About Shield Stacking

Morvul · February 2015

XEVENEX wrote: »

Chewing through 10k health is much harder than chewing through 10k shields.

while this was true in 1.5, and probably is still holds true for med/heavy armor users in 1.6 - it is most definetly NOT true for light armor users in 1.6.

since the health pool can be critted and is subject to various proc-effects, while shields can not - and at the same time light armor offers something in the range of 5% damage mitigation...
in 1.6 shield-HP are actually MORE valuable then health HP, for light armor users, in PvP (they are roughly equal in value for PvE).

That said - if sorcerer were to loose their ability to "insanely stack shields", I'm not exactly sure what they are supposed to do to survive instead? (and the shields are only "insane" in 1v1... once 3 people start hitting those shields, they melt very, VERY fast - and since shield stackers have no HP pool, an external healer can't save them...)
(magicka nightblades kinda are in that situation already, but at least they have the options of HoTs (*lol*) or going stamina/medium armor)

Gorthax · February 2015

technohic wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

People are worried about shields but neglect to discuss the "the lady" passive that grants 80% stamina cost reduction for 8 seconds after breaking out of any cc...... that stacked with already stamina cost reduction means using any form of cc against a stamina character will result in your death.

let that sink in for a second....

EDIT: medium armor characters will have 100% stamina cost reduction.....yea.....absorb that info for a sec

isn't that like 120 points into just that constellation alone?

Yes it is, but you KNOW people will find a way to get there fast. A way that Zeni never thought of. It is going to happen. Only a handful will get there this way. Once they do, pvp will never be the same.

Stamina users GREATLY benefit the most from the CS passives. Magicka has NOTHING like the stamina one. Oh ok so 20% of our health in damage from a magicka attack we get 2270 magicka back....so a spell and a half?

"Oh you cc'ed me? *breaks out* RAWR!!!!!!!! *spam spam spams spam spam spam spam spam spam* "

- Guy being attacked - " OH crap!!!!!! I need to keep him away *hits him with another cc* CRAP! DIDNT WORK!"

It WILL happen lol I like where ZoS went with it, but to NOT give magicka people the same treatment is kind of hilarious. They literally can never be right down the middle or slightly off. It is either 100% in favor of one thing or screw them both lol

XEVENEX · February 2015

Agreed but 360-70=290 points to get there. At 2 points a day thats less than 5 months. God help us all after that.

Varicite · February 2015

XEVENEX wrote: »

Agreed but 360-70=290 points to get there. At 2 points a day thats less than 5 months. God help us all after that.

Don't worry, as soon as people begin to unlock it and actually use it, ZOS will just take the toy away and give them a nice celery stick instead.

Gorthax · February 2015

Snit wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

People are worried about shields but neglect to discuss the "the lady" passive...

Good point.

A lot of the shields kerfuffle is due to people viewing magicka-sorcs as targets, not as characters. People expect 'wizards' to be squishy, and it's disappointing when you close on one and they don't explode into gibs.

The view is somewhat different from inside the bathrobe

Well when a character knows they are squishy, and use magicka, they need to have a way to NOT be squishy at the cost of their resources. Bows take shields down insanely fast, 2h swords take them down quick. The sorcs have ZERO time to attack if the attacker is being aggressive. Sorry but spamming your shields to stay alive (unless -->EMPEROR<-- ) is a gamble. A huge gamble. You will run out if you are not emp. It just takes people a lot longer now in 1.6

If you see a sorc popping shields, the best thing to do is NOT use magicka against him. Thats like throwing gasoline on a fire then complaining to the fire department, once they show up to put it out, that you cant figure out why the fire got out of control in the first place.

I remember back in 1.5 (hehehe) when everyone was using (i know they still are in live) sword and shields and the only way to get around it was to use one yourself because people would always throw out L2P when you complained about permablock and permablockcasting.

Now sorcs have a way to stay alive without using sword and shield AND at the cost of sacrificing offensive attacks to do so, and people want it gone? Hard to attack when you are on defense trying to keep shields up.

Advice:

1 - if you cant break through their shields in one hit, stay aggressive. we WILL lose the shields.

2 - if after that you still cant break through their shields, than get better gear to help increase your damage.

3 - If you stay aggressive on a shield stacker they will run out of magicka. Plain and simple. You just have to play smart and dont let up. It really isnt that hard to do.

4 - Anyone who goes full on magicka is susceptible to....wait for it.......CC! It is always a nice idea to have ONE cc move on your bar. Stay aggressive, keep CC'ing. Their stamina will run out soooo much faster than their magicka. No stamina means no breaking out of CC. Cant cast shields when you are under a control effect. There is your window. Reapply that once CC wears off and guess what? A dead sorc is a dead sorc lol (or any class using shield stack)

Edit: Harness Magicka only absorbs magicka. So dont count that into the reason why you cant break through shields (not talking to the person I quoted, but people who cant seem to get through shields in general).

McDoogs · February 2015

Morvul wrote: »

XEVENEX wrote: »

Chewing through 10k health is much harder than chewing through 10k shields.

while this was true in 1.5, and probably is still holds true for med/heavy armor users in 1.6 - it is most definetly NOT true for light armor users in 1.6.

since the health pool can be critted and is subject to various proc-effects, while shields can not - and at the same time light armor offers something in the range of 5% damage mitigation...
in 1.6 shield-HP are actually MORE valuable then health HP, for light armor users, in PvP (they are roughly equal in value for PvE).

That said - if sorcerer were to loose their ability to "insanely stack shields", I'm not exactly sure what they are supposed to do to survive instead? (and the shields are only "insane" in 1v1... once 3 people start hitting those shields, they melt very, VERY fast - and since shield stackers have no HP pool, an external healer can't save them...)
(magicka nightblades kinda are in that situation already, but at least they have the options of HoTs (*lol*) or going stamina/medium armor)

I dunno, they could invest in hp, or wear some pieces of HA, or otherwise diversify their build beyond stacking magicka and crit to the moon...

Besides no one is really suggesting wholesale nerfs to shields, just toning them down a bit, maybe so if you build a glass cannon you don't end up with a tank.

Derra · February 2015

Varicite wrote: »

Make the shields smaller and slightly more costly. Make them unstackable (one shield overwrites the next).

If you are shielding for survival, you should be able to do this still, but not indefinitely.

Problem solved?

Shielding should exist in the game as a defensive mechanism, sure, but they are over the top in their 1.6 state.

You are shielding for survival atm in 1.6. Against a 2h user in melee literally all i can do is cast shields. If i get ccd i have to break instantly and will certainly take health dmg. There is no room for other actions and there is no room for errors in that.
Its going to stay op in 1v1.
It already mediocre at best against multiple enemies.

Gorthax · February 2015

McDoogs wrote: »

Morvul wrote: »

XEVENEX wrote: »

Chewing through 10k health is much harder than chewing through 10k shields.

while this was true in 1.5, and probably is still holds true for med/heavy armor users in 1.6 - it is most definetly NOT true for light armor users in 1.6.

since the health pool can be critted and is subject to various proc-effects, while shields can not - and at the same time light armor offers something in the range of 5% damage mitigation...
in 1.6 shield-HP are actually MORE valuable then health HP, for light armor users, in PvP (they are roughly equal in value for PvE).

That said - if sorcerer were to loose their ability to "insanely stack shields", I'm not exactly sure what they are supposed to do to survive instead? (and the shields are only "insane" in 1v1... once 3 people start hitting those shields, they melt very, VERY fast - and since shield stackers have no HP pool, an external healer can't save them...)
(magicka nightblades kinda are in that situation already, but at least they have the options of HoTs (*lol*) or going stamina/medium armor)

I dunno, they could invest in hp, or wear some pieces of HA, or otherwise diversify their build beyond stacking magicka and crit to the moon...

Besides no one is really suggesting wholesale nerfs to shields, just toning them down a bit, maybe so if you build a glass cannon you don't end up with a tank.

But you are not a tank.....Stamina users can destroy shields in a heart beat and force shield stackers to keep reapplying it. As for magicka users CC is the counter to shield stackers. CC is the counter for any class going against a shield stacker. It really is that simple.

Built glass cannon.....uses shields to make up for his weakness in health, gets destroyed by cc...... something so simple as CC can tear apart a glass cannon. Cant cast shields when you are CC'ed........

If you cant get around shields then I think it is time to reassess your character and the way he is played. There is no one build to rule them all like there was in 1.5 (Permablock cast reflective scales , GDB, talons, lava whip whip whip whip whip ulti ulti ulti ulti repeat anyone?) . At least the shield stack "issue" has a HUGE weakness that people just refuse to take advantage of lol

This is coming from someone who doesnt even shield stack. Though now I am tempted too. I have tried the shield stacking idea, but how fast they got destroyed was not worth it to me. I must not be fighting the crap players lol

McDoogs · February 2015

Immovable still gives CC immunity for 5 seconds last time I checked. A sorc with 30k magicka can do a lot of harm in 5 seconds....

XEVENEX · February 2015

Morvul wrote: »

XEVENEX wrote: »

Chewing through 10k health is much harder than chewing through 10k shields.

while this was true in 1.5, and probably is still holds true for med/heavy armor users in 1.6 - it is most definetly NOT true for light armor users in 1.6.

It is though. Say you have 50% spell crit, thats 25% more dps that you cant get on shields. They still take full damage from everything else. With light armor and champion passives, point for point health is still MUCH stronger than shields. Hell you couldnt crit health in 1.5 either due to impenetrable, so that comparison doesnt work here.

XEVENEX · February 2015

McDoogs wrote: »

Immovable still gives CC immunity for 5 seconds last time I checked. A sorc with 30k magicka can do a lot of harm in 5 seconds....

More like 4 seconds due to animation of immovable. If youre spamming immovable every 5 seconds you are no threat to anyone with half a brain. Your dps will be *** and so will your stamina.

Merlin13KAGL · February 2015

Morvul wrote: »

That said - if sorcerer were to loose their ability to "insanely stack shields", I'm not exactly sure what they are supposed to do to survive instead? (and the shields are only "insane" in 1v1... once 3 people start hitting those shields, they melt very, VERY fast - and since shield stackers have no HP pool, an external healer can't save them...)
(magicka nightblades kinda are in that situation already, but at least they have the options of HoTs (*lol*) or going stamina/medium armor)

@Morvul, that's easy. Then it becomes Elder Knights & Archers Online.

There is exactly one class shield available to Sorcs. Everything else is available to everyone else.

And there is no Spell Resist bonus for LA anymore. Med and Heavy get 1:1 Spell Resist with Armor Class. The LA passive hardly bridges that gap, and LA does virtually nothing for physical damage.

But guessing they take no issue with that, sitting in full leather or full plate while eating fireballs and lightning bolts... The downside for MA/HA vs the upside for LA is minimal, at best.

Septimus_Magna · February 2015

Shield stacking is mainly useful against other magicka users. Hardened ward blocks physical and spell damage but Harness Magicka does not. If you have a stamina build you can hit for 6-8k with two-handed so you burn down the 12k shield in no time. And when the shield is gone the light armor provides no resistance at all so saying sorcs are high damage tanks is not true imo.

Tankqull · February 2015

Morvul wrote: »

XEVENEX wrote: »

Chewing through 10k health is much harder than chewing through 10k shields.

while this was true in 1.5, and probably is still holds true for med/heavy armor users in 1.6 - it is most definetly NOT true for light armor users in 1.6.

since the health pool can be critted and is subject to various proc-effects, while shields can not - and at the same time light armor offers something in the range of 5% damage mitigation...
in 1.6 shield-HP are actually MORE valuable then health HP, for light armor users, in PvP (they are roughly equal in value for PvE).

That said - if sorcerer were to loose their ability to "insanely stack shields", I'm not exactly sure what they are supposed to do to survive instead? (and the shields are only "insane" in 1v1... once 3 people start hitting those shields, they melt very, VERY fast - and since shield stackers have no HP pool, an external healer can't save them...)
(magicka nightblades kinda are in that situation already, but at least they have the options of HoTs (*lol*) or going stamina/medium armor)

dont forget insane dmg, mobility (through shadows), and in combination with kills through insane dmg awesome heals.

AriBoh · February 2015

This is LA/S&D/permablocking vamp DK/NB all over again. A certain combination of skills are running riot over players and people are abusing it to their full ability. Then we have the 'discussions' on the forums where those not using it call it OP and those who are will defend it to the death. All the while ZoS ignores it and pvp become a homogenous mass of 1 or 2 builds while slowly suffocating on its self.

Dracane · February 2015

Your DPS is high against shields !
Because shields don't have armor and spells resistance. That means, you're hitting with full power.

But I agree, shield stacking is a problem and at the same time, the only way for light armor users to survive.

Merlin13KAGL · February 2015

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

A certain combination of skills are running riot over players and people are abusing it to their full ability.

LMAO. It is now abusive that Sorc's refuse to just die.

DDuke · February 2015

Dracane wrote: »

Your DPS is high against shields !
Because shields don't have armor and spells resistance. That means, you're hitting with full power.

But I agree, shield stacking is a problem and at the same time, the only way for light armor users to survive.

Except that you cant crit on the shields, which makes a huge difference now that Impenetrable is changed.

You also can't proc things like Grim Focus, weapon enchantments or ulti regen.

And shields are more cost effective (it takes 2-3 offensive spells/abilities to break one shield), which means you can run your opponent out of stamina/magicka just by spamming shield (no need to even stack them).

Gorthax · February 2015

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

A certain combination of skills are running riot over players and people are abusing it to their full ability.

LMAO. It is now abusive that Sorc's refuse to just die.

It is because for so long non melee sorcs (sword and board ones) were just cake walk and could be walked all over and people loved it! Now that they have to work for it they dont like it.

Thejollygreenone · February 2015

Dracane wrote: »

Your DPS is high against shields !
Because shields don't have armor and spells resistance. That means, you're hitting with full power.

But I agree, shield stacking is a problem and at the same time, the only way for light armor users to survive.

Full power? Meh. Maybe similar to full power, maybe, I'm not willing to do that math.

What I mean, though, is that I would think with the inability to crit or get procs, including ult building, when an enemies shields are up negates the lack of mitigation in shields, at least against crit builds who happen to use procs and like to keep use of their ultimate, like mine ^.^

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

A certain combination of skills are running riot over players and people are abusing it to their full ability.

LMAO. It is now abusive that Sorc's refuse to just die.

Also, nice strawman argument.

AriBoh · February 2015

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

A certain combination of skills are running riot over players and people are abusing it to their full ability.

LMAO. It is now abusive that Sorc's refuse to just die.

You are mitigating DoTs, ult generation, execute procs and various other things while gaining about 20k damage shields and having a huge magicka pool to power an impressive dps.
Just because the system is broken doesn't mean you aren't the one responsible for abusing it.
And here comes the 'discussions' part. Nah I'm out *** this noise.

Dracane · February 2015

They only have to do a few changes to shields.
Crits against shields should never be possible, everything else is a bad solution.

Make Ultimate gain, force syphon and similar effects proc against damage shields and do something against shield stacking. In my opinion, casting 1 damage shield + healing ward is the issue, not castin 1 single shield.

I am Sorcerer myself and I would never stack shields. I only cast conjured ward and it is down soooo fast, I have to recast it over and over again. This is not an issue. I use conjured ward+ harness magicka against other Sorcerers only. You're never going to find healing ward on my bar.

Dracane · February 2015

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Shields shouldn't stack. Just make it so only one shield (the strongest) can be active at a time.

Stacking shields is not the problem. If you remove shield stacking, then people will slot just 1 shield, like hardened ward and spam that repeatedly. With high magicka and high magicka regen, the same problem will remain. Shields should remain stackable. The problem here is that these shields should not be scaling off magicka, which is the same stat sorcs are using to min max their dps. There needs to be tradeoffs.

Hey Sabre my favorite prey

This idea is stupid in my opinion. Templar shields can be scaled of health, but not the Sorcerer shield O.o Templars are meant to be very tanky. (health)
But Sorcs are meant to use magic and making their shield a health scaled shield is just stupid.

Shield stacking IS an issue and this must be solved. I would even dare to say, that they should slightly increase the strenght of single shields (but it's not a must) reducing shield strenght and increasing the costs is a mistake. Believe me: as soon as all thee shield stackers can't stack 1 shield+ healing ward, everything is going to be fine.

cozmon3c_ESO · February 2015

I hate that shields are stackable, always have. I avoided it when it was popular and still did pretty well. But now the only way to survive in 1.6 is to sheild stack as a LA user. I feel this stifles build diversity but so does everyone and there mother hitting like mack trucks. Both would need to be fixed/balanced at the same time if any change were to happen. you will make LA sorc not as competitive or even make it an obsolete choice as a sorc if they are not balanced together.

Aziz006 · February 2015

People are afraid of Unchained or infamous 80% cost reduction already. Yeah better be afraid because your infinite magicka will be nothing but just blue bar of sh*t

Dracane · February 2015

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

I hate that shields are stackable, always have. I avoided it when it was popular and still did pretty well. But now the only way to survive in 1.6 is to sheild stack as a LA user. I feel this stifles build diversity but so does everyone and there mother hitting like mack trucks. Both would need to be fixed/balanced at the same time if any change were to happen. you will make LA sorc not as competitive or even make it an obsolete choice as a sorc if they are not balanced together.

I'm only using 1 shield and I'm doing very well.
Shield stacking is not needed to survive. I win many duels and that with only 1 shield. There is a lot of presure on me. Because that 1 shield is down with 1 good hit and my health drops so quickly.

But it's definately doable

As soon as shield stacking is gone, I can finally kill other Sorcerers with their noobish (yes noobish) tactic.

Varicite · February 2015

Aziz006 wrote: »

People are afraid of Unchained or infamous 80% cost reduction already. Yeah better be afraid I will get that awesome passive really fast

Don't you worry, they'll remove it entirely once you start owning people w/ it.

They'll tell you that it was "unintended" and actually supposed to be "8%".

Then they'll replace it w/ a passive that gives you a 100 hp damage shield when using Break Free.

: )

Gorthax · February 2015

Dracane wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Shields shouldn't stack. Just make it so only one shield (the strongest) can be active at a time.

Stacking shields is not the problem. If you remove shield stacking, then people will slot just 1 shield, like hardened ward and spam that repeatedly. With high magicka and high magicka regen, the same problem will remain. Shields should remain stackable. The problem here is that these shields should not be scaling off magicka, which is the same stat sorcs are using to min max their dps. There needs to be tradeoffs.

Hey Sabre my favorite prey
This idea is stupid in my opinion. Templar shields can be scaled of health, but not the Sorcerer shield O.o Templars are meant to be very tanky. (health)
But Sorcs are meant to use magic and making their shield a health scaled shield is just stupid.

Shield stacking IS an issue and this must be solved. I would even dare to say, that they should slightly increase the strenght of single shields (but it's not a must) reducing shield strenght and increasing the costs is a mistake. Believe me: as soon as all thee shield stackers can't stack 1 shield+ healing ward, everything is going to be fine.

shield stacking isnt an issue. People needed to find ways around the person stacking is the issue. Someone compared it to the op broken permablockcasting la using DK sword and shield combo.....its nothing like that.

Someone who focused only on magicka and reduced spell cost has a HUGE flaw that people seem to just ignore. CC! Freaking use it my god. CC them, watch them break out or dodge roll. They get to do it, twice MAYBE three times. No stamina means they are at the mercy of you dealing damage to them, which means broken shields which means no recasting which means dead sorc since they are glass cannon.

This seriously is a L2P issue...... I can agree that light attacks on the shield SHOULD restore ultimate, DoTs should work but ONLY drain the shield NOT the health since it is a damage shield and a DoT IS damage.

Start trying CC out.......promise you will destroy the sorcs. Unless you suck then you can sit here and cry for nerfs. If you cc them with no stamina and you still cant break through their shields and kill them in the time it takes for your cc to wear off then reassess your gear and dps.

Not trying to flame anyone so please dont take it that way. People hate shield stacking but ignore the fact that it literally has a HUGE downside. I mean come on people lol

DDuke · February 2015

Gorthax wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Shields shouldn't stack. Just make it so only one shield (the strongest) can be active at a time.

Stacking shields is not the problem. If you remove shield stacking, then people will slot just 1 shield, like hardened ward and spam that repeatedly. With high magicka and high magicka regen, the same problem will remain. Shields should remain stackable. The problem here is that these shields should not be scaling off magicka, which is the same stat sorcs are using to min max their dps. There needs to be tradeoffs.

Hey Sabre my favorite prey
This idea is stupid in my opinion. Templar shields can be scaled of health, but not the Sorcerer shield O.o Templars are meant to be very tanky. (health)
But Sorcs are meant to use magic and making their shield a health scaled shield is just stupid.

Shield stacking IS an issue and this must be solved. I would even dare to say, that they should slightly increase the strenght of single shields (but it's not a must) reducing shield strenght and increasing the costs is a mistake. Believe me: as soon as all thee shield stackers can't stack 1 shield+ healing ward, everything is going to be fine.

shield stacking isnt an issue. People needed to find ways around the person stacking is the issue. Someone compared it to the op broken permablockcasting la using DK sword and shield combo.....its nothing like that.

Someone who focused only on magicka and reduced spell cost has a HUGE flaw that people seem to just ignore. CC! Freaking use it my god. CC them, watch them break out or dodge roll. They get to do it, twice MAYBE three times. No stamina means they are at the mercy of you dealing damage to them, which means broken shields which means no recasting which means dead sorc since they are glass cannon.

This seriously is a L2P issue...... I can agree that light attacks on the shield SHOULD restore ultimate, DoTs should work but ONLY drain the shield NOT the health since it is a damage shield and a DoT IS damage.

Start trying CC out.......promise you will destroy the sorcs. Unless you suck then you can sit here and cry for nerfs. If you cc them with no stamina and you still cant break through their shields and kill them in the time it takes for your cc to wear off then reassess your gear and dps.

Not trying to flame anyone so please dont take it that way. People hate shield stacking but ignore the fact that it literally has a HUGE downside. I mean come on people lol

You do that on live, and every single CC will get broken faster than you can burst someone down. It simply doesn't work (especially when your opponent has to waste 0 stamina on blocking etc).

There are no downsides to shield spam as long as it remains stronger & more cost efficient than damaging abilities.

Merlin13KAGL · February 2015

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Also, nice strawman argument.

Wasn't an argument at all, tough guy. It's laughable that it's considered abuse. It's the adjustment the Dev's just made, so I'm pretty sure the initial perspective is that it's as they wish it to be.

If it's not, they'll change it.

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

You are mitigating DoTs, ult generation, execute procs and various other things while gaining about 20k damage shields and having a huge magicka pool to power an impressive dps.
Just because the system is broken doesn't mean you aren't the one responsible for abusing it.
And here comes the 'discussions' part. Nah I'm out *** this noise.

@Thejollygreenone‌ , @darkknightfkb16_ESO‌ Sorc's have one (1) class shield.

That's it.

Shields have always taken full, unmitigated damage, so while you may not be able to crit a shield, you're also not having any of your crits reduced by armor, spell resist, specific resist, blocks, or passives.

Regarding resource pool, Every V14 out there has the same 62 skillpoints and the same number of available gear slots (translating to the same options for enchants.)

I don't complain when someone has 35k hp if that's not where I've opted to place my points.

There have been plenty of blatant issues that have been allowed to slide by. Calling this one abusive is a stretch.

It's not class exclusive, except that one skill, and it's not as if other classes don't have a shield option in their skill lines.

I haven't complained about the 80% dodge chance the NB I was running with on PTS had, but I'm sure that's reasonable, cause he was only using one shield...

Damage should hit the shield. DoTs should hit the shield. The no Ult when blocking affects everyone trying to hit anyone with any shield.

If things are really broken, report them and have them fixed. Don't select the information that only includes part of the overall situation and not expect feedback.

Have yet to see video of unkillable classes anywhere. You don't get to be upset because it's no longer 3 arrows from 40m and done.