those players who will stand directly in your face spamming spells and doing their best to disrupt and distract from whatever you are doing. Just move, you say? They follow you. When all I can see on my screen is a seizure inducing light show and the person doing it refuses to stop, that's player harassment. And until they give us the tools to actually make these people invisible then yes, GMs MUST take an active hand in policing this kind of behavior. Yes, there ARE better ways to deal with this. And that is what is being asked for.

I was referring to players who dance naked during RP events. Not players who stalk you.

I've already said multiple times in this thread that if a player continuously follows you around on the game trying to annoy you I would consider that a mild form of video game harassment and a GM should step in and tell the player to stop.

So I don't think I'm misrepresenting anything. ^^

Jeremy

icebladess wrote: »

I like how he ignores my post, cause he is trying to fight a losing battle.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

istateres wrote: »

[

So I don't think having GMs start banning a lot of people would protect RPers from disparaging emotes. The best solution here I think is just not to let the emotes bother you.[/quote]

Hummm, sounds like "sticks and stone will break my bones but names will never harm me". An emote, or ANY action in ESO is nothing more than pixels on screen. Certainly they can't be hurtful or bulling, right? The problem is clearly with those who take offense with the pixels. RIGHT . . . .

Sorry, I'm with MornaBaine. I'm adding you to my ignore list. You are not part of the solution. The term CyberBulling can't exist without allowing for pixels to "harm" others. Do players in ESO intentionally try and ruin others games? Yes. Should we have better tools to mitigate this? Yes. Is this only an RP issue? No, its not even primarilly an RP issue.

We want a tool to block visual effects generated by players just like we can with their chat. A visual block would prevent you from seeing ANYTHING them or their effects, emotes, pets, etc. It would do NOTHING to their game play and wouldn't require GM involvement. [/quote]

I think I'll stand by what I said. If you want to add me to your ignore list feel free. It is probably for the best if that very mild post of mine you quoted offended you so much.

Jeremy

MornaBaine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

seanvwolf wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Video game emotes do not cause you any physical injuries (and shouldn't cause you any mental ones either). So I think the bullying comparison needs to stop. That's going too far and exaggerating what is taking place. It also makes light of actual bullying - which can be serious and very harmful - unlike video game emotes.

I don't have an issue with you describing it as a mild form of harassment if the player continuously follows you around doing the emote or something to that effect. But to dance naked at your role playing funeral - I would be wary to even call it that.

I also think expecting GMs to punish players on the basis of their intent behind the emotes they perform is a bit ridiculous. What's next? Hate crime legislation to protect RPers against emotes intended to make fun of them?

I understand what you are saying, @Jeremy and would tend to agree about the severity, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be less of a priority to address. How much longer will it be till the forms of harassment escalate when the pestering underwear-clad dancing fool decides it's too boring just to dance and would like to see what other way they can grief other players.

Understand that bullying also includes mild harassment if it is either repeated or has the potential to be repeated against a defenseless party (here the defenseless party is the one who has no tools to stop the harassment, save move to another location or log out - which if it happens is the aggressor coercing the defenseless party to take an action they don't want to take; i.e. also bullying.)

How do you decide which player should have to move?

The player dancing in his underwear has just as much right to be at the location as does the player role playing a funeral ceremony. To try and judge a player's right to perform emotes at certain locations based on their intent would be impossible to enforce and wouldn't be worth a fraction of the time it would require.

I also can't relate to adjectives such as coercion or bullying being used in this situation. And why would you be defenseless? You can emote them back if you want and have all of the same tools/weapons they have. So I don't understand the defenseless claim.

If a player continuously follows or stalks another player then I believe some action should be taken. That would be a mild form of video game harassment. But I don't see using emotes during an RP event in that same category. I just see it as other players goofing off in a public area with emotes and I think that should be allowed.

If Role Players want to avoid the reactions of their fellow players I think it's incumbent on them to find a more isolated area to RP in.

One last time. There are no such areas. Nor should it be roleplayers who are forced to try to find them in order to avoid harassment. And let's just call it harassment because that's exactly what it is.

You aren't forced to.

But if seeing the reaction of other players via emotes bothers you or other RPers so much then I do think it's your obligation to find somewhere less public to have your events. Not the rest of the player base.

It is your opinion that dancing naked at a RP funeral is harassment. I consider it harmless.

Now if the player takes up stalking you and follows you around the game for hours getting in your face and trying their best to annoy you that's different and might require some GM attention.

Jeremy

newtinmpls wrote: »

I'd said:

newtinmpls wrote: »

If two peeps show up, and one starts to dance, and another starts to weep and dig a grave, then I doubt they would care much about each other.

If a group are gathered together, and a new person walks by and says "whatcha doin" and they say "having a funeral" and then he starts dancing in his undies - anyone with more than two working brain cells can figure out s/he's being a jerk, and should be ignored/modded/reported or whatever.

It's not rocket science here.

Jeremy wrote: »

So ignore him or her. That's fine. But expecting the game masters to ban or remove jerks who are using emotes you don't approve of is more than a bit unreasonable.

This is not "using e-motes I don't approve of" - since personally I love the rich options we have (and which I could RMEMBER them a bit better - but that's another issue)

What I mean is behavior deliberately designed to distress/mock/interfere with another player in an ongoing way (i.e. for more than a minute real-time).

So for example, if my character is in the middle of digging a grave for a dead horse in front of a bank (to use an example that happened in Daggerfall a while back) and a character walks by and say ... flips me the bird (I don't actually recall there being an e-mote for that, but stipulate that there was one) and walks on by ... I don't really care.

If said other player continues to hop around my charcter, strips down to his undies and basically bops and emotes (and possibly says derogatory things in chat) they are not just "using a e-mote" they are putting energy and time into being a jerk. I think that should require some sort of response.

The ideal (meaning both most convenient and most effective) would be if I had an /ignore X option that not only would block their chat, but would also block their visuals (effectively putting us out of phase with each other). They could still (by definition) "use whatever e-mote they wanted" but not be doing it in a way to successfull cause anyone else distress.

If the player continuously stalks you then I would agree - that might require some attention.

But using emotes at a RP event is not something I believe warrants any kind of GM attention. And you can ignore the person's chat so that shouldn't be an issue either.

newtinmpls

Jeremy, do you understand the concept of harassment?

Uberkull

Lord...11 pages of this back and forth, yet did I miss the post about the core problem here?

The Megaserver. There is more than technical reasons other MMOs have more than one server, and part of it is what they clearly call RP servers. You create a character on a RP server, you agree to very strict rules that eliminate anyone who discriminates / trolls / or bullies RPers. That's it, the end. There is no gray area, you joined a RP server and you signed up to accept RP and participate. Break the rules, character is removed. Same amount of GMs, but they have a easier job...cut and dry rules, break em...bye bye.

So now ZOS can't add another RP Megaserver.....or can they?