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1.6.2. Nerf Crushing shock
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Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree that for Magicka DPS Crushing Shock is one of the best ST abilities in the game
Wouldn't it be great if this game, like many others, provided some kind of target dummy so we could actually test this sort of theory?
I hope there are some guilds running veteran content/ trials and providing parser results to ZOS, so actual DPS numbers can inform the tweaking. Because there isn't a lot of actual data being bandied about on the forums. It's difficult to go out and gather anything other than impressions.Edited by Snit on 12 February 2015 16:18Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade1 -
joshisanonymous✭✭✭✭
That's the worst comparison I've ever seen. You're using a DoT to compare to a direct damage ability. The only thing they have in common is the interrupt. Snipe (even as a base ability) does more damage than CS with no stats and is a more accurate ability to compare with CS, even though it has a cast time. Physical abilities however scale MUCH better with increased Stamina & Weapon Damage than Spells do with Magicka & Spell Damage. They kind of have to or Healing would be stupidly OP.Compare DPS of the crushing shock to venom arrow you will know why it was nerfed. 10% nerf isn't that much really, crushing shock was and still is one of the best single target abilities in the game.
I agree that for Magicka DPS Crushing Shock is one of the best ST abilities in the game, but why does that automatically mean it's ok for ZoS to nerf it out of the blue? Like I said before, literally nobody EVER has been ganked by a Crushing Shock build in PvP. Is it a strong ability, yes, is it OP like a few other abilities are in PvP, not remotely i.e. the nerf makes no sense. If ZoS would like to pop in and give us a valid reason for why they nerfed it then we could have a better debate but I wouldn't hold your breath.
How on Earth is Snipe the best ability to compare it to? Snipe is clearly meant to be an opening burst attack, it has a cast time, and it has no CC component, and only one status effect as opposed to three with Crushing Shock. Venom Arrow isn't exactly like Crushing Shock, but it's a hell of a lot closer than Snipe. Snipe just allows you to make this ridiculous argument that Crushing Shock needed that extra 10% damage because an opening burst attack from a completely different weapon line does more damage. That's the only reason you're choosing to compare those two.2 -
Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭joshisanonymous wrote: »
That's the worst comparison I've ever seen. You're using a DoT to compare to a direct damage ability. The only thing they have in common is the interrupt. Snipe (even as a base ability) does more damage than CS with no stats and is a more accurate ability to compare with CS, even though it has a cast time. Physical abilities however scale MUCH better with increased Stamina & Weapon Damage than Spells do with Magicka & Spell Damage. They kind of have to or Healing would be stupidly OP.Compare DPS of the crushing shock to venom arrow you will know why it was nerfed. 10% nerf isn't that much really, crushing shock was and still is one of the best single target abilities in the game.
I agree that for Magicka DPS Crushing Shock is one of the best ST abilities in the game, but why does that automatically mean it's ok for ZoS to nerf it out of the blue? Like I said before, literally nobody EVER has been ganked by a Crushing Shock build in PvP. Is it a strong ability, yes, is it OP like a few other abilities are in PvP, not remotely i.e. the nerf makes no sense. If ZoS would like to pop in and give us a valid reason for why they nerfed it then we could have a better debate but I wouldn't hold your breath.
How on Earth is Snipe the best ability to compare it to? Snipe is clearly meant to be an opening burst attack, it has a cast time, and it has no CC component, and only one status effect as opposed to three with Crushing Shock. Venom Arrow isn't exactly like Crushing Shock, but it's a hell of a lot closer than Snipe. Snipe just allows you to make this ridiculous argument that Crushing Shock needed that extra 10% damage because an opening burst attack from a completely different weapon line does more damage. That's the only reason you're choosing to compare those two.
Actually you are wrong and CS to snipe is a much better comparison than the one you made. Why can you not see this fact?You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points1 -
DeLindsay✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I didn't say it's the best ability to compare it to but it's certainly better than comparing it to a DoT, which is also in the same Weapon tree. CS and Snipe both are Direct damage abilities, Venom Arrow is a DoT, a weak one at that. As I also said about the only thing Venom Arrow and CS have in common is the interrupt. I never said CS needs a 10% buff, but that the 10% nerf makes literally no sense. Reducing it's damage by 10% does not IN ANY WAY help to balance PvP as the person I replied to suggested.joshisanonymous wrote: »How on Earth is Snipe the best ability to compare it to?2 -
Islyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭florian.billeb16_ESO wrote: »
Where do you get these numbers? 20k nope, burst yes ok, but not 20k over 100sec
I took this quote from the Thread titled "Can we get a hot fix on PTS".
Yes, that's 15 Million damage....
People are getting one shotted with Charge also....
I am sorry but I lol'd. That is ridonkulous.0 -
meaglar✭✭On Live 1.5.8 I would say yes that Sorc is the lowest DPS, at least if they are using a Magicka build. Sorc/Templar with a CS build are pretty close, maybe less than 1K apart, pretty much the same as NB/DK being about 1K apart with a CS build. For 2H it's a little more difficult to say for sure as it has only become strong very recently and not many have adopted it yet.
I don't at all agree that everyone should be the same at anything, I'm always a proponent for unique builds/playstyles but there will ALWAYS be FOTM builds in MMO's. I'm not sure how reducing CS's dmg by 10% remotely balances PvP. Snipe, as one of the most popular Stamina DPS abilities, does many times more damage than CS could ever do. I've never heard ANYONE complain they just got ganked by a Crushing Shock build.
Sorcs are fine Healers/Tanks if played by good Players but I certainly agree there's room for improvement for both Roles. 1.6 is changing many things and it's possible that Spell Damage + Magicka stacking is why ZoS is nerfing so many things in 1.6.1 and 1.6.2. If you haven't been on PTS since 1.6.2 to check out what they did to Glyphs, you might want to bring some tissues. It's becoming clear that the Champion System is a mask for a huge "rebalance", i.e. massive nerf to how we've all been playing since launch.
Fare enough... I will start to see how things are gonna be on 1.6.2 tonight.
Just one thing: I didn't say everyone should be the same at anything. I said every class should be fine to play, one way or another...
Cheers.
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danovic✭✭✭Why are sorcs complaining about crushing shock the fact is they should be complaining about there huge casting and travel time of crystal shards the hole line should be instant cast and the sorcs main dd spell. If a sorc is using non sorc abilities to calculate there dps they not helping. The facts should come from a sorcerer only dps rotation to prove there lack of dps.1 -
Vanzen✭✭✭✭✭
But as a DK myself I dont care if they go flappity ... I even want them to go flappity as I flappity back and its over
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daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Why are sorcs complaining about crushing shock the fact is they should be complaining about there huge casting and travel time of crystal shards the hole line should be instant cast and the sorcs main dd spell. If a sorc is using non sorc abilities to calculate there dps they not helping. The facts should come from a sorcerer only dps rotation to prove there lack of dps.
I know, right? But find me a magicka sorc who doesn't DEPEND on Crushing Shock (a weapon skill) for base DPS. Our class skills don't provide any alternative.2 -
cozmon3c_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Why are sorcs complaining about crushing shock the fact is they should be complaining about there huge casting and travel time of crystal shards the hole line should be instant cast and the sorcs main dd spell. If a sorc is using non sorc abilities to calculate there dps they not helping. The facts should come from a sorcerer only dps rotation to prove there lack of dps.
I know, right? But find me a magicka sorc who doesn't DEPEND on Crushing Shock (a weapon skill) for base DPS. Our class skills don't provide any alternative.
For pve this is true for me, but for pvp I have always relied on curse and shard proc. What needs to be removed from frag is that global Cooldown after an instant cast frag, only then will people use it in pve as well. Why is it even there if it's instant cast ability?Why are sorcs complaining about crushing shock the fact is they should be complaining about there huge casting and travel time of crystal shards the hole line should be instant cast and the sorcs main dd spell. If a sorc is using non sorc abilities to calculate there dps they not helping. The facts should come from a sorcerer only dps rotation to prove there lack of dps.
I know, right? But find me a magicka sorc who doesn't DEPEND on Crushing Shock (a weapon skill) for base DPS. Our class skills don't provide any alternative.Edited by cozmon3c_ESO on 12 February 2015 18:59Guild UMBRA Chapter Lead
~Leper Si -V14 Sorcerer~
Youtube Channel - Leper
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheCozmon3c/videos3 -
XEVENEX✭✭✭✭cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »Why are sorcs complaining about crushing shock the fact is they should be complaining about there huge casting and travel time of crystal shards the hole line should be instant cast and the sorcs main dd spell. If a sorc is using non sorc abilities to calculate there dps they not helping. The facts should come from a sorcerer only dps rotation to prove there lack of dps.
I know, right? But find me a magicka sorc who doesn't DEPEND on Crushing Shock (a weapon skill) for base DPS. Our class skills don't provide any alternative.
For pve this is true for me, but for pvp I have always relied on curse and shard proc.Why are sorcs complaining about crushing shock the fact is they should be complaining about there huge casting and travel time of crystal shards the hole line should be instant cast and the sorcs main dd spell. If a sorc is using non sorc abilities to calculate there dps they not helping. The facts should come from a sorcerer only dps rotation to prove there lack of dps.
I know, right? But find me a magicka sorc who doesn't DEPEND on Crushing Shock (a weapon skill) for base DPS. Our class skills don't provide any alternative.
Are you out of your mind? 6000 curse / 3.5 seconds = 1714 DPS and a chance at a shard once every 3.5 seconds. Thats not even terrible, its so much worse than terrible that I lack the vocabulary to descibe it. Curse is not a main DPS skill. It complements it.Edited by XEVENEX on 12 February 2015 22:353 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »I really wish sorcerers would stop claiming ownership of this skill.
Every magicka based DPS from every class and their mother used this skill because it blows away every other alternative.
Really not hard to figure out when people stop viewing the game through the biased lens of their own DPS.
Correct me if I am wrong but, I do not see anyone using CS in PVE unless they are sorcerers. That is the case because sorcerers do not have anything better than CS, whereas other classes have better things so they do not use CS. And that is sad, the lowest DPS class has to use a skill which is not desirable by other classes... And that skill got nerfed.
Coming to PVP on the other hand, if sorcs needs to be nerfed in PVP (I say if, because I did not try PVP in PTS), just do it... just find the balance... But in a proper way...
See, game is not only PVP, but even more PVE. Sorcerers are already at the bottom in PVE, so find the proper way to give them better PVE abilities, while balancing the PVP...
Thanks all I ask for...
You are *very* wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5AQ40JVru0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzUqacpDC3A
Healing Templars use it when asked to DPS and my NB friends tell me it is higher DPS than Funnel Health. This single skill is the cornerstone for *every* magicka based DPS.
You are right about one thing, sorcs don't have anything better and that is precisely the reason why my DK will always beat your sorc in raid DPS. I can use unstable flame and engulfing flames and flames of oblivion to supplement my crushing shock while you have ... nothing else.
Sorcs are their own worst enemies. They tell ZoS to buff CS...fine let's say they get their wish...guess what I will *still* beat you because my DK uses that skill. Certain other sorcs come on these threads and gloat about how THEY can pull 1.4 DPS (while not uploading videos to prove this as DKs do). If I was someone who derived pleasure from schadenfreude, then all this would be most amusing...
Edited by Joy_Division on 12 February 2015 23:001 -
ArconSeptim✭✭✭✭Again sorc whiners, whine about 2h skill line which is shared between all classes...3
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Robbmrp✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well, it got nerfed and Dawnbreaker does not make it OP anymore, but you know that surge will get you're 10% back, and more.
Critical Surge is worthless in 1.6.2 if you use DoT's at all. They take up all the Crit heals and give about 50 health at most with the cool down that's been added. In order for it to be viable again they need to remove DoT's from applying to it.NA Server - Kildair1 -
Robbmrp✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree that for Magicka DPS Crushing Shock is one of the best ST abilities in the game
Wouldn't it be great if this game, like many others, provided some kind of target dummy so we could actually test this sort of theory?
I hope there are some guilds running veteran content/ trials and providing parser results to ZOS, so actual DPS numbers can inform the tweaking. Because there isn't a lot of actual data being bandied about on the forums. It's difficult to go out and gather anything other than impressions.
There are target dummies all over the zone....in Cyrodil
lol NA Server - Kildair0 -
Robbmrp✭✭✭✭✭
✭florian.billeb16_ESO wrote: »
Where do you get these numbers? 20k nope, burst yes ok, but not 20k over 100sec
I took this quote from the Thread titled "Can we get a hot fix on PTS".
Yes, that's 15 Million damage....
People are getting one shotted with Charge also....
I am sorry but I lol'd. That is ridonkulous.
It's all good, it's such a joke that it's happening in the first place
NA Server - Kildair0 -
eliisra✭✭✭✭✭
✭I know, right? But find me a magicka sorc who doesn't DEPEND on Crushing Shock (a weapon skill) for base DPS. Our class skills don't provide any alternative.
Find me a DK, NB or templar caster dps not using Crushing Shock...
No class has any actual alternatives for raw caster dps. How much dps you think I'd get spamming Dark Flare on a boss as a templar lol? Or on my DK when not having a ranged nuke for disconnects? My NB can get away with Funnel Health spam sure, but than I'm playing semi-support, it's a dps loss compared to Crushing Shock.
I don't like this nerf either, for many reasons. But still, it's hardly some exclusive sorc punishment.1 -
Robbmrp✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've never used CS on my templar. For that matter, I never even used a Destro staff on him either. I started out with a DW build, then went Sword and Board and had that mainly till V14. Then handed in all that for Resto Staff because it's easier to get in a group when your the main healer!NA Server - Kildair0 -
jopeymonster✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I really wish sorcerers would stop claiming ownership of this skill.
Every magicka based DPS from every class and their mother used this skill because it blows away every other alternative.
Really not hard to figure out when people stop viewing the game through the biased lens of their own DPS.
Correct me if I am wrong but, I do not see anyone using CS in PVE unless they are sorcerers. That is the case because sorcerers do not have anything better than CS, whereas other classes have better things so they do not use CS. And that is sad, the lowest DPS class has to use a skill which is not desirable by other classes... And that skill got nerfed.
Coming to PVP on the other hand, if sorcs needs to be nerfed in PVP (I say if, because I did not try PVP in PTS), just do it... just find the balance... But in a proper way...
See, game is not only PVP, but even more PVE. Sorcerers are already at the bottom in PVE, so find the proper way to give them better PVE abilities, while balancing the PVP...
Thanks all I ask for...
You are *very* wrong.
Healing Templars use it when asked to DPS and my NB friends tell me it is higher DPS than Funnel Health. This single skill is the cornerstone for *every* magicka based DPS.
You are right about one thing, sorcs don't have anything better and that is precisely the reason why my DK will always beat your sorc in raid DPS. I can use unstable flame and engulfing flames and flames of oblivion to supplement my crushing shock while you have ... nothing else.
Sorcs are their own worst enemies. They tell ZoS to buff CS...fine let's say they get their wish...guess what I will *still* beat you because my DK uses that skill. Certain other sorcs come on these threads and gloat about how THEY can pull 1.4 DPS (while not uploading videos to prove this as DKs do). If I was someone who derived pleasure from schadenfreude, then all this would be most amusing...
Summed up about right. CS is a weapon ability and should be supplemented with class abilities. If you find your DPS is lacking when using a CS build, maybe it's not CS, but the abilities being used along side it.
@JoyDivsion nice use of the german derived noun. That will be my word of the day!#nerfkeyboards1 -
Vordae✭✭✭The real problem with Crushing shock is not the damage. It's the fact that it interrupts and has a 40% chance to apply all 3 elemental status effects. 1 skill that can stun, slow, reduces targets damage, and burn them. They need to increase the damage on crushing shock but make it only do the damage type of the staff you are wielding. This will reduce the utility of it and justify the skill doing more damage.3 -
Domander✭✭✭✭✭
✭joshisanonymous wrote: »If Crushing Shock didn't need to be nerfed, then why has it recently become the sole DPS ability for a large number of PvP builds? When every other dueler seems to be running a build centered on using nothing but Crushing Shock for DPS, there's gotta be something up with it.
Because there is no other option ?
Ranged magical DPS' rely on crushing shock, there is no other option. And crushing shock does not give us compareable DPS, that melee DPS's can do.
Crushing shock already got nerfed, since it is not affected by flawless dawnbreaker anymore. They should have increased the damage to balance it, but they decide to decrease it even further -.- this is ridiculous and it's making me angry.
The range gives you an advantage that melee dps does not have. If damage was equal, why melee? It's kind of a risk vs reward thing.0 -
DeLindsay✭✭✭✭✭
✭
A perfectly reasonable solution. Sadly the word reasonable has probably never been uttered in the halls of ZoSThe real problem with Crushing shock is not the damage. It's the fact that it interrupts and has a 40% chance to apply all 3 elemental status effects. 1 skill that can stun, slow, reduces targets damage, and burn them. They need to increase the damage on crushing shock but make it only do the damage type of the staff you are wielding. This will reduce the utility of it and justify the skill doing more damage. 0 -
xMovingTarget✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I really wish sorcerers would stop claiming ownership of this skill.
Every magicka based DPS from every class and their mother used this skill because it blows away every other alternative.
Really not hard to figure out when people stop viewing the game through the biased lens of their own DPS.
Correct me if I am wrong but, I do not see anyone using CS in PVE unless they are sorcerers. That is the case because sorcerers do not have anything better than CS, whereas other classes have better things so they do not use CS. And that is sad, the lowest DPS class has to use a skill which is not desirable by other classes... And that skill got nerfed.
Coming to PVP on the other hand, if sorcs needs to be nerfed in PVP (I say if, because I did not try PVP in PTS), just do it... just find the balance... But in a proper way...
See, game is not only PVP, but even more PVE. Sorcerers are already at the bottom in PVE, so find the proper way to give them better PVE abilities, while balancing the PVP...
Thanks all I ask for...
You are *very* wrong.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5AQ40JVru0https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzUqacpDC3A
O hai, thats me. Yes, every good Magicka DPS build contains Crushing shock. On all classes!1 -
TheBull✭✭✭✭✭
✭2h user here. Uppercut needs to be toned down a bit.Killed by Sunshine 1vX How I see it.
Killed by Early Bright - Blood Flow - Magicka NB Build
Twitch - SunshineNB
Youtube - The Redguard0 -
Feidam✭✭✭
In PVE I agree somewhat, in pvp not a chance. Just about every melee you see has a gap closer. So much for the risk factor.joshisanonymous wrote: »If Crushing Shock didn't need to be nerfed, then why has it recently become the sole DPS ability for a large number of PvP builds? When every other dueler seems to be running a build centered on using nothing but Crushing Shock for DPS, there's gotta be something up with it.
Because there is no other option ?
Ranged magical DPS' rely on crushing shock, there is no other option. And crushing shock does not give us compareable DPS, that melee DPS's can do.
Crushing shock already got nerfed, since it is not affected by flawless dawnbreaker anymore. They should have increased the damage to balance it, but they decide to decrease it even further -.- this is ridiculous and it's making me angry.
The range gives you an advantage that melee dps does not have. If damage was equal, why melee? It's kind of a risk vs reward thing.
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Palidon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just another reason why some players are leaving the game. Don't know what kind of mind set ZOS is in and the reasoning behind this nerf. In my opinion it is wrong and totally unwarranted. Those folks who play characters who use Crushing Shot have evey reason to complain and ZOS needs to listen.1 -
Yusuf✭✭✭✭✭Crushing shock may have deserved a nerf, but sorcerers need a serious buff in pve. In pvp, they are more or less fine, but in pve, with CS nerf, they barely have half the dps of a NB…
Wait!... So a NB can get twice the dps a Sorc can, if both are using CS?
All joking aside, if you want to compare classes to classes, you have to leave weapon choice out of it. If you want to bring weapon choice into the discussion, you have to include everyone equally.
What I am hearing is more of a complain about a change in your preferred playstyle. It really has nothing to do with your chosen class.
Also, when spouting DPS comparisons, you should include encounters that the system is designed around. IE.. The system generally accepts that melee will have to stop dps on a boss during certain phases to avoid typical melee wiping abilities, whereas ranged doesn't normally need to stop, to move.
DPS comparisons where neither parthy has to move to avoid these mechanics will indeed result in a scewed result, since melee damage is designed for more burst than sustained do to less dps windows comparatively.
Sorcerers don't have any instant magic-based dps-ability, which is why crushing shock was used by almost all of them. Take that away and you only see them wiggle around with their arms for that 1-sec-crystal-fragments-cast.
Now i'm pretty sure nobody wants to be oneshotted by a 20k-crystalfrag but with that cooldown we might need an immense damageboost for that skill.
Its either crushingshock or ZOS needs to buff cristalfragments by 50% to make it a viable option without it.
And i'm pretty sure the pvpers are against that so pick your evil i guess.2
