Let's talk about Argonians - Race Change please

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Digiman wrote: »

OMG you people against this are so sad. Whenever you drink a potion you get 6% of max health, magicka, stamina. That includes any potion, no matter what level, be it 1 or VR 14. That's a golden ticket especially in a 1vs1, and it could be any potion no matter the effect, Immovable, armor, spell power, crit weapon crit you no longer bound by having to stick with regenerative type potions.

Even then the amounts you get if you picked one would be phenomenal. OMG this is so pathetically insulting. Weak race, what a joke.

Secondly You realize all racials are getting a tune up with the removal of soft cap? Besides thirsty was like a jewelry enchant that stacked, it was pigeon holding you into one thing. Now you get a racial that really shakes things up for combat.

I was tettering between a NB khajitt or Argonian, with this racials its argonian now.

Not sure if you're trolling or not, but I'll respond anyways.

The current live passive is far more versatile as it makes all potion types of effects (heals/stat replenish, regens, damage, crit, invisibility, run speed) stronger -- and when combined with the NB passive Catalyst, it was even better. I'm not wholly opposed to the new 1.6 passive, but given (1) how the global potion cooldown has been increased to 45 seconds, (2) removal of softcaps and imbalance between races due to high %stat bonuses, and (3) 6% of your stats is less than most skills costs, and much less than damage you receive from incoming attacks (not to mention barely more than a tick or 2 of regen), the new Argonian passive is simply a downgrade. Check out my recent thread for a more comprehensive explanation of how potions have changed, and how this affects gamplay and class/race balance.

They had to change potion effectiveness passives because potion effects were integrated into the new Major/Minor buff system. We all understand that. But what they replaced them with are very underwhelming compared to what we already have.

bellanca6561n

I understand, I do. Everyone feels cheated by change that diminishes their character.

However, if you're choosing a race solely due to some game granted combat power it gives you then I wonder if you're missing out no matter what that power is.

Aeratus

PlagueMonk wrote: »

If I was to redesign our passives i would get rid of the stupid resto staff exp and do the following:

Guerrilla Warfare Expertise (3 ranks) – Increases stealth speed by (7/14/21)% and increases damage done while stealthed by (3/6/9)%

Amphibian Physiology (3 ranks) – Increases swimming speed by 50% and armor rating by (3/6/9)%

Argonian Resistance (3 ranks) – Increases maximum Health by (3/6/9)% and Poison/Disease resistance by (10/20/30). Disease resistance should apply directly to disease abilities, lessening their effect by a flat amount (including meatbag cats)

Quick to Mend (3 ranks) – Increases healing received by (4/8/12)% and health regen (7/14/21)%.

AND if/when underwater zones come, we should get the ability to breathe underwater dammit!


Note that most of the abilities I changed out are directly from other races.

Wow this is twice as OP as the current dunmer/imperial.

Tamanous

Digiman wrote: »

OMG you people against this are so sad. Whenever you drink a potion you get 6% of max health, magicka, stamina. That includes any potion, no matter what level, be it 1 or VR 14. That's a golden ticket especially in a 1vs1, and it could be any potion no matter the effect, Immovable, armor, spell power, crit weapon crit you no longer bound by having to stick with regenerative type potions.

Even then the amounts you get if you picked one would be phenomenal. OMG this is so pathetically insulting. Weak race, what a joke.

Secondly You realize all racials are getting a tune up with the removal of soft cap? Besides thirsty was like a jewelry enchant that stacked, it was pigeon holding you into one thing. Now you get a racial that really shakes things up for combat.

I was tettering between a NB khajitt or Argonian, with this racials its argonian now.

You are incorrect sir.

Digiman

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

OMG you people against this are so sad. Whenever you drink a potion you get 6% of max health, magicka, stamina. That includes any potion, no matter what level, be it 1 or VR 14. That's a golden ticket especially in a 1vs1, and it could be any potion no matter the effect, Immovable, armor, spell power, crit weapon crit you no longer bound by having to stick with regenerative type potions.

Even then the amounts you get if you picked one would be phenomenal. OMG this is so pathetically insulting. Weak race, what a joke.

Secondly You realize all racials are getting a tune up with the removal of soft cap? Besides thirsty was like a jewelry enchant that stacked, it was pigeon holding you into one thing. Now you get a racial that really shakes things up for combat.

I was tettering between a NB khajitt or Argonian, with this racials its argonian now.

Not sure if you're trolling or not, but I'll respond anyways.

The current live passive is far more versatile as it makes all potion types of effects (heals/stat replenish, regens, damage, crit, invisibility, run speed) stronger -- and when combined with the NB passive Catalyst, it was even better. I'm not wholly opposed to the new 1.6 passive, but given (1) how the global potion cooldown has been increased to 45 seconds, (2) removal of softcaps and imbalance between races due to high %stat bonuses, and (3) 6% of your stats is less than most skills costs, and much less than damage you receive from incoming attacks (not to mention barely more than a tick or 2 of regen), the new Argonian passive is simply a downgrade. Check out my recent thread for a more comprehensive explanation of how potions have changed, and how this affects gamplay and class/race balance.

They had to change potion effectiveness passives because potion effects were integrated into the new Major/Minor buff system. We all understand that. But what they replaced them with are very underwhelming compared to what we already have.

Well there you have it, You answered your own question and the others out there. Because clearly you said with the changes of stats then the new passive is a mere drop in the bucket. Just like all the other racials out there.

With the new buff/debuff system I would say it was warranted. Eitherway it seems you have gotten out this with more from my perspective then most other races will with the change, and with the 45 second global effecting EVERYONE it seems more likely you will get more from your 45 second potion CD then others will.

bellanca6561n wrote: »

I understand, I do. Everyone feels cheated by change that diminishes their character.

However, if you're choosing a race solely due to some game granted combat power it gives you then I wonder if you're missing out no matter what that power is.

Agreed, if you base something on a flimsy ability like 30% potion effectiveness and mechanic with a CD instead of why you picked your character then you get everything coming to you when its changed.

You deserve what's coming to you, eitherway if they change altmer it wouldn't matter to me because I picked the race for the race itself not its racials.

Draxys

A few guilds have personally asked them in guild leader meetings to allow a one time race change if these changes are permanent. Let's hope they agree to do so, because they also screwed Dunmer fire resist and made it significantly lower. If they keep that, I'd rather roll Imperial or Altmer for my DK.

Tamanous

Digiman wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

OMG you people against this are so sad. Whenever you drink a potion you get 6% of max health, magicka, stamina. That includes any potion, no matter what level, be it 1 or VR 14. That's a golden ticket especially in a 1vs1, and it could be any potion no matter the effect, Immovable, armor, spell power, crit weapon crit you no longer bound by having to stick with regenerative type potions.

Even then the amounts you get if you picked one would be phenomenal. OMG this is so pathetically insulting. Weak race, what a joke.

Secondly You realize all racials are getting a tune up with the removal of soft cap? Besides thirsty was like a jewelry enchant that stacked, it was pigeon holding you into one thing. Now you get a racial that really shakes things up for combat.

I was tettering between a NB khajitt or Argonian, with this racials its argonian now.

Not sure if you're trolling or not, but I'll respond anyways.

The current live passive is far more versatile as it makes all potion types of effects (heals/stat replenish, regens, damage, crit, invisibility, run speed) stronger -- and when combined with the NB passive Catalyst, it was even better. I'm not wholly opposed to the new 1.6 passive, but given (1) how the global potion cooldown has been increased to 45 seconds, (2) removal of softcaps and imbalance between races due to high %stat bonuses, and (3) 6% of your stats is less than most skills costs, and much less than damage you receive from incoming attacks (not to mention barely more than a tick or 2 of regen), the new Argonian passive is simply a downgrade. Check out my recent thread for a more comprehensive explanation of how potions have changed, and how this affects gamplay and class/race balance.

They had to change potion effectiveness passives because potion effects were integrated into the new Major/Minor buff system. We all understand that. But what they replaced them with are very underwhelming compared to what we already have.

Well there you have it, You answered your own question and the others out there. Because clearly you said with the changes of stats then the new passive is a mere drop in the bucket. Just like all the other racials out there.

With the new buff/debuff system I would say it was warranted. Eitherway it seems you have gotten out this with more from my perspective then most other races will with the change, and with the 45 second global effecting EVERYONE it seems more likely you will get more from your 45 second potion CD then others will.

bellanca6561n wrote: »

I understand, I do. Everyone feels cheated by change that diminishes their character.

However, if you're choosing a race solely due to some game granted combat power it gives you then I wonder if you're missing out no matter what that power is.

Agreed, if you base something on a flimsy ability like 30% potion effectiveness and mechanic with a CD instead of why you picked your character then you get everything coming to you when its changed.

You deserve what's coming to you, eitherway if they change altmer it wouldn't matter to me because I picked the race for the race itself not its racials.

You cannot simply dismiss racial passives as influence on class design. ZOS specifically sent out emails during beta testing asking if players liked the racial stats and liked them for min/maxing ... IT WAS PART OF THEIR GAME DESIGN!

Now place your bias aside and consider this: If Imperials or Altmer +10-12% stat buffs were suddenly taken away (without ANY warning just like these recent changes) what do you think would happen to the forums and this game? Yup ... the game would effectively crater and the forums would need to be locked down.

You do nobody, including yourself, any favors by pretending the issue does not bother many players. Your opinion does not matter because you cannot speak for others. The game OFFICIALLY supports min/maxing. It was a design choice and communicated to the players long before launch. Stats DO matter and stealth nerfing racial passives on toons with dozens of hours of play time on them is serious damn business to many people.

We were NOT told about it. It was STEALTH nerfed in order to fix a totally different issue and no equivalent was given. There IS an issue here and if it isn't one to you do not bother to diminish the opinions of others who you do not speak for. Speak only for yourself.

Pmarsico9

Argonians are fine.
/goes back to Dunmer Vamp DK clone #894756289105928

Tamanous

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Argonians are fine.
/goes back to Dunmer Vamp DK clone #894756289105928

LoL. Ya I guess the smallest percentage of players in the game (Argonian players) simply don't have a loud enough voice. If even one passive is nerfed for the ultimate DK vamp min/max race there would be an uprising of epic proportions.

I guess ZOS just thought not enough Argonian players would raise a stink loud enough to bother with.

Sylvyr

bellanca6561n wrote: »

I understand, I do. Everyone feels cheated by change that diminishes their character.

However, if you're choosing a race solely due to some game granted combat power it gives you then I wonder if you're missing out no matter what that power is.

Sure, if you only look at one character and one race and it's nerfed... yeah, can see that.

But a lot of people run many toons with different races and some differences between them are very obviously material.

Argonian passives are relatively weak.

The new (and undocumented) potion passive is very weak, and as someone pointed out, only benefits you IF you drink potions constantly as opposed to a passive that gives you like 5% whatever all the time.

It also gives you "benefits" of health, magicka, and stam, one time on drink. What if you drink a detection potion and all 3 stats are at max? What benefits do you get then? NONE. ZERO. ZILCH. 2 stats at max on drink? You get 33% of the benefit... 1 stat maxed? 66%.

Also even if stats aren't maxed and you receive some restoration, there are lots of situations you don't even want them or care. For example, get into a fight, get hurt but know i'm not going to win, pop invis potion to get away. I don't really need or want magicka or health, I'll get away and regen, thanks for the restore but don't really need it.

Not only is the benefit miniscule as someone pointed out, but this bonus is so situational it doesn't really count most of the time and is just wasted.

Sylvyr

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

When I bought this game in April, I rolled an Argonian templar as my main. The racial passives at the time were lackluster, but I still wanted to play as an Argonian. They are, after all, the Master Race. I am not what you would call a min-maxer; I am very happy with my character and I don't mind wearing v13 gear because I can't afford the v14 versions. Now however, I am starting to regret my decision, not because I no longer feel attachment to my reptilian toon, but instead because I am feeling unreasonably disadvantaged compared to other races.

My new passive gives me a 6% return on my primary attributes upon drinking a potion. Let's think about what that 6% means. Let's propose a character with 2.6k health 2.3k magicka, and 1.7k stamina, using live numbers for easy comparison. These stats are probably along the lines of what most magicka builds have, assuming they ate blue food (Fortified Sweetrolls).

6% of 2.6k = 156 health
6% of 2.3k = 138 magicka
6% of 1.7k = 102 stamina

As a magicka build, my magicka regen already around 138. For the other stats, this is around double a single regen tick. Our most unique racial stat gives us the equivalent of a +3 (health) regen only if we use potions every 45s. For the other attributes, even less. In sum, the return on our attributes:
1. Provides too small of a burst to be of immediate use.
2. Equals a stat increase that would be close to unnoticeable.
3. Requires us to chug potions every 45s, regardless of our build.

Moreover, the return is useless when at full health/magicka. Compare this with the damage bonuses that High and Dark Elves receive, or the crit bonuses of Khajiits.

This is brilliant.

i don't know how we can get this in terms of xPS to also illustrate... hmmm

156 health / 45s equivalent to 3.47 HPS (LOL!)

138 magicka (harder to translate so ballparking it) is roughly 1/2 to 1/3 of a spell which around v14 might be mmm around what 600 damage or so? so 1/2 of 600 (on the generous side) is 300 / 45s is about 6.67 DPS (stand BACK!!!)

stamina can be thought of about the same as magicka... if you use both for damage you can add them together for about a whopping 13 DPS boost.

I'll leave it to someone else to compare it to % crit passives or max stat passives or to clean up what I did, but even ballpark, it's just kinda laughable. And as pointed out only applicable when you drink and not persistent like other passives.

Digiman

Tamanous wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

OMG you people against this are so sad. Whenever you drink a potion you get 6% of max health, magicka, stamina. That includes any potion, no matter what level, be it 1 or VR 14. That's a golden ticket especially in a 1vs1, and it could be any potion no matter the effect, Immovable, armor, spell power, crit weapon crit you no longer bound by having to stick with regenerative type potions.

Even then the amounts you get if you picked one would be phenomenal. OMG this is so pathetically insulting. Weak race, what a joke.

Secondly You realize all racials are getting a tune up with the removal of soft cap? Besides thirsty was like a jewelry enchant that stacked, it was pigeon holding you into one thing. Now you get a racial that really shakes things up for combat.

I was tettering between a NB khajitt or Argonian, with this racials its argonian now.

Not sure if you're trolling or not, but I'll respond anyways.

The current live passive is far more versatile as it makes all potion types of effects (heals/stat replenish, regens, damage, crit, invisibility, run speed) stronger -- and when combined with the NB passive Catalyst, it was even better. I'm not wholly opposed to the new 1.6 passive, but given (1) how the global potion cooldown has been increased to 45 seconds, (2) removal of softcaps and imbalance between races due to high %stat bonuses, and (3) 6% of your stats is less than most skills costs, and much less than damage you receive from incoming attacks (not to mention barely more than a tick or 2 of regen), the new Argonian passive is simply a downgrade. Check out my recent thread for a more comprehensive explanation of how potions have changed, and how this affects gamplay and class/race balance.

They had to change potion effectiveness passives because potion effects were integrated into the new Major/Minor buff system. We all understand that. But what they replaced them with are very underwhelming compared to what we already have.

Well there you have it, You answered your own question and the others out there. Because clearly you said with the changes of stats then the new passive is a mere drop in the bucket. Just like all the other racials out there.

With the new buff/debuff system I would say it was warranted. Eitherway it seems you have gotten out this with more from my perspective then most other races will with the change, and with the 45 second global effecting EVERYONE it seems more likely you will get more from your 45 second potion CD then others will.

bellanca6561n wrote: »

I understand, I do. Everyone feels cheated by change that diminishes their character.

However, if you're choosing a race solely due to some game granted combat power it gives you then I wonder if you're missing out no matter what that power is.

Agreed, if you base something on a flimsy ability like 30% potion effectiveness and mechanic with a CD instead of why you picked your character then you get everything coming to you when its changed.

You deserve what's coming to you, eitherway if they change altmer it wouldn't matter to me because I picked the race for the race itself not its racials.

You cannot simply dismiss racial passives as influence on class design. ZOS specifically sent out emails during beta testing asking if players liked the racial stats and liked them for min/maxing ... IT WAS PART OF THEIR GAME DESIGN!

Now place your bias aside and consider this: If Imperials or Altmer +10-12% stat buffs were suddenly taken away (without ANY warning just like these recent changes) what do you think would happen to the forums and this game? Yup ... the game would effectively crater and the forums would need to be locked down.

You do nobody, including yourself, any favors by pretending the issue does not bother many players. Your opinion does not matter because you cannot speak for others. The game OFFICIALLY supports min/maxing. It was a design choice and communicated to the players long before launch. Stats DO matter and stealth nerfing racial passives on toons with dozens of hours of play time on them is serious damn business to many people.

We were NOT told about it. It was STEALTH nerfed in order to fix a totally different issue and no equivalent was given. There IS an issue here and if it isn't one to you do not bother to diminish the opinions of others who you do not speak for. Speak only for yourself.

Were you there when they did the silent removal of 6-month Subscription? Were you out there crying for answers or were you just content to remain silent till they hit something that meant something for you?

Quite frankly it surprised me as even in Beta ZoS they left a plethora of problems slip by and now you mention they were focused on racials instead just infuriates me more.

I have stated with the soft caps removal even Altmer are going to take hit with their racials, yet all you can complain about is a 30% effectiveness to potion mechanics that obviously was changed with CD and forced the racials related to be addressed as well. Like ZoS has done nothing but pushed stealth nerf after stealth nerf, not just only for a racial your only concerned about but other problems as well.

Like I said you actually got away pretty clean when you can take a potion that literally gives you 6% max HEALTH, MAGICKA, STAMINA with one button plus the potions initial effect, now wander other people hate this thread. Full of whining brats who decided to make a long term choice based on a single mechanic thats less then a year old in shaky launch and now want a free get out jail card because of a change in a mechanic design.

Welcome to MMO's were you are stuck with what you wrought, maybe ZoS will provide a race change, but it won't be free and it will probably cost crowns. Eitherway I doubt you will complain much after this goes live. Either because you will find better benefits to the 30% change or will spend those skill points into something else.

Varicite

Digiman wrote: »

Were you there when they did the silent removal of 6-month Subscription? Were you out there crying for answers or were you just content to remain silent till they hit something that meant something for you?

Quite frankly it surprised me as even in Beta ZoS they left a plethora of problems slip by and now you mention they were focused on racials instead just infuriates me more.

I have stated with the soft caps removal even Altmer are going to take hit with their racials, yet all you can complain about is a 30% effectiveness to potion mechanics that obviously was changed with CD and forced the racials related to be addressed as well. Like ZoS has done nothing but pushed stealth nerf after stealth nerf, not just only for a racial your only concerned about but other problems as well.

Like I said you actually got away pretty clean when you can take a potion that literally gives you 6% max HEALTH, MAGICKA, STAMINA with one button plus the potions initial effect, now wander other people hate this thread. Full of whining brats who decided to make a long term choice based on a single mechanic thats less then a year old in shaky launch and now want a free get out jail card because of a change in a mechanic design.

Welcome to MMO's were you are stuck with what you wrought, maybe ZoS will provide a race change, but it won't be free and it will probably cost crowns. Eitherway I doubt you will complain much after this goes live. Either because you will find better benefits to the 30% change or will spend those skill points into something else.

You seem to be taking issue w/ a number of other problems unrelated to Argonians.

I suggest if you have a problem w/ other mechanics in the game, that you make your own thread or reply to one of the numerous ones about those, instead of polluting mine w/ unrelated nonsense.

I disagree wholeheartedly w/ your assessment that the change is in any way comparable to what we have currently on live, let alone "getting away pretty clean" for the reasons that I stated in the OP and furthermore throughout the thread.

You may believe that I only care about Argonian racials, but you are mistaken. However, there are a ton of threads dedicated to other issues which I frequent and voice my opinions in.

This particular issue didn't have much attention, and as Argonians are already the smallest minority of players in-game, I felt that these changes and the fact that many of us are very unhappy w/ them warranted a thread of its own.

I do ask that you try to remain on-topic, though. : )

ginoboehm

Wouldn' t the changed one be a stupid idea on the serpent and being blue you could easily kill yourself with it.

Wreuntzylla

I am experiencing more ill will over this change than any other change since release.

At release, the softcaps were low enough that racial picks were, well, racial picks, with a small differential. I could live with picking a racial model I liked in exchange for a relatively minor decrease in competitive power (i.e., PvP).

When they raised the softcaps, some races stepped forward, and some took a step back, because stat % became much more important. Not just for ease of softcapping, but for maximizing the competitiveness of particular builds. But at least the potion passive was useful for non-casuals.

Now this. I'm just baffled at this change. The small differential is now a competitive disparity.

C0pp3rhead

@Digiman‌
In response to your posts in this thread. On the forums, I generally find you to be quite agreeable, and your input is usually constructive. Not sure why you're hating on this post.

Were you there when they did the silent removal of 6-month Subscription? Were you out there crying for answers or were you just content to remain silent till they hit something that meant something for you?

Quite frankly it surprised me as even in Beta ZoS they left a plethora of problems slip by and now you mention they were focused on racials instead just infuriates me more.
...
Like ZoS has done nothing but pushed stealth nerf after stealth nerf...

Nobody in this thread is trying to trivialize the other problems that ZOS has either let slip, ignored, or changed without notice or explanation. This is just another addendum on their long list of sins. This is why we are crying out.

I have stated with the soft caps removal even Altmer are going to take hit with their racials

I disagree that the removal of softcaps will make racial passives that boost stamina or magicka any less desirable. Ability damage/heals/power scales off the attribute that it is associated with. The higher the mag/stam, the higher the damage. Everything else equal, an Altmer will do more magicka-based damage and an Imperial will do more stamina-based damage than an Argonian. More mag/stam is always desirable. However, This difference in damage is not why we're providing feedback/complaining/QQ'ing

you can take a potion that literally gives you 6% max HEALTH, MAGICKA, STAMINA with one button plus the potions initial effect

In a previous post in this thread, I pointed out just how trivial that 6% is. For many builds, this 6% is roughly the same as a single regen tick of their primary attribute. In other words, a tank's health regen, a mage's magicka regen, and a stamina-build's stamina regen would generate the same amount of health/mag/stam every two seconds. We have to chug a potion every 45s to get the full benefit. At full health, magicka, or stamina, we gain no benefit from this passive. Compared to other passives which are useful, always active, and provide secondary benefits, this passive is pathetic.

Full of [people] who decided to make a long term choice based on a single mechanic thats less then a year old in shaky launch and now want a free get out jail card because of a change in a mechanic design.

Actually, many (including myself) didn't make this choice based on the potion effect passive. Some wanted to poison resistance because they were planning on becoming a werewolf. Some wanted the boost to healing received for tanking. Others chose the race for aesthetic reasons.

Regardless of the reason, the fact remains that compared to other classes, our racial passives were inferior even before this stealth change.

1. That healing bonus is pretty paltry. Even on a BoL crit heal, you're looking at around 1k - 1.1k healing, resulting in a whopping 60 - 66 additional health. That's not going to save anyone in a fight.
2.The Dunmer's fire resist and Nord's ice resist are both higher than our disease & poison resistances. Mind you that very few enemies/players use disease damage (it's basically void in PvP).
3. Our only attribute increase is 3%, compared to the 10% that other races get. Even the races that don't get a full 10% attribute increase receive a bonus to that same attribute's regeneration.
Let's do some math:

• If we were to convert that +6% every 45s to regen, it comes to (if this were live, and using a stamina build) +3.7 health regen, +3.0 stam regen, and +2.2 magicka regen.
• Even the worst racial regen (Bosmer) gives a +10% stamina regen in combat, which on a stamina build would come to +13 stamina regen.
  
• Let's compare: 3.7 + 3.0 + 2.2 = +8.9 distributed regen (rough equivalent) vs. appx 130 stam regen x 10% = +13 stam regen
• +13 stam regen > +8.9 distributed regen (if drinking potions every 45s)

That drinking potions every 45s becomes important for players like myself who have to use potions situationally. As a healer, I keep a constant flow of heals coming, and my normal regeneration can maintain that level of healing. However, I reserve my potions for when my group leader calls for BIG HEALS, then I pop a potion so I can spam heals like nobody's business. As far as live is concerned, that +6% magicka I get wouldn't even cover 1/2 of the cost of Breath of Life, which I can already spam continuously through regular DSA's final boss's fire damage phase with some magicka leftover.

@Digiman‌, I don't know if you play an Argonian or not. If you don't, I totally understand. I made my Argonian toon at a time when I knew very little about the game. Although my racial passives are weak, I am skilled enough as a player to make up for this. What we are talking about here is not that ZOS replaced our racial passive. What galls us is that ZOS took the race with arguably the worst racial passives, and replaced one of our strongest racial passives with one that is dependent on item use, situational at best, and provides a boost weaker than the weakest racial regen bonus. Certainly, there are players who chose Argonian for the potion boost passive. For them, ZOS scrapped the defining aspect of their build without warning, without explanation, and without anyone complaining that it was broken. We understand that potion buffs had to be standardized and fixed due to the new buff system. However, we were not compensated with a comparably strong racial passive. Instead, we were made *ahem* special.

Edit: typo

cwp303b14_ESO

If they are really adamant about it staying a potion related racial then why not just have it boost all stats by a certain percentage.

Example: on potion use gain 4% max stamina, magicka, and health for 15 seconds (or some other value and amount of time. Don't be crazy literal with what I used as an example)

It would retain the feel of the previous racial and could be balanced to be in line with the stronger stat based racials of some other races.

Remember that 4% of each primary stat and the 3% max health already in place is only 15% boost which is still less than imperials 22% and on par with dunmer 15% and it's not even full time.

This would still increase dps and survival, albeit by a somewhat marginal amount (so nobody should complain), but I think most argonians would agree it's at least something better than what they were given.

Actually, this seems so simple I wonder why they didn't just do that to begin with?

Edit: Oh and full disclosure, my main and only other vet character are both imperial but I think all players should be respected when it comes to balance.

phtony06b14_ESO

Aquanova wrote: »

Take away racial bonuses all together and let us choose the perk or stat bonuses we want on our characters. Stat bonuses and perks should never have been assigned to races from the start. Race choice should be purely cosmetic and not give a tactical advantage to one or the other, regardless of the lore.

Wouldn't really be that hard to do with the Champion system. Simply implement current racials into the champion system (b/c who doesn't like to grind CP pts, lol), and wallah.

MorHawk

Quite comforting that I'm not the only one peeved by racials as they stand. Hopefully ZOS will take notice and make some changes, but unfortunately it's not gonna happen beofre TU releases, and that's gonna kick up one heck of a stink.

Jar_Ek

I suggest that the Argonian passives be changed along the lines of:

Amphibious: 50% swim speed (fluff). 15% health regeneration and 12.5% stamina regeneration. No potion bonuses.
Argonian Resistance: Double the resistance and provide 6% max health (or 3% health and 3% stamina).
Although I would like to suggest Quick to Mend be changed to Skilled Mender: 6% healing provided - it would not work with the other changes (which are health/stamina not magicka based), so increase 6% healing received to 10%.

Why?
Amphibious now links better to lore with Hist skin and is approximately 1/2 the level of other regeneration passives that are one stat only.
Resistance is increased to be more effective and we get a better maximum stat passive (s) to offset the relative uselessness of the resistance.
Although Quick Mender fits better with lore, it doesn't fit with the theme and so the healing received should be buffed to offset the relative increase of uncapped max stat passives.

joshisanonymous

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

OMG you people against this are so sad. Whenever you drink a potion you get 6% of max health, magicka, stamina. That includes any potion, no matter what level, be it 1 or VR 14. That's a golden ticket especially in a 1vs1, and it could be any potion no matter the effect, Immovable, armor, spell power, crit weapon crit you no longer bound by having to stick with regenerative type potions.

Even then the amounts you get if you picked one would be phenomenal. OMG this is so pathetically insulting. Weak race, what a joke.

Secondly You realize all racials are getting a tune up with the removal of soft cap? Besides thirsty was like a jewelry enchant that stacked, it was pigeon holding you into one thing. Now you get a racial that really shakes things up for combat.

I was tettering between a NB khajitt or Argonian, with this racials its argonian now.

Not sure if you're trolling or not, but I'll respond anyways.

The current live passive is far more versatile as it makes all potion types of effects (heals/stat replenish, regens, damage, crit, invisibility, run speed) stronger -- and when combined with the NB passive Catalyst, it was even better. I'm not wholly opposed to the new 1.6 passive, but given (1) how the global potion cooldown has been increased to 45 seconds, (2) removal of softcaps and imbalance between races due to high %stat bonuses, and (3) 6% of your stats is less than most skills costs, and much less than damage you receive from incoming attacks (not to mention barely more than a tick or 2 of regen), the new Argonian passive is simply a downgrade. Check out my recent thread for a more comprehensive explanation of how potions have changed, and how this affects gamplay and class/race balance.

They had to change potion effectiveness passives because potion effects were integrated into the new Major/Minor buff system. We all understand that. But what they replaced them with are very underwhelming compared to what we already have.

This is probably the most reasonable feedback I've read in this thread. I'm of the same mindset as ThatNeanZebraAgain, in that this feels more like a vertical shift than an actual nerf. It allows you to get an extra bonus from potions that increases your sustain but disconnects the passive from current potion changes which might lead to stacking things like weapon crit to extremely high, unintended levels. However, if 6% is essentially unnoticeable, it seems quite reasonable to me to push for an increase in this percentage. That would be a change that's much more likely to go through for numerous reasons.

C0pp3rhead

joshisanonymous wrote: »

However, if 6% is essentially unnoticeable, it seems quite reasonable to me to push for an increase in this percentage. That would be a change that's much more likely to go through for numerous reasons.

Whether the 6% should be increased is besides the point. Having a racial tied to potion use, i.e. with a 45s cooldown, is close to useless. (Compare to Imperial Red Diamond, 10% chance of restoring 6% of stamina on melee attack, which has no cooldown.) They need to change it completely, and give argonians a real racial passive.

PlagueMonk

Aeratus wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

If I was to redesign our passives i would get rid of the stupid resto staff exp and do the following:

Guerrilla Warfare Expertise (3 ranks) – Increases stealth speed by (7/14/21)% and increases damage done while stealthed by (3/6/9)%

Amphibian Physiology (3 ranks) – Increases swimming speed by 50% and armor rating by (3/6/9)%

Argonian Resistance (3 ranks) – Increases maximum Health by (3/6/9)% and Poison/Disease resistance by (10/20/30). Disease resistance should apply directly to disease abilities, lessening their effect by a flat amount (including meatbag cats)

Quick to Mend (3 ranks) – Increases healing received by (4/8/12)% and health regen (7/14/21)%.

AND if/when underwater zones come, we should get the ability to breathe underwater dammit!


Note that most of the abilities I changed out are directly from other races.

Wow this is twice as OP as the current dunmer/imperial.

You are correct. When I wrote that I was creating an unrealistic list (but what the race deserves)

I have since retooled my list to be something more in line with the other races (the resto staff training skill was simply not included here)

Guerrilla Warfare Expertise (3 ranks) – Increases movement speed while stealthed by (7/14/21)% and increases non magicka based attacks while stealthed by (3/6/9)%

Amphibian Physiology (3 ranks) – Increases swimming speed by 50% and health regen (7/14/21)%

Argonian Hardiness (3 ranks) – Increases maximum Health by (3/6/9)% and Increases Poison/Disease resistance by 1440. Disease resistance should apply directly to disease abilities, lessening their effect by a flat amount (including meatbag catapults)

I got rid of the healing received since it is such a trivial amount compared with other racials in lieu of health regen (which make more sense imho.)

Turelus

Just ignore the passives, they're not that great on all of the races. There is an argument that Bosmer are super strong but not if you want to play stamina builds.

Choose the race because you like the look, lore, style of that race then accept the passives as a fun bonus. If you want to have passives to min/max for FOTM builds then roll new characters.

The same arguments could be made about classes as well, I made a NB but it doesn't do what a DK does, instead of me leveling a new character please let me change it to the currently best class. Skills and abilities will change constantly over time, that's what happens in an MMO.

If you want Argonians to have better passives why not constructively make a post with a breakdown of what they do, what others do and where you feel the divide in power of characters is happening. Support it with some information from PTS about damage, defence, stat numbers and post it for ZOS to over look and see where the issues are.

Xsorus

Argonians do new a massive retool, Since Argonian Nightblade was fairly common and it was all but removed in this patch.

PlagueMonk

Turelus wrote: »

Just ignore the passives, they're not that great on all of the races. There is an argument that Bosmer are super strong but not if you want to play stamina builds.

Choose the race because you like the look, lore, style of that race then accept the passives as a fun bonus. If you want to have passives to min/max for FOTM builds then roll new characters.

The same arguments could be made about classes as well, I made a NB but it doesn't do what a DK does, instead of me leveling a new character please let me change it to the currently best class. Skills and abilities will change constantly over time, that's what happens in an MMO.

If you want Argonians to have better passives why not constructively make a post with a breakdown of what they do, what others do and where you feel the divide in power of characters is happening. Support it with some information from PTS about damage, defence, stat numbers and post it for ZOS to over look and see where the issues are.

Well this has already been done in other threads (see http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/152091/racial-disparity-with-full-list/p1)

It's pretty simple math however to see +10% to magicka and realize that it's leaps and bounds better than +6% to healing received, +50% swimming or +3% health and disease resist.

And while I would not want to trade my race, it would be NICE to not feel handicapped every time I walk out the freakin door.

Jar_Ek

Let me just ask a quick question to everyone... who doesn't or will not in 1.6.3 put points into a racial passive and why?

I probably won't waste the on the 1.6.3 Argonian potion passive (i am an alchemist)and have never bothered with the resist passive. Because the new potion passive is simply too expensive for the return in terms of SP and the 90 health bonus on my 3k health plus a rarely used resist is also not worth the points. Which means I will only be taking the Quick to Mend passive.

Surely everyone should look at their racial passives and say I have to get those, they are great. Not, I don't think I'll bother, I'll level another weapon. I know on my imperial, I have taken all the facials as soon as I could. On my Argonian, only when I couldn't see anything else I wanted and even then only one passive! Not exactly a ringing endorsement for the Argonian passives.

MorHawk

PlagueMonk wrote: »

And while I would not want to trade my race, it would be NICE to not feel handicapped every time I walk out the freakin door.

This. Right here. This guy gets it.

Varicite

Turelus wrote: »

Just ignore the passives, they're not that great on all of the races.

But this is inherently false and becomes FAR more false in 1.6.3.

That is why this thread exists, because racial passives DO matter quite a bit in the framework of 1.6.

Turelus wrote: »

If you want to have passives to min/max for FOTM builds then roll new characters.

Many of us have invested over a year into our characters. Will I roll a new one? No, but I have multiple NBs, and my favorite of all (my Argonian main) will simply be gathering dust from now on unless I need her to make potions or something, and that makes me very sad.

Turelus wrote: »

The same arguments could be made about classes as well, I made a NB but it doesn't do what a DK does, instead of me leveling a new character please let me change it to the currently best class.

There is no class that you can choose that will just have 22% more stats than other classes, but this choice exists for races.

This has nothing to do w/ trying to choose the "current best class". It's about having made a permanent choice based on information that is no longer valid a year later. If my class has changed, I can play another build of that class. I cannot do this w/ my race. There is no "other build" for Argonians, there are only 3 racial passives, 1 of which was okay and now is.. not.

I would have no real issue if the racial passive that they had replaced it w/ was even remotely comparable to what we have on live, which would STILL be quite a bit behind the "master races" like Imperial, Dunmer, Breton, Altmer, etc.

Turelus wrote: »

Skills and abilities will change constantly over time, that's what happens in an MMO.

This is exactly right. And each and every time those skills and abilities have changed in ESO, the skill points were refunded because ZOS realized that if players knew what the replacement skill was beforehand, they very likely would not have chosen it.

This is the exact same case. Had many of us known that potion passives were going to be removed entirely from the game a year later, then we likely would have not chosen the only race that provided a boost to potions.

Now we are locked into a terrible choice that was made FOR us, not BY us, and there is no way to rectify the situation currently outside of spending the next YEAR grinding a character back to where we are today. Not happening for many of us.

Turelus wrote: »

If you want Argonians to have better passives why not constructively make a post with a breakdown of what they do, what others do and where you feel the divide in power of characters is happening. Support it with some information from PTS about damage, defence, stat numbers and post it for ZOS to over look and see where the issues are.

This has already been posted both in this thread and in others. The aim of my thread is to call attention to the fact that many Argonians are not satisfied w/ the current state of Argonian racial passives on PTS.

I am fully understanding of the need to change the passive due to the way the game has changed in 1.6, but the replacement passive simply is not good enough as compensation and leaves our race (which was already considered tied for the weakest of all the races) FAR below the mark now.

Devs have been silent about the Argonian change thus far, as well as the removal of potion speed glyphs, haste effects, etc. It would be really nice to know if they even acknowledge that we are upset w/ the new passive, or if they feel that it's good enough, or even that they plan to take another look at it in the future.

SOMETHING.

eliisra

I find it very problematic how race will have more impact on role- and build effectiveness than actual class in the future. Not the case on live of course, due to soft caps. But on PTS it's very clear and disturbing. Race should in my opinion only add deeper lore, fluff, cosmetics and minor perks/advantages. Not alter ones entire play-style.

You cant have a game without stat pool limitations or penalties, where jamming everything into one attribute is the way to go, while hybrids are gimped, than have attribute bonuses differ as much as 3% v.s. 22%. It's madness...unless you're one of those guys that doesn't about balance, because you treat and appreciate ESO as some sort of non-competitive single player game.

Fix racials dammit. Buff lizards. If that's to complicated for ZoS, there's a quicker solution. Just decrease all racial attribute bonuses with 50-75%, if the decision on removing soft caps stays.