Talons and CC Immunity?

Panda244

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

THE biggest issue is layers of cc at the same time completely shutting down your bar and being unbreakable, hope they fix that.

Indeed, and that's why talons (instant cast & area effect) are a CC (crowd control) and needs some immunity after one break free. Otherwise it becomes a hard CC, that is making you unable to do anything about it.
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Talons is not considered a CC ability in ESO, the only abilities that count as CC's are abilities that stun your character and make you lose all control. Fear, Crystal Shards, Dragon Leap, Invasion, etc.

Talons has a valid counter, three of them actually, Rapid Maneuvers, Purge, Roll Dodge... You can choose to get out of by using Magic or Stamina, so both build-archetypes, Magic and Stamina, have an option to get out of it. As for this getting stunned and Talons'd and then being unable to break out of it, I haven't had this happen to me since patch 1.4, so I think you guys are just bring old bugs into the mix. If this still is an issue, then fix it. But Talons in no way needs to be changed, if they change it then they have to change every Root ability in the game because of it, because Talons IS NOT a CC ability, and neither are the rest of the Roots. Change one, change them all.

Cody

panda, medium armor users cannot "roll endlessly" they can roll about 7-10 times; that is not endlessly. I myself can only roll 7.

Armitas

They should allow talons to be broken free of, and provide immunity at the end of the 4 second duration, nothing more. Having immunity after you roll out would be ridiculous. A DK could hit talons on a 6 or even 70 man raid and give them all CC immunity from a .5 second root that was rolled out of. You can't provide immunity to an entire zerg because they had .5 seconds worth of a root let alone the fact that you are then preventing any useful CC from occurring, like fear, due to the cheaply granted immunity you just gave everyone.

If rolling out of talons gave immunity then no one would be allowed to use talons in pvp. Just delete the skill for pvp at that point.

Armitas

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

Simple solution: Have talons break on damage from any source.

You get one hit free, the rest you have to work / spam for, without your targets running out of stamina fast (and at least for stamina builds) unable to fight back.

That would immediately break it for PvE tanking. When we tank this is what we use to keep the mobs clustered and off the squishies. If it breaks on any damage source then it will be broken immediately on cast by the DPS in the group.

jopeymonster

Armitas wrote: »

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

Simple solution: Have talons break on damage from any source.

You get one hit free, the rest you have to work / spam for, without your targets running out of stamina fast (and at least for stamina builds) unable to fight back.

That would immediately break it for PvE tanking. When we tank this is what we use to keep the mobs clustered and off the squishies. If it breaks on any damage source then it will be broken immediately on cast by the DPS in the group.

No, this would require SMART playing. If your DPS breaks CC in any other game, it could cause a wipe. But not in ESO. ESO rewards facerolling idiots. You statement is invalid when you defend baddies.

Talons base skill should have initial damage removed. Any CC that is AoE should not output damage unless it grants CC immunity. And that DoT morph is still too powerful. If you morph that to DoT, then it should be a snare, not a root. Leave the other morph alone, so now you have 1 morph for tanking (roots and reduces damage), and the other for PvP/Solo/DPS.

The skill should reward the better CC on morph. Roots > Snare, so snare should be the base CC, and root only available in a morph that does not deal damage.

Armitas

jopeymonster wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

Simple solution: Have talons break on damage from any source.

You get one hit free, the rest you have to work / spam for, without your targets running out of stamina fast (and at least for stamina builds) unable to fight back.

That would immediately break it for PvE tanking. When we tank this is what we use to keep the mobs clustered and off the squishies. If it breaks on any damage source then it will be broken immediately on cast by the DPS in the group.

No, this would require SMART playing. If your DPS breaks CC in any other game, it could cause a wipe. But not in ESO. ESO rewards facerolling idiots. You statement is invalid when you defend baddies.

Talons base skill should have initial damage removed. Any CC that is AoE should not output damage unless it grants CC immunity. And that DoT morph is still too powerful. If you morph that to DoT, then it should be a snare, not a root. Leave the other morph alone, so now you have 1 morph for tanking (roots and reduces damage), and the other for PvP/Solo/DPS.

The skill should reward the better CC on morph. Roots > Snare, so snare should be the base CC, and root only available in a morph that does not deal damage.

Individual long term, hard CC is used for CCing important mobs, such as petrify, not a 4 second root that still allows them to cast ranged attacks. Talons is used to cluster trash mobs so that the DPS can burn them down and be protected by it because this game does not have aoe aggro. This "break on damage" change ruins all that. There is nothing smart about rooting trash mobs in a cluster and then not killing them. Trash mobs should be clustered and nuked in a pile immediately.

If there is no damage on it, and you roll out of it, then there is no damage or CC on it and you just wasted a 420 magicka cost cast, along with what ever it took to get in cast range, and got nothing out of it.

You say my point is invalid because I am "defending baddies", I rather think your point is diminished when you have to call people "baddies" to make it. I am defending what I think is the right action for the skill by making points about it, not insulting other players.

david.haypreub18_ESO

Panda244 wrote: »

Talons has a valid counter, three of them actually, Rapid Maneuvers, Purge, Roll Dodge... You can choose to get out of by using Magic or Stamina, so both build-archetypes, Magic and Stamina, have an option to get out of it.

Rapid maneuvers costs a ridiculous amount of resources and breaks when you attack. It might help you escape, but if you're counting on that to win you the resource race that is combat, you're going to lose.

Purge costs a ridiculous amount of magicka, so ditto... and you still eat the initial damage. Again, DK comes out ahead even if you slot this skill specifically to counter it.

Roll dodge is only an option for medium-armor users unless, again, you want to start falling behind in the resource race. And even then, it is touch-and-go because roll dodge is still quite expensive and you have to be playing defense while the DK is just standing there pounding on you.

What all this means is that as soon as the DK pushes the no-look, 'I pull ahead in the resource race' button, you're already losing the battle. That's just unfair.

I like the idea of making the morph choice between DoT and snare or no-DoT and root. But anyone who has played an MMO before for more than 5 minutes can see that an AoE CC that doesn't need to target and also has a DoT is just plain overpowered, period.

Panda244

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Talons has a valid counter, three of them actually, Rapid Maneuvers, Purge, Roll Dodge... You can choose to get out of by using Magic or Stamina, so both build-archetypes, Magic and Stamina, have an option to get out of it.

Rapid maneuvers costs a ridiculous amount of resources and breaks when you attack. It might help you escape, but if you're counting on that to win you the resource race that is combat, you're going to lose.

Purge costs a ridiculous amount of magicka, so ditto... and you still eat the initial damage. Again, DK comes out ahead even if you slot this skill specifically to counter it.

Roll dodge is only an option for medium-armor users unless, again, you want to start falling behind in the resource race. And even then, it is touch-and-go because roll dodge is still quite expensive and you have to be playing defense while the DK is just standing there pounding on you.

What all this means is that as soon as the DK pushes the no-look, 'I pull ahead in the resource race' button, you're already losing the battle. That's just unfair.

I like the idea of making the morph choice between DoT and snare or no-DoT and root. But anyone who has played an MMO before for more than 5 minutes can see that an AoE CC that doesn't need to target and also has a DoT is just plain overpowered, period.

The morph of Purge is rather cheap, Efficient Purge, only costs 300ish magicka on live, roll dodging is always an option in PvP, if you don't have Stamina you're dead anyway. Regardless of Talons or not, and while Rapid as you pointed out is good for retreating, it's also good for getting a few people to push through the enemies and start hitting their healers at the back, or turn around and sandwich them between you and the friendly zerg.

As for AoE CC, there are plenty AoE CCs in SWTOR that deal damage, and then there are single target ones that last a long while, similar to Petrify, Agony, and Rune Prison....

Armitas wrote: »

They should allow talons to be broken free of, and provide immunity at the end of the 4 second duration, nothing more. Having immunity after you roll out would be ridiculous. A DK could hit talons on a 6 or even 70 man raid and give them all CC immunity from a .5 second root that was rolled out of. You can't provide immunity to an entire zerg because they had .5 seconds worth of a root let alone the fact that you are then preventing any useful CC from occurring, like fear, due to the cheaply granted immunity you just gave everyone.

If rolling out of talons gave immunity then no one would be allowed to use talons in pvp. Just delete the skill for pvp at that point.

@Armitas And the only reason I don't agree with you Armitas is because Talons isn't a hard CC, if it isn't a hard CC then it shouldn't grant CC immunity, period. If they ever had soft CC immunity, then yes, Talons would apply. But not currently.

Armitas

Panda244 wrote: »

The morph of Purge is rather cheap, Efficient Purge, only costs 300ish magicka on live, roll dodging is always an option in PvP, if you don't have Stamina you're dead anyway.

Yep it cost the exact same amount as talons. When 1.6 comes out it will cost 20% less too, making it cheaper to cleanse talons than it costs to apply talons...That is not even covering the necessary cost to close the gap between the last roll.

(1.6) Reduced the cost of Purge by approximately 20%.

Panda244

Armitas wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

The morph of Purge is rather cheap, Efficient Purge, only costs 300ish magicka on live, roll dodging is always an option in PvP, if you don't have Stamina you're dead anyway.

Yep it cost the exact same amount as talons. When 1.6 comes out it will cost 20% less too.

Reduced the cost of Purge by approximately 20%.

There's your counter then, if it costs less than Talons and you're a magicka spec, the DK will run out of resources first....

david.haypreub18_ESO

Panda244 wrote: »

The morph of Purge is rather cheap, Efficient Purge, only costs 300ish magicka on live...

Which makes it about the same cost as Talons, but with the downside of you eating the initial damage. If he just sits there spamming Talons and you sit there spamming Purge, you'll eventually die, and he'll be fine. Not a good strategy.

... roll dodging is always an option in PvP, if you don't have Stamina you're dead anyway.

You can't just waive away the problem with that. DKs use Talons specifically to burn down your stamina. That's the whole problem.

Regardless of Talons or not, and while Rapid as you pointed out is good for retreating, it's also good for getting a few people to push through the enemies and start hitting their healers at the back, or turn around and sandwich them between you and the friendly zerg.

Those are some nice speculations on coordinated group tactics, but they all come to a crashing halt when a single DK gets to those people who have infiltrated the enemy lines, and he drops a Talons on them. Then the problem just gets worse.

Again, in no case does anyone who is trying to counter Talons ever come out ahead in the resource race. That is the definition of overpowered.

Armitas

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

The morph of Purge is rather cheap, Efficient Purge, only costs 300ish magicka on live...

Which makes it about the same cost as Talons, but with the downside of you eating the initial damage. If he just sits there spamming Talons and you sit there spamming Purge, you'll eventually die, and he'll be fine. Not a good strategy.

I can literally just stand there and eat talons all day long, even without purge, or any DK skills for that matter. Shoot the other morph is healing emps for 20k on removal of a negative effect on pts.

Panda244

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

The morph of Purge is rather cheap, Efficient Purge, only costs 300ish magicka on live...

Which makes it about the same cost as Talons, but with the downside of you eating the initial damage. If he just sits there spamming Talons and you sit there spamming Purge, you'll eventually die, and he'll be fine. Not a good strategy.

... roll dodging is always an option in PvP, if you don't have Stamina you're dead anyway.

You can't just waive away the problem with that. DKs use Talons specifically to burn down your stamina. That's the whole problem.

Regardless of Talons or not, and while Rapid as you pointed out is good for retreating, it's also good for getting a few people to push through the enemies and start hitting their healers at the back, or turn around and sandwich them between you and the friendly zerg.

Those are some nice speculations on coordinated group tactics, but they all come to a crashing halt when a single DK gets to those people who have infiltrated the enemy lines, and he drops a Talons on them. Then the problem just gets worse.

Again, in no case does anyone who is trying to counter Talons ever come out ahead in the resource race. That is the definition of overpowered.

It's not always a resource race... Roll dodge once, or twice, and retreat... Stop suspecting the person being Talons'd is going to stand there like a halfwit, purge it, and let the DK reapply Talons. @Armitas KNOWS that when sh*t hits the fan in PvP, regardless of what character I'm on, I'll retreat back to safety, or just retreat around a rock to save some time.. It is an option, a valid option... There have been maybe 2-3 times when Talons has gotten me killed in PvP, one time I can remember specifically, I roll dodged the wrong way, off a cliff.

Panda244

Armitas wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

The morph of Purge is rather cheap, Efficient Purge, only costs 300ish magicka on live...

Which makes it about the same cost as Talons, but with the downside of you eating the initial damage. If he just sits there spamming Talons and you sit there spamming Purge, you'll eventually die, and he'll be fine. Not a good strategy.

I can literally just stand there and eat talons all day long, even without purge, or any DK skills for that matter. Shoot the other morph is healing emps for 20k on removal of a negative effect on pts.

Aye, I've been thinking about using Cleanse on N'tel come 1.6, that'll be fun times... Won't it...? Especcially when you acknowledge how blatantly OP a heavy armor tank is in PvP now.... Ooooo... Imagine if I used Cleanse as my Malubeth set Proc'd... +30% to healing, so It'd basically be an Emperor Cleanse