Spell Damage > Raw Magicka

Menelaos

Hi folks,
I am currently looking for an overview or a table showing a comparison of spell damage increase (like in sets) versus raw magicka increase (like in sets or attribute allocation), when it comes to damage output for a purely magicka based build. I know there was such a table handed around somewhere but for the love of sponge I caanot seem to find it. In a nutshell: Until what threshold is increasing spell damage more effective than raw magicka?

Please, if anybody could just post me the link or post said chart in here I would be most grateful.

Thanks in advance!

Gyudan

Magical damage dealt = (10.46*Spell damage + Max Magicka) * COEFF.

1 spell damage is worth 10.46 Max magicka for pure damage output.

edit: woops, fixed.

evedgebah

Also: 664 Crit is roughly equivalent to 3% Crit at V14 for your further comparisons of gear.

alkoriak

Gyudan wrote: »

Magical damage dealt = (Spell damage + 10.46*Max Magicka) * COEFF.

1 spell damage is worth 10.46 Max magicka for pure damage output.

That's not what I read from the formula, seems to me 1 pt in max magicka is more important than spell damage because it gets multiplied by 10.46. Or is the formula not accurate?

pppontus

alkoriak wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

Magical damage dealt = (Spell damage + 10.46*Max Magicka) * COEFF.

1 spell damage is worth 10.46 Max magicka for pure damage output.

That's not what I read from the formula, seems to me 1 pt in max magicka is more important than spell damage because it gets multiplied by 10.46. Or is the formula not accurate?

It's written backwards. It's: Power * 10.46 + Magicka

alkoriak

Ah ok, just a typo then, thanks .

Garkin

evedgebah wrote: »

Also: 664 Crit is roughly equivalent to 3% Crit at V14 for your further comparisons of gear.

100% crit chance = 2 * (level + veteran rank) * (100 + level + veteran rank) crit rating

VR14: 2 * (50 + 14) * (100 + 50 + 14) = 20992 crit rating to get 100% crit chance.
Lvl 10: 2 * (10 + 0) * (100 + 10 + 0) = 2200 crit rating to get 100% crit chance

So, 664 crit rating is 3.1631% crit chance at VR14 (664 / 20992 * 100 = 3.1631).

Menelaos

So say, a given piece of equipment yields 164 Spell Damage. That would account for 1.715,44 points of Magicka, if Magicka were "translated" into Spell Damage?

I am currently comparing Martial Knowledge, Adroitness, Magnus' Gift, Warlock and Necropotence (among others) for a non-Pet DPS-oriented build up to 4th bonus in any given set. Taking that as an example, Necropotence up to 4th bonus would yield me 248,375 Spell Damage (triple +866 Magicka /10.46) ?

madangrypally

Yes, but this is only the smaller picture.

164 Spell Damage is similar to 1715 Max Magicka at the base.

Max Magicka: This is used to scale damage, have a larger casting pool, and a few damage shields scale from this.

Spell Damage: Used to scale damage/healing.

There is also other passives to take into consideration. Have increase spell damage and increased max magicka can have a great effect on the above numbers..

Lets assume 164 Spell Damage. If a player has 30% increase spell damage passives/buffs then 164*1.3 = 213.2 spell damage. Thus 164 raw spell damage now equals 2230 Max Magicka because the raw damage got buffed to 213.2 spell damage. (rounding will effect actual numbers a little).

Max Magicka can go through similar shifts. If a player has massive max magicka percent buffs then adding raw max magicka will be that much better.

I do not think its simple to spell damage is always the better choice. Need to look at your planned build and what gear is available.

Joy_Division

Menelaos wrote: »

So say, a given piece of equipment yields 164 Spell Damage. That would account for 1.715,44 points of Magicka, if Magicka were "translated" into Spell Damage?

I am currently comparing Martial Knowledge, Adroitness, Magnus' Gift, Warlock and Necropotence (among others) for a non-Pet DPS-oriented build up to 4th bonus in any given set. Taking that as an example, Necropotence up to 4th bonus would yield me 248,375 Spell Damage (triple +866 Magicka /10.46) ?

That's how I read it as well...of course the 1,715 magicka would give you more sustain while doing the same amount of damage.

With all the being said, the Martial Knowledge set, specifically 4 piece version of it, looks to be the best magicka DPS set in the game. I wish there was no such a clear winner and there would be more appealing gear choices, but as of right now that looks to be a very strong set.

DeLindsay

Menelaos wrote: »

I am currently comparing Martial Knowledge, Adroitness, Magnus' Gift, Warlock and Necropotence (among others) for a non-Pet DPS-oriented build up to 4th bonus in any given set. Taking that as an example, Necropotence up to 4th bonus would yield me 248,375 Spell Damage (triple +866 Magicka /10.46) ?

Martial Knowledge > everything else, even Trial gear at this point. But getting full VR14 is either a pain time wise or expensive cost wise, VR13 is absurdly easy to get and super cheap. In 1.6 without soft caps it makes a noticeable difference going from VR13 > VR14 and even Epic to Legendary.

madangrypally wrote: »

Max Magicka can go through similar shifts. If a player has massive max magicka percent buffs then adding raw max magicka will be that much better.

That's not going to be true unless either Magicka set bonuses double or ZoS adds a ton of even stronger increased Magicka Passives. As it sits right now the Magicka set bonus at VR14 Legendary with every Passive in the game (trying to stack Magicka) is only going to net you ~1180 Magicka per set bonus, which is no where near what a Legendary Spell Damage set bonus gets you damage wise, even without using Structured Entropy or being a Sorc stacking Spell Damage.

Rook_Master

Garkin wrote: »

evedgebah wrote: »

Also: 664 Crit is roughly equivalent to 3% Crit at V14 for your further comparisons of gear.

100% crit chance = 2 * level * (100 + level) crit rating

VR14: 2 * 64 * (100 + 64) = 20992 crit rating to get 100% crit chance.
Lvl 10: 2 * 10 * (100 + 10) = 2200 crit rating to get 100% crit chance

So, 664 crit rating is 3.1631% crit chance at VR14 (664 / 20992 * 100 = 3.1631).

Isn't V14 actually Level 63?

49+14 = 63

Or is that not the case?

Menelaos

I think that was at least the case when ZOS released their first CP calculations for starters. They said Level 50 and Vet 1 were the same thing so they based their CP things on 50+13. I don't know if that's the case, too, with any other level-based calculations.

Taonnor

Menelaos wrote: »

Please, if anybody could just post me the link or post said chart in here I would be most grateful.

See:

Damage calculation with 1.6
lux-dei.de/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=883

Maximum dmg set
lux-dei.de/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=884

These posts are in german, try to translate yourself.


The damage calculation link on this thread -> forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/149498/new-dps-calculations

RinaldoGandolphi

I'm not sold on Martial Knowledge being the best, that set stinks for sustain.

As a caster, your better off stacking regen, cost reduction, and max magic, all of which martial knowledge doesn't do...martial knowledge is good for certain bursts, but your more likely to run out of smack with it then other sets, other sets ensure you never run out of smack and takes pressure off healers because you wont be forced to spam spell sym.

Just my 2 cents, anything that gives you a larger mama pool or allows you to cast more spells per bar is better then increasing damage per spell slightly, just my take.

Menelaos

Taonnor wrote: »

These posts are in german, try to translate yourself.

Die Links von dir helfen mir schon sehr viel weiter. Dank dir!
Wenn's für dich okay ist, nehme ich die Links zu euch und setze die bei uns ins Forum?

Immer senkrecht!

DeLindsay

woodsro wrote: »

I'm not sold on Martial Knowledge being the best, that set stinks for sustain.

Then please list for us all the current end game Magicka DPS sets that have Magicka regen on them, hint there's none. Also NOBODY doing top DPS numbers in SO (that's DK, then NB) uses cost reduction Glyphs on their Jewelry, they all use Spell Damage. Not being sustainable from a Magicka pool perspective has literally zero to do with top DPS. You either use SA (NB), DC (Sorc) or SS (all Classes) plus pots and Heavy attacks to keep from OOM'ing yourself.

The Magicka "sustain" from MK is literally no different whatsoever than current end game DPS builds.

Gandogal

Since we will always have the +spelldamage bonus from entropy up, spell damage will even more worth (1, 2x) whenboth stats equal eafh other at the aforementioned formular, right?

s7732425ub17_ESO

DeLindsay wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

I'm not sold on Martial Knowledge being the best, that set stinks for sustain.

Then please list for us all the current end game Magicka DPS sets that have Magicka regen on them, hint there's none. Also NOBODY doing top DPS numbers in SO (that's DK, then NB) uses cost reduction Glyphs on their Jewelry, they all use Spell Damage. Not being sustainable from a Magicka pool perspective has literally zero to do with top DPS. You either use SA (NB), DC (Sorc) or SS (all Classes) plus pots and Heavy attacks to keep from OOM'ing yourself.

The Magicka "sustain" from MK is literally no different whatsoever than current end game DPS builds.

This brings up an interesting point. It's best to use a sustain set when doing content where you will not be spamming spell pots. This would be Vet Dungeons, non-competitive Trial groups, and Craglorn stuff. If you are doing difficult content, such as timed Trials or hardmode Trials, it's much more beneficial to bring top DPS gear and sustain yourself by potion spamming.

DeLindsay

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

This brings up an interesting point. It's best to use a sustain set when doing content where you will not be spamming spell pots. This would be Vet Dungeons, non-competitive Trial groups, and Craglorn stuff. If you are doing difficult content, such as timed Trials or hardmode Trials, it's much more beneficial to bring top DPS gear and sustain yourself by potion spamming.

I agree completely with that statement.

RinaldoGandolphi

DeLindsay wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

I'm not sold on Martial Knowledge being the best, that set stinks for sustain.

Then please list for us all the current end game Magicka DPS sets that have Magicka regen on them, hint there's none. Also NOBODY doing top DPS numbers in SO (that's DK, then NB) uses cost reduction Glyphs on their Jewelry, they all use Spell Damage. Not being sustainable from a Magicka pool perspective has literally zero to do with top DPS. You either use SA (NB), DC (Sorc) or SS (all Classes) plus pots and Heavy attacks to keep from OOM'ing yourself.

The Magicka "sustain" from MK is literally no different whatsoever than current end game DPS builds.

What's classified as "end game" is that not a matter of taste? I see any set vet 10 or higher as viable endgame. So their are lots of gear in those ranges that have magic regen.

I don't care what others use in SO, I run a heavy armor sorc battlemage in pvp and kill folks wearing the warlock + seducer fotm all the time. It matters little, I have cleared both AA and hel Ra wearing the same heavy armor sorc build with crushing shock, folks say it's not viable, I disagree as I have been in the weekly leaderboards to get gold items numerous times.

I say use whatever your comfortable with, their are hundreds of ways to skin the same cat.

Septimus_Magna

woodsro wrote: »

I'm not sold on Martial Knowledge being the best, that set stinks for sustain.

As a caster, your better off stacking regen, cost reduction, and max magic, all of which martial knowledge doesn't do...martial knowledge is good for certain bursts, but your more likely to run out of smack with it then other sets, other sets ensure you never run out of smack and takes pressure off healers because you wont be forced to spam spell sym.

Just my 2 cents, anything that gives you a larger mama pool or allows you to cast more spells per bar is better then increasing damage per spell slightly, just my take.

It depends on the situation, class, race, gear and other passives (such as vampire and former emperor) I think. During trails you should have less problem sustaining magicka when people are using buffs like elemental drain and siphon spirit. And even if you do run out of magicka you can use spell symmetry to quickly regain magicka. Therefore max magicka, magicka regen and magicka cost reduction arent big factors in sustain so spell damage is the better for dps. Also there are CS passives which increase magicak regen so its possible to get sustain from other sources than gear alone.

On the pts Im using 2x Torug's Pact, 4x Martial Knowledge, 3x Arch-Mage, 2x Cyrodiil Light and reach little over 2000 spell damage. I also tried stacking max magicka to 32k but that resulted in something like 10% less dps.

Garkin

Rook_Master wrote: »

Garkin wrote: »

evedgebah wrote: »

Also: 664 Crit is roughly equivalent to 3% Crit at V14 for your further comparisons of gear.

100% crit chance = 2 * level * (100 + level) crit rating

VR14: 2 * 64 * (100 + 64) = 20992 crit rating to get 100% crit chance.
Lvl 10: 2 * 10 * (100 + 10) = 2200 crit rating to get 100% crit chance

So, 664 crit rating is 3.1631% crit chance at VR14 (664 / 20992 * 100 = 3.1631).

Isn't V14 actually Level 63?

49+14 = 63

Or is that not the case?

I have edited my original post, correct formula is:
2 * (level + veteran rank) * (100 + level + veteran rank)

You can confirm rating to percent conversion using the function:
* GetCriticalStrikeChance(*number* _statValue_, *bool* _useMin_)
** _Returns:_ *number* _chance_

Joy_Division

woodsro wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

I'm not sold on Martial Knowledge being the best, that set stinks for sustain.

Then please list for us all the current end game Magicka DPS sets that have Magicka regen on them, hint there's none. Also NOBODY doing top DPS numbers in SO (that's DK, then NB) uses cost reduction Glyphs on their Jewelry, they all use Spell Damage. Not being sustainable from a Magicka pool perspective has literally zero to do with top DPS. You either use SA (NB), DC (Sorc) or SS (all Classes) plus pots and Heavy attacks to keep from OOM'ing yourself.

The Magicka "sustain" from MK is literally no different whatsoever than current end game DPS builds.

What's classified as "end game" is that not a matter of taste? I see any set vet 10 or higher as viable endgame. So their are lots of gear in those ranges that have magic regen.

I don't care what others use in SO, I run a heavy armor sorc battlemage in pvp and kill folks wearing the warlock + seducer fotm all the time. It matters little, I have cleared both AA and hel Ra wearing the same heavy armor sorc build with crushing shock, folks say it's not viable, I disagree as I have been in the weekly leaderboards to get gold items numerous times.

I say use whatever your comfortable with, their are hundreds of ways to skin the same cat.

To your first question, I would answer "no." In a single player game such as Skyrim then that is the case, but in this game you are competing against other players and substance trumps style.

There is a difference between being able to complete content and beating another person while doing it. To stay with 1.5 as that is what we know, you will most certainly not slap on a full VR10 set of Ashen Grip armor and contribute to your raid's trial run more effectively than I will wearing Infallible Aether gear. We will both skin the proverbial cat, but my raid group will do it faster than yours. In a game of competition, Zenimax owes us a responsibility that one taste does not substantially outperform another taste.

At least from a PvE perspective, DeLindsay is right in this regard, Magicka recovery is trivial in group situations where a healer can circumvent the ostensible penalty of casting spell symmetry. Using heavy attacks is a *massive* DPS loss: at best you can do about 300 per second - and that is with gear devoted to them. Of course the less often you spell symmetry the more often you are actually casting spells, but casting spell symmetry is much faster than a heavy attack, you get more magicka back, and using activates very useful passives (increase damage + reduce cost). The game would be healthier if the best gear was not clear cut.

PvP is different of course because often times you do not have a dedicated healer to circumvent the health loss or a dedicated tank to ensure you are not targeted. Spell symmetry is a very dicey proposition in this setting and here natural resource recovery is very important. There is no obvious choice in PvP and I would say ZoS has done a resonable job offering diversity in this regard.

olsborg

Im fairly certain, after 1.6 release, any none-stamina builds are gonna be forced to use arena set in pvp to be sustainable in combat.

Magicka sorcs will most likely be using reduce magicka costs. Most of us will be at and around 15k stamina. CC break costs around 6k stamina (during my 30 minute test without arena) and stamina regen aint fantastic.

In my opinion, the reduce stamina cost jewlery glyphs are far superior to the magicka reduce cost, since stamina version reduce the cost of both cc break, dodge roll and the ability usage itself.

byrom101b16_ESO

I have been testing these three gear setups on my Sorc on the PTS.

Head - Valkyn Skoria / Martial Knowledge / Valkyn Skoria
Shoulders - Valkyn Skoria / Martial Knowledge / Valkyn Skoria
Body - Torug's Pact / Torug's Pact / Torug's Pact
Belt - Adroitness / Adriotness / Aether
Gloves - Aether / Martial Knowledge / Healer's
Breeches - Aether / Martial Knowledge / Aether
Boots - Aether / Martial Knowledge / Aether
Pendant - Adroitness / Adroitness / Healer's
Rings - 2 x Cyrodils Light / 2 x Cyrodils Light / Healer's
Staffs - Both Destro - Torug's Pact / Torug's Pact / Torug's Pact

... and you know what?

There isn't that much difference due to variables of dps and sustain between the different setups.

So both sides of the arguement have validity here.

I also have a full set of Seducer's and the Warlock jewelry and 2 peices. That makes life easy on sustain but dps is crapola.

It would be nice if Sorc abilities weren't the most expensive in the cost:effect:damage ratio department.

Still can't figure out why Zenimax would nerf our cost reductions on the back of already being the most resource hungry class without being the best dps as recompense...

They really don't like the class or something...

Septimus_Magna

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

I have been testing these three gear setups on my Sorc on the PTS.

Head - Valkyn Skoria / Martial Knowledge / Valkyn Skoria
Shoulders - Valkyn Skoria / Martial Knowledge / Valkyn Skoria
Body - Torug's Pact / Torug's Pact / Torug's Pact
Belt - Adroitness / Adriotness / Aether
Gloves - Aether / Martial Knowledge / Healer's
Breeches - Aether / Martial Knowledge / Aether
Boots - Aether / Martial Knowledge / Aether
Pendant - Adroitness / Adroitness / Healer's
Rings - 2 x Cyrodils Light / 2 x Cyrodils Light / Healer's
Staffs - Both Destro - Torug's Pact / Torug's Pact / Torug's Pact

... and you know what?

There isn't that much difference due to variables of dps and sustain between the different setups.

So both sides of the arguement have validity here.

Could you elaborate about these differences? And how did you test this? Short solo fights or long group fights? I can see Valkyn working great for dps on long boss fights in combination with high spell damage, multiple dots and meteor.

I tried 4x Martial Knowledge / 3x Arch-Mage / 2x Torug's Pact / 2x Cyrodiil's Light on my Altmer Sorcerer and could get little over 2k spell damage which made crystal frags proc hit for 10k without critting.

cschwingeb14_ESO

While you can get +20% spell damage easily enough, it's also possible to get +40% magicka or more, depending on gear, race and abilities. While it's not the same level of damage as spell damage, there are other advantages for certain classes. Sorcs and shield/pets. Night blades and siphoning strikes.

Lastly, dropping a set bonus by going 2x, 3x,3x,4x instead of 4x,4x,4x is a huge waste. Two magicka bonuses (or magicka and health, due to the way you can allocate stats) is worth more than one spell power bonus

Menelaos

To throw in another piece of the meal:

Does Spell Penetration have any effect on heals on allies? Does it increase outgoing heals in any way or is Spell Penetration useless for healers?

Menelaos

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

Sorcs and shield/pets. Night blades and siphoning strikes.

I was specifically looking for a non-Pet DPS-build, but of course with posts being added to the ongoing thread it's viable to think of that as well.

Right now I am trying 4x Martial Knowledge, 3x Adroitness, 2x Torug's Pact and 2 Rings of "Wrath of the Imperium" which will have their set bonuses revamped to 2) +xx Spell Damage and 3) +xx Spell Critical.

I experimented with a throw-in of some Necropotence set items but they have neither boosted my DPS (as I intend to play non-Pet), nor did they improve my sustain significantly.

cschwingeb14_ESO

Hopefully they fix the imperium set. It was delivering a much lower amount of spell damage and crit than other sets. I think I remember fifty-something in 1.6.3.

An alternate option would be cyrodiil's light for spell damage.

Master's weapons are just so good for gearing options at the moment. If you have one you can go 4x martial, 4x cyrodiil, 2x adroitness and 1x masters. While you would lose one spell power set bonus, you would gain two magicka bonuses. Which will be a dps and utility gain for most setups