Chained Lightning (anti-zerg ability)

tinythinker

I know a new ability to make your own character or an enemy player a walking bomb (Magicka Detonation) is already included in 1.6 as a way to discourage zerging, yet I wanted to share this anyway to get feedback as something else that might be fun/helpful. I use 1.6 scaled numbers.

TL;DR Version

Ability that infects players near target who then spread it others near them who spread it and so on, with damage based on number of players infected.

Tooltip

Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Range: 28 meters

Generates a massive electrical charge in a single target which leaps to other enemy players within 6 meters after .5 seconds for 3000 damage while also causing 1500 damage to original target per other player hit. Those players become charged and will also spark and charge nearby unaffected allies within .5 seconds. All affected players including the original target can be re-charged if they remain within range of those affected by the chain reaction.

Examples

Example One:

Player A is hit with Chained Lightning. Players B, C, and D are within 6 meters of player A. They don't move. After .5 seconds, a sparking animation plays while the ability deals 3000 damage to Players B, C, and D and 4500 damage to Player A. Players, B, C, and D are now charged. No one moves. Because they were charged at the same time, when B, C and D "spark" only A is unaffected, so she is "re-charged" and hit with 9000 damage while and B, C, and D take 1500 damage each. No one moves. After .5 seconds, Player A sparks again charging Players B, C, and D, taking 4500 damage while dealing 3000 damage to the others. If they all stay within 6 meters of each other this goes on forever.

Example Two:

Player A is hit with Chained Lightining, and there are 12 other players within 6 meters because they are stacked. None of them move. After .5 seconds, Player A takes 18000 damage and the other 12 take 3000 damage each. If none still move, the cycle repeats as per above.

Discussion

These are simplistic examples to illustrate a concept. If players are moving around or if multiple Chained Lightning is cast then the results can be much more unpredictable. There are probably ways to improve this which could be used on the base ability or as morphs, but this is just off the top of my head. Build up time to sparking, damage, etc were numbers thrown together to demonstrate the concept not carefully thought out for balance purposes. It would probably be best with a high (Magicka) cost. I personally see it more as a medium cost Ultimate ability if there were skill line that could use one.

Possible morphs...

Chain Reaction: Those hit by a sparking player take 3500 damage and have their spell resistance to elemental damage reduced by 25% for 8 seconds.

Bottled Lightning: Sparking players take 2000 damage per target affected and radius of affect is increased to 8 meters.

tinythinker

A brief thought for different anti-zerg ability: An AoE that does more damage the more spells that are cast inside its radius. If you stack and spam you get hammered.

Fairly weak damage at 1-2 casts per second within the area of effect, moderate at 3-4, heavy at 5+. Numbers can be adjusted for effectiveness and depending on size of radius (what, 6-8 meters?).

Maybe, 1000 damage to all players in AoE per spell cast within the AoE per second? So 1-2 casts =1000-2000 damage, 3-4=3000-4000 per second, 5=5000 per second. If you have a stacked group spamming spells at a rate of 4-5 casts per second that would kill them pretty quick.

Sure, if they are spamming heals it might not be as effective, so a morph could add a Major Defile debuff.

AaronMB

That's an interesting idea: some kind of an AOE that feeds off, or is scaled from, other skills used by enemies. It could have use in PVE, too, perhaps.

CMG138

While I like some sort of anti zerging ability, no. Seriously, is anyone going to be able to take over anything? Sure, you could use a small group, but the devs already did away with that when they raised the lvl of the NPCs and buffed them. Way too OP'd. If you want to get rid of zerging, I'd say buff people defending a keep scaled to the number of people attacking. At that point, their superior numbers would be wasted.

Nivzruo_ESO

If you want to nerf zergs, then Aoe damage as a whole should be nerfed into the ground. AoE should all be around path of darkness' level.

tinythinker

CMG138 wrote: »

While I like some sort of anti zerging ability, no. Seriously, is anyone going to be able to take over anything? Sure, you could use a small group, but the devs already did away with that when they raised the lvl of the NPCs and buffed them. Way too OP'd. If you want to get rid of zerging, I'd say buff people defending a keep scaled to the number of people attacking. At that point, their superior numbers would be wasted.

The numbers are up for grabs. If you mean Chained Lightning, you could just reduce the damage or area of effect. Same with the second, unnamed ability. I agree CL would be strong but if it had a high cost (especially if it was an ult) and if people kept moving/spaced out it wouldn't be so bad. At a 6 meter radius you can move away from whoever gets targeted. The time until the target sparks could also be increased to make that easier. With heavy armor/shield stacking some players wouldn't even care about getting shocked.

If you buffed defenders to be as strong as any number of defenders I'm not sure how that ensures factions could still take strongholds.

In any case the ideas offered are intended to spark further thought and discussion. I fully expect that they would need to be modified for balance, I just wanted to suggest base concepts (like having an effect spread to nearby targets or having an AoE ability that scales off enemy casting).

RinaldoGandolphi

As I said in another post, more powerful siege is the answer to zergs as siege can be used to bust zergs, but zergs can't stack siege together.

You want to counter zergs, then-

Siege does 30-40% more damage to players.

Siege effects and DOTs are not purgable.

Siege ignores 100% of armor and spell/elemental resist.

Siege weapons themselves have hit points reduced 50%

Then the days of waltzing through siege are over. Big zerg blob comes, players can set up tactical siege and fire right into their ranks and inflict heavy damage.

I see better siege as a better solution because you can't stack siege close together, folks will find ways to use another aoe for zerging, they can't do that with siege.

Just my 2 cents

tinythinker

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

If you want to nerf zergs, then Aoe damage as a whole should be nerfed into the ground. AoE should all be around path of darkness' level.

That has been debated quite a bit and lead to the AoE cap that is being lifted in 1.6. One argument against this that has frequently been repeated over and over is that it affects PvE builds and strategies just to try to limit spamming in PvP.

CMG138

woodsro wrote: »

As I said in another post, more powerful siege is the answer to zergs as siege can be used to bust zergs, but zergs can't stack siege together.

You want to counter zergs, then-

Siege does 30-40% more damage to players.

Siege effects and DOTs are not purgable.

Siege ignores 100% of armor and spell/elemental resist.

Siege weapons themselves have hit points reduced 50%

Then the days of waltzing through siege are over. Big zerg blob comes, players can set up tactical siege and fire right into their ranks and inflict heavy damage.

I see better siege as a better solution because you can't stack siege close together, folks will find ways to use another aoe for zerging, they can't do that with siege.

Just my 2 cents

That's a very good point woodsro, siege equipment should be way more than just a nuisance, that *** ain't no joke. What I would like to see would be siege towers, although I'm not sure how feasible that would be. I think we just need more options to get over walls.

tinythinker

woodsro wrote: »

As I said in another post, more powerful siege is the answer to zergs as siege can be used to bust zergs, but zergs can't stack siege together.

You want to counter zergs, then-

Siege does 30-40% more damage to players.

Siege effects and DOTs are not purgable.

Siege ignores 100% of armor and spell/elemental resist.

Siege weapons themselves have hit points reduced 50%

Then the days of waltzing through siege are over. Big zerg blob comes, players can set up tactical siege and fire right into their ranks and inflict heavy damage.

I see better siege as a better solution because you can't stack siege close together, folks will find ways to use another aoe for zerging, they can't do that with siege.

Just my 2 cents

Agree that this is needed, have for a while.

I was just thinking in terms of fun-sounding abilities as well. I figured an AoE with a really high cost that peters out if you just scatter briefly (Chained Lightning) or that is mostly harmless unless you stack tight and spam cast (other suggested ability not named) might be less likely to be abused, especially once the numbers are tweaked.

thelordoffelines

Why don't they just make a new siege weapon that we can place on the ground and we can use as a powerful pbaoe. I could've sworn we used to have one....

tinythinker

thelordoffelines wrote: »

Why don't they just make a new siege weapon that we can place on the ground and we can use as a powerful pbaoe. I could've sworn we used to have one....

Been playing since late beta, but it doesn't ring a bell...

Holycannoli

I'm reminded of my Rift Dominator. Curse a single target or group of enemies and every time they cast a spell or use an ability it does PBAOE damage. The damage could quickly add up vs zergs.

I'd love to see Daedric Curse do it. It would be a true curse, not just another DoT.

Sanct16

I want to fight people, not just siege them. Increasing siege weapons would affect anyone, not just stacked groups.

frozywozy

thelordoffelines wrote: »

Why don't they just make a new siege weapon that we can place on the ground and we can use as a powerful pbaoe. I could've sworn we used to have one....

Flamethrower ?

tonemd

woodsro wrote: »

As I said in another post, more powerful siege is the answer to zergs as siege can be used to bust zergs, but zergs can't stack siege together.

You want to counter zergs, then-

Siege does 30-40% more damage to players.

Siege effects and DOTs are not purgable.

Siege ignores 100% of armor and spell/elemental resist.

Siege weapons themselves have hit points reduced 50%

Then the days of waltzing through siege are over. Big zerg blob comes, players can set up tactical siege and fire right into their ranks and inflict heavy damage.

I see better siege as a better solution because you can't stack siege close together, folks will find ways to use another aoe for zerging, they can't do that with siege.

Just my 2 cents

Siege does 30-40% more damage to players. YES

Siege effects and DOTs are not purgable. No

Siege ignores 100% of armor and spell/elemental resist. No

Siege weapons themselves have hit points reduced 50% Yes

Those middle option are a bit too much. You should be allowed to burn your resources purging away DOT effects, making you briefly easier to kill. And ignoring armor and spell resist WHILE augmenting the damage is just OP. maybe lower the percentage to 50%.

Remember, this stuff will hit your 20 man siege as well, not just the roving zergball. Increasing the damage to players AND lowering the siege hit point gives a significant advantage to defenders.

WRX

woodsro wrote: »

As I said in another post, more powerful siege is the answer to zergs as siege can be used to bust zergs, but zergs can't stack siege together.

You want to counter zergs, then-

Siege does 30-40% more damage to players.

Siege effects and DOTs are not purgable.

Siege ignores 100% of armor and spell/elemental resist.

Siege weapons themselves have hit points reduced 50%

Then the days of waltzing through siege are over. Big zerg blob comes, players can set up tactical siege and fire right into their ranks and inflict heavy damage.

I see better siege as a better solution because you can't stack siege close together, folks will find ways to use another aoe for zerging, they can't do that with siege.

Just my 2 cents

Yeah because we need a bunch of bads shooting god cannons everywhere.

No thanks.

tinythinker

Isn't siege set to ignore armor and have a damage boost in 1.6? Already going to be more powerful.

tinythinker

Isn't siege set to ignore armor and have a damage boost in 1.6? Already going to be more powerful.

WRX

Whoops

Ezareth

WTB Sorc C'thun Beam for PvP...

RinaldoGandolphi

tonemd wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

As I said in another post, more powerful siege is the answer to zergs as siege can be used to bust zergs, but zergs can't stack siege together.

You want to counter zergs, then-

Siege does 30-40% more damage to players.

Siege effects and DOTs are not purgable.

Siege ignores 100% of armor and spell/elemental resist.

Siege weapons themselves have hit points reduced 50%

Then the days of waltzing through siege are over. Big zerg blob comes, players can set up tactical siege and fire right into their ranks and inflict heavy damage.

I see better siege as a better solution because you can't stack siege close together, folks will find ways to use another aoe for zerging, they can't do that with siege.

Just my 2 cents

Siege does 30-40% more damage to players. YES

Siege effects and DOTs are not purgable. No

Siege ignores 100% of armor and spell/elemental resist. No

Siege weapons themselves have hit points reduced 50% Yes

Those middle option are a bit too much. You should be allowed to burn your resources purging away DOT effects, making you briefly easier to kill. And ignoring armor and spell resist WHILE augmenting the damage is just OP. maybe lower the percentage to 50%.

Remember, this stuff will hit your 20 man siege as well, not just the roving zergball. Increasing the damage to players AND lowering the siege hit point gives a significant advantage to defenders.

Purging away the dot effects are a big reason siege in its current state isn't good enough.

I realize attackers will be firing this siege at defenders, good. I shouldn't be able to stand on the walls and fire with no consequences or risk.

Besides, crit charge with a two handed sword does more damage the a direct shot with a fire ballista, so anything would be an improvement at thus point.

Siege would not be op because it makes a huge red circle giving you 2.5-3 secs to move, if someone don't move, well it should hit pretty hard, not kill you in one shot but should hit hard. The fact the dots are purgeable with siege is part of the reason its not effective.

RinaldoGandolphi

WRX wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

As I said in another post, more powerful siege is the answer to zergs as siege can be used to bust zergs, but zergs can't stack siege together.

You want to counter zergs, then-

Siege does 30-40% more damage to players.

Siege effects and DOTs are not purgable.

Siege ignores 100% of armor and spell/elemental resist.

Siege weapons themselves have hit points reduced 50%

Then the days of waltzing through siege are over. Big zerg blob comes, players can set up tactical siege and fire right into their ranks and inflict heavy damage.

I see better siege as a better solution because you can't stack siege close together, folks will find ways to use another aoe for zerging, they can't do that with siege.

Just my 2 cents

Yeah because we need a bunch of bads shooting god cannons everywhere.

No thanks.

God cannons? Nah not that far, just siege will then be a viable counter to the zerg groups like the ones you so much like to run, of course you wouldn't want more powerful siege

Sanct16

woodsro wrote: »

tonemd wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

As I said in another post, more powerful siege is the answer to zergs as siege can be used to bust zergs, but zergs can't stack siege together.

You want to counter zergs, then-

Siege does 30-40% more damage to players.

Siege effects and DOTs are not purgable.

Siege ignores 100% of armor and spell/elemental resist.

Siege weapons themselves have hit points reduced 50%

Then the days of waltzing through siege are over. Big zerg blob comes, players can set up tactical siege and fire right into their ranks and inflict heavy damage.

I see better siege as a better solution because you can't stack siege close together, folks will find ways to use another aoe for zerging, they can't do that with siege.

Just my 2 cents

Siege does 30-40% more damage to players. YES

Siege effects and DOTs are not purgable. No

Siege ignores 100% of armor and spell/elemental resist. No

Siege weapons themselves have hit points reduced 50% Yes

Those middle option are a bit too much. You should be allowed to burn your resources purging away DOT effects, making you briefly easier to kill. And ignoring armor and spell resist WHILE augmenting the damage is just OP. maybe lower the percentage to 50%.

Remember, this stuff will hit your 20 man siege as well, not just the roving zergball. Increasing the damage to players AND lowering the siege hit point gives a significant advantage to defenders.

Purging away the dot effects are a big reason siege in its current state isn't good enough.

I realize attackers will be firing this siege at defenders, good. I shouldn't be able to stand on the walls and fire with no consequences or risk.

Besides, crit charge with a two handed sword does more damage the a direct shot with a fire ballista, so anything would be an improvement at thus point.

Siege would not be op because it makes a huge red circle giving you 2.5-3 secs to move, if someone don't move, well it should hit pretty hard, not kill you in one shot but should hit hard. The fact the dots are purgeable with siege is part of the reason its not effective.

Crit Charge hits one guy. Fire Ballista hits everyone. With the DoT Ballistas do more than damage btw. And its AoE. There is no AoE that deals as much damage as sieges. Fire Trebuchets deal 900 instant damage to nonvamps and 1350 to vamps. Time 2 Trebs good and you have 1800-2700 instantdamage. Combined with a meatbag this should be a serious counter to zergs. I think that sieges are powerful enough.

The easiest way would be to just remove the AOE cap which ZOS promised but apparently didnt implement yet on PTS.

Holycannoli

AOE cap removal isn't implemented yet? It's the #1 change I'm looking forward to. It's the one change that will get me to PvP again with any regularity.

WRX

woodsro wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

As I said in another post, more powerful siege is the answer to zergs as siege can be used to bust zergs, but zergs can't stack siege together.

You want to counter zergs, then-

Siege does 30-40% more damage to players.

Siege effects and DOTs are not purgable.

Siege ignores 100% of armor and spell/elemental resist.

Siege weapons themselves have hit points reduced 50%

Then the days of waltzing through siege are over. Big zerg blob comes, players can set up tactical siege and fire right into their ranks and inflict heavy damage.

I see better siege as a better solution because you can't stack siege close together, folks will find ways to use another aoe for zerging, they can't do that with siege.

Just my 2 cents

Yeah because we need a bunch of bads shooting god cannons everywhere.

No thanks.

God cannons? Nah not that far, just siege will then be a viable counter to the zerg groups like the ones you so much like to run, of course you wouldn't want more powerful siege

Zerg groups? That's pretty laughable. Id recommend people improve as players and grow as a team opposed to wanting easy mode by blasting way with ballistas.

Good players can use siege effectively as is.