Please people, Let's stop all this sorc QQ

Armitas

woodsro wrote: »

Hardened Ward wouldn't be viable if it was based on health because sorcs have no health. A sorc can't put points into health or you wont be able to kill anyone.

Everyone else in the game suffers this same dilemma when using a shield. Why is it different for sorcs?

Joy_Division

Armitas wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

Hardened Ward wouldn't be viable if it was based on health because sorcs have no health. A sorc can't put points into health or you wont be able to kill anyone.

Everyone else in the game suffers this same dilemma when using a shield. Why is it different for sorcs?

DK and Templars, whose shields are based of health, can heal themselves with the press of a button. Sorcs can't. That fact gets continually lost in these QQ threads.

Armitas

Joy_Division wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

Hardened Ward wouldn't be viable if it was based on health because sorcs have no health. A sorc can't put points into health or you wont be able to kill anyone.

Everyone else in the game suffers this same dilemma when using a shield. Why is it different for sorcs?

DK and Templars, whose shields are based of health, can heal themselves with the press of a button. Sorcs can't. That fact gets continually lost in these QQ threads.

DK's and Templars can't escape with the press of a button. That is why they have heals.

Pancake-Tragedy

Armitas wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

Hardened Ward wouldn't be viable if it was based on health because sorcs have no health. A sorc can't put points into health or you wont be able to kill anyone.

Everyone else in the game suffers this same dilemma when using a shield. Why is it different for sorcs?

DK and Templars, whose shields are based of health, can heal themselves with the press of a button. Sorcs can't. That fact gets continually lost in these QQ threads.

DK's and Templars can't escape with the press of a button. That is why they have heals.

Congratz, you just explained why different classes are different.

Armitas

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

Hardened Ward wouldn't be viable if it was based on health because sorcs have no health. A sorc can't put points into health or you wont be able to kill anyone.

Everyone else in the game suffers this same dilemma when using a shield. Why is it different for sorcs?

DK and Templars, whose shields are based of health, can heal themselves with the press of a button. Sorcs can't. That fact gets continually lost in these QQ threads.

DK's and Templars can't escape with the press of a button. That is why they have heals.

Congratz, you just explained why different classes are different.

That explains why that is different, not the question I asked.

Pancake-Tragedy

Armitas wrote: »

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

Hardened Ward wouldn't be viable if it was based on health because sorcs have no health. A sorc can't put points into health or you wont be able to kill anyone.

Everyone else in the game suffers this same dilemma when using a shield. Why is it different for sorcs?

DK and Templars, whose shields are based of health, can heal themselves with the press of a button. Sorcs can't. That fact gets continually lost in these QQ threads.

DK's and Templars can't escape with the press of a button. That is why they have heals.

Congratz, you just explained why different classes are different.

That explains why that is different, not the question I asked.

Those shields also provide additional utility:

Sun shield/Blazing shield does damage when it is broke.
Obsidian shield shields allies and can be morphed to increase healing done or do damage when the shield is broke.
Conjured ward only shields damage, Empowered Ward increases pet damage (lol) or Hardened Ward can increase the shield strength.

If Conjured ward and its morphs were to be switched to scale off of HP, would you say that it should be modified to also provide some form of utility? Because currently, it is only a survivability skill and nothing more.

As Joy_Division mentioned already, DKs and Templars also have heals that can be used in conjunction with their class shield, which synergize very well together: Constant blazing shields with rushed ceremony/breath of life to become very tanky and become a mobile AoE bomb of sorts that is highly threatening to melee players...and DKs who can use Ingeous shield to increase GDB effectiveness and heals to their team.

...While sorcs can cast their Ward and bolt escape away. So much utility, plz nerf.

Also keep in mind DK and Templar shields are useful regardless of which way they spec (magicka, stamina, or high HP tanks), while Sorcs shield is only useful if they spec into magicka.

Vis

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

Hardened Ward wouldn't be viable if it was based on health because sorcs have no health. A sorc can't put points into health or you wont be able to kill anyone.

Everyone else in the game suffers this same dilemma when using a shield. Why is it different for sorcs?

DK and Templars, whose shields are based of health, can heal themselves with the press of a button. Sorcs can't. That fact gets continually lost in these QQ threads.

DK's and Templars can't escape with the press of a button. That is why they have heals.

Congratz, you just explained why different classes are different.

That made me chuckle. Well played!

cozmon3c_ESO

Armitas wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

Hardened Ward wouldn't be viable if it was based on health because sorcs have no health. A sorc can't put points into health or you wont be able to kill anyone.

Everyone else in the game suffers this same dilemma when using a shield. Why is it different for sorcs?

DK and Templars, whose shields are based of health, can heal themselves with the press of a button. Sorcs can't. That fact gets continually lost in these QQ threads.

DK's and Templars can't escape with the press of a button. That is why they have heals.

oh but they can, through skills that any class can get.

become a vampire and use mist form, or you could always just dodge roll forever. both options, one for magicka and the other for stamina.

Armitas

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

Hardened Ward wouldn't be viable if it was based on health because sorcs have no health. A sorc can't put points into health or you wont be able to kill anyone.

Everyone else in the game suffers this same dilemma when using a shield. Why is it different for sorcs?

DK and Templars, whose shields are based of health, can heal themselves with the press of a button. Sorcs can't. That fact gets continually lost in these QQ threads.

DK's and Templars can't escape with the press of a button. That is why they have heals.

Congratz, you just explained why different classes are different.

That explains why that is different, not the question I asked.

Those shields also provide additional utility:

Sun shield/Blazing shield does damage when it is broke.
Obsidian shield shields allies and can be morphed to increase healing done or do damage when the shield is broke.
Conjured ward only shields damage, Empowered Ward increases pet damage (lol) or Hardened Ward can increase the shield strength.

If Conjured ward and its morphs were to be switched to scale off of HP, would you say that it should be modified to also provide some form of utility? Because currently, it is only a survivability skill and nothing more.

As Joy_Division mentioned already, DKs and Templars also have heals that can be used in conjunction with their class shield, which synergize very well together: Constant blazing shields with rushed ceremony/breath of life to become very tanky and become a mobile AoE bomb of sorts that is highly threatening to melee players...and DKs who can use Ingeous shield to increase GDB effectiveness and heals to their team.

...While sorcs can cast their Ward and bolt escape away. So much utility, plz nerf.

Also keep in mind DK and Templar shields are useful regardless of which way they spec (magicka, stamina, or high HP tanks), while Sorcs shield is only useful if they spec into magicka.

I don't think the utility underneath the shield is a match for placing defense and offense parallel to each other with or without the strongest escape in the game, but that is a better answer to the question. Offense and defense are suppose to be perpendicular and that is the case for everyone else, even with shield + utility. The only free utility is on igneous shield, everything else sacrifices shields for shield + utility. Some, like frag shield even require 2 stats, but they all require you to lose offense to gain defense.

I think there is room to add utility to hardened ward under HP scaling. Certainly.

Snit

Armitas wrote: »

Offense and defense are suppose to be perpendicular and that is the case for everyone else

Magicka is a defensive stat for classes with good class heals (Templar/ DK). Stamina is a defensive stat for everyone (Block, Dodge Roll).

DPS and Survivability are largely parallel for most builds. This only changes if you decide to pick one particular tool out of many and look at shields in isolation. That is a fallacy. Heals, Block and Dodge Rolls are relevant in any discussion of defenses

RinaldoGandolphi

Armitas wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

Hardened Ward wouldn't be viable if it was based on health because sorcs have no health. A sorc can't put points into health or you wont be able to kill anyone.

Everyone else in the game suffers this same dilemma when using a shield. Why is it different for sorcs?

Because stamina users can stack their primary damage source and have 100% avoidance to all single target attacks outside curse and magicka detonation?

With the right dodge chance gear, stamina reduce cost enchants, and champ state passives, good luck hitting any of these folks with any single target attacks.

Folks are whining about ward, 2 months from now single target spells and bows will be useless.

20% free dodge chance + reduced dodge cost from med armor + stamina cost reduction makes dodge cheaper + champ passives to reduce dodge cost = all single target skills outside curse and magic detonation useless.

I'll tell ya what, make dodge roll a 15% chance to avoid damage, and ill entertain any ward or BE nerfs you want, I'm willing to compromise, are you?

Armitas

I don't disagree with anything either of you have said about stamina. That is its own problem. I do disagree about magicka being a defensive stat just because it is healing. Especially for gdb which is based on health.

They wrecked magicka builds with this release. It just so happens sorcs are the closest thing on par with stamina builds. But they should not change sorc while stamina remains what it is so that a least someone can compete. I disagree with this whole 1.6 meta of parallel offense and defense. The whole thing needs fixing not just ward. This was all suppose to have been done on PTS, but they pushed it through by taping it up with the global -15% shield/damage cyrodiil nerf.

Draehl

I can't speak for how burst damage builds fare against sorcs, but I can tell you as magicka/pseudo-tanky NB I can't do anything to burn through their shields. At all. Meanwhile they're spamming entropy/curse for shards procs and putting out rather strong damage. Why? Because their shield effectiveness scales via the same mechanism as their damage does. Then if a few of us try to team up to take 'em down, they simply blink away, with the Ball Lightning passive keeping us from immobilizing...

The same is true for Wrecking Blow DKs, though, so I'm not just pointing the finger at you guys specifically. Just that as of 1.6 there are certain builds that are able to achieve both high damage AND survivability without giving anything up... One or the other is fine, or a hybrid being modest at both is cool too... but one build shouldn't have both. I won't say any specific skill is OP, just the particular builds/playstyle currently being run by DKs & Sorcs feel out of control.

jrkhan

woodsro wrote: »

Hardened Ward wouldn't be viable if it was based on health because sorcs have no health. A sorc can't put points into health or you wont be able to kill anyone.

At 30k magic and such you would be hard pressed to get 11k crit on crystal frags, wrecking blow can hit for 20k easily, i have seen it.there is such a damage disparity right now that is totally slated in stamina favor. To offset this magic has slightly better defense. A sorc would have zero surviability if ward was based off health.

Snarky answer: of course sorcs have to stack magika to kill anyone, how else will they easily take down the damage shields of the other sorcs?

Sorcs have access to all of the same health boosting mechanics as other classes, I don't think sorcs would disproportionately (relative to other classes) hurt their offensive potential by putting points into health.

Also, the damage scaling on crystal shard is identical to that of wrecking blow. You are trading range and insta cast proc for major empower (Which you get for 'free' on a mages guild passive assuming you use either entropy or toggle mage light for the proc).
Please lookup thread on stat + damage ratios for each ability or do some in game testing with a friend,
"I once saw a 20k wrecking blow" was probably either in pve (where sneak attack is much higher), or after blocking a heavy attack (due to champ passive) perhaps while in execute range (if the appropriate morph is slotted) possibly after an aggressive war horn.

The medium armor weapon damage bonus + flawless dawnbreaker are the only things that would in normal circumstances allow for wrecking blow to hit any harder than crystal frags (correct me if I'm wrong), and here we're talking maybe 10% overall damage depending on stam/WD ratio.
My redguard sorc would be very happy if this "hardened ward" you speak of had a morph that scaled off hp or stam - I'm going to see how well I do with with bone shield and brawler for now (probably not so well)

IcyDeadPeople

Joy_Division wrote: »

DK and Templars, whose shields are based of health, can heal themselves with the press of a button. Sorcs can't.

They need to swap weapon bars to dismiss the clanfear, right?

Pancake-Tragedy

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DK and Templars, whose shields are based of health, can heal themselves with the press of a button. Sorcs can't.

They need to swap weapon bars to dismiss the clanfear, right?

Clannfear has a 1.3 sec cast time, so spamming it isn't an option.

Erock25

Draehl wrote: »

I can't speak for how burst damage builds fare against sorcs, but I can tell you as magicka/pseudo-tanky NB I can't do anything to burn through their shields. At all. Meanwhile they're spamming entropy/curse for shards procs and putting out rather strong damage. Why? Because their shield effectiveness scales via the same mechanism as their damage does. Then if a few of us try to team up to take 'em down, they simply blink away, with the Ball Lightning passive keeping us from immobilizing...

The same is true for Wrecking Blow DKs, though, so I'm not just pointing the finger at you guys specifically. Just that as of 1.6 there are certain builds that are able to achieve both high damage AND survivability without giving anything up... One or the other is fine, or a hybrid being modest at both is cool too... but one build shouldn't have both. I won't say any specific skill is OP, just the particular builds/playstyle currently being run by DKs & Sorcs feel out of control.

@Draehl I think you are definitely being reasonable here and not trying to fan the flames or anything. My counter to you is that you chose a build that may not be ideal for your class or ideal for fighting a sorc. It would be the same thing if I was rolling a stamina Sorc in PVP and complaining about other classes dominant builds. I'm not exactly what your build is, and I know some people do very well with burst damage in magicka NB build, but from my outside perspective stamina NB is doing quite awesome right now, at least against magicka Sorc that is..... lots of dodges, lots of burst damage.

Draehl

Erock25 wrote: »

Draehl wrote: »

I can't speak for how burst damage builds fare against sorcs, but I can tell you as magicka/pseudo-tanky NB I can't do anything to burn through their shields. At all. Meanwhile they're spamming entropy/curse for shards procs and putting out rather strong damage. Why? Because their shield effectiveness scales via the same mechanism as their damage does. Then if a few of us try to team up to take 'em down, they simply blink away, with the Ball Lightning passive keeping us from immobilizing...

The same is true for Wrecking Blow DKs, though, so I'm not just pointing the finger at you guys specifically. Just that as of 1.6 there are certain builds that are able to achieve both high damage AND survivability without giving anything up... One or the other is fine, or a hybrid being modest at both is cool too... but one build shouldn't have both. I won't say any specific skill is OP, just the particular builds/playstyle currently being run by DKs & Sorcs feel out of control.

@Draehl I think you are definitely being reasonable here and not trying to fan the flames or anything. My counter to you is that you chose a build that may not be ideal for your class or ideal for fighting a sorc. It would be the same thing if I was rolling a stamina Sorc in PVP and complaining about other classes dominant builds. I'm not exactly what your build is, and I know some people do very well with burst damage in magicka NB build, but from my outside perspective stamina NB is doing quite awesome right now, at least against magicka Sorc that is..... lots of dodges, lots of burst damage.

I'm built more for attrition (light/heavy mix) so the frustrating part is seeing these builds do so much burst damage while still having comparable (and arguably better) defenses to my own. It just doesn't seem like anything is being given up in comparison. I mean, I assume attrition is meant to be a viable option for NB given all the relevant skills in Shadow/Siphoning. And hey, Sypher has proven in his video magicka NB can work rather well- it just sucks to be pigeonholed into burst/assassin. Reminds me of the days in WoW when the far more interesting Affliction was so overshadowed by Destro 90% of the time. Anyway, not to give my life story, but I see my situation and compare it to sorcs with burst AND defense and can't help but get frustrated =D

Edit: And you're definitely right on the stamina sorc bit. They really need to do a better job about not catering to one "pet" build per class.