Hybrid builds and hybrid sets: something has to change before 1.6 goes live

Helluin

As I wrote on Tamriel Foundry and in another post here, I open this topic not just for NB but for every class since hybrid builds and sets, with how Ultimates and some other skills work, are completely neglected or terribly weaker.
With 1.6 infact you have to go full stamina or magicka to perform well.

You can skip this intro just specific for NB.

Is NB 1.6 both stamina & magicka a good class?
Yes, it is.
Are these builds fun?
Yes, they are, even if some tweaks are required.

Is NB 1.6 the canonical TES nightblade? No, it isn’t.
It's a great mix of nightblade, thief, rogue, scout and witchunter but without a peculiarity.

NB is clearly a class created to be that kind of class or a mix of those but the problem is simply one: it should be hybrid with both physical and magical attacks and abilities.

So, even if I agree with @DDuke on many things he posted, on Drain Power not because of lore/RPG perspective of TES setting.

Here the problem is not Drain Power but instead another one and related to the development of this class (not in the beginning but in 1.6): even if messy for some players, pre 1.6 was perfectly fine to fit that or those canonical TES class/classes, some changements were required but not in the way it is in 1.6.

Why do we have sets like Night’s Mother Gaze, Stygian, Torug’s Pact Undaunted Infiltrator or Unweaver, Prisoner’s Rags?

It’s because of hybrid builds amongst every class and what I wrote about NB.

With 1.6 then we have an huge discrepancy.
Before 1.6 goes live or these sets must be changed as well (and there are many) or the way that Ultimates and some skills (like Assassin’s Will) works have to change.

Imho the best solution would be use a different calculation for Ultimates, skills with stamina or magicka morphs and some skills (or even every skill):
these should be based not just on the max stat but on both magicka/spell dmg&crit and stamina/weapon dmg&crit stats.


This would help not just hybrid builds but also tanks.
It would give every player with every class the chance to play and to create the character they want, as it was advertised: "Play as you want".


Many console players who will buy TESO Unlimited are used to the TES playstyle so this is not just a matter of balancement for us PC/Mac users but also for future players.

So, in the end, 1.6 is a great patch but this tweak would make happy a greater number of players or simply every player.
Atm infact, even being a great patch, 1.6 doesn't deliver the claim "Play as you want".

Varicite

So what you're proposing would be something like (incredibly oversimplifying here, just for clarity):

magicka(spell damage) + stamina(weapon damage) / 2 = base damage

Is that right?

Helluin

Yep, to oversimplify it, that one could be a way, maybe using a different multiplier.
This is mainly for Ultimates and skills based on max stats (like Assassin's Will).

It can be extended to morphs with stamina or magicka, etc, but it's better start with Ultimates and those skills.

Normal skills would be fine since as an hybrid build you can't pretend to hit or heal as strong as someone deeply specialized on those but you simply have a wider arsenal of usable skills.

bowmanz607

I kinda like that idea. have a base damage as opposed to spell damage or weapon damage, and then based on what kind of resource the skill uses you can add sort of a bonus damage for how many points you have in that resource. so, when you use a stam or magika ability you get a base damage based of a common damage pool. additionally, if you use a magika based abiliy you will get bonus damage for the amount of magika you have and vice versa for stam abilities.
This would allow hybrids to, as mentioned above, stay viable in battle by having an increased arsenal while still allowing ppl who want to specialize one way or the other to have increased damage. Moreover, the armor could help with this also. the more medium armor you have the higher your stam damage will be. ditto with light armor. then a hybrid can mix and match to their play style while still providing a boost to specialized players.

Berinima

Helluin is absolutely right. Hybrid builds have always be a problem and while ZOS claims that they are fixing this issue, they are not. In fact, they are making things way worse with the new patch. I opened another thread here:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/149178/feedback-and-concerns-about-1-6-some-clarifications-needed

Unfortunately it is very long because first off, the reason for this problem is very complicated and also I am addressing several other problems. I personally think it is worth a read though if you find the time.

But regarding hybrid builds the bottom line is: Skill scaling based on the resource pool HAS to go. In my humble opinion, Helluin is totally right with his statements.

Shadesofkin

I've always avoided the hybrid build, but I don't want to feel as if I /have/ to avoid the hybrid build. I am disappointed there is continued trouble with allowing hybrid builds to be viable in the endgame content and hardmode content.

Domander

I agree, if you try to have your character with any kind of balanced stamina/magicka you put your character at a great disadvantage.

templar_von_midgard

I have to absolutely agree.
Though, I would much more like if I would be able to mix and match magicka and stamina abilities. (not them to be scaled by some over-complicated formula, although a good one would be this:
base_damage := scaling_factor*spell_damage + (1-scaling_factor)*weapon_damage (where 0<=scaling_factor<=1) )
My biggest concern is not damage output, but consistency.
So, if all class abilities had a stamina and a magicka morph, it would be consistent. Or even better, there would be an all stamina class skill, a hybrid (where one morph is stamina and the other is magicka based) and a magicka class skill.
E.g. for nightblades:

• Assassination could be the stamina skill
• Shadow could be the hybrid
• Siphoning is clearly the magicka

Oh and please bear in mind, that almost all of my stamina consumption is from stealthing!!

Valencer

I don't really understand why 1.6 would specifically disadvantage hybrid builds. The removal of soft caps?

Derra

Valencer wrote: »

I don't really understand why 1.6 would specifically disadvantage hybrid builds. The removal of soft caps?

The removal of softcaps and skill dependance on one or the other (stamina or magica, spelldmg or weapondmg) attribute.
The change in jewelry (especially regeneration) glyphs, is also a major factor imho.

I can only theorycraft on that topic though (the zos v14 templates don´t even cut it for pure magica or stamina builds - hybrids require extra effort even in 1.5). Will be one of the things i´m going to test once EU chars get copied.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

Hybrid builds no longer work for two reasons:

First the removal of soft caps means that the raw power of the hybrid build compared to the stamina and magicka build becomes a lot weaker than it is currently on live. You simply lose damage, healing and survive ability.

Second the flexibility advantage is lost when so many class abilities is moved to stamina.

Right now on live, the best thing you can do is to put no points into either stamina or magicka. Set one of the stats as your combat stat and the other should be regulated to a secondary support role.

A stamina build will most often still have some magicka abilities that is useful and supportive of the main stamina abilities. A magicka build can always use a little stamina for dodge/block/break free.

A secondary stat with no stat points invested in it will be enough for this secondary role and any points you have moved from your main stat to your support stat will only make you overall weaker.

Emma_Overload

Agreed. Hybrid builds were always problematic, but soft caps hid the issues somewhat. Now it's obvious that the way damage scale from one max resource is wack!

joshisanonymous

If all you're talking about is capping damage, then taking softcaps out makes hybrid builds seem impossible. However, the best build is not necessarily the one that does the highest damage. I think removing the softcaps will increase build diversity a good deal because there's a real choice now instead of being able to essentially cap all skills.

For instance, you can go crazy on magicka and literally not put a point into anything that would augment any other stat or any ability that uses any other stat. You now have a magicka DPS machine that can barely break out or dodge roll once, you'll have no armor or spell resist, and you better not get hit by literally anything, because anything would kill this toon. So you have incentive to not focus so heavily on magicka, but you can if you want to, if all you want is to be a magicka DPS machine.

Hybrid builds, however, would not have nearly as much DPS, but could have quite a bit more defense, versatility, and/or utility. This is pretty much been the case with hybrid builds in every MMO that has ever existed. It has also been the case for DPS builds that focus on just that role. Look at WAR, a sorcerer could kill basically anything in one hit but had no chance at all to get away from anything and died when brushed against while a zealot had a solution for basically every situation but couldn't DPS like a sorcerer at all. Or look at GW2, there are no stat caps but people rarely focus on exploding people in a single swing because then they'd die instantly, and there is a huge plethora of viable builds for every class in that game. Or look at DAoC, where stat caps existed but where hybrid classes, like minstrels, were highly versatile and self-sufficient but couldn't dream of tanking like a warrior or DPSing like a cabalist. That doesn't mean they weren't useful and perfectly viable. Their advantage was versatility, which is always the case for hybrids.

Varicite

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Hybrid builds, however, would not have nearly as much DPS, but could have quite a bit more defense, versatility, and/or utility. This is pretty much been the case with hybrid builds in every MMO that has ever existed.

This is ESO, not every other MMO that has existed.

Unfortunately, while your theories are very nice, they do not actually reflect reality.

You can hybridize in 1.6, but not only will your DPS be sub-par, but you won't have enough magicka or stamina to have this versatility you're talking about.

But, go ahead, I encourage you to try it and see how you like it. Play the way you want, after all. Just don't be mad if the way you want turns out to be a mess when compared to everyone else. : )

Jar_Ek

The OP's point is that any skill that scales of the highest of Max magicka or Max stamina (I.e. both are assessed not just one of them) is always going to be lower in capability for a hybrid. The answer is, as has been suggested, to scale it off the combined total... probably with a scaling factor to iron out pure stat diminishing returns (otherwise hybrid ultimates would be more powerful than any pure build).

Anyway I agree.

sabresandiego_ESO

Well another issue is that the same builds that have the highest offense also have incredibly high defense.

A 7/7 light armor build that puts every single point into magicka will not only have the highest outgoing magicka damage, it will also have the strongest damage shields. As long as the damage shields are recast repeatedly over and over again, the class will not really be that squishy.

This is one of the issues with 1.6, although the same issue is on live. 1.6 is still the best version of the game to date, but this issue is valid.

Helluin

That's why I stated this:

Normal skills would be fine since as an hybrid build you can't pretend to hit or heal as strong as someone deeply specialized on those but you simply have a wider arsenal of usable skills.

The problems are what explained by Varicite and the skills and Ultimates based only on max stat (every Ultimate and Grim Focus/Assassin's Will for example).

Consider also that at the moment there are 3 passive skills in Light Armor and Medium Armor that are quite unclear:
- it is written that they require a full set (so 7/7)
- testing stats instead I saw that just 5/7 is enough to get the bonus

So or the tooltips are wrong or there is a bug and then they could be changed into 7/7.

Another big issue is that a great number of armor sets (craftable and droppable ones) have hybrid stats because they are based on how skills are working in 1.5.
These sets didn't receive any changement.

The recently introduced Undaunted sets and the passive Undaunted Mettle are clearly something that incentivate hybridization.
So, why introduce them with 1.6 changement planned?

The proposed changement, to how Ultimate and certain skills could be calculated, can be also applied to the skills with a stamina/magicka morph so every player can pick the morph he/she prefers and consumes the resource he/she prefers.

This would help a lot not only hybrid builds but also tanks that have an huge problem with the management of resources.
Stamina builds have also a bigger stamina depletion because of the new stamina morphs and higher costs of blocks, dodge roll, break free. This would help those to use the secondary resource.
Probably it would be even better to have a third resource for break free and dodge roll; since this was often requested but there is no chance to see it, at least the secondary resource is usefull.

Berinima

Many good ideas here... Also in this thread:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/149445/make-us-able-to-chose-stamina-or-magica-class-skills#latest

I really would like to see some better strategies from ZOS how hybrid builds could become more valid.

indigoblades

I never understood why they did not use the sum of Stamina & Magika to determine base damage .... if an attribute is not in health, then its an offensive attribute and should scale ur damage. That would simplify everything, hybrid builds would work. It would also make it much easier to have non traditional builds like for instance a Stamina Sorc or magicka night blade.

Berinima

Great idea to be honest!

Helluin

Honestly I don't completely like the idea you linked because of balancement issues and it could be more complex to be changed.

I like it because it's great to grant more options.
I don't like it because:
- magicka and stamina builds would have the same skills; then even weapons should change because a caster could desire to be a sort of Dark Knight with a 2H sword and spells (that is something that can be achieved by hybrid builds)
- an even bigger stamina depletion for stamina builds

That idea would be doable just adding a third resource pool for break free, dodge roll, etc. or buffing a lot the stamina regeneration and reducing the stamina costs. This second option could create problems in Pve encounters where those actions are not needed so, for dmg sustainability, a stamina build could be a lot stronger than a magicka one.

It's a good proposal to achieve the same goal we are speaking in this topic but it would require more work for it and to change many sets.

Imho it can be easier the proposal of a combined total of magicka/stamina or the one based on weapon (both staves and physical ones).
Doing so, there is no need to rework the sets already in game.
As I wrote before, this is mainly about Ultimates and skills using the highest stat, but it can work also for the skills with stamina & magicka morphs or every skill.

It would be a benefit for a larger number of players or simply every player.
It's not just for hybrid builds and tanks but, adding the stamina/magicka morphs to this system, it would let the players using a magicka or stamina build to be able to get the morph they prefer.

Helluin

Could we have a feedback on this matter (especially about ultimates and skills using the highest stat) and on hybrid sets please?

lathbury

yeah a nice solution to problem that has had the developers stumped for a while it seems.
would really open up build potential and make those hybrid sets useful it would also make champion points spent in your minor resource seem worthwhile.
zos really need to look at this thread

Snit

Make everything viable. Most DPS skills should scale from the higher of:

- Magicka
- Stamina
- (Magicka + Stamina)/2.25

I'm leaving a slight DPS advantage for 'pure' builds, as hybrid builds have some advantages (chiefly, the ability to select appropriate damage types for foes with specific defenses).

Helluin

Thanks for your feedbacks.

An hybrid build is already around that kind of damage or better on PTS but it is lower than pure builds.
That's why recently I was thinking that probably the combined pool could require something different and not what proposed (it was infact a first example just to oversimplify and make it understandable).

A character with 18k magicka, 18k health, 20k stamina, for example, has already its damage with Ultimates scaling off stamina, so 20k.
(18+20)/2 or 2,25 would mean consider the highest stat as 19k or 16,8k.
It would be even less than what it is atm so it wouldn't reach the purpose to make viable an hybrid build on Ultimates.
An option could be: (total/3)x2.
Using the same example, the result would be 25,3k.

On normal skills dmg could be based on max stamina and max magicka accordingly, as it is already on PTS. So these skills are and would be weaker than a pure stamina or magicka build. This is already how it works and it's balanced.
Only Ultimates, Synergies, skills based on the highest stat (usual Assassin's Will example) and maybe also the class skills with a stamina or magicka morph could scale off a common pool with a multiplier.

The first proposal we used, to oversimplify, or yours would make an Ultimate even weaker than how it is now.

As I said there are several options and I'm sure that, if devs want to make hybrid builds viable and not change several sets in game, they would surely find something better and more balanced than what we are discussing.
This is the goal "make hybrid builds viable", no matter how.

An issue could arise: how can an hybrid build be identified?
An option is to consider it so when both magicka and stamina are close by X%, otherwise a build with 30k magicka and 9k stamina could risk to be less stronger than what it is.

sagitter

so yoo would like to have the best dps, and the best utility without loosing anything... mhhh , this is not a common thing in mmo logic, it's opportunistic.

Snit

sagitter wrote: »

so yoo would like to have the best dps, and the best utility without loosing anything... mhhh , this is not a common thing in mmo logic, it's opportunistic.

There's plenty of middle ground, if ZOS is interested in the issue. I don't play a hybrid -- I play pure casters. But everything about the Elder Scrolls tradition and the "Play as you want" creed for TESO says that hybrids should be competitive. With the removal of softcaps, they won't be.

That should change. Someone who wants to play a Two-Hander/ Destro Staff sorc Or a Resto/ Dual Wield nightblade shouldn't be consigned to just roleplay.

Helluin

sagitter wrote: »

so yoo would like to have the best dps, and the best utility without loosing anything... mhhh , this is not a common thing in mmo logic, it's opportunistic.

It seems you missed a part or previous posts.
I resume it.

I and others stated already that versatility is something already in place and you have it by lowering your dps a lot compared to a pure build.
It's something balanced: you gain utility, you lose dps.
Nobody wants to change that or be able to have both utility and high dps.
Class skills, weapon skills (physical and staves), world skills, guild skills, alliance war skills are already weaker for an hybrid build and it's fine.

What we are speaking about and asking it's mainly about what scales off the highest stat, so mainly Ultimates but also Synergies and probably just a couple of skills using this system instead of the usual one for all the skills (stamina/weapon stats when stamina is consumed, magicka/spell when magicka is consumed).

The part about class skills with stamina/magicka morphs was added only in a second moment and it's not the reason of the topic.
It was infact an idea to solve another issue arised on feedbacks in forum by others: to help out those players using a pure magicka or pure stamina build but unhappy about the morphs chosen to be stamina or magicka one.

I hope it's more understandable now.

prototypefb

any Ulti dmg scaling should be based on character level multiplied by highest resource, at the ratio where resoucrce impact is about 2.5% total dmg, there you go hybrid/no hybrid makes almost no difference, case closed, next :P

Jar_Ek

I thought the point of this thread was to request that hybrid builds are not hamstrung by the cap removal... in other words they retain their relative level of effectiveness. And this may become more pertinent to more builds as stamina morphs will make a number of builds more hybridised.

But as a question, why should a hybrid be significantly worse than a pure build? Both types of build have 10 slots total and 2 weapons... finding synergy within a hybrid build is hard enough without deliberately making them weaker. No-one is asking for hybrid to be the top of the tree, but they would like them to at least be off the damned ground.

Helluin

Correct, it's one of the main points together with the hybrid sets atm quite useless, some proposals, possible solutions helping also pure builds, etc.

Did the removal of softcaps make these builds less effective?
Yes, for something, but it's also a good thing.
The real problem is how damage and healing are calculated especially for Ultimates and some other skills.
It's this that, together with the removal of the sofcaps, created a problem, not simply the removal of softcaps.