Is "Insightful" the new Black?

Alphashado

This is so utterly ridiculous. Are people SO eager to disagree or laugh at other people anonymously that they want to create a new word for it?

Pretty sad if you ask me. And the same people wonder why we keep losing options.

If you disagree or want to laugh, then man up and put your name on it. It takes 5 seconds to type "I disagree" and only a few more seconds to explain why

starkerealm

On reflection? No, it isn't. Because when someone picks insightful as a sarcastic response it feels more like they're the kind of person that has difficulty dressing themselves having their mind blown by something incredibly obvious then a true insult.

Artis

Soulshine wrote: »

From ESO Ask Us Anything today

Will we get a disagree button on the official forums in the future?
We are currently discussing adding agree and disagree—or possibly upvote and downvote—options to our official forums.

A simple upvote/downvote should have been set up in the first place. The silly button this/that and the point/rep system is totally meaningless. Simplicity is always better.

you don't get it. There will be no downvote button. It's better to have 3 upvote buttons than 1 though, because you could at least differ things and see if you would say a lot of funny stuff, a lot of stuff that people agreed with, a lot of stuff that people found insightful, etc.
If trolls keep doing what they were doing, you simply will have 1 upvote button and that's it. The forum will become much less interesting and diverse.

nerevarine1138

This is why we can't have nice things.

Seriously, if you want them to just take away all the buttons, then you're going about it the right way. And at this point, that seems like the best option, since too many people aren't mature enough to use the buttons correctly.

Soulshine

Artemis wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

From ESO Ask Us Anything today

Will we get a disagree button on the official forums in the future?
We are currently discussing adding agree and disagree—or possibly upvote and downvote—options to our official forums.

A simple upvote/downvote should have been set up in the first place. The silly button this/that and the point/rep system is totally meaningless. Simplicity is always better.

you don't get it. There will be no downvote button. It's better to have 3 upvote buttons than 1 though, because you could at least differ things and see if you would say a lot of funny stuff, a lot of stuff that people agreed with, a lot of stuff that people found insightful, etc.
If trolls keep doing what they were doing, you simply will have 1 upvote button and that's it. The forum will become much less interesting and diverse.

I dont have to "get" anything, ZoS is the entity here creating all this nonsense, so direct your arguements to them. Personally, when I agree, disagree, whathave you I post - as now; end of story. What They decide to so with their own silly system only time will tell.

Agobi

Armitas wrote: »

We have lost 2 buttons so far due to abuse. If we continue along this trend we will eventually have 0 feedback buttons.

Which,imo,is just as well....what the *bleep* is the point of having a feedback system in place where all the buttons are positive ?

(My guess is to make these forums look like a place with all sunshine and rainbows,where the unicorns frolic and play and all is well with the world )

Iago

if you silence all who oppose you, then all the world will hear how much your subjects love and admire you.

nerevarine1138

Iago wrote: »

if you silence all who oppose you, then all the world will hear how much your subjects love and admire you.

No one is being silenced. This is an internet forum for a game, not a forum of actual importance.

wraith808

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Iago wrote: »

if you silence all who oppose you, then all the world will hear how much your subjects love and admire you.

No one is being silenced. This is an internet forum for a game, not a forum of actual importance.

Exactly. And to come to a forum and try to co-opt what the owners intend by mob rule (notice I didn't say popular) is not only against the rules here, but also just bad form.

Sacadon

MasterSpatula wrote: »

If someone feels the need to belittle your comment with a button push but without actually taking the time to argue against you, you should take the vote as a badge of honor.

In this day and age, the social meta of pressing buttons like agree/disagree no longer represent dissent that is counterproductive.

Romo

Iago wrote: »

if you silence all who oppose you, then all the world will hear how much your subjects love and admire you.

As @nerevarine1138 said: No one is silencing you.

Quite the opposite, they are trying to get you to open up and actually discuss why you disagree.

firstdecan

Soulshine wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

From ESO Ask Us Anything today

Will we get a disagree button on the official forums in the future?
We are currently discussing adding agree and disagree—or possibly upvote and downvote—options to our official forums.

A simple upvote/downvote should have been set up in the first place. The silly button this/that and the point/rep system is totally meaningless. Simplicity is always better.

you don't get it. There will be no downvote button. It's better to have 3 upvote buttons than 1 though, because you could at least differ things and see if you would say a lot of funny stuff, a lot of stuff that people agreed with, a lot of stuff that people found insightful, etc.
If trolls keep doing what they were doing, you simply will have 1 upvote button and that's it. The forum will become much less interesting and diverse.

I dont have to "get" anything, ZoS is the entity here creating all this nonsense, so direct your arguements to them. Personally, when I agree, disagree, whathave you I post - as now; end of story. What They decide to so with their own silly system only time will tell.

I remember back in beta when the forums had a disagree button (not sure if it was there in November 2013 when you registered). It was mostly used for trolling, individuals who wanted to shout down a particular thread would disagree with every post in the thread, regardless of the contents of a particular post. They would also troll by disagreeing with everything a particular poster posted, regardless of content.

A disagree button would work well if it was used as intended: to add a +/- 1 to one side of an argument in a debate. It's generally not used that way, even if you and a few others are mature enough to do so.

If the buttons were used as intended, it would flag certain posts for ZoS that are hot topics. If LOLs were used for funny posts, ZoS knows that those are just in for entertainment. If a post gets a lot of agrees, ZoS knows "the community" supports something well stated, and they can read and consider the point. If a post gets a lot of insightfuls, there may be unique perception in that point, again something for ZoS to consider. When we start using the buttons for something other than what they are intended, all we do is ruin ZoS' ability to filter through the forums and get to the meaty parts of ongoing conversations.

A "disagree" button would fit in well with that, but the community has proven they are not mature enough to use the button as intended. This is further evidenced by the very premise of this post, that other buttons ZoS uses to filter feedback should be coopted just to be vitriolic. The only currently available option to disagree is to post a counter argument in a debate, or agree with a counter argument in a debate. "The community," or more likely a few bad apples in it, has shown that they are not mature enough to handle an open feedback mechanism in a productive manner.

The only way ZoS could bring back the LOL and disagree buttons is if they were used as intended, and if they weren't abused by angry "manlets" venting their generally pervasive frustration unproductively in an internet forum. As new buttons are coopted for that end, those options will be taken away as well until the only option is "agree."

edit: for typos

Soulshine

firstdecan wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

From ESO Ask Us Anything today

Will we get a disagree button on the official forums in the future?
We are currently discussing adding agree and disagree—or possibly upvote and downvote—options to our official forums.

A simple upvote/downvote should have been set up in the first place. The silly button this/that and the point/rep system is totally meaningless. Simplicity is always better.

you don't get it. There will be no downvote button. It's better to have 3 upvote buttons than 1 though, because you could at least differ things and see if you would say a lot of funny stuff, a lot of stuff that people agreed with, a lot of stuff that people found insightful, etc.
If trolls keep doing what they were doing, you simply will have 1 upvote button and that's it. The forum will become much less interesting and diverse.

I dont have to "get" anything, ZoS is the entity here creating all this nonsense, so direct your arguements to them. Personally, when I agree, disagree, whathave you I post - as now; end of story. What They decide to so with their own silly system only time will tell.

I remember back in beta when the forums had a disagree button (not sure if it was there in November 2013 when you registered). It was mostly used for trolling, individuals who wanted to shout down a particular thread would disagree with every post in the thread, regardless of the contents of a particular post. They would also troll by disagreeing with everything a particular poster posted, regardless of content.

A disagree button would work well if it was used as intended: to add a +/- 1 to one side of an argument in a debate. It's generally not used that way, even if you and a few others are mature enough to do so.

If the buttons were used as intended, it would flag certain posts for ZoS that are hot topics. If LOLs were used for funny posts, ZoS knows that those are just in for entertainment. If a post gets a lot of agrees, ZoS knows "the community" supports something well stated, and they can read and consider the point. If a post gets a lot of insightfuls, there may be unique perception in that point, again something for ZoS to consider. When we start using the buttons for something other than what they are intended, all we do is ruin ZoS' ability to filter though the forums and get to the meaty parts of ongoing conversations.

A "disagree" button would fit in well with that, but the community has proven they are not mature enough to use the button as intended. This is further evidenced by the very premise of this post, that other buttons ZoS uses to filter feedback should be coopted just to be vitriolic. The only currently available option to disagree is to post a counter argument in a debate, or agree with a counter argument in a debate. "The community," or more likely a few bad apples in it, has shown that they are not mature enough to handle an open feedback mechanism in a productive manner.

The only way ZoS could bring back the LOL and disagree buttons is if they were used as intended, and if they weren't abused by angry "manlets" venting their generally pervasive frustration unproductively in an internet forum. As new buttons are coopted for that end, those options will be taken away as well until the only option is "agree."

I agree with your points. I am merely pointing out what we already know: people here have proven they won't use them in the manner intended. Again the post was from ZoS not mine.

Back during beta was indeed when this entire issue got started, since ZoS made the ridiculous decision to tie the button mashing to points on a profile. "Disagree" resulted in points being removed and THAT is what lead to all the complaining since trolls were indeed looking up individual players and mashing "disagree" on every single post they could find of who they didn't like. Profiles lost their little stars and people were mad.

Instead of recongnizing this point system was the real issue, ZoS chose to simply eliminate the "disagree." They also never returned the negative point sum, by the way. Now we have... what? Some people trolled into 5K forum points for trolled LOLs instead.

Most game forums now tend to keep it simple for a reason, and we know what that reason is. The fact ZoS says they are now considering just the upvote/downvote is rather overdue here considering the pattern people have set.

Heishi

Soulshine wrote: »

firstdecan wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

From ESO Ask Us Anything today

Will we get a disagree button on the official forums in the future?
We are currently discussing adding agree and disagree—or possibly upvote and downvote—options to our official forums.

A simple upvote/downvote should have been set up in the first place. The silly button this/that and the point/rep system is totally meaningless. Simplicity is always better.

you don't get it. There will be no downvote button. It's better to have 3 upvote buttons than 1 though, because you could at least differ things and see if you would say a lot of funny stuff, a lot of stuff that people agreed with, a lot of stuff that people found insightful, etc.
If trolls keep doing what they were doing, you simply will have 1 upvote button and that's it. The forum will become much less interesting and diverse.

I dont have to "get" anything, ZoS is the entity here creating all this nonsense, so direct your arguements to them. Personally, when I agree, disagree, whathave you I post - as now; end of story. What They decide to so with their own silly system only time will tell.

I remember back in beta when the forums had a disagree button (not sure if it was there in November 2013 when you registered). It was mostly used for trolling, individuals who wanted to shout down a particular thread would disagree with every post in the thread, regardless of the contents of a particular post. They would also troll by disagreeing with everything a particular poster posted, regardless of content.

A disagree button would work well if it was used as intended: to add a +/- 1 to one side of an argument in a debate. It's generally not used that way, even if you and a few others are mature enough to do so.

If the buttons were used as intended, it would flag certain posts for ZoS that are hot topics. If LOLs were used for funny posts, ZoS knows that those are just in for entertainment. If a post gets a lot of agrees, ZoS knows "the community" supports something well stated, and they can read and consider the point. If a post gets a lot of insightfuls, there may be unique perception in that point, again something for ZoS to consider. When we start using the buttons for something other than what they are intended, all we do is ruin ZoS' ability to filter though the forums and get to the meaty parts of ongoing conversations.

A "disagree" button would fit in well with that, but the community has proven they are not mature enough to use the button as intended. This is further evidenced by the very premise of this post, that other buttons ZoS uses to filter feedback should be coopted just to be vitriolic. The only currently available option to disagree is to post a counter argument in a debate, or agree with a counter argument in a debate. "The community," or more likely a few bad apples in it, has shown that they are not mature enough to handle an open feedback mechanism in a productive manner.

The only way ZoS could bring back the LOL and disagree buttons is if they were used as intended, and if they weren't abused by angry "manlets" venting their generally pervasive frustration unproductively in an internet forum. As new buttons are coopted for that end, those options will be taken away as well until the only option is "agree."

I agree with your points. I am merely pointing out what we already know: people here have proven they won't use them in the manner intended. Again the post was from ZoS not mine.

Back during beta was indeed when this entire issue got started, since ZoS made the ridiculous decision to tie the button mashing to points on a profile. "Disagree" resulted in points being removed and THAT is what lead to all the complaining since trolls were indeed looking up individual players and mashing "disagree" on every single post they could find of who they didn't like. Profiles lost their little stars and people were mad.

Instead of recongnizing this point system was the real issue, ZoS chose to simply eliminate the "disagree." They also never returned the negative point sum, by the way. Now we have... what? Some people trolled into 5K forum points for trolled LOLs instead.

Most game forums now tend to keep it simple for a reason, and we know what that reason is. The fact ZoS says they are now considering just the upvote/downvote is rather overdue here considering the pattern people have set.

I agree with the points as well. @firstdecan The disagree button was still there when I joined beta in Feb '14 but removed not long after. I think a disagree button would be fine if it just acted as a neutral button which didn't give or take away points.. The using LOL as a disagree button went on for a long time, plenty of time that ZOS should have known there was a need for a better solution and people were not going to just suddenly stop.

A lot of people use the excuse "If you disagree why don't you just make a post explaining why you disagree". I don't know about others, but a lot of the time, by the time I actually get to a topic and find a comment i disagree with, someone or between a few people all the points I would make were already made. I'm not wasting the time to just make a post that says I agree with __ and __.

Now the argument could be made that you can just use the agree button for the ones you agree with, and I do. It would still be much easier to look at an OP and see how many agree and disagree rather than read through 20 pages of post and seeing how many agree.

Again, I can't speak for others, but a lot of times in say a 5 page thread the topic has changed since page 3 and in some cases if a thread was necro'd page 3 could have been months ago, which makes it pointless to reply.

Personally, I think that a disagree button could cut down on some of the rage. Of course this might only be by a small amount or I could just be wrong, but I think for some they could just rage click disagrees and go on to other thread rather than writing a post where they progressively get more and more angry as they think about it more and more.

Either way, the fact is people are always going to disagree, not everyone wants to go into why they disagree or say something that they're sure would start an argument, so a disagree button that doesn't give points but can't be abused by taking away points would be great. Then we could have the LOL button back for the many post which are not really something to agree with, not really insightful, not really awesome but just funny. Using a simplified up/down vote is A solution but it really cheapens the system.

I also miss custom avatars. It does give the forum a pit more uniform feel, but sometimes too much so. I know in beta, I used a headshot of my main, but I can get not everyone would use an ESO related avatar and it could cause problems. I get the no signature images, it would be cool to show of your guild or maybe a showcase of chars, but again, not everyone would use an ESO related sig and it could cause problems.

Morshire

So great...if Insightful is the new black, then my 2 insightfuls mean I am an idiot now? Aw man, this is getting confusing. If someone doesn't like the post, they put insightful.....but if the post has meaning, it is insightful....so anything I say is just stupid? WTF. So is there a cap? I mean 200 insightfuls means I am a jackass and should go jump off a cliff? 300 insightfuls means (assuming I ignored the 200 previous rule) I am utterly useless for conversation and should cut out my tongue? And is that all insighfuls? Even previous ones? Is there a time stamp on them so I can judge when they happened and if this rule applies? WHY OH WHY MUST IT BE SO CONFUSING? Is there a rule book I can go read? Anyone.......???????

Oh great, I just got another Insightful.........AH crap

Snit

We need "insightful" to remain the old "insightful." Some people post some amazing stuff, stuff worth recognizing. That's more important than being able to indicate disagreement.

That said, we also need a way to indicate disagreement. ZOS is being a bit shortsighted if they think they can prevent people from ridiculing others on a message board simply by removing a button. You can't stop that behavior, so you might as well provide an outlet for it. Bring back "LOL" or add "Disagree," please.

This really isn't that complicated. Message boards weren't invented in 2014, so you shouldn't need two months and twelve meetings to address this already-solved problem.

wookiefriseur

Hello people from February, I am from the future. Just wanted to drop in and tell you that LOL is not lost, there is still hope.

Though at the moment there is no way for people with standard user rights to add new LOLs, there is still the possibility to have a look at previous LOLs, which have been conserved for future generations (17.03.2015++). They will be able to see how people used to LOL in the pre-Insightful era and may be able to revive it:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/de/profile/reactions/943338/Patros?reaction=lol

Just click on a reaction filter in any user profile and then change the reaction in the url accordingly. Disagree would work too, if there were any topics left from that time, but that was during the Merethic Era.


I remember when the end of LOL was imminent and it looked for shelter in a potion's tooltip:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/de/discussion/150067/panacea-of-weapon-power-lolol/p1

Don't know where it went after that, but I'm sure it's still out there, somewhere.

Crica

Artemiisia wrote: »

why are you watching my internet doings?

tallenn

Nestor wrote: »

Why can't posting why you don't agree with someone be the new LOL?

Along those same lines, why isn't posting why you don't agree AND having a designated disagree button (a new LOL, if you will) just as viable?

On the other hand, why wade through a ton of posts that basically just say "disagree" and little else, when a button would work as well, and take up far less space?

Tabbycat

At this point I think ZOS should just take away all the buttons because of obvious reasons I'm too lazy to point out.

Bookwyrm

Soulshine wrote: »

From ESO Ask Us Anything today

Will we get a disagree button on the official forums in the future?
We are currently discussing adding agree and disagree—or possibly upvote and downvote—options to our official forums.

A simple upvote/downvote should have been set up in the first place. The silly button this/that and the point/rep system is totally meaningless. Simplicity is always better.

I both agree and disagree. An agree/disagree system works for me, but I've always loathed the "upvote/downvote" thing, because it's just a fantastic way for trolls to bring the most irrelevant posts to the top of a feed and remove/hide actual discourse. I'd rather not see that happen here.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO

Why do we need a button at all then, why don't we just POST that we agree or disagree or find a post insightful. See where that logic gets you.

Snit

kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »

Why do we need a button at all then, why don't we just POST that we agree or disagree or find a post insightful. See where that logic gets you.

We need the buttons because humans like to interact with each other, to toss their two cents in, even when they lack the time or inclination to detail those thoughts. The buttons satisfy the urge to join the conversation in a minimal way.

Heck, it's better than a long strong of "+1" posts.

We do need a "disagree" or a "lol" or something to indicate a negative reaction, though. If anyone's feelings are hurt by people 'abusing' that, they probably shouldn't be allowed on the internet.

Tabbycat

Better yet... they should remove all buttons except for Agree. Bwahahaha.

golfer.dub17_ESO

I've never used it as a LOL and I would hope other people don't either.

I use it for informative posts, as it's intended to be.