ZOS You Are Making a Big Mistake Nerfing Stealth Sneak Attack As It Will Destroy Bow Attacks

Varicite

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Zos have continually dropped the ball with stam/stealth types builds. For those who say "adapt", have you considered that some don't want to play this game if they have to use magicka skills? Just putting it out there for something to epxand your mind a little.

To be honest I'm annoyed at myself for playing this game for 6 months, hell it never looked like getting better. This nerf clearly demonstrates Zos' intention.

I like weapons, and due to this I'm out, I will not be investing.

They just buffed all of the dps-oriented stamina weapons, some of them by quite a decent margin.

Your post makes no sense.

The stealth damage nerf in no way forces you to adopt a magicka build, it just means you'd better have a game plan for finishing the job after you take half a player's health from stealth.

I like weapons too, and 1.5 is probably one of the best updates so far for them.

jelliedsoup

Varicite wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Zos have continually dropped the ball with stam/stealth types builds. For those who say "adapt", have you considered that some don't want to play this game if they have to use magicka skills? Just putting it out there for something to epxand your mind a little.

To be honest I'm annoyed at myself for playing this game for 6 months, hell it never looked like getting better. This nerf clearly demonstrates Zos' intention.

I like weapons, and due to this I'm out, I will not be investing.

They just buffed all of the dps-oriented stamina weapons, some of them by quite a decent margin.

Your post makes no sense.

The stealth damage nerf in no way forces you to adopt a magicka build, it just means you'd better have a game plan for finishing the job after you take half a player's health from stealth.

I like weapons too, and 1.5 is probably one of the best updates so far for them.

They have reduced my burst damage, sure I can snipe faster, but reduced dmg from stealth, reduced stampede by 10%, reduced snipe by 5%.

You'll need to explain why this is a buff. I see no reason to see this as one, happy to be shown why though.

All that happens at the moment is endless shield stacking, absorption, once melee is open.

Let me know how 1.5 works for you, I haven't bothered with PTS as I've spent some time trying to make this type of build work, based on marketing based concepts which never seem to be actualised.

Varicite

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Zos have continually dropped the ball with stam/stealth types builds. For those who say "adapt", have you considered that some don't want to play this game if they have to use magicka skills? Just putting it out there for something to epxand your mind a little.

To be honest I'm annoyed at myself for playing this game for 6 months, hell it never looked like getting better. This nerf clearly demonstrates Zos' intention.

I like weapons, and due to this I'm out, I will not be investing.

They just buffed all of the dps-oriented stamina weapons, some of them by quite a decent margin.

Your post makes no sense.

The stealth damage nerf in no way forces you to adopt a magicka build, it just means you'd better have a game plan for finishing the job after you take half a player's health from stealth.

I like weapons too, and 1.5 is probably one of the best updates so far for them.

They have reduced my burst damage, sure I can snipe faster, but reduced dmg from stealth, reduced stampede by 10%, reduced snipe by 5%.

You'll need to explain why this is a buff. I see no reason to see this as one, happy to be shown why though.

All that happens at the moment is endless shield stacking, absorption, once melee is open.

Let me know how 1.5 works for you, I haven't bothered with PTS as I've spent some time trying to make this type of build work, based on marketing based concepts which never seem to be actualised.

Well, you seem to be looking at each of these changes in a vacuum, as though they exist separately from the buffs in other areas to the weapons.

Overall, the changes come out to a dps increase for each of the stamina dps weapons, though you're right, the burst was curbed for good reason.

Your complaint about shield stacking; are you saying that w/out your burst you simply can't win a fight against any other player or something? I mean, shield stacking is something that every build has to deal w/, stam isn't somehow worse off for this.

Killing them w/out their ability to fight back at all was never intended and it constantly surprises me (I know, it shouldn't) when people think that everyone's just gonna be cool w/ just being able to be killed in 2 seconds by someone at 35 meters that they never had a chance to react to.

And yes, that does happen.

jelliedsoup

Varicite wrote: »

Well, you seem to be looking at each of these changes in a vacuum, as though they exist separately from the buffs in other areas to the weapons.

Overall, the changes come out to a dps increase for each of the stamina dps weapons, though you're right, the burst was curbed for good reason.

Your complaint about shield stacking; are you saying that w/out your burst you simply can't win a fight against any other player or something? I mean, shield stacking is something that every build has to deal w/, stam isn't somehow worse off for this.

Killing them w/out their ability to fight back at all was never intended and it constantly surprises me (I know, it shouldn't) when people think that everyone's just gonna be cool w/ just being able to be killed in 2 seconds by someone at 35 meters that they never had a chance to react to.

And yes, that does happen.

The weapon skills I use are all getting nerfed. Bows are getting nerfed, I'm undecided on 2 handed.

So, killing from burst is not intended, shield stacking is fine. I can react to shield stacking, although there's nothing I can do about shield stacking.

I really don't get what your point is here.

kijima

Snipe is nerfed from stealth big time.

WIth the 40% time reduction you'd think snipe is a buff, but in actuality it's a nerf. How so?

Any bow user worth their salt knows that currently, you can get in stealth, get in behind a target, use snipe and while it's going through the air due to it's lengthy time frame, you can mark target before it lands, and then use venom so they all land in a quick succession.

Snipe>mark target> venom or heavy/light attack.

Now, with the 40% reduction this isn't possible, so it's a nerf plain and simple.

kijima

Doesn't matter to me though, an I don't care about the 1.5 changes as there other things we will be able to do to compensate.

I was just playing devils advocate there.

Vizier

there are so many OTHER balance tweaks coming our way it is impossible to rest the whole debate on a damage from stealth nerf. I think we'll really just have to wait and see what the end result is after a couple weeks of pvp after 1.5 release.

kijima

Give this man a ^

Bang on @Vizier as there are always going to be builds that work better than intended.

Still_Mind

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Well, you seem to be looking at each of these changes in a vacuum, as though they exist separately from the buffs in other areas to the weapons.

Overall, the changes come out to a dps increase for each of the stamina dps weapons, though you're right, the burst was curbed for good reason.

Your complaint about shield stacking; are you saying that w/out your burst you simply can't win a fight against any other player or something? I mean, shield stacking is something that every build has to deal w/, stam isn't somehow worse off for this.

Killing them w/out their ability to fight back at all was never intended and it constantly surprises me (I know, it shouldn't) when people think that everyone's just gonna be cool w/ just being able to be killed in 2 seconds by someone at 35 meters that they never had a chance to react to.

And yes, that does happen.

The weapon skills I use are all getting nerfed. Bows are getting nerfed, I'm undecided on 2 handed.

So, killing from burst is not intended, shield stacking is fine. I can react to shield stacking, although there's nothing I can do about shield stacking.

I really don't get what your point is here.

Weapon skills are *not* getting nerfed 1h+shield gets buffed (arseloads of goodness, I may even start using some skills beyond shield charge), 2h gets half-buffed (Critical Rush damage is buffed to compensate for baseline skill damage loss, Uppercut gets shorter cast time and increased damage, Momentum is getting buffed, as well as Reverse Slice), DW is getting some love (twin blade and blunt, rending spam), Bow (pretty much all skills, save for Snipe, which is side-buff, side-nerf).

Spangla

I dont believe an emp went down like that sorry without proof i call bs. Was probably hit by multiple snipes.

Varicite

Spangla wrote: »

I dont believe an emp went down like that sorry without proof i call bs. Was probably hit by multiple snipes.

http://s18.postimg.org/p99ahug6x/willkill.png

Already posted this once in the thread, but here you go again.

Single player, 4.5k in under 1 second to an Emperor. 3 hits, would have been more if Willkill hadn't run out of health so fast, lol.

Call bs all you want, but like I said. This happens, and it's not that difficult to replicate.

Sticking your head in the sand and pretending that this is somehow impossible isn't really going to help anything. ZOS doesn't feel that killing a player from 35 meters before they can react is balanced gameplay, and I'm inclined to agree w/ them.

Spangla

So the emp has 0 inpenatrable?

That does seem a bit much - however this nerf to sneak hits the melee ambush build way more and nerfs already bad racial of khajit. That's the problem

Varicite

Spangla wrote: »

So the emp has 0 inpenatrable?

That does seem a bit much - however this nerf to sneak hits the melee ambush build way more and nerfs already bad racial of khajit. That's the problem

Impenetrable doesn't stop sneak attacks from auto-critting.

Arito

Shouldn't have been a vampire. I hope he suffered.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Varicite wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

I dont believe an emp went down like that sorry without proof i call bs. Was probably hit by multiple snipes.

http://s18.postimg.org/p99ahug6x/willkill.png

Already posted this once in the thread, but here you go again.

Single player, 4.5k in under 1 second to an Emperor. 3 hits, would have been more if Willkill hadn't run out of health so fast, lol.

Call bs all you want, but like I said. This happens, and it's not that difficult to replicate.

Sticking your head in the sand and pretending that this is somehow impossible isn't really going to help anything. ZOS doesn't feel that killing a player from 35 meters before they can react is balanced gameplay, and I'm inclined to agree w/ them.

The damage done in this picture is indeed possible in theory, but for one
- it requieres you to use the archerminds 5 set pcs.
- it requieres you to use Flawless Dawnbreaker and Mark Target as dmg pump up.
- it requieres Camouflaged Hunter (+ fighters guild passives) and your target must be a Vampire
- it requieres you to pretty much softcap stamina and get close to weapon power hardcap.

But you see there is only one big issue with this picture, you are going to tell us the Emperor (which was a DK by the way), the guy that scored 10x more points than our average Joes got himself hit by a Snipe while marked in a 1vs1 scenario? Sounds pretty unbelievable to me.

In PvP any good player will immediatly start to shield stack and/or block, in a 1vs1 scenario, when the Marks even shows up. That's why NBs usualy don't take that skill, because it leaves a big "HELLO! I'M A NB AND I'M GOING TO AMBUSH YOU!" sign on top of your head.

So again, it comes to the skill of a player and his general knowledge of the game.
- if he didn't noticed the Piercing Mark
- if he didn't heard the "fssshhh" noise from the Snipe
- if he is a vampire

If all those points meet the case, that guy 100% deserved to die from a Snipe + Camouflaged hunter combo from a Vampire Hunter build!

Still_Mind

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

I dont believe an emp went down like that sorry without proof i call bs. Was probably hit by multiple snipes.

http://s18.postimg.org/p99ahug6x/willkill.png

Already posted this once in the thread, but here you go again.

Single player, 4.5k in under 1 second to an Emperor. 3 hits, would have been more if Willkill hadn't run out of health so fast, lol.

Call bs all you want, but like I said. This happens, and it's not that difficult to replicate.

Sticking your head in the sand and pretending that this is somehow impossible isn't really going to help anything. ZOS doesn't feel that killing a player from 35 meters before they can react is balanced gameplay, and I'm inclined to agree w/ them.

The damage done in this picture is indeed possible in theory, but for one
- it requieres you to use the archerminds 5 set pcs.
- it requieres you to use Flawless Dawnbreaker and Mark Target as dmg pump up.
- it requieres Camouflaged Hunter (+ fighters guild passives) and your target must be a Vampire
- it requieres you to pretty much softcap stamina and get close to weapon power hardcap.

But you see there is only one big issue with this picture, you are going to tell us the Emperor (which was a DK by the way), the guy that scored 10x more points than our average Joes got himself hit by a Snipe while marked in a 1vs1 scenario? Sounds pretty unbelievable to me.

In PvP any good player will immediatly start to shield stack and/or block, in a 1vs1 scenario, when the Marks even shows up. That's why NBs usualy don't take that skill, because it leaves a big "HELLO! I'M A NB AND I'M GOING TO AMBUSH YOU!" sign on top of your head.

So again, it comes to the skill of a player and his general knowledge of the game.
- if he didn't noticed the Piercing Mark
- if he didn't heard the "fssshhh" noise from the Snipe
- if he is a vampire

If all those points meet the case, that guy 100% deserved to die from a Snipe + Camouflaged hunter combo from a Vampire Hunter build!

I fully agree with what you're saying, but I think the guy's point was the raw damage potential.

Varicite

Still_Mind wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

I dont believe an emp went down like that sorry without proof i call bs. Was probably hit by multiple snipes.

http://s18.postimg.org/p99ahug6x/willkill.png

Already posted this once in the thread, but here you go again.

Single player, 4.5k in under 1 second to an Emperor. 3 hits, would have been more if Willkill hadn't run out of health so fast, lol.

Call bs all you want, but like I said. This happens, and it's not that difficult to replicate.

Sticking your head in the sand and pretending that this is somehow impossible isn't really going to help anything. ZOS doesn't feel that killing a player from 35 meters before they can react is balanced gameplay, and I'm inclined to agree w/ them.

The damage done in this picture is indeed possible in theory, but for one
- it requieres you to use the archerminds 5 set pcs.
- it requieres you to use Flawless Dawnbreaker and Mark Target as dmg pump up.
- it requieres Camouflaged Hunter (+ fighters guild passives) and your target must be a Vampire
- it requieres you to pretty much softcap stamina and get close to weapon power hardcap.

But you see there is only one big issue with this picture, you are going to tell us the Emperor (which was a DK by the way), the guy that scored 10x more points than our average Joes got himself hit by a Snipe while marked in a 1vs1 scenario? Sounds pretty unbelievable to me.

In PvP any good player will immediatly start to shield stack and/or block, in a 1vs1 scenario, when the Marks even shows up. That's why NBs usualy don't take that skill, because it leaves a big "HELLO! I'M A NB AND I'M GOING TO AMBUSH YOU!" sign on top of your head.

So again, it comes to the skill of a player and his general knowledge of the game.
- if he didn't noticed the Piercing Mark
- if he didn't heard the "fssshhh" noise from the Snipe
- if he is a vampire

If all those points meet the case, that guy 100% deserved to die from a Snipe + Camouflaged hunter combo from a Vampire Hunter build!

I fully agree with what you're saying, but I think the guy's point was the raw damage potential.

Well, that was my point.

But you can also see from the pic that:

1) The Emp (whom I know is a DK, btw) took 4.4k damage in less than 1 second, so it's just possible that he may have not had the time to react to the stealth gank that happened to him.

2) Yes, he's a vamp, but you might also notice that there was no Venom or heavy attack in the log, which is the popular combo. It would easily have been for much more damage if it had been the entire combo.

In 1.5, you won't be able to pull off the current combo, but you can certainly do a double Snipe, which would kill most players if they were buffed like this anyway.

The point is that it doesn't matter how much setup beforehand that goes into creating a situation where you can kill a player in under a second w/out them reacting.

You should not be able to kill people w/out them reasonably having the chance to fight back, that's why we have things like CC immunity (ps. fix unbreakable cc, thx) in the game.

TehMagnus

"Nerfing Stealth Sneak Attack As It Will Destroy Bow Attacks"

GOOD! As much as zerging sucks, having a bunch of sneaky people just trying to 4 shot other players then hiding/running away is also a sucky playstyle.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Varicite wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

I dont believe an emp went down like that sorry without proof i call bs. Was probably hit by multiple snipes.

http://s18.postimg.org/p99ahug6x/willkill.png

Already posted this once in the thread, but here you go again.

Single player, 4.5k in under 1 second to an Emperor. 3 hits, would have been more if Willkill hadn't run out of health so fast, lol.

Call bs all you want, but like I said. This happens, and it's not that difficult to replicate.

Sticking your head in the sand and pretending that this is somehow impossible isn't really going to help anything. ZOS doesn't feel that killing a player from 35 meters before they can react is balanced gameplay, and I'm inclined to agree w/ them.

The damage done in this picture is indeed possible in theory, but for one
- it requieres you to use the archerminds 5 set pcs.
- it requieres you to use Flawless Dawnbreaker and Mark Target as dmg pump up.
- it requieres Camouflaged Hunter (+ fighters guild passives) and your target must be a Vampire
- it requieres you to pretty much softcap stamina and get close to weapon power hardcap.

But you see there is only one big issue with this picture, you are going to tell us the Emperor (which was a DK by the way), the guy that scored 10x more points than our average Joes got himself hit by a Snipe while marked in a 1vs1 scenario? Sounds pretty unbelievable to me.

In PvP any good player will immediatly start to shield stack and/or block, in a 1vs1 scenario, when the Marks even shows up. That's why NBs usualy don't take that skill, because it leaves a big "HELLO! I'M A NB AND I'M GOING TO AMBUSH YOU!" sign on top of your head.

So again, it comes to the skill of a player and his general knowledge of the game.
- if he didn't noticed the Piercing Mark
- if he didn't heard the "fssshhh" noise from the Snipe
- if he is a vampire

If all those points meet the case, that guy 100% deserved to die from a Snipe + Camouflaged hunter combo from a Vampire Hunter build!

I fully agree with what you're saying, but I think the guy's point was the raw damage potential.

Well, that was my point.

But you can also see from the pic that:

1) The Emp (whom I know is a DK, btw) took 4.4k damage in less than 1 second, so it's just possible that he may have not had the time to react to the stealth gank that happened to him.

2) Yes, he's a vamp, but you might also notice that there was no Venom or heavy attack in the log, which is the popular combo. It would easily have been for much more damage if it had been the entire combo.

In 1.5, you won't be able to pull off the current combo, but you can certainly do a double Snipe, which would kill most players if they were buffed like this anyway.

The point is that it doesn't matter how much setup beforehand that goes into creating a situation where you can kill a player in under a second w/out them reacting.

You should not be able to kill people w/out them reasonably having the chance to fight back, that's why we have things like CC immunity (ps. fix unbreakable cc, thx) in the game.

I understand people shouldn't die in less than a second but there are much better ways to fix this issue that doesn't involve nerfing stealth damage.

The highest priority would have been to fix Impenetrable and change it so that it reduces the critical damage portion of a skill instead of reducing the critical chance with the same current value on live.

That change alone would have nerfed stealth attacks from gankers by a very similar value to the current nerf on PTS, it would actualy have made critical chance get a more significative role in PvP, it would have fixed the whole issue around sorcerers needing to shield stack to get any surviability at all, and most of all, it doesn't involve creating a whole new line of script just to separate a single effect into two from PvE and PvP (WoW and GW2 are having a lot of trouble with that too)

And please, to anyone else reading this, don't tell me Impenetrable is fine... Nothing is fine when it can completely shut down a stat that requieres people to invest all their itemisation around it to work for so little investment in counterpart. If you fear some abilities might become to strong in PvP (aka : Critical Surge) just ask for more dispelling abilities in return, it will prevent that ability from getting OP and at the same time fix shield stacking and reflective scale spam fest for good.

We got enough Pappers and Scissors, we just need more Rocks!

Varicite

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

I dont believe an emp went down like that sorry without proof i call bs. Was probably hit by multiple snipes.

http://s18.postimg.org/p99ahug6x/willkill.png

Already posted this once in the thread, but here you go again.

Single player, 4.5k in under 1 second to an Emperor. 3 hits, would have been more if Willkill hadn't run out of health so fast, lol.

Call bs all you want, but like I said. This happens, and it's not that difficult to replicate.

Sticking your head in the sand and pretending that this is somehow impossible isn't really going to help anything. ZOS doesn't feel that killing a player from 35 meters before they can react is balanced gameplay, and I'm inclined to agree w/ them.

The damage done in this picture is indeed possible in theory, but for one
- it requieres you to use the archerminds 5 set pcs.
- it requieres you to use Flawless Dawnbreaker and Mark Target as dmg pump up.
- it requieres Camouflaged Hunter (+ fighters guild passives) and your target must be a Vampire
- it requieres you to pretty much softcap stamina and get close to weapon power hardcap.

But you see there is only one big issue with this picture, you are going to tell us the Emperor (which was a DK by the way), the guy that scored 10x more points than our average Joes got himself hit by a Snipe while marked in a 1vs1 scenario? Sounds pretty unbelievable to me.

In PvP any good player will immediatly start to shield stack and/or block, in a 1vs1 scenario, when the Marks even shows up. That's why NBs usualy don't take that skill, because it leaves a big "HELLO! I'M A NB AND I'M GOING TO AMBUSH YOU!" sign on top of your head.

So again, it comes to the skill of a player and his general knowledge of the game.
- if he didn't noticed the Piercing Mark
- if he didn't heard the "fssshhh" noise from the Snipe
- if he is a vampire

If all those points meet the case, that guy 100% deserved to die from a Snipe + Camouflaged hunter combo from a Vampire Hunter build!

I fully agree with what you're saying, but I think the guy's point was the raw damage potential.

Well, that was my point.

But you can also see from the pic that:

1) The Emp (whom I know is a DK, btw) took 4.4k damage in less than 1 second, so it's just possible that he may have not had the time to react to the stealth gank that happened to him.

2) Yes, he's a vamp, but you might also notice that there was no Venom or heavy attack in the log, which is the popular combo. It would easily have been for much more damage if it had been the entire combo.

In 1.5, you won't be able to pull off the current combo, but you can certainly do a double Snipe, which would kill most players if they were buffed like this anyway.

The point is that it doesn't matter how much setup beforehand that goes into creating a situation where you can kill a player in under a second w/out them reacting.

You should not be able to kill people w/out them reasonably having the chance to fight back, that's why we have things like CC immunity (ps. fix unbreakable cc, thx) in the game.

I understand people shouldn't die in less than a second but there are much better ways to fix this issue that doesn't involve nerfing stealth damage.

The highest priority would have been to fix Impenetrable and change it so that it reduces the critical damage portion of a skill instead of reducing the critical chance with the same current value on live.

That change alone would have nerfed stealth attacks from gankers by a very similar value to the current nerf on PTS, it would actualy have made critical chance get a more significative role in PvP, it would have fixed the whole issue around sorcerers needing to shield stack to get any surviability at all, and most of all, it doesn't involve creating a whole new line of script just to separate a single effect into two from PvE and PvP (WoW and GW2 are having a lot of trouble with that too)

And please, to anyone else reading this, don't tell me Impenetrable is fine... Nothing is fine when it can completely shut down a stat that requieres people to invest all their itemisation around it to work for so little investment in counterpart. If you fear some abilities might become to strong in PvP (aka : Critical Surge) just ask for more dispelling abilities in return, it will prevent that ability from getting OP and at the same time fix shield stacking and reflective scale spam fest for good.

We got enough Pappers and Scissors, we just need more Rocks!

I actually agree w/ this, and have said to change Impen to crit damage reduction for a very long time. : P

But then you'd still run into the issue of "if it's not Impenetrable, don't wear it for PvP" causing many of the dropped sets to feel inferior.

Still_Mind

Varicite wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

I dont believe an emp went down like that sorry without proof i call bs. Was probably hit by multiple snipes.

http://s18.postimg.org/p99ahug6x/willkill.png

Already posted this once in the thread, but here you go again.

Single player, 4.5k in under 1 second to an Emperor. 3 hits, would have been more if Willkill hadn't run out of health so fast, lol.

Call bs all you want, but like I said. This happens, and it's not that difficult to replicate.

Sticking your head in the sand and pretending that this is somehow impossible isn't really going to help anything. ZOS doesn't feel that killing a player from 35 meters before they can react is balanced gameplay, and I'm inclined to agree w/ them.

The damage done in this picture is indeed possible in theory, but for one
- it requieres you to use the archerminds 5 set pcs.
- it requieres you to use Flawless Dawnbreaker and Mark Target as dmg pump up.
- it requieres Camouflaged Hunter (+ fighters guild passives) and your target must be a Vampire
- it requieres you to pretty much softcap stamina and get close to weapon power hardcap.

But you see there is only one big issue with this picture, you are going to tell us the Emperor (which was a DK by the way), the guy that scored 10x more points than our average Joes got himself hit by a Snipe while marked in a 1vs1 scenario? Sounds pretty unbelievable to me.

In PvP any good player will immediatly start to shield stack and/or block, in a 1vs1 scenario, when the Marks even shows up. That's why NBs usualy don't take that skill, because it leaves a big "HELLO! I'M A NB AND I'M GOING TO AMBUSH YOU!" sign on top of your head.

So again, it comes to the skill of a player and his general knowledge of the game.
- if he didn't noticed the Piercing Mark
- if he didn't heard the "fssshhh" noise from the Snipe
- if he is a vampire

If all those points meet the case, that guy 100% deserved to die from a Snipe + Camouflaged hunter combo from a Vampire Hunter build!

I fully agree with what you're saying, but I think the guy's point was the raw damage potential.

Well, that was my point.

But you can also see from the pic that:

1) The Emp (whom I know is a DK, btw) took 4.4k damage in less than 1 second, so it's just possible that he may have not had the time to react to the stealth gank that happened to him.

2) Yes, he's a vamp, but you might also notice that there was no Venom or heavy attack in the log, which is the popular combo. It would easily have been for much more damage if it had been the entire combo.

In 1.5, you won't be able to pull off the current combo, but you can certainly do a double Snipe, which would kill most players if they were buffed like this anyway.

The point is that it doesn't matter how much setup beforehand that goes into creating a situation where you can kill a player in under a second w/out them reacting.

You should not be able to kill people w/out them reasonably having the chance to fight back, that's why we have things like CC immunity (ps. fix unbreakable cc, thx) in the game.

I understand people shouldn't die in less than a second but there are much better ways to fix this issue that doesn't involve nerfing stealth damage.

The highest priority would have been to fix Impenetrable and change it so that it reduces the critical damage portion of a skill instead of reducing the critical chance with the same current value on live.

That change alone would have nerfed stealth attacks from gankers by a very similar value to the current nerf on PTS, it would actualy have made critical chance get a more significative role in PvP, it would have fixed the whole issue around sorcerers needing to shield stack to get any surviability at all, and most of all, it doesn't involve creating a whole new line of script just to separate a single effect into two from PvE and PvP (WoW and GW2 are having a lot of trouble with that too)

And please, to anyone else reading this, don't tell me Impenetrable is fine... Nothing is fine when it can completely shut down a stat that requieres people to invest all their itemisation around it to work for so little investment in counterpart. If you fear some abilities might become to strong in PvP (aka : Critical Surge) just ask for more dispelling abilities in return, it will prevent that ability from getting OP and at the same time fix shield stacking and reflective scale spam fest for good.

We got enough Pappers and Scissors, we just need more Rocks!

I actually agree w/ this, and have said to change Impen to crit damage reduction for a very long time. : P

But then you'd still run into the issue of "if it's not Impenetrable, don't wear it for PvP" causing many of the dropped sets to feel inferior.

... And yet so many still prefer to run martial knowledge and warlock and succeed...

Not even mentioning the broken Twin Sisters which people would still use, even if it weren't Impenetrable.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Varicite wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

I dont believe an emp went down like that sorry without proof i call bs. Was probably hit by multiple snipes.

http://s18.postimg.org/p99ahug6x/willkill.png

Already posted this once in the thread, but here you go again.

Single player, 4.5k in under 1 second to an Emperor. 3 hits, would have been more if Willkill hadn't run out of health so fast, lol.

Call bs all you want, but like I said. This happens, and it's not that difficult to replicate.

Sticking your head in the sand and pretending that this is somehow impossible isn't really going to help anything. ZOS doesn't feel that killing a player from 35 meters before they can react is balanced gameplay, and I'm inclined to agree w/ them.

The damage done in this picture is indeed possible in theory, but for one
- it requieres you to use the archerminds 5 set pcs.
- it requieres you to use Flawless Dawnbreaker and Mark Target as dmg pump up.
- it requieres Camouflaged Hunter (+ fighters guild passives) and your target must be a Vampire
- it requieres you to pretty much softcap stamina and get close to weapon power hardcap.

But you see there is only one big issue with this picture, you are going to tell us the Emperor (which was a DK by the way), the guy that scored 10x more points than our average Joes got himself hit by a Snipe while marked in a 1vs1 scenario? Sounds pretty unbelievable to me.

In PvP any good player will immediatly start to shield stack and/or block, in a 1vs1 scenario, when the Marks even shows up. That's why NBs usualy don't take that skill, because it leaves a big "HELLO! I'M A NB AND I'M GOING TO AMBUSH YOU!" sign on top of your head.

So again, it comes to the skill of a player and his general knowledge of the game.
- if he didn't noticed the Piercing Mark
- if he didn't heard the "fssshhh" noise from the Snipe
- if he is a vampire

If all those points meet the case, that guy 100% deserved to die from a Snipe + Camouflaged hunter combo from a Vampire Hunter build!

I fully agree with what you're saying, but I think the guy's point was the raw damage potential.

Well, that was my point.

But you can also see from the pic that:

1) The Emp (whom I know is a DK, btw) took 4.4k damage in less than 1 second, so it's just possible that he may have not had the time to react to the stealth gank that happened to him.

2) Yes, he's a vamp, but you might also notice that there was no Venom or heavy attack in the log, which is the popular combo. It would easily have been for much more damage if it had been the entire combo.

In 1.5, you won't be able to pull off the current combo, but you can certainly do a double Snipe, which would kill most players if they were buffed like this anyway.

The point is that it doesn't matter how much setup beforehand that goes into creating a situation where you can kill a player in under a second w/out them reacting.

You should not be able to kill people w/out them reasonably having the chance to fight back, that's why we have things like CC immunity (ps. fix unbreakable cc, thx) in the game.

I understand people shouldn't die in less than a second but there are much better ways to fix this issue that doesn't involve nerfing stealth damage.

The highest priority would have been to fix Impenetrable and change it so that it reduces the critical damage portion of a skill instead of reducing the critical chance with the same current value on live.

That change alone would have nerfed stealth attacks from gankers by a very similar value to the current nerf on PTS, it would actualy have made critical chance get a more significative role in PvP, it would have fixed the whole issue around sorcerers needing to shield stack to get any surviability at all, and most of all, it doesn't involve creating a whole new line of script just to separate a single effect into two from PvE and PvP (WoW and GW2 are having a lot of trouble with that too)

And please, to anyone else reading this, don't tell me Impenetrable is fine... Nothing is fine when it can completely shut down a stat that requieres people to invest all their itemisation around it to work for so little investment in counterpart. If you fear some abilities might become to strong in PvP (aka : Critical Surge) just ask for more dispelling abilities in return, it will prevent that ability from getting OP and at the same time fix shield stacking and reflective scale spam fest for good.

We got enough Pappers and Scissors, we just need more Rocks!

I actually agree w/ this, and have said to change Impen to crit damage reduction for a very long time. : P

But then you'd still run into the issue of "if it's not Impenetrable, don't wear it for PvP" causing many of the dropped sets to feel inferior.

It is a very valid concern, but I there are also solutions for this.

Zenimax could give, for instance, crafters a more significant role by allowing those who master a profession to switch traits from any weapons or armour depending on that profession. I would personnaly recommend to add an option in the trading interface so that crafters can actualy make transactions out of trait switches and another at the crafting tables so that crafters can actualy switch their own traits.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Well, you seem to be looking at each of these changes in a vacuum, as though they exist separately from the buffs in other areas to the weapons.

Overall, the changes come out to a dps increase for each of the stamina dps weapons, though you're right, the burst was curbed for good reason.

Your complaint about shield stacking; are you saying that w/out your burst you simply can't win a fight against any other player or something? I mean, shield stacking is something that every build has to deal w/, stam isn't somehow worse off for this.

Killing them w/out their ability to fight back at all was never intended and it constantly surprises me (I know, it shouldn't) when people think that everyone's just gonna be cool w/ just being able to be killed in 2 seconds by someone at 35 meters that they never had a chance to react to.

And yes, that does happen.

The weapon skills I use are all getting nerfed. Bows are getting nerfed, I'm undecided on 2 handed.

So, killing from burst is not intended, shield stacking is fine. I can react to shield stacking, although there's nothing I can do about shield stacking.

I really don't get what your point is here.

They hit shield stacking too. Know how many who abused harness magicka have complained about the multitude of changes to it? That skill now does nothing vs physical damage.

Suru

At least if you want super sneak bonus's, it makes khajiits and the wood elfs a more considerable choice, if thats how you want to play.

Spangla

This has destroyed the ambush skill - ZOS you are incompetent idiots. You cant fix a snipe problem by introducing a blanket nerf to all stealth openers. dear god who makes these decisions

Still_Mind

Spangla wrote: »

This has destroyed the ambush skill - ZOS you are incompetent idiots. You cant fix a snipe problem by introducing a blanket nerf to all stealth openers. dear god who makes these decisions

Ambush was never the main source of gank damage. It was a gank opener. The main damage comes from ambush and martial knowledge damage modifiers for a hard-hitting followup, plus other stuff.

GreyBrow

Soooooooo much QQ over stam/bow! It already hits for 2k+ out of sneak... stop begging for buffs when you need a nerf. Its getting REALLY old.

GreyBrow

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Zos have continually dropped the ball with stam/stealth types builds. For those who say "adapt", have you considered that some don't want to play this game if they have to use magicka skills? Just putting it out there for something to epxand your mind a little.

To be honest I'm annoyed at myself for playing this game for 6 months, hell it never looked like getting better. This nerf clearly demonstrates Zos' intention.

I like weapons, and due to this I'm out, I will not be investing.

Just to prove it, I took my sorc, threw on 4 hundings rage 4 twilight, grabbed a bow and dual wield, and pulled 1.2k dps (without evil hunter or wep power pots) consistently within the first 10 minutes of using stamina.

That's MORE DPS than my sorc gets using his crushing shock rotation.

Dual Wield is level 30, Bow is level 18, Medium Armor is level 34.

STOP QQing so much.

The issue isn't about stam builds or skills or anything else, its about QQ and your lack of l2p.

Sustainability? Yeah magicka users have that same problem... you know how they solve it? Potions and Spell symmetry.

OH, no spell symmetry? oh god what can you do? Wait... what's that? Spell symmetry is basically a mechanic that is used to drain the healer's magicka and give it to the DPS?

Damn... if only templars had a similar mechanic that they could use on stamina users....

OH WAIT. SHARDS!

Shards restores a TON of stamina, and it doesn't even tap your health for you to use it! wow! imagine that! and since picking up shards has no cast time, its NOT A DPS LOSS

The disparity between stamina and magicka isn't in the game code, its because of the user. Apparently, the average stamina user is an idiot and knows nothing about light attack weaving or animation canceling, so they come here to the forums and QQQQQ all day and night until they get buffed through the roof.

Maybe i'll throw on 5 piece warlock with magicka recovery enchants and 5 piece seducer and come here and QQ that my destro staff dps sorc is only getting 600 dps, and get all my buddies to QQ as well and beg for buffs.

seriously, l2p already.

capcody

i do just as much damage as a night blade does and im a dk .. yes a dk bow user.. and the stealth attack nerf is needed. i my self play a glass canon bow user. and i can agree the damage is just to high for a opener.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

GreyBrow wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Zos have continually dropped the ball with stam/stealth types builds. For those who say "adapt", have you considered that some don't want to play this game if they have to use magicka skills? Just putting it out there for something to epxand your mind a little.

To be honest I'm annoyed at myself for playing this game for 6 months, hell it never looked like getting better. This nerf clearly demonstrates Zos' intention.

I like weapons, and due to this I'm out, I will not be investing.

Just to prove it, I took my sorc, threw on 4 hundings rage 4 twilight, grabbed a bow and dual wield, and pulled 1.2k dps (without evil hunter or wep power pots) consistently within the first 10 minutes of using stamina.

That's MORE DPS than my sorc gets using his crushing shock rotation.

Dual Wield is level 30, Bow is level 18, Medium Armor is level 34.

Oh realy? Can you tell me, just out of curiosity, what rotation you were using, which target did you tested your rotation on and how much weapon power and stamina you had?

GreyBrow wrote: »

STOP QQing so much.

The issue isn't about stam builds or skills or anything else, its about QQ and your lack of l2p.

Nope, you are wrong, there is currently a real issue between stamina and magicka builds. Magicka deals way more damage, has more defense and more sustain over stamina builds.

GreyBrow wrote: »

Sustainability? Yeah magicka users have that same problem... you know how they solve it? Potions and Spell symmetry.

Nope, good magicka builds don't rely on potions and spell symmetry. They use syphon spirit to get back 4% magicka each time they use a Light Attack + Crushing Force (weaving). Potions are there to boost spell damage and spell critical chance (the magicka regen is just an extra) and spell symmetry is rarely used at all because most of the time you don't need the magicka burst and it actualy reduces your overall dps.

GreyBrow wrote: »

Damn... if only templars had a similar mechanic that they could use on stamina users....

OH WAIT. SHARDS!

Shards restores a TON of stamina, and it doesn't even tap your health for you to use it! wow! imagine that! and since picking up shards has no cast time, its NOT A DPS LOSS

Not everyone plays a templar, and the stamina recovery only happens on the synergy, which the templar can not use... That's a reason a single templar can be very valuable for trials because they are the only class that help you build back your stamina.

But in no way is it a viable tool for a stamina build alone.

GreyBrow wrote: »

The disparity between stamina and magicka isn't in the game code, its because of the user. Apparently, the average stamina user is an idiot and knows nothing about light attack weaving or animation canceling, so they come here to the forums and QQQQQ all day and night until they get buffed through the roof.

You sir are rude and completely out of your league... The usual Dps a stamina build can have with a Bow or Dualwield runs around 800-900 with attack weaving, the classic Crushing Force build runs easely between 1100-1200 and thats without including the fact you'll have a much easier time sustaining your magicka in longer fights compared to stamina builds.

GreyBrow wrote: »

Maybe i'll throw on 5 piece warlock with magicka recovery enchants and 5 piece seducer and come here and QQ that my destro staff dps sorc is only getting 600 dps, and get all my buddies to QQ as well and beg for buffs.

seriously, l2p already.

Seriously man, get yourself a grip... you are not helping anyone by whining and expressing your biased oppinion on something you clearly haven't tested.