Talons and CC Immunity?

dodgehopper_ESO

The title says it all. Will Talons respect cc immunity in 1.6 or ever? I am confused why other abilities follow cc immunity but talons can be spammed indefinitely. I am aware they are changing Blazing Spear, which is all well and good, but blazing spear is a single target cc with aoe damage on ground target. Talons is a pbaoe hold with fire damage. Which is worse? I've been wondering about this ability for quite a long time, and honestly its too good to be true. Can anyone explain to me why?

Robocles

Well... the biggest difference is that talons is a root, and spear is a stun. Talons may keep you in place, but at least you can fight back.

You could go to the PTS and see for yourself... or see if it's in the patch notes.

Cody

Talons does not have an immunity timer. If it does it does not work.

Varicite

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

The title says it all. Will Talons respect cc immunity in 1.6 or ever? I am confused why other abilities follow cc immunity but talons can be spammed indefinitely. I am aware they are changing Blazing Spear, which is all well and good, but blazing spear is a single target cc with aoe damage on ground target. Talons is a pbaoe hold with fire damage. Which is worse? I've been wondering about this ability for quite a long time, and honestly its too good to be true. Can anyone explain to me why?

In ESO, "CC" (Crowd Control) refers to abilities that cause a complete loss of control of an enemy.

These are effects like stuns, incapacitates, pulls, knockdowns, etc.

Immobilizing and snaring effects (DK Talons is an Immobilize effect) do NOT cause a complete loss of control. You are still able to defend yourself, go on the offense w/ ranged abilities, dodge roll out of them, heal yourself, etc.

As such, immobilizes and snares do not grant CC immunity because they are not considered true CC.

Hope that helps. : )

Rev Rielle

Considering how intimately important movement is to combat success, especially in PvP, it would be nice if development improved the balance of snares/roots at some point in time.

Grasshopper

Also Keep in mind skills like Rapid Maneuvers can prevent you from getting Snared or immobilized also.
Some people in group scenarios keep that on there back bar just for that.

dodgehopper_ESO

If Talons are not considered a CC, then why is Eclipse? I realize you can clear Talons with a cleanse but I do find it a bit odd that you can be rooted ad infinitum but I can't also eclipse you back while you bat flap repeatedly. Eclipse is a single target debuff. Talons are a pbaoe hold + damage (and its also cheap). It just seems like an imbalanced ability to me. I can understand the disease effect or poison effect needing to be repurged to remove, but I don't understand why Eclipse/Agony/Mines/Encase are so easy to cleanse and ignore while Talons somehow gets a free pass. I've got no problem with cleanse/breakfree the issue is the haphazard manner in which cc immunity seems to be applied here. If you are going to have cc immunity, it should be applied to everything. Eclipse is almost worthless against an enemy with the knowledge because of cc immunity. You can't say the same for Talons.

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO

This one wouldn't mind those Talons so much if not for the fact they pretty much always come along with bats and/or flame lash.
For the first, you need to get out as there is no other useful way of fighting back, which in fact makes the combo overpowered.
The second synergies with extra damage and self-heal on off-balance targets (and somehow rooted seem to count a s off-balance as well, though it shouldn't). Again the combo is very powerful and self sustaining.

Simple solution: Have talons break on damage from any source.

You get one hit free, the rest you have to work / spam for, without your targets running out of stamina fast (and at least for stamina builds) unable to fight back.

Sharee

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

If Talons are not considered a CC, then why is Eclipse?

I believe the rule of thumb is, if you can use CC break to remove something, then that something respects CC immunity.

Panda244

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

This one wouldn't mind those Talons so much if not for the fact they pretty much always come along with bats and/or flame lash.
For the first, you need to get out as there is no other useful way of fighting back, which in fact makes the combo overpowered.
The second synergies with extra damage and self-heal on off-balance targets (and somehow rooted seem to count a s off-balance as well, though it shouldn't). Again the combo is very powerful and self sustaining.

Simple solution: Have talons break on damage from any source.

You get one hit free, the rest you have to work / spam for, without your targets running out of stamina fast (and at least for stamina builds) unable to fight back.

Not so simple solution as Talons has a DoT.

Talons is not OP, the batswarm combo won't work at all in 1.6 due to the ultimate gen nerf, a DK spamming talons is no different than a sorcerer spamming encase, only reason you don't see sorcs doing that is because encase does joke-able damage and they have no melee abilities. If you give talons a CC timer then Cripple, Encase, and every other root needs one, and if you remove talons from the game, DKs won't even be scary as you can run from literally every ability they have but stonefist.

Talon spam doesn't bother me, I however have run with a buddy of mine. Doctorswampy, and when we both PvP together, we make sure to alternate talon spam, because if I use talons on 6 people, and he smacks the synergy, then he uses talons on 6 people, and I smack the synergy, its 2k damage in under 6 seconds because the synergy for me does about 800 dmg, talons does about 350-400.

That's the only time talonspam ever scares me, and it's unlikely because NO ONE in PvP uses synergies. Removing the synergy would be a substantial nerf to intelligent DKs that run together, but won't be enough... Reducing the damage on talons is a start... But nerfing their ability to root people indefinitely is essentially breaking the DK class. As every ability, EVERY SINGLE ABILITY, but Stonefist, has an 8m or less range.

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO

Hate to break you the news, but every other DK uses that synergy (and not just DKs), this one is so sorry to break your "I win" button, not.

Like so many others (well all others but DKs frankly) you might want to have a look at those skill lines outside of your class. You know there are some abilities there who do have a larger range than 8 m.

Panda244

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

Gate to break you the news, but every other DK uses that synergy (and not just DKs), this one is so sorry to break your "I win" button, not.

Like so many others (well all others but DKs frankly) you might want to have a look at those skill lines outside of your class. You know there are some abilities there who do have a larger range than 8 m.

My point isn't other skill lines, every class has at least 3 abilities that are ranged, DKs have one. Talons is the crutch for that reason, we have to spam it to keep targets inside our melee range, give DKs a few more options for ranged abilities and you'll see a lot less talon spam. Simple as that.

Sorcerers get, Daedric Curse, Mage's Fury, Crystal Shards. All 28 meters.
Templars get, Dark Flare, Backlash, Eclipse, Vampire's Bane. 25 meters or more.
Nightblades get, Swallow Soul, Cripple, Shades, Mark. 25 meters or more.

Dragonknights get Obsidian Shard, 15 meter range, pitiful damage, absurd cost.


Telling me to use weapons to compensate is like telling a Sorcerer to stop bolt escaping away, It's his class skill, used for escaping or disorienting the enemy, give me three more DECENT ranged abilities as a Dragonknight and I'll personally deconstruct my current gear set up for PvP and mail you the materials.

And talons isn't an "I Win" button, it does 350 damage on average, if spamming that gets you killed then you have low health, can't heal or roll dodge, and you're well... Dumb. I'm not trying to be rude, but if you're coming across a cheese DK just back up, when he shield charges you, use fear, encase, or if you're a templar, use javelin as he's shield charging because he can't block it and it'll stop him mid-charge.

I honestly don't know why people hate on Dragonknights so much, as of right now, on live, 1.5. A former emperor sorcerer could stack Scales of the Dragon, Dominion Potentate's, his passives, get batswarm, have it cost 90 ultimate, streak through a zerg and use impulse once or twice, and have it charged, then he can spam encase and keep you perma-rooted while he batspams you to death.

A templar can spam blazing spears for perma-stun, or puncturing strikes, and templars are damned deadly, trust me, @blabafat‌ is not to be trifled with.

Nightblades are nightblades, they can heal, DPS, or tank, all very well. So back off Dragonknights and start suggesting things that need balance, not hate-nerfs.

dodgehopper_ESO

You haven't read what I've written panda244, if you think I'm talking about nerfs. All I'm suggesting is that if cc immunity applies to other cc's, they should apply to talons as well, or they should get rid of cc immunity. What I dislike is the lack of parity. When I try to target an enemy with Eclipse, its damn annoying as I don't know its going to fail until I keep jamming the key and see a half-completed attack. Then and only then do I know that he's already been cc'd by someone else and the counter won't fire, thereby making his reflective scales unbeatable. (By the way I think nb's have it worse in this regard, as their cc requires a long and painful windup, but I digress). Templars can fling a blazing spear in 1v1, I'll grant that (though I seem pretty adept at getting out of the way of them when people are flinging them at me). They can also puncturing strike (both of which are addressed in 1.6). My point is that cc immunity isn't working properly. If they're going to have an immunity feature it should work across the board, and not randomly across whatever abilities the devs didn't forget to make part of the system, either that, or there should be no cc immunity whatsoever.

I'd like to add something else. Extended Chains, and Dragon Leap both have ranged attacks. There is also nothing to stop a DK from using a shield charge or stampede, destruction staff, restoration staff, or bow (and they often do use one of these).

With regard to what the other classes get:
Templars: Dark Flare is really slow and easy to interrupt, but it does have a good debuff, I'll grant you that. Vampires bane isn't so bad, except that it has a pretty slow animation as well (You're better off with something else). Backlash is really slow, and actually slows your dps down. If you are talking about 1.6 then sure its fine there. Eclipse is meant as a counter to Reflective scales and other ranged attacks, except it can be broken free and obeys cc immunity, which means you really can't effectively target anyone with it most of the time in pvp. The truth of the matter is, the best dps abilities a Templar has are up close and personal.

Nightblades: Swallow Soul is good, although as a DK apologist you should realize you can block this or reflect it, essentially nullifying this power versus you. Mark is a good skill, but until 1.6 breaks it puts the nightblade in as much risk as you (I also clear it most times or roll out of the way). Shades is a pretty weak debuff, please don't make that comparison. The singular teleporting shade is pretty interesting though. Cripple, as I've previously stated is an agonizingly slow windup, and I personally find it to be garbage for the most part.

Sorcerer does get a lot of ranged abilities, and I won't even argue that point with you. It is worth noting that you can reflect all of those abilities. Thankfully its dropping to a meager 4.So very sad for the DK.

I've actually played my DK a good bit (V14) so I'm not suggesting you destroy the class, but please don't suggest that being able to reflect all ranged attacks, drop a standard, talon spam, cinder storm, and inhale are a weak combination of abilities. My only complaint here is with the way cc immunity is working, and you have taken it to mean that I want to ruin the DK class. I'm suggesting that the developers probably intended for all cc effects to drop into immunity, because it just doesn't make much sense. Imagine for a moment if I could slam an pbaoe Eclipse that didn't respect cc immunity. That's in a nutshell the problem I have with Talons.

dodgehopper_ESO

Does no one else on the forums find the haphazard cc immunity system in the game a balance problem?
I posted this topic in large part because so many people in game were complaining about the issue, and I
have to admit it was irritating me as well. I personally would like to see cc immunity removed, or to be placed
across the board to all forms of cc. Its simply not fair otherwise. I also find it really odd that Eclipse is
treated as a cc, but its a debuff.

Panda244

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Does no one else on the forums find the haphazard cc immunity system in the game a balance problem?
I posted this topic in large part because so many people in game were complaining about the issue, and I
have to admit it was irritating me as well. I personally would like to see cc immunity removed, or to be placed
across the board to all forms of cc. Its simply not fair otherwise. I also find it really odd that Eclipse is
treated as a cc, but its a debuff.

@dodgehopper_ESO I understand the need to go back and re-balance some skills, but Talons isn't one of those skills. Neither is Eclipse, unless an ability stuns you, and completely removes the ability to control your character, then it shouldn't grant CC immunity or be effected by CC immunity.

Roots, should not be effected by CC immunity, but giving Talons a global cool-down of 0.5 seconds will help in the regard to Talons spam. (I don't support this, but seeing as people won't stop complaining about it...) Crippling Grasp, is a Root, and should not be effected by CC immunity, Encase, is a Root, and you get my point.

Invasion, Dragon Leap, Stonefist, Crystal Shards, Fear, Destructive Touch, Magnum Shot, these are all stuns and therefor should grant CC immunity and be effected by CC immunity. If someone hits you with Destructive Touch and you get stunned, whether you break free or wait it out, you should be granted at minimum, 10 seconds of CC immunity. This would fix most stun-lock issues in the game and give PvP a better feel, as you won't have to worry about getting stunned again and again, or worry about spamming the stuns again and again.

As for your previous post about Dragonknights' using World and Weapon trees for range effectiveness, that's entirely besides the point. Dragonknight's are without any ranged abilities of their own and that's a problem, they shouldn't have to look to other skill lines to be effective at range, same goes with Nightblades and heals. But that's a topic for another thread.

Varicite

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Does no one else on the forums find the haphazard cc immunity system in the game a balance problem?
I posted this topic in large part because so many people in game were complaining about the issue, and I
have to admit it was irritating me as well. I personally would like to see cc immunity removed, or to be placed
across the board to all forms of cc. Its simply not fair otherwise. I also find it really odd that Eclipse is
treated as a cc, but its a debuff.

Not really, no. It's not haphazard, it's a fairly similar system used by many MMOs on the market.

If you can control your character in some way, then you aren't CC'd. CC break / CC immunity doesn't work because you can do something about it yourself. I also already mentioned that there are abilities that directly counter roots / snares.

If you can't control your character at all, then you are CC'd and you can break out of it or just stay in it and be granted immunity afterward.

It's really pretty simple, and there is nothing at all "unfair" about it.

Eclipse, however, is an outlier and it doesn't make sense that you can CC break out of the reflect mechanically, but gameplay-wise it most likely seemed "unfair" that you could put a reflection debuff on somebody and there would be literally nothing that they could do about it for the entire duration unless they have Purge slotted.

dodgehopper_ESO

Panda244 wrote: »

@dodgehopper_ESO I understand the need to go back and re-balance some skills, but Talons isn't one of those skills. Neither is Eclipse, unless an ability stuns you, and completely removes the ability to control your character, then it shouldn't grant CC immunity or be effected by CC immunity.

Roots, should not be effected by CC immunity, but giving Talons a global cool-down of 0.5 seconds will help in the regard to Talons spam. (I don't support this, but seeing as people won't stop complaining about it...) Crippling Grasp, is a Root, and should not be effected by CC immunity, Encase, is a Root, and you get my point.

Specifically regarding Eclipse, it sounds like you agree with me. Eclipse is treated as a CC with respect to CC Immunity and it is not. Eclipse is a debuff that causes single target ranged magic to reflect back on the caster. This is a debuff not a cc. A player can purge it, cleanse it, or they can break free from it. They could also just go to melee or weapon strikes or aoe's. The problem is this ability respects cc immunity, in other words if you 'break free' from my Eclipse or any other cc, I now have to wait to hit you with Eclipse again. The inequity as I see it is that Talons does not respect cc immunity and it is an aoe root with a respectable damage component. If I understand you correctly you actually agree with me about Eclipse. Since this ability does not stun you or completely remove the ability to control your character. You simply feel it shouldn't allow cc immunity. This is my point exactly, there is no consistency with which cc immunity is being applied.

Varicite

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

This is my point exactly, there is no consistency with which cc immunity is being applied.

There is plenty of consistency in literally every single other ability in this entire game outside of Eclipse.

You're exaggerating.

Panda244

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

@dodgehopper_ESO I understand the need to go back and re-balance some skills, but Talons isn't one of those skills. Neither is Eclipse, unless an ability stuns you, and completely removes the ability to control your character, then it shouldn't grant CC immunity or be effected by CC immunity.

Roots, should not be effected by CC immunity, but giving Talons a global cool-down of 0.5 seconds will help in the regard to Talons spam. (I don't support this, but seeing as people won't stop complaining about it...) Crippling Grasp, is a Root, and should not be effected by CC immunity, Encase, is a Root, and you get my point.

Specifically regarding Eclipse, it sounds like you agree with me. Eclipse is treated as a CC with respect to CC Immunity and it is not. Eclipse is a debuff that causes single target ranged magic to reflect back on the caster. This is a debuff not a cc. A player can purge it, cleanse it, or they can break free from it. They could also just go to melee or weapon strikes or aoe's. The problem is this ability respects cc immunity, in other words if you 'break free' from my Eclipse or any other cc, I now have to wait to hit you with Eclipse again. The inequity as I see it is that Talons does not respect cc immunity and it is an aoe root with a respectable damage component. If I understand you correctly you actually agree with me about Eclipse. Since this ability does not stun you or completely remove the ability to control your character. You simply feel it shouldn't allow cc immunity. This is my point exactly, there is no consistency with which cc immunity is being applied.

Aye I agree with you about Eclipse, it's the one ability that counters Reflect. (Nerfhammered into Oblivion in 1.6 ) So if you can spam Reflect, you should be able to spam the counter-ability to it, no? I don't think they need to change the system, just the consistency, make it so that abilities, like Eclipse, don't grant CC immunity, because they aren't CC's and abilities that do, such as Invasion, grant CC immunity and are effected by it. They seriously need to increase the up time of CC immunity as well, three seconds is a joke and turns this game into a CC-spam-fest.

Varicite

Panda244 wrote: »

I don't think they need to change the system, just the consistency, make it so that abilities, like Eclipse, don't grant CC immunity, because they aren't CC's

What are these other abilities "like Eclipse" that you guys keep talking about?

There are no other non-CC abilities that grant CC immunity, to my knowledge.

Instead of continuing to talk about non-existent abilities that should conform to this imaginary mass inconsistency, why not just make a thread specifically about Eclipse?

Isn't that what this really is? You want them to fix Eclipse, but for some reason you are channeling this desire into a "Nerf DKs" thread. I don't even understand the point of that.

Panda244

Varicite wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

I don't think they need to change the system, just the consistency, make it so that abilities, like Eclipse, don't grant CC immunity, because they aren't CC's

What are these other abilities "like Eclipse" that you guys keep talking about?

There are no other non-CC abilities that grant CC immunity, to my knowledge.

Instead of continuing to talk about non-existent abilities that should conform to this imaginary mass inconsistency, why not just make a thread specifically about Eclipse?

Isn't that what this really is? You want them to fix Eclipse, but for some reason you are channeling this desire into a "Nerf DKs" thread. I don't even understand the point of that.

Eclipse is the biggest I can name off the top of my head because the Mage Guards use it inside Cyrodiil, tbh I think it may be the only ability that is like this... The only other one I can think off is destructive touch, but that's because it's bugged atm. If you have harness magicka up, it won't knock you back, and sometimes it'll grant you CC immunity despite not being stunned.

As for nerfing DKs, you've missed my last post if you think I'm still talking about that

technohic

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Considering how intimately important movement is to combat success, especially in PvP, it would be nice if development improved the balance of snares/roots at some point in time.

They should break on damage after a second or so. Thats how some other MMOs handle them.

dodgehopper_ESO

I posted this thread because of my perceived inequity with regard to the way cc immunity functions. In most games that I have played, a root is considered a form of crowd control, particularly a strong one when accompanied by a damage component. What @Panda244 made clear is that in this game, roots are not considered part of that cc immunity dynamic at least. I can accept that, but there really isn't any form of hostility here, or even a 'nerf Dk' thread. Panda has done a good job of adding clarity here, and gave me a different way of looking at this issue. I think we're talking about a definitional difference, which has created some confusion. There are other roots in the game like Talons, such as Encase, which I would consider relatively analogous.

Varicite

Panda244 wrote: »

As for nerfing DKs, you've missed my last post if you think I'm still talking about that

Oh, I did read it, which is the only reason that I figured out this thread was more about fixing Eclipse than nerfing Talons / roots, lol.

I do agree that Eclipse could use a more elegant solution, even though I can kind of see why it does work that way (not wanting to pigeonhole every player into slotting Purge).

I just think the thread would be more productive if it was about Eclipse and trying to garner a positive result. There seems to be a lot of negativity toward Talons itself in the OP, but the issues you're talking about are completely separate.

Panda244

technohic wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Considering how intimately important movement is to combat success, especially in PvP, it would be nice if development improved the balance of snares/roots at some point in time.

They should break on damage after a second or so. Thats how some other MMOs handle them.

Aye, this -could- work, except Talons and Crippling Grasp both have DoTs attached to them, so it would essentially break itself after 1 second. Also, in a PvP scenario, this wouldn't fix the problem as you're almost always taking damage.

What they could do, is make it so that the cost of roll dodging out of a root is GREATLY reduced. By like 50%, that would fix it a little bit, and they can just tweak the numbers if it gets out of hand, I don't want to go higher than 50% because Medium armor users already get a reduction to dodge roll which effectively lets them roll endlessly.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler sound like a plan Brian my man?!?
Please respond, Dev feedback = good feedback!!

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Does no one else on the forums find the haphazard cc immunity system in the game a balance problem?
I posted this topic in large part because so many people in game were complaining about the issue, and I
have to admit it was irritating me as well. I personally would like to see cc immunity removed, or to be placed
across the board to all forms of cc. Its simply not fair otherwise. I also find it really odd that Eclipse is
treated as a cc, but its a debuff.

its not that haphazard, the only problem is people want to call everything cc. as someone already stated:
cc that completely shuts you down are hard CC and you can break free and are able to have cc immunity applied.

roots and snares are not hard CC they do not completely shut you down and there is no cc immunity.

what exactly is the confusion?

the only move that is totally out of place is eclipse, its single target dosent shut you down and only effects negative single target spells; It does not really fit anywhere and they chose to make it hard cc because realistically it would be op if you couldnt cc break it. it would be nice if immovable did not prevent the cast and they had to cc break seing that it is particularly unique and situational.

THE biggest issue is layers of cc at the same time completely shutting down your bar and being unbreakable, hope they fix that.

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

THE biggest issue is layers of cc at the same time completely shutting down your bar and being unbreakable, hope they fix that.

Indeed, and that's why talons (instant cast & area effect) are a CC (crowd control) and needs some immunity after one break free. Otherwise it becomes a hard CC, that is making you unable to do anything about it.

That is the problem.
Any skill should have a valid counter. Anything else is unbalanced.
No skill should allow you to attack with impunity, i.e. without fear of retaliation.

Vizier

Panda244 wrote: »

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

Gate to break you the news, but every other DK uses that synergy (and not just DKs), this one is so sorry to break your "I win" button, not.

Like so many others (well all others but DKs frankly) you might want to have a look at those skill lines outside of your class. You know there are some abilities there who do have a larger range than 8 m.

My point isn't other skill lines, every class has at least 3 abilities that are ranged, DKs have one. Talons is the crutch for that reason, we have to spam it to keep targets inside our melee range, give DKs a few more options for ranged abilities and you'll see a lot less talon spam. Simple as that.

Sorcerers get, Daedric Curse, Mage's Fury, Crystal Shards. All 28 meters.
Templars get, Dark Flare, Backlash, Eclipse, Vampire's Bane. 25 meters or more.
Nightblades get, Swallow Soul, Cripple, Shades, Mark. 25 meters or more.

Dragonknights get Obsidian Shard, 15 meter range, pitiful damage, absurd cost.


Telling me to use weapons to compensate is like telling a Sorcerer to stop bolt escaping away, It's his class skill, used for escaping or disorienting the enemy, give me three more DECENT ranged abilities as a Dragonknight and I'll personally deconstruct my current gear set up for PvP and mail you the materials.

And talons isn't an "I Win" button, it does 350 damage on average, if spamming that gets you killed then you have low health, can't heal or roll dodge, and you're well... Dumb. I'm not trying to be rude, but if you're coming across a cheese DK just back up, when he shield charges you, use fear, encase, or if you're a templar, use javelin as he's shield charging because he can't block it and it'll stop him mid-charge.

I honestly don't know why people hate on Dragonknights so much, as of right now, on live, 1.5. A former emperor sorcerer could stack Scales of the Dragon, Dominion Potentate's, his passives, get batswarm, have it cost 90 ultimate, streak through a zerg and use impulse once or twice, and have it charged, then he can spam encase and keep you perma-rooted while he batspams you to death.

A templar can spam blazing spears for perma-stun, or puncturing strikes, and templars are damned deadly, trust me, @blabafat‌ is not to be trifled with.

Nightblades are nightblades, they can heal, DPS, or tank, all very well. So back off Dragonknights and start suggesting things that need balance, not hate-nerfs.

LOL- Sorry but there's no button for it anymore.

NOPE- nothing wrong with DK talons AT ALL- Nothing to see here. Move along. These aren't the droids your looking for.

edit: Umm...that was Sarcasm.

technohic

Panda244 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Considering how intimately important movement is to combat success, especially in PvP, it would be nice if development improved the balance of snares/roots at some point in time.

They should break on damage after a second or so. Thats how some other MMOs handle them.

Aye, this -could- work, except Talons and Crippling Grasp both have DoTs attached to them, so it would essentially break itself after 1 second. Also, in a PvP scenario, this wouldn't fix the problem as you're almost always taking damage.

What they could do, is make it so that the cost of roll dodging out of a root is GREATLY reduced. By like 50%, that would fix it a little bit, and they can just tweak the numbers if it gets out of hand, I don't want to go higher than 50% because Medium armor users already get a reduction to dodge roll which effectively lets them roll endlessly.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler sound like a plan Brian my man?!?
Please respond, Dev feedback = good feedback!!

This sounds like a good idea to me. Of course so would fixing the times where you are both stunned by something else along with hit with dragon claws to where suddenly you can't break either.

EnOeZ

Talon Spam for full Melee Characters (using melee weapons therefore stamina, and probably heavy armor) is just a spammable hard counter for any non full melee DK. The same for any other rooting ability like bow "bombard". Spammable hard counters to certain play styles (melee stamina) are not to my view a good combat design and agree that talons would have been much better with its initial (release) range but with expected CC immunity when you roll out of it.

However since this playstyle (frontline stamina melee warrior, especially in heavy no-stamina-regen armor(TM)) is still blatantly ignored, we are not enough to cry loud to reach ZOS attention. Melee warrior have been mass-extincted by ZOS combat, resource, armor and root-non-immunity design in Cyrodil.

A few expectation though in medium armor (shuffle)* and momentum morph (2H) with 1.6.3

* but not heavy who should be the most intended for close combat and anti CC measures, since if you choose heavy it's that you expect to to be able endure lots of damage to support your playstyle.

Francescolg

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

In most games that I have played, a root is considered a form of crowd control, particularly a strong one when accompanied by a damage component.

This maybe one of the reasons this game is not as successfull as others.

To further confuse you, in this game we have: HARD CC, SOFT CC and (!) ROOT + SLOW.
I can live with SLOW beeing considered something special but not with root.
ROOT is the decisive CC in PvP battle and should therefore be considered as SOFT or HARD CC, whatever.
That this is not the case, just shows the very young age and unexperience of the Dev Team, who clearly lack of deeper understanding of PvP battles. It seems to me they only play duels or on "events"..

Too many PvP situations are simply controlled by Talon-spamming DKs. If you run after a scroll group DKs will decide over the outcome of the battle. Place DKs at the right places in a keep for example and the healers in a safe spot (healing through walls) and you can dominate much larger teams.

But I'm getting tired of explaining and re-explaining the m..s with ROOT beeing considered ULTRASOFT CC.