Let's talk about Argonians - Race Change please

Varicite

TL;DR at bottom. : )

This topic comes up often, it's true. I'm not here to beat on the dead horse for the same old reasons, though.

I have never been a supporter of race changes in the past simply because somebody wants to min / max their build better, or because they "picked the wrong race" on the character selection screen for the build they finally decided to stick w/.

HOWEVER, now there seems to be a better reason for a race change: Argonians.

As many may already know, in 1.6 the only really good Argonian passive has been completely reworked into a far lesser version that no longer works w/ the only build that took advantage of the old passive.

Some of us picked the perfect race for our build, and had literally every passive related to that build completely removed from the game a year later, including our racial.

Personally, I think that's a far more logical reason to request a type of one-time race change.

When ZOS completely changes or removes an ability, they refund the points or give free respecs. I fail to see how this is any different. Only there is far less recovery from a blow like this than having to change a morph on a skill.

Potion Speed glyphs, NB +15% potion strength passive Catalyst, and Argonian +15% potion strength passive have all been removed entirely from the game, as well as raising the base potion cooldown to 45 seconds.

That is 3x worse than what it was for Thirsty builds, and honestly the largest nerf to any single build in the game, imo.

I didn't make a "bad choice". ZOS made my choice a bad one after an entire year of progressing my character, and there's absolutely no way that any Argonian players who actually sought to take advantage of their one unique racial could have known this was coming.

There was not even a hint that this may happen from ZOS. In the past, racials have been changed, but normally these things were spoken about in advance, and in most cases the replacement racial was actually better than what was removed.

This is not the same kind of case. They have removed an okay racial for a really bad one, especially in light of the other changes.

TL;DR - ZOS has given free respecs and refunded skill points in the past when making drastic changes to abilities / morphs.

ZOS has made drastic changes to the Argonian racial passive, and the potion speed build (Thirsty build, to some) is completely unrecoverable now.

ZOS should give a free one-time race change to Argonian players for completely destroying their single decent racial, especially in light of having removed softcaps and making the "good races" even stronger.

All while making what is widely regarded as one of the "weakest" races even weaker.

ZOS, you've completely gutted my race and entire reason for having chosen my race. I'd like you to refund my race now. Thanks. : )

Sacadon

Ever noticed how all the ZOS vids, fluffers etc... always use Argonians? Their passives may or may not be lore accurate, but they most definitely suck in terms of competiveness against the other races. I get that 1.6 is a huge change, but was very surprised to see no lizard love.

kimboh

Generally I don't support race changes but I agree, Argonians are an exception.

However I would prefer a rework on their passives than a race change.

Slurg

What is the new racial passive and why can't I find it in the patch notes? Does it benefit anyone?

Varicite

Slurg wrote: »

What is the new racial passive and why can't I find it in the patch notes? Does it benefit anyone?

Edit: Link to list of 1.6 racial passives

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/152091/racial-disparity-with-full-list/p1

Old passive: +15% potion strength of any type of potion

New passive: +6% of your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina when drinking potions

On the surface, this may look like a somewhat comparable racial passive, but we need to take into account a few other changes.

In 1.5, Thirsty build potion cooldown is 15 seconds, so over 1 minute, you were receiving +60% potion effectiveness (+30% w/out potion speed glyphs).

In 1.6, all potions have a 45 second cooldown, so while +18% base stats might sound pretty close, over a 1 minute period you are actually only receiving that 18% instead of the +60% benefit you would have gotten before.

Even at a best case scenario, it's a 12% nerf to effectiveness that just gets even worse over time.

You also need to take into account that before the racial provided a huge amount of flexibility to a race that receives no real stat bonuses, etc. The new racial completely throws this flexibility out the window for a tiny boost to resource regen.

The racial is already the only one in the game tied to your wallet, there doesn't seem to be any point in nerfing its effectiveness so drastically.

If they changed the Imperial passives from 15% health / 10% stamina / health drain into something like.. 5% health / 1% stamina / health drain once per minuted, I do believe people might be a little upset.

Dragath

Official Statement is, they want to work on the Racials in a future Update. They should have done it now.
The Racial Balance was bad, and after the softcaps are gone, its horrible.
Race Change should be available in the Crown Store, but Racials need a rework asap.

Tamanous

What twists my mind out of the fabric of reality is how ZoS has COMPLETELY ignored Argonian player complaints since beta that their racials are vastly subpar mathematically in combat against the +10% stat races (unless abusing a gimicky potion cooldown mechanic) and proceed to nerf them so they gain nearly zero benefit in combat dps from their racials.

How blind is ZoS? Should potions have been changed? I agree ... they should have been changed. Does a race have to be nerfed due to this? HELL F***ING NO! The exact instant I read the potion changes and noticed the UNDOCUMENTED changes to Argonian passives I recognized how much of a massive nerf this was to the race. How the Sam Hell did ZoS NOT see this and simply add a buff to their racial passives outside of potions to simply put them on par with other races?

What builds are Argonians good for now for min/maxing? Absolutely no dps build. None. Self healing tanks is about all I can think of. If ZoS supports min/maxing they must ensure greater balance exists. It only takes a very minor tweak to offset this nerf ... yet ZoS has proved once again no capable of understanding their own global changes. Why can players notice these things instantly yet the developer of the game cannot? That is the root of the frustration.

Gyudan

I agree that argonian passive is now one of the weakest with orcs, but that doesn't justify a race change.

Suggestion: 3% bonus to max health, stamina and magicka.
(in addition to the current passives)

Panda244

If they change racial passives, every player of that race should have the option of changing their race. It's like you rolled a Templar to heal, and then a year later, they made the Templar a DPS class and gave all the good heals to a different class.

Mumyo

Sacadon wrote: »

Ever noticed how all the ZOS vids, fluffers etc... always use Argonians? There passives may or may not be lore accurate, but they most definitely suck in terms of competiveness against the other races. I get that 1.6 is a huge change, but was very surprised to see no lizard love.

U dont know what bad is until u played Nord.
U can now drink any pot u wish and get those 3 attributes aswell. I wouldnt call that a nerf.

Mumyo

Panda244 wrote: »

If they change racial passives, every player of that race should have the option of changing their race. It's like you rolled a Templar to heal, and then a year later, they made the Templar a DPS class and gave all the good heals to a different class.

If u take a look at the class description-the Templar was supposed to be the best allrounder in game.
There was allways mentioned that he deals great amounts of damage

newtinmpls

Normally I hate race changes, but with such strong changes, I can see a 'we changed the stuff/one time change' similar to redoining stats when ability trees are changed.

Darkonflare15

It was 30% potion effectiveness for Catalyst and 15% effectiveness. I would like for Argonians to have better racial. Argonains are suppose to be tough they survive Black Marsh where everything is trying to eat them. They had the Histskin ability that allow them to gain health faster. All I want more max health. more healing revived, or some kind way to gain health because of its not fair that we do not get at least one huge stat boost. That the imperial race get to have max health and max stamina boost while Argonains do not get a big boost in surviving.

Sacadon

Mumyo wrote: »

Sacadon wrote: »

Ever noticed how all the ZOS vids, fluffers etc... always use Argonians? There passives may or may not be lore accurate, but they most definitely suck in terms of competiveness against the other races. I get that 1.6 is a huge change, but was very surprised to see no lizard love.

U dont know what bad is until u played Nord.
U can now drink any pot u wish and get those 3 attributes aswell. I wouldnt call that a nerf.

Yup, Nord passive aren't great either. My comment was not to imply a nerf was made only that I'm surprised they didn't put them on par with races like imp and dark elf... The only subpar aspect of Nord is the frost, otherwise it would be great for tank, but imperial still wins.

Wolfshade

Mumyo wrote: »

U can now drink any pot u wish and get those 3 attributes aswell. I wouldnt call that a nerf.

If this will reach the live servers, sure. But i`am not sure till i see it, and i don`t believe that it will be there for a long term.

But one thing was/is sure, after they took us our "Histskin", we need something that make use more equal to other races, and make us more that, what zos want us to be right from the beginning.

What`s wrong with the nord? More lifereg and reduced dmg, you call this bad?

Tamanous

Mumyo wrote: »

Sacadon wrote: »

Ever noticed how all the ZOS vids, fluffers etc... always use Argonians? There passives may or may not be lore accurate, but they most definitely suck in terms of competiveness against the other races. I get that 1.6 is a huge change, but was very surprised to see no lizard love.

U dont know what bad is until u played Nord.
U can now drink any pot u wish and get those 3 attributes aswell. I wouldnt call that a nerf.

Compared to what is was prior it is a flat out nerf. Getting +6% to all stats every 45 seconds likely is inferior to racial passives that give % gain to in combat stat return over 45 seconds considering soft caps are gone. The only way I could consider this acceptable is if the the +6% health return on a potion stacked with Argonian self heal bonus AND NB's potion bonus. Until I hear this is so I will believe this isn't the case. I fear it is an external calculation which makes the bonus vastly inferior by comparison.

Argonians took a hit from the nerf bat ... simply because ZoS made a broken potion system.

clocksstoppe

Your build revolved around stacking passives to get insane damage bonuses from potions. You knew they could change skills at any time yet proceeded to roll a build where if only one of them gets nerfed then you get wrecked. I would say it is, in fact, your bad choice.

They don't have a way to let existing characters change their race, otherwise you would have seen it in the crown store. You will still get a free respec so you can change your tactics, but picking argonian just for that passive is an epic mistake.

Wolfshade

clocksstoppe wrote: »

but picking argonian just for that passive is an epic mistake.

Sorry, but no that isn`t the mistake. You say the same to an darkelve dk?

Tamanous wrote: »

if the the +6% health return on a potion stacked with Argonian self heal bonus AND NB's potion bonus

...just think about it!

Shuichi

Guess what? Potion speed builds were probably never an intended mechanic for this game. Instead of complaining about this build we should try to come together as a community to figure out NEW ways of being viable, instead of creating this toxic "GIVE RACE CHANGE NAO" mentality so many of us seem to have.

Xsorus

I built my argonian nightblade exactly for this, and then they changed it completely

Varicite

Mumyo wrote: »

Sacadon wrote: »

Ever noticed how all the ZOS vids, fluffers etc... always use Argonians? There passives may or may not be lore accurate, but they most definitely suck in terms of competiveness against the other races. I get that 1.6 is a huge change, but was very surprised to see no lizard love.

U dont know what bad is until u played Nord.
U can now drink any pot u wish and get those 3 attributes aswell. I wouldnt call that a nerf.

The damage resistance passive that Nords got is unique and pretty good, much better than the armor passive that it replaced.

You seem to be missing the point, though.

You can't drink potions nearly as much now, for one. When you double the cooldown on something and keep the percentage boost nearly the same, that is a 50% nerf. So yes, that is a nerf.

And the previous passive applied to ANY potion.

Now you can ONLY get health / magicka / stam. No more crit, weapon damage, spell damage, etc. No more choices.

Varicite

clocksstoppe wrote: »

but picking argonian just for that passive is an epic mistake.

I disagree.

Picking a race for a specific passive to build around is extremely common practice.

That is why each race gets a unique racial.

I don't buy that the mechanic was unintended, the synergies are just as obvious as Dunmer + DK fire mage, Imperial + tank, etc.

I think that ZOS fully intended it, but as they are finally trying to balance things out, decided that haste mechanics and potions were throwing a lot of their calculations out of whack, and opted to remove / adjust them.

I can fully understand and accept that. I'm not "mad bro".

However, there is the matter of a drastically changed racial that no longer measures up, and the fact that there has been zero mention over the past year that anything was even remotely wrong w/ potions or the Argonian racial.

That's a lot of progression; a grind so long that "just reroll" begins to sound more like a joke than a valid suggestion.

In similar cases, ZOS has understood this and offered free respecs and refunds of skill points. It's not a foreign concept to them that if people had any idea that's what it was going to be turned into, they might not have picked it in the first place.

I'd honestly just like for ZOS to we igh in on the issue, perhaps at least acknowledge that the replacement racial simply doesn't cut it in the fabric of the new game in 1.6 and that many of us likely would not have picked Argonians for our role if not for mechanics that have been entirely removed.

Digiman

Varicite wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

but picking argonian just for that passive is an epic mistake.

I disagree.

Picking a race for a specific passive to build around is extremely common practice.

That is why each race gets a unique racial.

You design your character around racials you get what's coming to you when they are changed.

I really can't see the issue, these racials require skill points to invest to become active right? Invest the skill points in something else.

Min/maxing or designing a spec on particular ability in an MMO that constantly changes doesn't require ZoS to provide refunds. Your only choice is to reroll to something else, or get used to loving your character for who it is now.

As for them refunding skill point, again that isn't requirement by ZoS that's a courtesy. Get over it.

Aquanova

Take away racial bonuses all together and let us choose the perk or stat bonuses we want on our characters. Stat bonuses and perks should never have been assigned to races from the start. Race choice should be purely cosmetic and not give a tactical advantage to one or the other, regardless of the lore.

Slurg

Varicite wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

What is the new racial passive and why can't I find it in the patch notes? Does it benefit anyone?

Old passive: +15% potion strength of any type of potion

New passive: +6% of your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina when drinking potions

On the surface, this may look like a somewhat comparable racial passive, but we need to take into account a few other changes.

In 1.5, Thirsty build potion cooldown is 15 seconds, so over 1 minute, you were receiving +60% potion effectiveness (+30% w/out potion speed glyphs).

In 1.6, all potions have a 45 second cooldown, so while +18% base stats might sound pretty close, over a 1 minute period you are actually only receiving that 18% instead of the +60% benefit you would have gotten before.

Even at a best case scenario, it's a 12% nerf to effectiveness that just gets even worse over time.

You also need to take into account that before the racial provided a huge amount of flexibility to a race that receives no real stat bonuses, etc. The new racial completely throws this flexibility out the window for a tiny boost to resource regen.

The racial is already the only one in the game tied to your wallet, there doesn't seem to be any point in nerfing its effectiveness so drastically.

If they changed the Imperial passives from 15% health / 10% stamina / health drain into something like.. 5% health / 1% stamina / health drain once per minuted, I do believe people might be a little upset.

Oh. You're right, that isn't a very impressive substitution.

Varicite

Digiman wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

but picking argonian just for that passive is an epic mistake.

I disagree.

Picking a race for a specific passive to build around is extremely common practice.

That is why each race gets a unique racial.

You design your character around racials you get what's coming to you when they are changed.

I really can't see the issue, these racials require skill points to invest to become active right? Invest the skill points in something else.

Min/maxing or designing a spec on particular ability in an MMO that constantly changes doesn't require ZoS to provide refunds. Your only choice is to reroll to something else, or get used to loving your character for who it is now.

As for them refunding skill point, again that isn't requirement by ZoS that's a courtesy. Get over it.

You're welcome to disagree, which you obviously do.

The point of the thread isn't to convince you of my point of view, just as your "get over it" sentiment isn't going to convince me that my request is in any way unreasonable.

There are a ton of issues to be looked at in 1.6, and I'd really like it if this one isn't completely swept under the carpet.

ZOS has mentioned that they were going to be taking a look at racials again. I'm giving my opinion that the Argonian replacement racial isn't nearly strong enough to be considered comparable to what we're losing.

If a race change is out of the question due to technical limitations, I can understand that.

I sincerely hope that at the very least, ZOS considers this passive a (very weak) placeholder for when they look at racials globally, and replace it again w/ something more substantial.

Wolfshade

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I built my argonian nightblade exactly for this, and then they changed it completely

Yeah, me too.

Varicite wrote: »

Now you can ONLY get health / magicka / stam. No more crit, weapon damage, spell damage, etc. No more choices.

And now, exactly this is the point. It seems, that potions in future are just useable for health, magicka and stam. But there are a lot of nice and usefull potions out there and I use always two/three, for different situations. And if this will be the way, they took the whole usefull variety of potions in the game. But exactly this variety is (was/ was mentioned as) one of the strenght from eso.

Varicite wrote: »

I think that ZOS fully intended it, but as they are finally trying to balance things out, decided that haste mechanics and potions were throwing a lot of their calculations out of whack, and opted to remove / adjust them

Thats right and i fully understand this. Till now, myself hadn`t the chance to test it propper. Thats why i`am (till now) will not call it a nerf. If they would change the other racials too, i wouldn`t have any problem with it. Now they say they will look at all racials, but when? In one year, two years?

Did the touched other racials in similar cases, i cant remember.

Jar_Ek

I think we have to remember that the nerf to the Argonian potion passive is combined with some of the most lacklustre passives in the game. A resistance coupled with 3% health and a 6% healing received. The combined set does not conjure a well thought out race, but a hodgepodge, thrown together mess. It makes for a bad DPS and healer race, and a pretty sub par tank race. It also does not link very well with the lore.

One way to fix racials could be to ensure that every race has a 10% Max stat racial for a start. Then to consider making each races set of passives create an actual racial theme... and state the theme. Argonians might be survival for example. I'm not sure that potion drinker is a theme however.

Tonnopesce

We have to pay a price to be awesome!!!!!!

---

ARGONIAN MASTERRACE

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xMovingTarget

Argonians, you were born slave, you stay Slave! Dunmer Masterrace!

ashlee17

I share your concerns about the changes to argonians pasives op. But I am quite fond of my argonians amphibous alure and would hate to have to change his appearance just for better racial pasives. So this is what I have come up with-

A fair solution for all...

Since the racial pasives of many races have been changed several times already since the beginning of ESO I think it would be fair to offer all players a way to change their native racial pasives.

I propose that zos give all characters the ability to unlock and "channel the spirit" (aka passives) of another race.

This would allow any race to use the passive a of any other race in place of their own, while retaining the "look" of there original race.

The different racial passives could be unlocked though a series of quests or as an addition to the champion system.

It would work in a similar style to Mundas stone effects.

As the changes have affected all characters this option should be avalible to all, though a way to speed up the unlock "could" be sold though the cash shop.

This might be a fair solution to the problems that have arisen by zos continually changing racial pasives now and into the future.

Thanks for reading. We have a verry passionate community here on the forums so please be kind to my humble idea