Surge in 1.6

ToRelax

From the PTS patch notes:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Surge

• This ability now applies the Major Brutality buff.
• Power Surge: This ability now applies the Major Brutality and Major Sorcery buffs.
• Critical Surge: This ability now has a one second cooldown on the heal.

What we knew so far was that it would grant a much smaller buff and not buff Destruction Staff abilities with Critical Surge. Though I still think it would have been a good thing to let both morphs heal, one giving a weapon damage buff and one a spell damage buff.

However, the cooldown for the surge heal is just horrible game design in my opinion.
I believe it is to prevent Sorcerers from getting their enourmous heal by damaging a great amount of players with AoE abilities. That would make it different from the other AoE skills wich will not apply their special effects to more than 6 players. I don't think that is a good thing anyway as it still encourages zergballing, but that is not the point here.

The cooldown will make Critical Surge
1. useless against several enemies and
2. it will not work if you are applying ANY DoT at all.

The spell damage morph seems to be a thing for hybrid builds, as a magicka build you just use Entropy.

So please, ZOS, this has to be fixed before the Update goes live if you don't want to screw any Sorc who does not want to be a boring pet DD in some PvE dungeon.
Make Power Surge competitive and take out the cooldown from critical Surge.
In the best case apply the weapon damage buff only to "Critical Surge" (rename it) and give both morphs the healing component.

If you are afraid of the healing a Sorcerer could get without the cooldown please think of a better way to reduce or cap it. Make a cap of maximum heal per second for example, maybe scaling with spell damage&magicka / weapon damage&stamina dependant on the morph. Or just don't let AoE abilities surge heal for more than 6 targets. Those are just my thoughts, you should come up with something better than this cooldown though it is really bad design.

Emma_Overload

ToRelax wrote: »

From the PTS patch notes:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Surge

• This ability now applies the Major Brutality buff.
• Power Surge: This ability now applies the Major Brutality and Major Sorcery buffs.
• Critical Surge: This ability now has a one second cooldown on the heal.

If you are afraid of the healing a Sorcerer could get without the cooldown...

Since when was this ever a problem? Who was complaining about sorcerer heals to begin with? Critical surge has NEVER been overpowered, considering how gimmicky and finicky it is because it depends on critting... AKA "luck"! Never mind the fact that you actually have to CAST surge before you can receive any benefit from it. Surge should always have been a toggle IMHO, because most sorcs have it on both bars, anyway.

Sorcerers should just say NO to the cooldown, no ifs, ands or buts. No compromises (from sorcs) should be asked for or offered.... just remove the cooldown, PERIOD.

ToRelax

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

From the PTS patch notes:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Surge

• This ability now applies the Major Brutality buff.
• Power Surge: This ability now applies the Major Brutality and Major Sorcery buffs.
• Critical Surge: This ability now has a one second cooldown on the heal.

If you are afraid of the healing a Sorcerer could get without the cooldown...

Since when was this ever a problem? Who was complaining about sorcerer heals to begin with? Critical surge has NEVER been overpowered, considering how gimmicky and finicky it is because it depends on critting... AKA "luck"! Never mind the fact that you actually have to CAST surge before you can receive any benefit from it. Surge should always have been a toggle IMHO, because most sorcs have it on both bars, anyway.

Sorcerers should just say NO to the cooldown, no ifs, ands or buts. No compromises (from sorcs) should be asked for or offered.... just remove the cooldown, PERIOD.

I agree but there was a thred in alliance war forum or general discussion, not sure. However, this point was mentioned and back before Streak/Harness/Impulse nerfs when few people were wearing Impenetrable, I had decent surviviablity in zergballs with crit surge and absorbtion field (wich gets nerfed both now to make the circle full).

Also I already wrote:

ToRelax wrote: »

However, the cooldown for the surge heal is just horrible game design in my opinion.
I believe it is to prevent Sorcerers from getting their enourmous heal by damaging a great amount of players with AoE abilities. That would make it different from the other AoE skills wich will not apply their special effects to more than 6 players. I don't think that is a good thing anyway as it still encourages zergballing, but that is not the point here.

We just can't do much about it when ZOS thinks they have to do something for the poor zergballs other than telling them over and over again that it's horrible design and stacking up should come with high risk instead of protecting the players.

If this is not the reason for the change I don't see any point in it at all anyway.

PS:

Sorry, I've overseen this part at first, but seriously, this is nonsense:

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Surge should always have been a toggle IMHO, because most sorcs have it on both bars, anyway.

Surge is an expensive buff over 20 seconds (with Power Surge 40 seconds until 1.6). There is no point in using it on both bars if there is any other useful ability you could use instead. In PvE I was using it once on both bars when I had no use for Healing Springs in Bannished Cells - in PvP that would be just dumb.

Exstazik

Entropy
Entropy now grants you the Major Sorcery buff for 20 seconds when cast.
Increased the damage over time component of this ability by 20%.


Surge
This ability now applies the Major Brutality buff.
Power Surge: This ability now applies the Major Brutality and Major Sorcery buffs.
Critical Surge: This ability now has a one second cooldown on the heal.


Flames of Oblivion (morph): This ability now provides the same effect as Inferno, as well as providing the Major Savagery buff while active.
Inferno(This ability has completely changed. It can now be toggled, has no cost, and deals no area of effect damage. Instead, when toggled on, Inferno will fire a projectile at the nearest target within 15 meters while in combat. In addition, Inferno provides the Major Prophecy buff while active.)


Solution:
Power Surge and Critical Surge: can now be toggled, has no cost,

tunepunk

A '(per target hit)-2 second cooldown, maybe with slightly icreased heal' would be much more prefferred.

That would still make it efficient enough to save your life when facing multiple foes without it being overpowered, and restrict potential AOE spammers.

VoiDGhOs7

Been playing sorc since beggining i've experienced every ability changes/nerfs and so on.
The change to crit surge is big nerf for the class survivability(at least in pve,never used it in pvp coz impenetrable trait)the changes for ultimate gain will make the sorc very squishy and in all honesty giving the heal for both spell dmg/weapon dmg increase morphs wont be a problem.
1st: because the healing is capped at 6 targets,it doesnt matter if youll hit 60 targets the incoming heal will be capped at 6.
2nd:a cooldown in heal received?really?this is total non sense,if i crit and get heal back and i get dmged almost to death i wont be able to heal coz surge was on cooldown.
Please get rid of cooldown and as many players suggested make a morph increase spelldmg and the other weapon dmg making and leth both morphs heal.

tunepunk

If you compare the new critical surge with momentum. They are basically the same skill. One of them heals X evey 2 seconds. One heals X every crit, with cooldown. one uses Stamina, the other uses magicka.

Only one thing makes me scratch my head. Does investing points in to Stamina or Magicka provide any benefit anymore?

Pre 1.6. surge damage would increase depending on magicka. These new "buffs" seems not to scale on investment of attribute points which would make them pretty useless.

ToRelax

tunepunk wrote: »

If you compare the new critical surge with momentum. They are basically the same skill. One of them heals X evey 2 seconds. One heals X every crit, with cooldown. one uses Stamina, the other uses magicka.

Only one thing makes me scratch my head. Does investing points in to Stamina or Magicka provide any benefit anymore?

Pre 1.6. surge damage would increase depending on magicka. These new "buffs" seems not to scale on investment of attribute points which would make them pretty useless.

Yes I don't like the new Buff system personally as it seems to cut into build diversity, but have to see and many seem to like it as of yet, so I'll guess I can do with it.

However, don't forget Momentum gives you a burst heal when refreshing the buff that increases with the time it was active since you used it last time. Surge heal is completely random. If you want constant healing, you have to apply DoTs and do damage constantly, but with the DoTs you are now actually negating your heal with that cooldown, that is what I call terrible design. There is no way to make surge a reliable heal now, if you try you won't recognize the healing at all anymore in most situations.

NordJitsu

The answer is clear.

Critical Surge (base skill): Costs magicka. Critical hits heal you for 65% of damage dealt.

Power Surge (morph): Costs Stamina, Buffs Weapon Power (Major Brutality or whatever the hell), and Critical Hits Heal you for 65% of damage dealt.

Spell Surge (morph): Cost Magicka, Buffs Spell Damage (Major Sorcery), and Critical hits heal you for 65% of damage dealt.

This is the only acceptable solution.

NotSo

Major Brutality: +20% weapon damage
Major Sorcery: +20% spell damage
Both are attached to Spell Surge

Leovolao

NordJitsu wrote: »

The answer is clear.

Critical Surge (base skill): Costs magicka. Critical hits heal you for 65% of damage dealt.

Power Surge (morph): Costs Stamina, Buffs Weapon Power (Major Brutality or whatever the hell), and Critical Hits Heal you for 65% of damage dealt.

Spell Surge (morph): Cost Magicka, Buffs Spell Damage (Major Sorcery), and Critical hits heal you for 65% of damage dealt.

This is the only acceptable solution.

I would consider toning it down to 40% or even 35% just so people don't cry about it. Even tho I think capping the heal at 6 targets is enough.
I seriously don't know what the *** were they thinking.

NordJitsu

Leovolao wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

The answer is clear.

Critical Surge (base skill): Costs magicka. Critical hits heal you for 65% of damage dealt.

Power Surge (morph): Costs Stamina, Buffs Weapon Power (Major Brutality or whatever the hell), and Critical Hits Heal you for 65% of damage dealt.

Spell Surge (morph): Cost Magicka, Buffs Spell Damage (Major Sorcery), and Critical hits heal you for 65% of damage dealt.

This is the only acceptable solution.

I would consider toning it down to 40% or even 35% just so people don't cry about it. Even tho I think capping the heal at 6 targets is enough.
I seriously don't know what the [snipity snip] were they thinking.

I don't think there'd be any need to reduce the % if they capped it at 6 targets like they said they're doing with all secondary effects.

However, you still get an "Agree" because I don't know what they were thinking either.

xherics

Basicly, what I understood from changelog is, that Power surge will give weapon and spell buff, but Crit Surge will HEAL only on crit, without buff... Did I understood right or not?

Morvul

The cooldown on the surge heal meant, that a sorc using DoTs or light attacks as a very high chance of only recieving miniscule heals, since those tiny crits will "eat up" the heal-oportunities

xherics

crit surge has weapon buff only, so so so ***...

xherics wrote: »

ZOS, i have to ASK! Are you joking to NERF to die the SORC class?

Why no healing with spell damage on SURGE? Selfheal only with STAMINA weapon? Spell buff only, when no self-heal? Why? Do you want to delete sorc from the game at all? This change is unacceptable) Sorc was the worse class already, why do you nerfing it more and more and more?
Until now we had at least self-healing, we were able to solo content, but after this change it will be not possible properly...

Sorc needs to use STAFF for making DPS, STAFF is based on SPELL damage! With this change, SORC HAS NO SELF-HEAL ABILITY!
And do not mention the cooldown of healing and also crit % nerf... With all of these nerfs, SORC will be weaker than BEFORE!

I can imagine the sorc surge like this, but no other way and I think, everybody can say the same:

Surge = "heal on crit" (without cooldown!) OR "weapon buff AND spell buff"
Power surge = heal on crit + weapon buff (without cooldown!) - costs stamina
Spell surge = heal on crit + spell buff (without cooldown!) - costs magicka




@ZOS_GinaBruno‌
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

Magdalina

If aoe counts for 6 hits on 6 targets and not 1(so you only get one tiny heal), this is nuts.

That's nerfing even stamina sorc, not to mention magicka sorc now have exactly one useful class skill - execute. Unless pets but I REALLY doubt it. PTS almost loaded, gonna test it in a few.

Seriously, people were crying all over forums that sorc are weak, squishy, need a more reliant selfheal, need more dps, need stamina management, need direct instant attacks, need DoTs...and all they could come up with was nerfing...hell pretty much removing our only selfheal?

Fruity_Ninja

Magdalina wrote: »

Seriously, people were crying all over forums that sorc are weak, squishy, need a more reliant selfheal, need more dps, need stamina management, need direct instant attacks, need DoTs...and all they could come up with was nerfing...hell pretty much removing our only selfheal?

It's still not live. There is hope. I think

xherics

Fruity_Ninja wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Seriously, people were crying all over forums that sorc are weak, squishy, need a more reliant selfheal, need more dps, need stamina management, need direct instant attacks, need DoTs...and all they could come up with was nerfing...hell pretty much removing our only selfheal?

It's still not live. There is hope. I think

I lost all my hope yesterday, when I saw the changes on sorc... I think I will quit the game; I really do not want to do all the achievements again on new char, and when ZOS decides to nerf this new char/class re-do everything again... So, so, so stupid changes on sorc... Is weaker than before.

Fruity_Ninja

xherics wrote: »

Fruity_Ninja wrote: »

I lost all my hope yesterday, when I saw the changes on sorc... I think I will quit the game; I really do not want to do all the achievements again on new char, and when ZOS decides to nerf this new char/class re-do everything again... So, so, so stupid changes on sorc... Is weaker than before.

Not worth quitting over yet. PTS means maybe they can make some key changes (hopefully based on our feedback), and when it hits live we'll have some semblance of a decent class.

xherics

Fruity_Ninja wrote: »

Not worth quitting over yet. PTS means maybe they can make some key changes (hopefully based on our feedback), and when it hits live we'll have some semblance of a decent class.

I ment quit, if ZOS does not change their mind and buff the sorc, or at least change this s*h*i*t*t*y surge to spell buff+healing or weap buff+healing... there is no point anymore to play sorc...

C0pp3rhead

NordJitsu wrote: »

The answer is clear.

Critical Surge (base skill): Costs magicka. Critical hits heal you for 65% of damage dealt.

Power Surge (morph): Costs Stamina, Buffs Weapon Power (Major Brutality or whatever the hell), and Critical Hits Heal you for 65% of damage dealt.

Spell Surge (morph): Cost Magicka, Buffs Spell Damage (Major Sorcery), and Critical hits heal you for 65% of damage dealt.

This is the only acceptable solution.

THIS. Why would the effects be different for a stamina user? Isn't the point of the stamina morphs to allow non-magicka builds to utilize their class skills? "Sure, we'll let you use the skills, but they won't be as good," does not sound fair to me.

lebanese87b16_ESO

I am not going to nor will I ever use pets in the game. I hate their AI and I hate depending on pets to stay alive. If that is the path they want to take with sorcerers then they need to change their class name.

Exstazik

Surge (morph): When Slotted Buffs Spell Damage (minor Sorcery) and Buffs Weapon Power(minor)

Spell Surge (base skill): When Slotted Buffs Spell Damage(major buff). When toggled Critical hits heal you for 65% of damage dealt and reduce .....forgot about reduce something as you do with Dk's Flames of oblivion

Power Surge (morph): When Slotted Buffs Weapon Power (Major Brutality ), and when toggled on Critical Hits Heal you for 65% of damage dealt.


IF nothing will change give us RR throw Crown Shop or i aslo leave the game( as many of sorc's will do)

Philthyorc

For real Zos, bring back the crit healing in both morphs... This is just silly. You know magica sorc dps is a BIG problem. Give us something viable PLEASE.

DeLindsay

Question, has ANYONE actually tested Crit Surge on PTS to confirm 100% that during AOE you only get 1 tiny Heal based on a single target instead of 6 (the same cap ZoS put on Sap Essence for it's Heal portion)? Also the comment about DoT's is wrong. As long as the damage done by said DoT is less than once per second then Crit Surge would Heal on every single tick. With exception to a Sorc stacking multiple DoT's on multiple targets you can't attack more than once per 1.3 seconds anyway. The drawback ofc is that it won't heal on EVERY drop of damage the Sorc does and likely the reason they did that is the removal of AOE caps. Sap Essence would've been the same way had they not capped it to 6 targets for the Heal.

lebanese87b16_ESO

DeLindsay wrote: »

Question, has ANYONE actually tested Crit Surge on PTS to confirm 100% that during AOE you only get 1 tiny Heal based on a single target instead of 6 (the same cap ZoS put on Sap Essence for it's Heal portion)? Also the comment about DoT's is wrong. As long as the damage done by said DoT is less than once per second then Crit Surge would Heal on every single tick. With exception to a Sorc stacking multiple DoT's on multiple targets you can't attack more than once per 1.3 seconds anyway. The drawback ofc is that it won't heal on EVERY drop of damage the Sorc does and likely the reason they did that is the removal of AOE caps. Sap Essence would've been the same way had they not capped it to 6 targets for the Heal.

Yes I tested it yesterday with other builds for a few hours. If you attack a group with an AOE it will only heal from 1 mob even if they were all hit at the same time.

Remove the cooldown and have it only heal off of a maximum of 6 mobs from AOE. I am hearing rumors that they will no longer be revising any classes especially sorc so if that is true then I will hang up the gloves because I am way too burnt out from the horrible VR grind anyways.

Nightreaver

lebanese87b16_ESO wrote: »

I am hearing rumors that they will no longer be revising any classes especially sorc so if that is true then I will hang up the gloves because I am way too burnt out from the horrible VR grind anyways.

Actually, a couple days before 1.6 was introduced to PTS, a Dev stated that the solution @NordJitsu mentioned was being considered in place of the current version depending on feedback from players.

So I would suggest that anyone who is unhappy with the current version on PTS provide /feedback and let them know how you feel as well as how you would like to see it changed.

We just need to get a lot more people doing the same.

DeLindsay

lebanese87b16_ESO wrote: »

Yes I tested it yesterday with other builds for a few hours. If you attack a group with an AOE it will only heal from 1 mob even if they were all hit at the same time.

Remove the cooldown and have it only heal off of a maximum of 6 mobs from AOE. I am hearing rumors that they will no longer be revising any classes especially sorc so if that is true then I will hang up the gloves because I am way too burnt out from the horrible VR grind anyways.

Well that's just stupid. There's no reason that Crit Surge shouldn't heal based on up to 6 Targets like Sap Essence does in 1.6. Thanks for the response.

Exstazik

Since Surge no loger scale with maximum magicka also need to add Major Berserker Buff to surge (base skill).On live surge give ~43% to weapon power(in magicka build) on pts only 25%....nice nerf


Critical Surge (base skill): Costs magicka. Critical hits heal you for 65% of damage dealt.Gives you Major Berserker buff.

Power Surge (morph): Costs Stamina, Buffs Weapon Power (Major Brutality Buff), and Critical Hits Heal you for 65% of damage dealt.Also Gives you Major Berserker buff

Spell Surge (morph): Cost Magicka, Buffs Spell Damage (Major Sorcery), and Critical hits heal you for 65% of damage dealt.Also Gives you Major Berserker buff
P.S
Also AOE heal should count:(all AOE damage from one skill which was Crit)*0,65=Total heal .

lebanese87b16_ESO

Nightreaver wrote: »

lebanese87b16_ESO wrote: »

I am hearing rumors that they will no longer be revising any classes especially sorc so if that is true then I will hang up the gloves because I am way too burnt out from the horrible VR grind anyways.

Actually, a couple days before 1.6 was introduced to PTS, a Dev stated that the solution @NordJitsu mentioned was being considered in place of the current version depending on feedback from players.

So I would suggest that anyone who is unhappy with the current version on PTS provide /feedback and let them know how you feel as well as how you would like to see it changed.

We just need to get a lot more people doing the same.

I really hope this is true. I left /feedback about this with the same solution @NordJitsu‌ has presented above. Now we wait and see if the feedback will provide any changes to this. Cheers for the info.

angelyn

I've posted this elsewhere but there be so many threads and I don't know which one the devs may see:
LIGHT ARMOUR MAGICKA SORCS HIT 3 TIMES OVER IN THIS UPDATE:

• Nerfed health of all players- didn't scale health up same amount as other stats
• Nerfed light armour -to provide only 25% protection that heavy can
• Nerfed only remotely reliable healing for class- crit surge.

CRIT SURGE WAS THE ONLY REMOTELY RELIABLE SELF HEAL IN OUR OWN SKILL TREE(PVE)
So the main reason they nerfed Crit surge healing was due to the combination of impenetrable & AOE changes that will affect PVP? I can understand how the new AOE system means that healing off of a high crit AOE ability might make you OP.However, I wondered why all AOE healing abilities for all classes didn't have a 1 second cooldown implemented.

Even if there was no cooldown I have to choose between weapon power+healing or boost to spell power:

• Stamina sorcs get healing(albiet at 1 second cooldown nerf rate)plus increased damage
  
• Magicka sorcs get increased damage

Why should I PVE magicka sorc now have no viable self healing skills from my own class because they redesigned the AOE and impenetrable system?I'm not saying that the AOE changes or the Impenetrable changes are bad. I'm only saying that as a class, sorcerer's have no real self healing skill now because ZOS rendered our only remotely reliable heal (in PVE!) useless. In addition, they did this to stop their new system from affecting PVP negatively.

And even for stamina sorcs, a 1 second cooldown on the only remotely reliable heal from our own class tree will probably now not make it onto their bar. However, they may actually get some heals in PVP with the changes to impenetrable?

ANY OTHER RELIABLE SELF HEALS IN OUR OWN SKILL TREE?
There is hardened ward as an alternative to heal but because from now on all sorcs have to use pets, we will be picking the empowered ward morph instead so that we can have measly DPS.

Dark Exchange is another class ability that has promise for both magicka and stamina sorcs, but its rendered useless by the fact that it's a channeled ability.

IDEAL SOLUTION
@NordJitsu suggestion in this very thread:http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/148366/surge-in-1-6/p1

NordJitsu wrote: »

The answer is clear.

Critical Surge (base skill): Costs magicka. Critical hits heal you for 65% of damage dealt.

Power Surge (morph): Costs Stamina, Buffs Weapon Power (Major Brutality or whatever the hell), and Critical Hits Heal you for 65% of damage dealt.

Spell Surge (morph): Cost Magicka, Buffs Spell Damage (Major Sorcery), and Critical hits heal you for 65% of damage dealt.

This is the only acceptable solution.

NordJitsu wrote: »

I don't think there'd be any need to reduce the % if they capped it at 6 targets like they said they're doing with all secondary effects.

ALTERNATIVE SOLUTION IF NOT WILLING TO CHANGE SURGE
Make Dark Exchange it an instant cast like @Kilandros suggested in this post:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/147868/suggestion-dark-exchange

Either way sorcs will actually have something in the SORCERER tree that can reliably heal them. That is the reason why so many sorcs are complaining. Give me a reliable heal in my own class tree.